Respectful Response to Layne Norton and Rhonda Patrick

[@EdJacobson77]

Once again Dave is the better man. Polite, calm, no personal attacks. Dave isn't the ambassador that Layne Norton deserves, but he is the ambassador that WE need.

[@nwobob]

I couldn't say it better. Although over the last year I have noted the egregious provocateur behaviour of Norton has mellowed bit. Still not enough for my liking. I still have to turn off his videos about 2 out of 3 times when the screaming gets out of control.

[@jamesalles139]

I don't think I would have bothered to respond to that. I am thankful that someone was able to counter the mis-information.

[@albrackets8446]

Someone needs to read Dr Norton the riot act.

[@robinweikel4292]

Bblvvlavkbvkkvvvvvkkkvkkvkvkvvlvlvlvlvvvlvvlvlvlvvvvvvvlvwlwwllvvvvvvvvvvvlvvllvwl😅😅😅😮😮

[@robinweikel4292]

Basaa s

[@szghasem]

Dave, what I really appreciate about your approach is the humility and respect you bring to the conversation. Unlike Layne Norton’s pretentious style, you focus on educating us without dictating. After years of discovering how much misinformation we’ve been fed about metabolic health, it’s refreshing to hear from someone who genuinely respects our intelligence.

[@cynthiaproffitt8326]

Such a thoughtful, kind response. I am a LMHR with an LDL of 358. That number is concerning to me and I will cautiously hold onto hope that I will be alright as I continue to practice my Ketovore way of life. Your research is appreciated!

[@kyriosgab7854]

You are concerned because of all the dogma created, all the manipulation and corruption around cholesterol. Make your research and learn the reality

[@lamondaforestry]

​@@kyriosgab7854or dying trying

[@cynthiaproffitt8326]

@@kyriosgab7854 , I would have to agree.

[@rumproast5159]

@@kyriosgab7854You are so correct. My cholesterol has alway been high. My doctor keeps telling me I should have had a heart attack years ago. I will not take statins. Well at 69 I had a CAC. It was 11. He was floored as this number and told me it was lower than his. And he takes statins. I am now 74, maintain my same low carb eating habits and relish listening to these great new young researchers that tell me what I’ve been doing is actually correct. Dr Atkins also knew what he was talking about and he was mocked. BTW my LDL last reading was 397. The lower my carbs the higher it goes.

[@Maintain_Decorum]

Check out Nick Norwitz review of the recently published data. It’s encouraging that we (LMHRs) are NOT at higher risk for CVD. 🎉

[@firstchoicefarm7767]

It's wonderful to see scientist actually having curiosity and a desire to learn. I think we currently are raising too many scientist in this country who are lacking this important quality.

[@BeefNEggs057]

Not scientists. Propagandists.

[@FC-PeakVersatility]

Curiosity is being stifled from a very young age. I'd say kindergarten onwards. So much of our knowledge is being hidden, even destroyed, to the benefit of the corporations and conglomerates.

[@Cenot4ph]

😂 you call lame Norton a scientist? Were in a field of giant corruption and nutritional sciences as a whole is not science, it is corruption

[@debbiewassel3005]

I just saw the PA at my cardiologist’s office yesterday and brought your newly published paper for her to read. She was very appreciative of this. Hopefully we can get the word out and educate more physicians and healthcare providers regarding the lean mass hyper responder and their response to a low-carb diet. No statin for me even though I’m a LMHR. Thank goodness for her and Dr J having an open mind.

[@dr.julia-heyakarcic8862]

Congratulations on having been published!🎉

[@EdJacobson77]

"You can literally draw a straight line through the amount of LDL exposure and the risk for heart disease." In fact, you can literally draw a literally straight line through literally any scatterplot. What matters is the r-squared value for that line. In the case of Mendelian randomization and CHD, it's piss poor.

[@peterwilson1038]

I ate a mixed diet all my life and at the age of 53 i got a CAC scan and it was 25. I then went OMAD and carnivore ( steak, sardines, eggs and milk ) my LDL went through the roof. After 2 years of this very high LDL i got another CAC scan and my score was still 25. So my atherosclerosis did not progress inspite of my very high LDL. Much to the astonishment and frustration of my doctor.

[@jobrown8146]

Thank you for sharing this. My LDL went up after going low carb. After 1 year I had no plaque so I have a benchmark thankfully. It's been 2 years since my last CTA with contrast.

[@tomgoff7887]

CAC only measures calcified plaque. Uncalclifed plaque is the more dangerous. A CTA test will measure total plaque.

[@jobrown8146]

@@tomgoff7887 Is the CTA where they do a scan without the dye and then inject the dye?

[@tomgoff7887]

@@jobrown8146 Yes, they use a dye unfortunately. As do advanced techniques like IVUS. There are other options like MRI, PET and SPECT but these involve radiation exposure. They are all expensive and you'd need to consult a specialist about which is the best option.

[@davidgifford8112]

@@tomgoff7887It needs to be the latest high resolution CT scanners to assess plaque, soft and calcified.

