Respectful Response to Rhonda Patrick (Pt 2)

[@robert111k]

If the lipid energy model is eventually confirmed, Feldman should be awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine. Is there any fool who believes that the 'medical community' would allow something like that?

[@Takepermission1975]

Agree

[@nancyknettell2360]

I absolutely agree!

[@mikecolumbus2282]

Fuck me, I’m a LMHR and this talk is crazy. Our penotype is exceptionally rare and likely has little relevance to most people. Effectively we are freakshows that might help with further learning. Get a grip on reality

[@RC-qf3mp]

Not the ‘medical community’ who decides. Just some randos in Norway. If Obama can win a Nobel Prize, so can Feldman.

[@AmazingFeynman]

Come back when this research is actually helpful to people 😂

[@joannsmith9]

I’m so proud of you Dave,not just for your brilliance but your humility and kindness-for being such a fine human being.

[@dilettanter]

Yes I love Dave’s measured approach and kindness

[@gregmackenzie]

For what its worth ,I am extremely proud for you that the challenge was taken and the results are shared now.

[@DJKiwi80]

Keep up the great work Dave, your research is groundbreaking and will answer questions that have needed to be answered for a long time. As an engineer myself, I started asking the same questions as you when I discovered my LDL had raised significantly on a ketogenic diet. I was initially shocked at how many studies related to LDL and heart disease jumped to causal conclusions based on correlation without even attempting to demonstrate “how”. I’ve gone down a deep rabbit hole investigating the “how” and so far haven’t seen anything close to conclusive. It appears the lipid hypothesis is still officially a hypothesis. Your study design is by far the best in this field and I will be watching with interest as new results become available.

[@TOMGARVEYtheKETOCOOK]

I`m feeling really good about this more and more Dave. I also like your calm approach. That says a lot!!

[@rwill4858]

Thank you for all of your hard work and integrity Dave. I am so grateful to you and all of your collaborators for your dedication in getting these data published.

[@trentriver]

Open minds is what moves science forward ... any scientist who continues to support a position that has been proven to be wrong, can no longer be called a scientist - period.

[@seesharp81321]

Unfortunately it proceeds only one funeral at the time

[@larsnystrom6698]

Corrupted LDL is probably still a cause of plack. We still suspect that corrupted LDL particles, not recognized by the liver, is what both makes LDL-C levels go up.and is the cause of plack. At least that's what I belive. So, high LDL-C per se isn't a cause, but it certainly is a symptom that should make us look for a cause. Although, high LDL-C is probably compleatly healthy, if it's not of the corrupted forms.

[@BeefNEggs057]

Well their lipid hypothesis might have some truth in unhealthy broken people. The establishment ignores what is broken in people and focus only on cholesterol saying they can’t fix diabetes (nonsense like it’s irreversible and genetic - BS). Or worse yet they assign equal risk to a healthy person with high cholesterol as a person with insulin resistance/diabetes. Them continuing to assign risk solely based on cholesterol will continue to make them look like fools that can’t accurately predict who will have heart disease and who won’t. Blaming it on genetics is no longer a scapegoat.

[@BeefNEggs057]

@@larsnystrom6698 There must be an injury to the arterial lining for the LdL to show up to repair it. What causes that injury? We know high glucose damages cells - diabetics lose feet etc. It’s not even a leap to assume high glucose damages arteries and high insulin inflames everything. Those two are your culprits. Get glucose down and insulin follows. Avoid glucose spikes and avoid heart disease. CVD is Type 4 diabetes. Alzheimer’s is supposedly type 3 called by a few in the know.

[@AmazingFeynman]

A person on KZbin pretending to know how a scientist does his or her job making statements about how scientists should do their job should stay in their lane 😉

[@sharonk1734]

My dad's family has genetic high cholesterol. Most of them live into their 90's, my dad till 103 and they are fairly healthy. I have asked every doc that asked me if I want to take something if high cholesterol is so "unhealthy" how do they explain my family. No answers. When they can explain my dad's family they will be qualified to tell me if I need meds for my cholesterol. They should be studying healthy people and finding out what makes them healthy.

