Repertoire: Tough Symphonists (3)--Pettersson, Hartmann and Enescu

[@thomascampbell127]

I was in the car riding home from Syracuse after a family reunion. For whatever reason I wanted some Pettersson to accompany my long, dark (literally) ride home. I listened to the 7th Symphony and never looked back. Loved Pettersson ever since. No I did not subject my family to this my headphones kept a barrier between them and the music.

[@fred6904]

All of the 15 symphonies are great!! Welcome in the club! 🇸🇪🎶👋

[@HassoBenSoba]

Wow..this was a very substantial episode. Hartmann's symphonies are tough, but exhilarating, and the Metzmacher set is great. ENESCU--- the First Symphony is a lovely, late Romantic work but, the 2nd...as you aptly described, is truly one-of-a-kind...as frustrating as it is fascinating. Ideas come and go so quickly, often buried in decorative, never-ending flourishes that change so rapidly it's impossible to keep up. The finale begins simply with two offstage military drums, begins to build, but becomes SO maddeningly complex and unfocused that it's impossible for any conductor/orchestra to really delineate the complex textures (at the point you started in the finale, there's a nearly virtuoso Piano part that's almost entirely inaudible). But it's still MESMERIZING music in its strangeness and allure. I like the Lawrence Foster recordings, and Christian Mandeal's set on Arte Nova helps clarify a lot of the textures (Foster performed the 2nd in Chicago about 20 years ago, but I missed it). As you mentioned, Enescu's opera Oedipe is one of the supreme Masterpieces of the 20th-century, on par to those who know it with Wozzeck. And the Text/libretto helped Enescu curb his orchestra excesses and focus his writing on the drama..and thus, Oedipe has an incredibly powerful emotional impact..right down to the Pistol Shot (!) in the orchestra when the big Reveal in Act 3 occurs. It is a stunning achievement, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the recordings (Lawrence Foster "all-star" version is excellent). I was exploring the possibility of doing Oedipe at Chicago Opera Theater in the late 90's, but could never get the project off the ground. Enescu was, in ways, too brilliant for his own good. Anyone who wants to start a bit cautiously should try the Three Orchestral SUITES [#1 - gorgeous, but with a dud finale, #2 - wonderful Neo-baroque, and #3- "stream-of-consciousness Romanian folk village stuff.. weird but cool!] Sorry for going on..but your spot-on talk really made me step back and think about the Enescu phenomenon. LR

[@sprucescentedschizoid]

Alfred Schnittke and Kalevi Aho are my favorite example of recent tough symphonists, as a possible recommendation for a future talk. Aho specifically is lesser known but has a prestigious reputation as the successor in the line of Finnish composers from Sibelius to Rautavaara to Aho

[@PaulVinonaama]

I would recommend Joonas Kokkonen.

[@richardcaffyn6884]

Great to see you include George Enescu whose music I got to know whilst living in Bucharest many years ago. His 'Sept Chansons de Clement Marot' (op. 15) is a delicate & beautiful orchestral song cycle; another side to a fascinating composer.

[@robkeeleycomposer]

Enescu is a truly miraculous composer, one of the very greatest of the 20th century.

[@jojaspismusic8531]

Didn't know the music of Pettersson. Listening to his 8th know. What a gorgeous music!! Thank you so much for this tip!

[@Muzakman37]

Really glad you're pushing Hartmann cos I've been very interested in his work for some years from the very first time I heard a chunk of the Sinfonia Tragica 1st movement which blew me away, all these musical quotations thrown in & a real mastery of the power & capability of the orchestra with some really very exciting writing for the Brass & Percussion. Also the Tampere Philharmonic & Hannu Lintu are putting out some really knockout recordings aren't they, superbly recorded and really committed, excellent playing from the band and Lintu is very gifted indeed, heard some of his Lutoslawski and some of these Enescu recordings and they just sound so authoritative.