[@Beefsupreme63]

Trouble is these people will never admit they are wrong. Ignore them.

[@DrAJ_LatinAmerica]

There is still no proof anyone is right or wrong. Things are in process but will be 50 years before we have yes / no proof and for who, how to apply and when. At this time. No one has proof, meaning no one has a long term RCT. No one.

[@markcampbell6249]

These people are so far down the Lipid Heart Hypothesis path that they have no choice but they have no choice to continue it's defense. Backing down now, and considering alternative theories, would be a blow to their ego.

[@elhant4994]

But they did. People are stubborn, and moving status quo takes time and patience. And considering their influence, ignoring them is just unwise.

[@DrAJ_LatinAmerica]

@@markcampbell6249 right 👍. We must all admit we don't know. We must all admit we don't have the answers at this time and mayo, just maybe in 50 yrs we might have a better guess. Why only a guess? Because no one is allowed to conduct or fund the real studies (humans in cages / rooms under lock and key for control). We still don't have legal proof smoking "causes" cancer but the "association" is extremely high. Yet no one cares about our feelings or association.

[@RobbWolfVideos]

We cannot ignore them as (with respect) folks just like you will ask thorny questions based upon claims made. And it’s honestly part of the scientific process one must sign up for in these circumstances.

[@Rocketscientist66]

I‘m astounded Dave again and again, how diplomatic and professional you remain. You never stray into a disrespectful dialog with folks who try to disway the masses from a Low Carb, Ketogenic lifestyle. Much appreciation to you and your team 🙏 Your combined work is sooooo important! Have a wonderful weekend 😎

[@nomames7123]

Because why in your right mind do you think that eliminating foods that you like is the key to health? I mean seriously, fruit, fiberous grains, that's bad for you?

[@Rocketscientist66]

@@nomames7123 Yep!

[@nomames7123]

@@Rocketscientist66 it’s not

[@Rocketscientist66]

@@nomames7123 Interesting that YOU know what‘s good or not good for me. You do you and I‘ll do me.

[@biodivers5294]

You're delivering facts instead of opinions 👍👏

[@willemvanriet7160]

Since going keto my LDL has shot up but my HDL is always 3x higher and I’m healthier and stronger now in my 50s than I was in my 20s

[@kostar500]

I think what you are experiencing and feeling is more important than figures on a blood test.

[@jobrown8146]

Me too. My LDL went up a lot after changing to low carb and now at my (almost) ideal weight but not an LMHR.

[@jobrown8146]

@@kostar500 I agree. If I eat the wrong food/s I start to feel worse. Even _if_ it turns out that high LDL is an issue, I would much rather quality over quantity. I've had a CTA with contrast of zero, so I have a benchmark.

[@nomames7123]

@@kostar500 that’s absolutely ridiculous. That’s like saying I trust anecdote more than the evidence.

[@zoltangaal1842]

Hi Dave, It’s difficult to discuss things with influencers. They earn a living by arguing the hell out of everyone. They always know better.

[@btudrus]

It's difficult to discuss with idiots...

[@ClassicJukeboxBand]

Yes, you cannot argue with somebody who's income is dependent on the nonsense they spout...

[@uchdrydishere3717]

True, but it’s on both sides. Look at all the “I ate 1,000 pounds of butter in one month!” and “LDL is good for you!” clickbait videos. Those pro-LDL influencers are making money hand over fist. Science must always be our guide, not biased KZbin videos.

[@btudrus]

​@@uchdrydishere3717 “I ate 1,000 pounds of butter in one month!” That would be 16kg a day, no one eats that amount of anything. But 1 pound a day would be perfectly healthy... "“LDL is good for you!”" Which is 100% true. LDL doesn't cause heart diesease!

[@richardb8267]

This Norton guy is part of the problem! He thinks his PHD makes him "the" guy!

[@DanEngell]

Well said. There is definitely a vibe of arrogance rather than curiosity.

[@vickimartin7601]

I agree totally!!! He annoys me.

[@larsnystrom6698]

He just assumes that correlation always means causation! LMHR shows that there's no correlation for metabolicly healthy people. So probably not a cause after all! Layne is somehow missing the point of this research!

[@FC-PeakVersatility]

​@@DanEngell when you have been told the lie often enough, you become oblivious to the truth

[@fox20rps94]

No, people like YOU are part of the problem. Here is the formula: 1 look for information on a topic. 2 find someone who sounds like they know what they are talking about 3 Trust and Listen to them. The big problem is 4- everything this person says is right and every expert who disagrees is wrong, fraudulent, paid by 'big X'. Nearly all the comments reflect this. No nuance just 'dunking' on Layne with insults. If this wasn't the case then the comment section should look more like: "Oh wow that's a good point on why you think his interpretation of the data is wrong" I understand you need to trust people, but choosing to discredit everyone who disagrees in areas with nuance is absurd on its face. Also, maybe listening to the advice of someone with 'biohacking' in their description might not be the best 😬

[@mymetaboliclife]

Once again, Dave, great job explaining what the data is showing, for generating incredibly great data, and keeping it very even keel

[@markleblanc451]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWHQqJV3apWljNksi=GCZ2Ym0yq-eBLWKj Listen to this response from Anthony Chaffee about Laynes response to one of his videos. Layne flashed an RCT on the screen for one of his arguments. Dr Chaffee looked it up and it had nothing to do with the subject at hand but something off the wall. Layne is full of himself.