[@brianadler67]

Yes!

[@dilettanter]

Good point!! It’s good to study health - not just illness!

[@jobrown8146]

"They should be studying healthy people and finding out what makes them healthy." Exactly. Currently they are studying sick people to try to find drugs to supposedly help them, which in turn seems to end up needing more drugs and on and on. From what I have learned over the last 3 years since I remitted my diabetes by changing to low carb, the majority of the medical profession have very little clue about how changing diet can help people get healthy. BTW after changing to low carb my LDL increased a lot but my trigs went down and my HDL went up. I am not a LMHR but I am now metabolically healthy. I've gone from 80kg down to 60kg without even trying. I had fatty liver for 25+ years, which has been resolved proven by scans. I had a CTA with contrast 1 year after going low carb (I was 65 then) which showed zero plaque. The cardiologist, who was very happy that I had changed my diet, still recommended statin, to which I said no thanks.

[@SafeEffective-ls2pl]

The white coats had my mom on 7 cholesterol and blood pressure medications per day and she was falling apart. I took her off all the medications and she says she feels better now at age 85 than she did 15 years ago. All of her chronic health issues are gone.

[@jobrown8146]

@@SafeEffective-ls2pl Did she change her diet as well?

[@simonwiltshire7089]

Engineers build stuff that works. What we have now is because of engineers. Clean water systems save more lives than Drs. Thank you Dave.

[@MichaelDevlin-s8r]

These lipidologists are starting to realize they failed us and didn’t help us avoid a lot of suffering. They were arrogant know it alls but they actually knew very little.

[@Leopold---1320]

You said it! Especially Attia.

[@kenadams5504]

Bill Cromwell is a reasonable lipidologist .

[@prettybirdbeenlpeacock6592]

@@kenadams5504 but still entrenched in their paradigm.

[@RC-qf3mp]

They didn’t ’fail us’ insomuch as they succeeded at enriching the statin industry. They were never trying to help us. So they can’t fail at that.

[@ic1843]

@@Leopold---1320 I totally agree. His arrogance is so off putting plus his friendliness with big pharma is very sketchy.

[@ele003]

Exactly right! .. this study is the best indicator to address any concerns about LDL in the context of LMHR.. when people say LMHR can be healthier by lowering LDL.. why ? Obviously this study shows higher LDL doesn’t do any harm in LMHR phenotypes .. what am I missing ?

[@colinvankeith4814]

Not missing anything, you nailed it.

[@wocket42]

It's like the people saying to Shawn Baker that yes, he is 100% healthy and does world records, but he probably would be even more healthy or get more world records if he would just add some carb rich food like white rice or other plant stuff. Just insane.

[@mmortal03]

I think what is missing in terms of convincing more people is a tested theory mechanistically explaining why some people can have high LDL-C and not develop plaque. Maybe something specific to LMHR may help tease out whatever mechanism might be involved (and it might be multiple mechanisms).

[@CClikesIT]

Real discourse - love to see it! Thank you 🙂

[@ElizabethMillerTX]

Yet again, your response is very helpful and polite. I'm a little disappointed that Dr. Rhonda Patrick didn't seem to read this study, first, or at least didn't do so with her usual vigor and objectivity. I'm confident that, upon seeing this, she will be curious enough to take you up the offer and get better informed. We need her measured, critical reasoning on the case.

[@Billy97ify]

I doubt that doctors read any of the studies they refer to. They just read the headline titles. How can a meta analysis of uncontrolled associative studies lead to conclusive evidence of cause and effect? They call this the gold standard?

[@frasierkrane266]

I don’t mean any disrespect, but I could not care less what she or Norton think

[@AI-vs7sm]

That " may" be the reason for dragging their feet, because, if they allow that this " may" have merit, they open themselves up for criticism from" legitimate scientists ", ! In remembering the Berlin Wall being torn down, it came down one brick at a time, or as another comment or above has said, " one funeral at a time! " Whether our argument will triumph , before the powers that be against us use their eminence to eliminate animal.products ,remains to be seen, but, seeing all the videos by Ivor Cummings and Yanasa TV about events against cattle ranchers, natural and man made, are getting very scary!