[@johnmarchington3146]

Thanks for another great review, David. I've been collecting the Christian Lindberg BIS recordings of the Pettersson symphonies - I think Nos 3, 8, 10 and 11 are still to be recorded but I have all the others including a No. 16 from 1979 and a fragment from a 17th composed in his final year - and have had the Ingo Metzmacher EMI set of the Hartmann symphonies for some time now and rate it highly. I also have the Lawrence Foster versions of Enescu's remarkable works. However, what we heard of the Hannu Lintu Ondine performances sounded excellent. I will definitely be checking them out. This is a fascinating series, so keep them coming!!

[@theSvarg]

I started listening to classical music about one month ago and since I came across Pettersson's 8th I instantly loved it.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Good for you! A great work!

[@richardwills5780]

These chats are really valuable. Glad you plan to continue them!

[@juandavidramirezquintero4587]

Thank you Dave. Enescu is extraordinary!!! We need a chat about his chamber music. Please.

[@mw6474]

Pettersson's 7th symphony is a great starting point, with a splendid live version by Daniel Harding on KZbin. And don't forget Segerstam's version of the 10th on BIS. It's a hurricane of a performance if you really turn up the volume.

[@massawax]

Will take your suggestion of Sagerstam - Pettersson 10

[@OccamsRazor749]

That selection from the Pettersson Eighth always reminds me of something out of a very twisted Fellini film.

[@cpeters6494]

You mentioned Ferdinand Leitner in your talk, there's a great cd out there with Bruckner's 6th and Hartmann's 6th combined, played by the SWR orchestra, a generous and surprisingly effective coupling of both works in beautiful, idiomatic performances.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes indeed.

[@JohnMassari]

ENESCU!!! Gorgeous!

[@jerelzoltick6900]

Another interesting and sometime "dark" composer was Gosta Nystroem/ I find his Sinfonia Espressiva and Sinfonia Serria very interesting. His Symphonies are very unique. So much interesting music that is not performed that often..at least in this country. As always..best regards..Jerel

[@johns9624]

Definitely my favourite of your several ongoing series. After half a century of exploring musical byways I thought I'd have heard most of your tough symphonists, but there's been at least one I don't know in each episode. You're also inspiring me to give Pettersson another shot. His 7th symphony I've known and quite liked since the Dorati lp was issued, but after that I bought his 2nd and thought it rubbish - a muddy1966 recording by the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra conducted by Stig Westerberg - so decided Pettersson and i weren't made for eachother. Time for a third date, maybe.

[@martinhaub6828]

Enescu is one of the most sadly neglected composers of the 20th C. What an amazing guy: virtuoso violinist as well as pianist, a formidable conductor and composer. Maybe the neglect is the price for being Romanian - his compatriot Pancho Vladigerov is barely known and wrote some wonderful music, too.

[@discipulussimplex]

Amazing he was as you say! Not much of a compatriot for a Bulgarian, though...

[@davidhickey1182]

As did Anatol Vieru

[@carlose.johansson739]

Great to hear this. Like Petersson a lot! Very beautiful and interesting music. (New subscriber).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Welcome aboard!

[@Elvenraad]

There is another Hartmann cycle that's actually very good (maybe even better than the Metzmacher set). It's on Challenge Records and it's conducted by 6 conductors (Metzmacher is one of them).

[@massawax]

Great talk, great piece of musical education. Thank you for your suggestions. The more I listen to more recent symphonic output, including Hartmann and Pettersson the more I sense the strange and powerful influence of Bruckner. I hear it also in Rautavara, Part and Glass. Good old Anton might have been a better teacher and influencer than he was a composer...

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

He was, if not an influence, than a composer who anticipated much modern practice, especially in his "block like" or modular method of construction and effective abandonment of sonata form.

[@massawax]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I would add the use of repetition with minimal changes, the unison blasting tunes as a result of intricate contrapuntal passages and the treatment of rythmical elements that evolve into melodic lines in their own right (6th symphony and Te Deum for instance). Thanks again for stimulating our brains and sensitivity.