[@SiriusStarGazer]

I liked how you put him in his place about people bragging about high ldl. I believe most people will be concerned, and is waiting on the outcome on high ldl. I was quite worried and still am about my ldl since i went low carb 8 months ago. I am tweaking my diet , honestly, out of fear, even though my trg are below 50 hdl above 60 and ldl below 200 but close. So I do not know why these people come and open their big mouths and talk when they have NO solid science to back them up, except assumptions. Dave, you are making a gr8 contribution to the health world!

[@StevenSteph]

Thank you for all the work you’ve done. ❤

[@willemvanriet7160]

Lane always tries to obfuscate data and cast doubt He seems to be “bought”

[@nomames7123]

You're being ridiculous. He literally said in that podcast that a good amount of his research studies was funded by the dairy industry. So why would they publish something that goes against their own interests

[@nomames7123]

You're being ridiculous. He literally said in that podcast that a good amount of his research studies was funded by the dairy industry. So why would they publish something that goes against their own interests

[@ItsKamikazeSwede]

Used to be a fan of Layne Norton but stopped listening to anything he has to say long ago. Acts like he knows it all and is in my experience generally not open to new ideas. Also some of his interactions on social media are... interesting, to say the least. Bro is basically a bully with a science degree.

[@growingforwardgroup]

These are my exact thoughts about Layne. I used to respect him, but his arrogance and attitude have turned me off these past few years.

[@jobrown8146]

I appreciate responses like this because it helps me be better able to assess what I am hearing/reading.

[@michaelsliwinski8044]

Class act scientific research versus zealotry and closed mindedness . It is up to each of us to decide where these two individuals reside respectively.

[@fox20rps94]

?? The zealots are in the comments. You can dislike Layne's attitude but you are taking your bias so far as to ignore his citation of research in all of his claims, his willingness to speak of nuance, and his openness about changing his mind on previous stances. A one sided video presentation of disagreement on how to interpret research leads you to conclude that Layne Norton should be entirely discredited? 🤡

[@jeffreypua1981]

congrats on the published paper Dave and for all your work in the metabolic space

[@yavor_zlatanov]

Layne Norton's slef-righteous emotional arrogance, has repulsed me away from his outlandish generalizing approach a long time ago, even before I discovered (that I am a) LMHR. What I'm still failing to grasp is why Dr. Rhonda Patrick, as a serious scientist is not giving more insight into the low-carb science, research and community in her work. I hope she'll come around soon. Thanks for being amicable and humble spokesperson for us, Dave..along with Dr. Nick Norwitz, Dr Soto-Mota, and everyone else involved in this great research!

[@ClassicJukeboxBand]

The problem with science is that is it subject to multiple interpretations...this is why ALL scientists are right about some things, and wrong about some things...nobody who has ever lived is 100 percent correct...nobody.

[@jacebeach8767]

Thanks for such a respectful & professional video

[@StarbaseTx]

I feel for Dave. He gets constant pushback and constant skepticism for trying to shine a light on a specific issue. I really hope that when a conclusion has been reached, the conclusion will indicate that he has been right all along in his thesis. With millions of people considering his thesis on lean mass hyperresponders, if he is found to be incorrect in his thesis he will very quickly become the Ansel Keys of the lipid hypothesis. Fingers are crossed for Dave, let's all hope his hypothesis is correct on the lipid model.

[@FedorBP]

If he is found to be incorrect, he'll probably admit that. Ancel Keys didn't admit any mistakes and suppresed opposing voices. So no, even if he is wrong, he will not be nearly as "evil" as Ancel Keys.

[@PursuitAthleticTV]

Thank you, Dave. You're always the bigger man and this is one more example. I'll say it because no one else has, yet: IMO, Layne is an arrogant, mean-spirited know-it-all. Anyone who has read anything he's said on X, can see it. I have no interest in anything he says, in part, for this reason. And I don't care about his Ph.D., or anything else related. Humility and respect and open-mindedness in how one interacts with others, matter!

[@chuckleezodiac24]

please forgive Dr. Norton. he was viciously bullied as a child and he has been dealing with the emotional issues which resulted from his trauma. he deserves our compassion.

[@richardb8267]

Keep up the great work Dave! Lame Norton is just trying to keep himself relevant.

[@simonwiltshire7089]

Norton would have to show as study (is there one??) that pairs High LDL, High HDL, low TG with Low LDL, High HDL, Low TG to be able to make the claim that he does regarding LDL.