[@michaelgalloway8786]

I am sorry, but I neither believe Rhonda Patrick critically read or reviewed this study based on her comments. Possibly just looking for some notoriety I suppose

[@prettybirdbeenlpeacock6592]

​@@michaelgalloway8786yep, she sure has slid down a peg or 2 in my respect after the CAC use response verses realizing they are using CT angiography...will anyone following her note this glaring mistake?

[@Mrdsmith500]

Crowd sourcing for studies is a great idea.

[@prettybirdbeenlpeacock6592]

​. Very very good point!

[@BeefNEggs057]

Only if I can stop my tax money from being misused to fund biased garbage studies. We should all be able to decide what our tax money does. Not how much we pay but where it goes. Like an investment portfolio.

[@vadimesharak726]

"Associated", "linked", "suggested"... None of them are definitive, but they again and again push it as the golden finding and causing things

[@defeqel6537]

Yup, we already know people with FH do not die earlier if they do not have a genetic mutation for higher blood clotting factors, so 3-6x higher LDL than average does not result in increased mortality, is LDL really the issue? Not to mention, it is rarely questioned why LDL is high, or low; smoking, alcohol use and high resting insulin should result in removing those data points from studies, not "adjustments"

[@thehappyfellow5500]

​@@defeqel6537source ?

[@thehappyfellow5500]

Depends on the strength of the association bud. There are no clinical randomized placebo controlled long term trials that show smoking causes lung cancer or other diseases but the association is so strong that we don't need them.

[@defeqel6537]

@@thehappyfellow5500 we do have controlled cell level studies for smoking, and the association is about two orders of magnitude greater than for LDL

[@vadimesharak726]

@@thehappyfellow5500 , well, sure, but it it is 7 times! What we see usually in studies? 1.05-1.2 maximum! And that because "adjustments". If you take the raw data and adjust them on your criterias then the conclusion frequently goes against the study.

[@rollingstone3017]

What seems obvious is that she holds to a thoroughly disproven paradigm. Just can’t pull her head out of the old indoctrination.

[@divadyrdnal]

Amazing that an engineer’s “problem solving” thoughts and reasoning is so foreign to the overall medical community…great job Dave!

[@larsnystrom6698]

Nothing prevents biologist and doctors from thinking like an engineer. But they might not be explicitly be trained that way. Maybe they should have some control theory in their curriculum too🙂 No doubt that Dave have revolutionized the thinking about LDL, and that's something doctors and researchers has to acknowledge.

[@DJKiwi80]

Engineers are never satisfied until they know the exact answer. The medical profession for some reason is happy to make conclusions based on correlation. Using the same logic, they must also believe an increase in ice cream sales causes sunburn!

[@wocket42]

No data will ever convince these people that they have propagated lies their whole life and have been duped themselves. At some point, I guess we need to pity them.

[@LVQ-so5th]

Only if they've done no harm to others.

[@MichaelHplus]

No data will convince you that your preferred theories are incorrect.

[@markleblanc451]

I would like to hear Nicks response to Rhonda’s video. It’s time for Peter to come to the table. Not to eat crow or to say he’s wrong because all parties can be right if we admit the existence of the lipid energy model and the LMHR phenotype. The cognitive dissonance of these people is beyond obvious. Keep plugging Dave and calling them out.

[@nerolowell2320]

with these people their cognition is only "follow the money"

[@puggirl415]

@@nerolowell2320 Yes! If Markleblanc415 is talking about Peter Attia of course his ego won't let him address inconsistencies in his hypothesis on heath. After all he wrote a book and it was printed with some inconsistent and bad information. He doesn't want to admit that.