[@Sulsfort]

Got the Enescu with BBC / Rozhdestvensky today.

[@Donaldopato]

Love them all! Thanks sir!

[@ammcello]

Love it!!!! Been Hartmann and Enescu loyalist forever. The 2nd Hartmann really is a journey - when it moves it really moves! Enescu is the most neglected of all the greats. I would love a video on his masterly Octet.

[@discipulussimplex]

I would also enjoy a talk involving the Octet!

[@phomchick]

These Tough Symphonists talks are my favorites! One can only listen to so much Mahler, sometimes a bit of salt and pepper is required. I have been familiar with Pettersson and Hartmann for decades, but haven't listened to them for a long time. This talk will fix that. And I don't really know much about Enescu, but this was a wonderful introduction, and I'll be doing some sonic exploring. You have covered some of my favorite composers in this series, can Panufnik and Lutoslawski be far behind?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

One of them, surely not,..

[@davidhickey1182]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I am guessing that would be Panufnik since Lutoslawski is nearly without flaw.

[@johnmarchington3146]

David, how about discussing the Boris Lyatoshynsky symphonies? His third is a real gem.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I have already.

[@johnmarchington3146]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for letting me know. I've only watched the first three episodes but intend watching them all. I don't even know how many parts you've presented so far.

[@lpldl]

Oh, a viola joke! David has joined forces with TwoSet Violin.

[@alanmcginn4796]

Dave. Great talk. I don’t have a lot of stuff relating to these composers. I did see on Amazon music that the compete 7 disc Andreescu Enescu series is available for download for $5.99 a disc, except for vol. 3 which is selling for $3.99. I am going to download the whole series in the morning.

[@alanmcginn4796]

Just finished listening to the Enescu Disc 1 (symphony 1 and study symphony no. 4) with Andreescu. Why isn’t this composer better known? I am very impressed. Gorgeous sound. And not ‘tough’ at all!! In fact very beautiful. Dave. I serious think a full works enescu talk could be great for your listeners!!

[@AlexMadorsky]

Oh boy oh boy, this is the video I desperately wanted but didn’t know that I’d ever get. Some quick thoughts on each of these three gentlemen in the order surveyed: 1. Pettersson was a true genius, a bard of musical misery who does dismal like none other. I have various of the symphonies on old LPs, and whenever I dust them off I am amazed by how much I “enjoy” (although that’s certainly not the right word) these remarkable works. #16 with the Alto Sax is a real knockout. 2. Hartmann deserves to be much better known, a man of real artistic and political integrity and independence. The EMI box is powerfully moving stuff. Symphony No. 2 with an amazing barophone saxitone solo, can be found paired nicely with Mahler 9 on a Dohnanyi/Cleveland Orchestra Decca recording. I may be the only person who ever bought that disc for Hartmann with the Mahler as a mere afterthought. 3. Enescu’s 2nd and 3rd are truly fantastic late Romantic symphonies that deserve to be standard rep. I remember listening to the 2nd, I believe streaming an old Marco Polo recording, on the way home from an eventful early date with the woman I now call my wife. The Noddy box is great. All commenty people are strongly advised to keep on listening to this wonderful music!

[@ddsoco1]

I’ve loved Pettersson’s music for decades. Never not exsanguinating. Those tender, poignant oases of beauty in the middle of all the anguish in his works always remind me of the saying: The great thing about hitting yourself in the head with a hammer is it feels *amazing* when you stop.

[@nicolasr7209]

Would love to hear your thoughts on the symphonies of Valentin Silvestrov.