[@markcampbell6249]

I posted the comment yesterday on that reel saying that the "data" he was referencing didn't take into consideration the metabolic health of the individual. The response I received from him was "you obviously don't understand mendelian randomization studies"

[@warringwomenofzion3427]

Funny, I got the same response. 🥴 Thanks for the help, Mr Layne 🤦‍♀️​@@markcampbell6249

[@JMK-vo8pv]

@@markcampbell6249 According to the highly esteemed cardiovascular pathophysiologist, Professor Bart Kay, Mendelian randomization studies carry about as much weight as any other associational/epidemiological studies-absolutely WORTHLESS in proving any cause and effect.

[@btudrus]

@@markcampbell6249 "you obviously don't understand mendelian randomization studies" Yes we do. It is a complete bullshit...

[@markcampbell6249]

@@btudrus He passes them off like their RCT's because he knows the average person isn't going to bother researching the flaws within that methodology.

[@CClikesIT]

Dave Feldman and team - thank you for all that you do! Between you all and Taylor Swift, I've got all of my heart troubles covered 🙃

[@noah4987]

He says you don't feel heart disease until it's knocking on your door. I felt heart disease before I went carnivore. That's one of the major reasons I tried this diet. And I now feel a healthy heart. Kerry from HomesteadHow has a video where he shows all of his medical history and how his congestive heart failure has gone into "spontaneous remission" from it as well. Lame Norton and many others want to continue to bury their head in the sand and fearmonger, and that's much more dangerous than the carnivore diet is.

[@bobo-si3kw]

Doctors tried to get me on statins over 27 years ago, never listened, now at the age of 66, no Meds ever, and doing more Cardio now then when I was younger.

[@warringwomenofzion3427]

Thankful for this video, saved me all those hours of listening to the referenced video 🙌🙌🙌

[@Batwing2465]

Still can't figure out why anybody keeps giving Lame Norton any air time.

[@beginner1991]

Because he is a paid shill and hence the people paying ensure he gets it. But true, should he just be ignored? Don't feed the troll?

[@Jacksonnnnnnnnnnnnn]

​@@beginner1991paid by food companies? Any evidence? Not a layne fan, actually curious

[@fox20rps94]

Because he is highly intelligent, highly qualified, and backs up his claims with research using lots of nuance? This attitude of 'othering' people who disagree with your points is hilarious. Two people way above you in knowledge of nutrition yet you are completely trusting one and not the other 😂 How would YOU know who is right?

[@beginner1991]

@@fox20rps94 You assume they are above my knowledge. Thing is I have a better formal education on the underlying part than both of them. Why do I trust Feldmann? Because it actually makes sense vs the 50 year old lipid-heart bullshit.

[@davidbracewell1674]

Your respectful, cool and rational manner is fabulous.

[@btudrus]

Lame Norton doesn't deserve any respectful response.

[@MeatingWellness]

I appreciate this respectful approach to the conversation. Thanks Dave.

[@AnneMB955]

With LDL of 260 (HDL and trigs in normal range) and past doc wanting me on a statin, it’s info like this that gives me knowledge to decline that medication. Hopefully my high LDL will lead to longevity in my 60s and beyond. Thx Dave for adding your perspective.

[@landdesigner4195]

Thank you for all this hard work Dave!

[@machinotaur]

I've always said Layne Norton is an inspiration to PhD candidates everywhere: if he can do it, so can you!

[@Cragadom]

He’s probably talking about Richard Smith from Keto-Pro (who is awesome (and humble and highly knowledgeable in body metabolism)), regarding the boasting of high LDL. 👌🏼

[@ElizabethMillerTX]

Again, your courtesy and patience will save lives.

[@Michael-pn2ye]

I’m one of the extremely interested people who is looking forward to your findings

[@MyFatAdaptedLife]

Dave, I know you feel compelled to respond to this Lame Norton guy. We get it. But this is Lame Norton. What has he accomplished compared to what you, and Nick and Adrian have accomplished. Last I checked, nothing. He's the most roasted so-called health influencer on YT. Keep up the great work.

[@ClassicJukeboxBand]

Having a degree and a youtube following is not proof of being correct...

[@larsnystrom6698]

What the LMHR data tells us is that LDL-C can increase without causing atherosclerosis, or at least plack. This means that Layne should realize that correlation might not mean causation. That was pretty much the point of this research!

[@peterfaber7124]

It seems that for Mandelian Randomization to work as intended, it is required that LDL-C risk contribution does not depend on other factors. But it does. So that straight line he is talking about, doesn't seem to reflect reality.

[@1timbarrett]

I am looking for a straightforward explanation of Mendelian Randomization… perhaps you can help? 🤔

[@peterfaber7124]

@@1timbarrett I'm no expert. But I'm sure there are videos about it on youtube or you can ask chatGPT to explain it.

[@btudrus]

Mendelian Randomization doesn't work at all. MR can prove there is a causal link. It cannot prove what causes what. It is just a stupid epidemiology. Nothing more.

[@andrewtaylor9799]

The number of fireman scales linearly with the number of fires. That does not mean firemen cause fires. Association is not causation.

[@sarahb.6475]

Thank you Dave.

[@javierreyes8817]

Dr Dave. I am very proud of the level of well-being I have achieved with my carnivorous lifestyle. My LDL is at 450 and I have no worries, because my body and mind tell me that I have never been as well off as I am now.