[@PursuitAthleticTV]

I'd like only to respectfully disagree when you say "all parties can be right, if..." The established dogma has always been that LDL-C is an individual marker that in and of itself, spells potential doom for anyone with an "elevated" level, e.g. anything over 100. What they've all said is that both the metabolically healthy AND unhealthy need to be treated the same way. This is what Layne said and what so many others, including Peter, have said, repeatedly. To me, what the LMHR research will most importantly (potentially) accomplish is to establish once and for all, that LDL-C is only ONE of MANY markers that should be looked at in the bigger picture, as well as acknowledging that this (and any other) marker can mean very different things depending on the metabolic health of the individual. So, no, they can't ALL be right...

[@markellis6898]

Not a fan of Dr Rhonda. She has made two comments that I feel crazy. One vitamin c high intake. She said expensive urine but did not take into account the massive increase in the body's uptake of this under stress. Another comment was she stated you could drink as much water as you want to. Really and what about electrolyte loss due to excess water intake? That the bad cholesterol myth is still going blows me away. The fellow who pushed it has been thoroughly discredited yet it persists. HDL and triglycerides are a much better indication of health. What about the studies linking high LDL with longevity?

[@dilettanter]

Yes I always qi def about those studies linking ldl with longevity. Is that just for older people? What are the parameters on that

[@Malcolm-Achtman]

I see Dr. Nadir Ali quoting studies that show seniors with higher cholesterol live longer. I have an "N of 1" example that supports this. In 2013, my mother-in-law (age 80) was on a statin and her cholesterol levels were "typical" (e.g. total cholesterol 195 mg/dL, LDL-C 110 mg/dL). Against her doctors wishes I told her not to take a statin. Naturally, her numbers increased. Now, 11 years later, she is 91. Her total cholesterol is in the 300 mg/dL range and her LDL-C is in the low 200s. She is still alive. Maybe she would have still been alive if she had taken a statin all those years, but maybe not. The point is, she is still living and has what mainstream doctors would say is very high cholesterol. And, let me point out that my mother-in-law does not exercise, she always complains about poor sleep, and her blood pressure of 155/75 is high (despite being on 3 blood pressure lowering drugs). And, she eats a terrible junk food diet high in sweets, ultra-processed foods and carbohydrates. She lives independently in her own condo/apartment (just a few blocks away from me and my wife). We can help her out as needed. I'm sure that too has played a role in her longevity. But she's still alive and I'm going to attribute that to her high cholesterol.

[@philipkim580]

I get the sense that Dave wanted to REALLY say, it’s either time to talk about it or STFU about it 🤣 (to the dissenters and naysayers)

[@davisgrove8931]

I find it amazing how many intelligent individuals approach science with a closed mind. They will believe anything that feeds their bias but not even try to understand data that doesn't. Dave, keep up the incredible work that you guys are doing.

[@L.R.L.]

Dave is so very patient in answering questions and responding to concerns. He must get frustrated by the lack of curiosity and complacency in current medical thought despite the raging health issues plaguing society. Pharma is not always the answer, and if it turns out to be so, science still needs to better understand how the human body works. Keep up your good work. We are rooting for you.

[@richardb8267]

Great response Dave! Again, like what I said before, history will be kind to you and the rest of the team. It's only a matter of time before people in the medical field will accept your hypothesis. Hard to argue against good and solid data. At some point, science will prevail.

[@sabine8419]

However, many people, and that includes "experts" and "scientists," do handstands and backflips to defend their sugars and carbs, which are the real cause of the majority of heart and artery disease.

[@Roberto-cg2gr]

The research presented by David Diamond shows high LDL live longer

[@Leopold---1320]

In general or just in LMHR?

[@defeqel6537]

@@Leopold---1320 he mostly talks about people with familial hypercholesterolemia, and of those, the ones who don't have elevated blood clotting factors, but that group is enough, especially together with LMHR, to disprove the LDL hypothesis

[@larsnystrom6698]

@@Leopold---1320 As I remember it, it's in general. I.e., older people with high LDL-C actually have lower mortality. It's one of the contraindications to the bad LDL hypothesis, often ignored. Seen as a paradox, I presume!