[@bikerpaul68]

For me they're tough in different ways. Pettersson's symphonies are generally long and loud but I love them. About twenty years ago I bought the Metzmacher set of the Hartmann symphonies because I thought I should listen to them, but I found it impossible. The excerpt you played brought back unhappy memories: directionless note-spinning with the added annoyance of seemingly random xylophone interjections. I might try them again but I doubt it. As for Enescu, I think this kind of meandering musical treacle might be termed "hothouse music" by British critics, although your description of "Richard Strauss on steroids" is also very apt. As it says on alcohol labels in France, "to be consumed in moderation".

[@lesgoe8908]

I am really enjoying this series and look forward to future installments. Would love to hear your thoughts on a couple of tough British symphonists: Robert Simpson and Benjamin Frankel.

[@tonysanderson4031]

I agree with you about Robert Simpson. I don't know about Benjamin Frankel's symphonies. I will check them out.

[@richardcaffyn6884]

Totally agree regarding Robert Simpson. I would add other British symphonists such as Richard Arnell, Havergal Brian, Edmund Rubbra, Alan Rawsthorne & George Lloyd

[@cwm5001]

Don’t forget Kenneth Alwyn.

[@cwm5001]

Thank you, enlightening as always. If you are up for a challenge I would appreciate your subjective guide to today’s living composers, of whom there are so many. How can we identify the composers that will be remembered in, say a hundred years’ time, as comparable to the great masters we recognise today?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but the simple answer is that we can't--it's not for us to decide (and that's probably a good thing).

[@dirkbecker6827]

Thank you so much, David! With this video I discovered Enescu (having discovered the other two composers ever since decades!!). And I cannot stop listening the second Enescu symphony with the new DG recording with Macelaru. I am somehow spellbound! The 3CD set could be worth another talk of you!? By the way: As I have searched for all recordings of Allan Pettersson, I am deeply impressed by the few additions Sergiu Commissiona did; especially his interpretation of the ninth symphony (Philips) is not of this world! Do you know them? (Never on CD)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I will cover it when I receive it (haven't yet). I have all of the Commissiona recordings. I was in Baltimore when he recorded the 8th for DG.

[@frankgyure3154]

I have the Pettersson 6 conducted by Christian Lindbergh. I just started to listen to 6. I have the 9th but will wait. I was surprised to hear that Antal Dorati premiered the 7th in 1967 so I guess Pettetsson has some cred. Of course,it will depends upon the individual listener.

[@Don-md6wn]

I have a disc on ECM that I bought as a sampler of Hartmann and enjoy - the Concerto funebre with Isabelle Faust, plus symphony #4 (for string orchestra) and Kammerkonzert for string orchestra, string quartet and clarinet. Christoph Poppen conducts the Munchener Kammerorchester. The Petersen Quartett and Paul Meyer are the quartet and clarinet soloist in the Kammerkonzert. Dan Davis gave the disc a 10/10 on Classics Today.

[@julianholman7379]

Pettersen lived long enough to have heard ABBA’s ‘Voulez Vous’ album ! What might he have thought of it !?!?

[@122112guru]

i hope you'll profile some of Peter Mennin's later Symphonies in this series,(which i love btw and thnx),esp his 7th,which i also love btw,my fave American Symphony.The Martinon recording.Hey there's an idea,an American symphony series,and i would never have known/learned about the Kurka 2nd but for your vid on it.thanks again.

[@benrlego]

Jakob Lindberg has an excellent BIS CD for John Dowland's Seaven Teares, not sure if you're familar with this but it's the best recording of Dowland I've ever heard. Catalogue number CD-315.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I did a video about it.

[@UlfilasNZ]

I've always wondered why Hartmann isn't more popular - seems to me with the popularity of Shostakovich, Mahler and Berg his popularity would be assured.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

[@colinwrubleski7627]

Wikipedia indicates there is a 16th Pettersson symphony, with a "bravura saxophone part commissioned by Frederick L. Hemke", and apparently there is an incomplete #17 as well. On the other hand, the first symphony does not seem to count in the reckoning--- not sure why (lost-? destroyed-?) -- so should we split the difference and call the total 15.5-?^^

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Good question. I settle on 15 given the dubious No. 1, but you can choose your poison.