[@uchdrydishere3717]

Your body and mind won’t tell you if your arteries are blocked. Please get a scan.

[@javierreyes8817]

@uchdrydishere3717 I did. Calcium score 0. But you also have to hear your body. I reversed 5 diseases, my physical and mental energy is exaggeratedly good, my body has generated muscle. My happiness is unmatched.

[@uchdrydishere3717]

@@javierreyes8817 Commendable. My carnivore friend was headed to a very early death from diabetes. I don’t like that his LDL is 350, but on the other hand… he’s still alive, and much healthier than he was.

[@larsnystrom6698]

Even if LDL isn't a cause, there will always be a relation between it and atherosclerosis, assuming that that LDL-C increases from some underlying cause of atherosclerosis. My guess is that diabetes is the most important such cause, and that it does that via changing some of the LDL particles so that the liver can't recognize them. Thus making them staying longer in the blood. This is a typical way of how we get a correlation without a causation. What the LMHR indicates is that high LDL-C has no relation with atherosclerosis when there's no such underlying cause.changing the LDL particles. I.e., when metabolic healthy people has high LDL-C.

[@uchdrydishere3717]

Good explanation. That SEEMS to be the case, but we need more data. High LDL and high blood glucose together is a recipe for early death. That much is extremely clear.

[@gc4175]

I would welcome Layne Norton citing the studies to which he is referring, as the trajectory he implies did not exist in the research I have located. For example, the results of an observational study, used to support the first statin approvals, showed only a .28% increased risk of death for those with the highest vs. lowest levels of cholesterol (0.44% vs. 0.18%; Stamler et al, 1986, Table 4). The above means that 99.56 of those having the highest level of cholesterol (>245 mg/d) did not experience death over the study period. This is compared to the 99.82% of those in the lowest quintile (

[@beautifulgirl219]

THANK YOU! I LOVE people who bring the data and citations. Cheers!

[@fox20rps94]

You can find the citations of studies in his educational and myth busting videos if you are interested. He always cited the research

[@uchdrydishere3717]

Please describe Table 4 in more detail. The 1986 Stamler study shows a VERY strong correlation between total cholesterol and death. “For the entire group aged 35 to 57 years at entry, the age-adjusted risks of CHD death in cholesterol quintiles 2 through 5 (182 to 202, 203 to 220, 221 to 244, and ≥245 mg/dL [4.71 to 5.22, 5.25 to 5.69, 5.72 to 6.31, and ≥6.34 mmol/L]) relative to the lowest quintile were 1.29, 1.73, 2.21, and 3.42.” Risk factor of 3.42 for the group with the highest cholesterol!!

[@Hinz2005]

I love Layne and use his app and have learned so much from him. I also pay attention to the low carb community since I spent so many years there. I actually ended carnivore due to very elevated LDL while very lean. I did my own experiment and added in rice and my LDL plummeted. Since low carb was not in use for mental health or any real concern, I was comfortable adding back in the carbs. However, I want to understand the phenotype in case I ever feel compelled to try LC again. I am 41/F and quite lean. Very high HDL, low Trigs and now high of normal LDL. Anyways, just stopping by to show it is possible to appreciate Layne AND the awesome leaders in the LC community. 😊

[@efsmiley1995]

I hope to see in my lifetime the medical community catch up and honor the facts. Especially following further studies, hopefully, soon to come.

[@Patryk....]

I want more researches who are specialising in the subject talking this.

[@kyriosgab7854]

They are going to see the study and after all the data they are going to say: "Yeah, but it's not enough time (the 5.7 years)" 😂 Always on a defensive perspective and block mindset

[@chuckleezodiac24]

Dave: "Nothing is definite. This is just the first step." All Comments: "Case closed. The Science is settled!"

[@uchdrydishere3717]

Exactly!! People, PLEASE listen to what Dave is actually saying! His THEORY is that LMHRers don’t need to worry about sky high LDL numbers. He’s working on getting data to support that, but it’ll be YEARS before we know if his theory is right or wrong. And you’re betting your lives on it. In the meantime, be careful! Get scans! Do what you can to lower your LDL. NOBODY is saying that an LDL of 500 is safe. Including Feldman.

[@sdjohnston67]

Excellent.

[@steelersman74]

If one is metabolically healthy and has no high markers of inflammation, then a high LDL is a marker of robust health, immunity and longevity 🤗

[@uchdrydishere3717]

All studies show a very strong association between high LDL and high mortality. We don’t yet know if LMHRers are the exception to that rule.

[@buppus]

Where can I find Dr Soto Mota discussing Mendelian randomization as you stated in this video? I have searched everywhere and cannot find anywhere he discusses the nuances you suggest

[@turgayderya1938]

High blood sugar is guilty not LDL

[@kyriosgab7854]

Glycation and oxidation because of an insulin resistance, high carb intake, seed oils, smoking

[@btudrus]

High insulin. High insulin prevents the arteries to heal and causes a real mayhem on all the components of the immune systems - not just LDL particles, but also monocytes/macrophages, fibroblasts, fibrinoges, etc. Atherosclerosis is a diesease which has two major components: 1) endothelial injury, 2) a dysregulation of the healing processes. It is the various parts of the immune systems which don't work as expected but make the damage worse and worse and at the end "clogging" the artery. And the cause is chronically elevated insulin - insulin affects ALL parts of the immune systems...

[@turgayderya1938]

@@btudrus Sugar sticks and plasters to the LDL receptor gates of cells. Unable to enter the cell, LDL remains in the blood and continues to circulate, shrinking in diameter as it circulates. Small diameter LDLs are dangerous.

[@ClassicJukeboxBand]

Not always. High blood sugar, or specifically glucose has NEVER been proven to cause metabolic type diseases in healthy people...sick people, yes.

[@uchdrydishere3717]

@@turgayderya1938 Very intriguing hypothesis. I hope it is studied so we can know for sure.

[@richchong2486]

a great debate to have for health science!

[@livincincy4498]

Thank you

[@L.R.L.]

LDL goes up for some folks, but not all; many stay the same or get lower. There is nothing new here. Without these studies, the LDL issue can't be resolved. Wouldn't science welcome these inquiries? Great professional response, Dave.

[@stingrae789]

The thing is there's nothing to stop Layne and co making the exact same assertion about those of us who are not LMHR and that 'we can't know if we have heart disease coming'. It's still the same assertion, an assertion without any evidence.

[@getalonghome]

You don't have to put the word "respectful" in the title. We can tell. 😊

[@rfbead321]

I couldn't care less what Lame Norton thinks.

[@rfbead321]

Nor Rhonda....

[@karhukoira]

Even if the mendelian randomization studies were done correctly and show that on average in the general population, there is a causal effect of LDL-C on cardiovascular disease, that doesn't show that there is one in the LMHR subpopulation An analogous situation is that even if walking outside in the winter when it is slippery causes broken bones in the general population, it doesn't prove that toddlers get broken bones from walking outside when it is slippery

[@uchdrydishere3717]

They were (done correctly). But LMHRers might be immune to high LDL. Very good analogy.

[@4311446]

Thank you very much sir.

[@bjnet31]

Dave, there's been some discussion about soft plaque vs hard calcium. Your study obviously looked at both. But is there any data about the threat of soft plaque? Thanks for what you do, brother!

[@livincincy4498]

A coronary artery score of Zero does not associate with LDL.

[@beardumaw24]

I dont have much respect for Layne Norton, he is stuck in the old dogma on cholesterol and LDL. New 22 year studie that High Intensity Health goes over shows people with higher healthy LDL have a lower all cause mortality than people with low LDL. As the LDL is critical to a healthy immune system.

[@uchdrydishere3717]

Low LDL is associated with higher mortality only because of cachexia. Your LDL plummets when you have a terminal illness. When you take cachexia out of the equation, there is a very clear and strong association between LDL and risk of death. Lean mass hyper responders might-or might not-be the exception to that rule. We need more data to determine that.

[@willemvanriet7160]

Lane should stick to advice on resistance training

[@btudrus]

Not even that.

[@SteveMcQueen999]

He clearly likes the sound of his own voice. One graph 📊 proves nothing.

[@Keithzzzzt]

Respect to you Dave. You are responding with a scientific openmindedness and an egoless attitude. Let your light shine through. This fear mongouring about LDL , cholesterol and saturated fat just muddies the water and obscures the real science. Heart disease is more nuanced than an LDL number. You can have perfect LDL numbers and still fall dead of a heart attack from a myriad of complicating factors. Mental health and stress can predispose you to arteriosclerosis. Bad dental health can do the same. Air pollution and socioeconomic status has a bigger correllation to heart disease than LDL. Your post code is a more accurate predictor of heart disease. The poorer the post code the more prevalence of heart disease.

[@vadimesharak726]

Lane is bule. He does not accept the fact he could be wrong. Dich his opinion.

[@Brandon-dg9lu]

Did you watch the video? He actually said in one of the clips that he had to change his mind because of the new data.

[@vadimesharak726]

@@Brandon-dg9lu , I did and checked what he believes, aka Mendelian randomization on LDL. Wasn't convinced after the fact, that the base of the data is the epidemiology.

[@gondwana6303]

While I respect your approach, Dave, you're frankly dealing with a bunch of vain, monetized, non-scientific influencers.

[@gondwana6303]

You may be defending the science, but they're defending their advertising and sponsorship revenues. So you can politely propose debate but they're not gonna actually jeopardize their compensation.

[@RussBrown-sj7tx]

OMG don' t sweat it Dave...Bart has already dealt with Wrongda and Lame Norton...

[@mariehelenegrenier8146]

Thank you, you shine

[@kennethyuman1940]

Dave just poke a hole in the bubble of knowledge on apoB-ASCVD over the past decades. We are watching a great scientific deflation.

[@haroonmirza1286]

You are a good person _ BUT _ I must say Lame Norton does not deserve this much respect!