[@deehinds2347]

I am new as a subscriber. Have you discussed Joly Braga-Santos?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Yes, several times. There's a whole playlist (you should check out the playlists on my channel home page). Thank you for subscribing, and here's the one you asked about. Have fun! kzbin.info/aero/PLAjIX596BriE3086mkZgOa6Ytv1vAOVdi

[@deehinds2347]

@The Ultimate Classical Music Guide by Dave Hurwitz Thank you, really enjoy your explorations and I have gained a few more composers I like. I watched your 10 dirty secrets of classical music and agreed with 9. I can't find anything discussed on Joaquin Rodrigo, who I think is much more than the Concierto de Aranjuez alone. I also believe that Howard Hanson and Paul Creston need to be better known. I want to say that you are so right, find what you like.

[@joelvalkila]

Here's one idea for the tough symphonists series: Joonas Kokkonen. (I mean, that's tough!)

[@robkeeleycomposer]

I've always been a massive fan of the 4th Symphony - he seems to bring it all together in a concise, perfect 3 movement work. The Cello Concerto is also very fine.

[@joelvalkila]

@@robkeeleycomposer 4th is also my favourite. (Paavo Berglund made a wonderful recording of it.) Then comes 3rd Symphony, Cello Concerto - and the 3rd String Quartet: a fabulous piece.

[@PaulVinonaama]

Kokkonen's 1st may his best (at least to my taste).@@robkeeleycomposer

[@samlaser1975]

We should also credit Hindemith as an influence of Hartmann's music: viz his Symphony 5 sounds somewhat like Hindemith in places but Hartmann was very much his own man..

[@aaronrabushka5688]

Hartmann is one of my great heroes of 20th-century music--passion, color, and counterpoint--he has it all, and shows that it can in fact be done. Beside the symphonies there are two great string quartets, and several concertos. Piano music not so good. I found the Enescu [sic] on a trip to Bucures,ti--sprawling works with their shares of ups and downs. Enescu was always writing a rhapsody whatever it said on the title page.

[@dizwell]

Frank Bridge and Benjamin Britten were viola-ists, too! All the best composers were, it seems!

[@AlexMadorsky]

Hindemith, Walton, Ernest Bloch I believe, lots of great composers.

[@wilhelmberger9925]

wasnt dvorak as well? :)

[@ftumschk]

@@wilhelmberger9925 Yes, he was.

[@pauldavidartistclub6723]

Hartmann was sadly one of those composers who was too traditional for avant-garde-modernist tastemakers in the post-war era, yet far too progressive for listeners looking for another Rachmaninov or Sibelius (not that they didn’t have some advanced sensibilities, but kept in check). Another fine episode Mr. Hurwitz

[@discipulussimplex]

While I was listening to one of Enescu's symphonies some time go - don't remember which, could have been a school symphony - I thought I heard a lot of music resembling the Star Wars score. It may be that John Williams was influenced by, or borrowed from, Enescu's music?

[@stevesincock941]

John Williams is a great pilferer of other composers. Holst Dvorak & Wagner. Sometimes note for note - almost!

[@elizabethj8510]

Add Prokofiev, Battle on Ice transmogrified into Jaws theme.

[@HassoBenSoba]

@@elizabethj8510 Also Honegger...Third Symphony's opening turns up in "Close Encounters". But why try to keep track? You'll just drive yourself nuts. LR

[@elizabethj8510]

@@HassoBenSoba Just one more: Kings Row main theme by--wait for it--Korngold! Reworked as title theme to Star Wars.

[@elizabethj8510]

Thank you for the Pettersson: it was stunning. You put your finger on Korngold, Richard Strauss on steroids. Now I know why I don't enjoy Korngold.

[@jackdomanski6758]

as if Strauss’ music itself wasn’t on steroids lol.