[@rashoff]

They don't cal him Lame Norton for nothin'. You can't take this personally, he is just sensational for the views

[@jennifermathews4259]

I have no respect for Lane or Rhonda. Follow their sponsors (the money)

[@YourLifeRedefined]

Gotta love when people speak in absolutes.

[@methodofinstruction1368]

lol, and my IQ has a 1:1 correlation with the length and size of me foot!

[@Ruudwardt]

Thank you for doing this work despite what someone thinks. The lipid regulation is clearly very poorly studied across normal population, not to mention people who would fit LMHR phenotype.

[@uchdrydishere3717]

It’s very well studied. The unknown is whether LMHRers are an exception to the rule.

[@Ruudwardt]

@@uchdrydishere3717 Sure. And how much we know about just the HDL and ApoA. We know that measuring the static serum concentration to be basically useless and we know nearly nothing about the dynamic character of the processes, which does matter. Thanks to the LMHR enthusiasts we have a bit better handle on LDL stuff, but it is rather dark still.

[@uchdrydishere3717]

@@Ruudwardt I see your point. Yeah, I commend them for rocking the boat and demanding answers to the issue of high LDL in the midst of otherwise excellent health numbers. Looking forward to what they discover.

[@rrrlasse2]

I've been confused for a while. Is following guess of how I understand it correct? Let's say you pick 1000 random people from the street. Layne says you can draw a straight line of disease vs LDL. But if you only take the lean people of the group (or maybe only the LMHR people), you can do the same - the line may still be straight, but the very *slope* of the line will be so low that even those at highest risk is way below average of the entire group? I mean, you can have a linear correlation, but if the risk is very low, then the risk doesn't matter even if it's linear. A video explaining all this would be helpful :)

[@uchdrydishere3717]

Correct interpretation. The problem is that nobody knows what the second line looks like, because there have been no studies of lean mass hyper responders.

[@janethudson1553]

where can I find the study?

[@stephenduplantier2151]

Dave is too much of a gentleman. He needs to call Bart Kay as his Luca Brasi.

[@250txc]

'I'm with Dave ~100% ... This norton fellow has made made videos with cartoon characters inserts of himself... Seemed a little childish & might be a little full-of-himself? He's gonna fall into my *'not interested'* space... I'm OK with Ms. Patrick...

[@Roberto-cg2gr]

Hope there will be Mendelian Randomization of insulin resistance

[@waisssss123]

According to Layne I would benefit even more by lowering LDL. The question is how? I eat a low carb, moderate protein moderate fat whole food diet and exercise a lot. What should I do differently to lower LDL? As a LMHR I feel so well, it's hard to believe it's not doing good to me.

[@uchdrydishere3717]

Medication. If your only risk factor is high LDL, though, most doctors would say medication is not necessary. Trading saturated fats for unsaturated ones would also lower LDL.

[@richardbray8004]

Why do you pay any attention to him. He suffers from the Dunning Kruger syndrome.

[@ryanlebear]

You're right there.

[@XaqNautilus]

@@roh_son You're a weird cult! 😜

[@btudrus]

@@roh_son "He doesn't." Yes he does. He is brainwashed by all that unscientific nonsense.

[@chuckleezodiac24]

as well as a severe case of Stage IV Assholethelioma.

[@1timbarrett]

The worrying thing is that both Mr Norton and Ms Patrick probably mean well. 😮😢 😢

[@Appleblade]

I hope Lane isn't employing that bogus logic even after seeing this new study! : /

[@andredaedone7732]

I have had high LDL for 45 years and never did a statin...when I ate carbs my HDL was low and so were my triglycerides. When I went to Carnivore everything went higher but my triglycerides are still not bad. I actually did a 3 day fast and then went and got tested and did not make much of a difference in my levels. So what does that mean? Maybe a 7 days fast would lower my levels considerably but I dont think so. I got a life line screening and that was fine. I want to get a CAC score but my doctor is a butt head to give me a referral.

[@toddd6563]

Could be wrong but it seems Lane et al are reacting with orthodoxy in the face of new research…. Disappointing. Impressed with how you (Dave) are handling this.

[@slowfinger2]

I feel so good, but it must be an indication that something is wrong. I thought that was a result, a data point.

[@ClassicJukeboxBand]

The best thing to do to Norton is to ignore is establishment pushing nonsense...

[@uchdrydishere3717]

Decades of studies are nonsense?? Lives depend on this issue. The last thing anyone should do is ignore the other side. Science will determine the truth in time.

[@puggirl415]

My partner and I are researching this now. We both went carnivore in January 2024. We've been so successful losing weight, reducing our pain, healing minor issues with aging. However, my lipid profile while higher was only a bit higher than normal with a total cholesterol of 240 and a high LDL of 130. I'm not very worried. My partner though just got a lipid test back that was concerning. His total cholesterol was 499 with an LDL of 350! We are not bragging about it. We are concerned and he is going lion diet with more fasting to make sure that nothing he is eating is causing these numbers. He is lactose intolerant so decided to use coconut milk in his tea which is plant based so not sure if the saturated fat in the plant milk could be doing something to his cholesterol. Otherwise his trigs are way down his vitamin D is way up and his HDL is great. I want to figure out if his LDL is mostly large and buoyant but the formula needs numbers I don't seem to have. We talked about him going off the diet but gosh he has lost 50lbs and looks great. I don't see him as a LMHR because he was overweight but I don't know much about LMHR. The question I have is what diet would be healthy for him? High carb diets will put him in the same place he was before. Fatty liver, big gut, overweight and in pain. Maybe he could go Keto but knowing what we know I don't think adding a few vegetables and fruits would change much about his LDL but maybe that's the way to go.

[@stingrae789]

If you didn't have numbers in front of you, how would you determine this? What I'm getting at is getting worried about numbers isn't a great way to determine stuff, maybe lowering LDL isn't a good thing, we just don't know. The reality is the phenotype of LMHR is (likely) causing this and so far there's been shown to be zero risk. If you're really concerned then get a CAC scan annually? Like you I had normal cholesterol (with very good trigs). While LMHR is defined as lean people on carnivore, there has to be an underlying genetic pattern that would result in anyone having a similar cholesterol response. You get lactose free milk these days, you may also find he doesn't have an issue with raw milk but that's unlikely but probably worth a try. The one way to (somewhat) confirm would be to follow Nick's oreo experiment and test after that.

[@puggirl415]

@@stingrae789 Yes we've thought about adding some carbs back for him but he's lukewarm about that idea and trying to lower LDL in general. There is a formula for figuring the size of your LDL particles. Here is one such formula but I don't completely understand it. *The sdLDL-C concentration can be estimated from the classic lipid measures of non-HDL-C and calculated and direct LDL-C levels. Our equation (in mg/dL) was sdLDL-C = 0.580 (non-HDL-C) + 0.407 (dLDL-C) - 0.719 (cLDL-C) - 12.05. The big problem for him is that he did a lot of unconsidered eating while a bachelor, and he has some co-morbidities that have caused him systematic problems over the years that likely aren't reversible so he is starting off with a poor hand in general. He was an athelete as I said but he had undiagnosed Deep Vein Thrombosis from the age of 25 to 40 so has reduced lung capacity and a case of COPD due to negligence by the medical community. He is on blood thinners and was unable to take vitamin K2 for many years and ate an inflammatory diet for many years as well. I got him gluten free and on homecooked whole foods but he still abused sugar for years as did I but to a smaller extent. He says when he had a CT with contrast that his arteries were diagnosed as 80% blocked. So with that information you can see why we are doing everything we can to understand why such high LDL may be ok or if it's dangerous. We really need to know for him. We are with you regarding how much worry we should have over his lipid panel. I personally do not believe that LDL is much of a problem next to CVD, inflammation, glycation or high blood pressure. All of which get worse with carbs. The lion diet plus a retest of his lipids as well as an Hom-IR and a CAC as well a APO-B are what I think he needs. He can go to keto or ketovore but that is a last resort for us.

[@uchdrydishere3717]

In his case, avoiding carbs is still the main priority, as he will go off the rails and eat way too many if given the chance. He would be dead right now if he had continued abusing them. But with SO many options available for lowering LDL these days, I can’t see why he wouldn’t choose one. Even a VERY low dose of rosuvastatin, for example, would cut his LDL by 30% or more AND would lower inflammation. Statins simply reduce risk of heart attack and death, in EVERYONE (even lean mass hyper responders). Such a small dose would be very unlikely to cause any muscle issues. If he’s against statins, there are many other medicines that would lower his LDL. And if he’s against medicine in general, he can replace saturated fat with unsaturated, eat more fiber and veggies, exercise more, etc. There’s no reason not to lower an LDL level that high. It could be fatal for him. Why take chances? But again, for the sake of his liver and overall health, he MUST continue with a low-carb diet.

[@OIOnaut]

Throw Lane under the bus LOL. He belongs there. He is a bus mechanic.

[@jarettmeyer4929]

Layne just comes off as a complete prick, I don’t think he means too but it’s feels that way

[@samueln714]

Most people doing keto and carnivore are very health conscience and do lots of research. I have. Many of us do get the CAC scan even if just to prove our doctors wrong about their outdated info on LDL. Many medical people have stated that not that long ago 300 was the LDL norm. Many ketovores get yearly blood work and pay close attention to their numbers. Much much more than the average person. This way of eating is done by people serious about their health. These people talking sideways have no clue of the extent we go to monitoring our health. She commented on particle count going up... most LDL raises are not due to increased particle count, but particle size. That is something most of us pay attention to as well. Insulin levels, TG, hdl... the majority of people I believe, are monitoring all metobolic numbers and adjusting to be at optimum health. People like him spread fear and misinformation and are pushing bad health.

[@uchdrydishere3717]

The “fear” he’s spreading is based on the only good long term data we currently have. Nobody yet knows if Feldman’s theory is correct. Feldman would say the same himself. Layne can’t be faulted for being concerned. MAYBE lean mass hyper responders are immune to the dangers of high LDL, unlike everyone else. Maybe not. If not, a lot of people are gonna die unnecessarily in the coming years.