[@Leopold---1320]

@@larsnystrom6698 👍

[@marcin33w]

His research shows people with LDL over 190 live shorter.

[@kateaye3506]

No PhD, no studies, no medical specialist will ever shake me from eating my animal rich diet. I'll take that 'risk' of high LDL over the daily agony of auto immune diseases any day, thanks Rhonda.

[@gungagalunga9040]

100%

[@rodneyhopkins2241]

Hey Dave, just want to thankyou and appreciate all of your efforts.

[@zoltangaal1842]

Peter Attia... He always finds out about truth the other way round. First a tearful TED talk when he acknoewledges he's been wrong about T2 diabetics. Second, in March 2020 he was almost hysterical about vitamin C and said he doesn't care if you put it on your testicles, but it doesn't work against covid. Third, the interview with Don Layman showed Attia has misconceptions about protein metabolism. Personally, I find him less than an authority on anything.

[@x-techgaming]

The Popular Doctor, who says fascinating things 🌟

[@stingrae789]

We need people to stop following these science charlatans. (Patrick, Huberman, Attia, Norton).

[@terryolay4613]

Attia is an ideologue and much less than he thinks he knows.

[@louisa4295]

Well said. Kudos for your civility and professionalism in your response.

[@Roberto-cg2gr]

Hyperinsulinimia is a better measure of metabolic health Ben Bikman

[@pfote65]

This is great .. and i think you're approaching it exactly the right way Dave, thank you for all the effort and patience and whatnot

[@Michael-pn2ye]

Again Dave you are the man keep it up 😊🥩🥩

[@michaelcariello6233]

Layne an Patrick are minions of Peter Attia regurgitating his awful talking point regarding LDL,Apob and “Mendelian Randomization” studies

[@denisvoronin2048]

Good point

[@georgemoonman2830]

I find the vast majority of MR studies are "our data didnt fit the conclusion our pharma/food industry sponsor wanted so we messed about with it until it did"

[@alexaad1712]

I honestly can’t stand the people that pretend like they know everything (e.g. Peter Attia, Rhonda Patrick, Ken Berry etc.) I would rather listen to people with open minds and are inquisitive. Ask the real questions, that’s how research and knowledge keeps evolving. Keep up the good work Dave!

[@hikerJohn]

She did not say much . . . *atherosclerosis* is a *chronic inflammatory disease* not a disease of high cholesterol .

[@justanother240]

A lot of data not a lot of science.

[@Leopold---1320]

What happens to the oil industry and the pharmaceutical industry when peole find out low LDL isnt necessarily a good thing?

[@alan2a1l]

Great response, Dave! I’m one more LMHR watching intently as your team is now publishing your results. RP should have you on to discuss.

[@ArticleMan261]

Your study has convinced me that the best tool for understanding my coronary status is not a blood test, but rather it is to to have a CCTA. 💪🏻

[@JMK-vo8pv]

After my heart attack and LAD stent placement 5 years ago, I have had MULTIPLE cardilogists tell me that I do not need any CCTA because they do not offer that "test." Then they proceed to order "stress test" after "stress test" and beat me up over my LDL-C of 131mg/dL!

[@ArticleMan261]

I’m in the Houston Texas area and there are any number of locations where I could have this done. This is a great opportunity for an N=1 experiment. Or N=2 since my wife will do the same. 😊

[@JMK-vo8pv]

@@ArticleMan261 Do you know if Medicare will cover a CCTA to monitor a patient's Coronary Artery Disease/plaque burden over time?

[@ArticleMan261]

I am not sure if it will. I will be checking into what options there may be. Good luck!

[@PrevMedHealth]

Hang in there, Dave. And remember what they did in Galileo’s day.

[@vickilahtinen7254]

Yes I think you are doing a major service to science and the world Keep going Dave I would love to see you and Nick being interviewed by Rhonda Patrick to tease out the issues of agreement and disagreement - preferably with more detail beyond the research findings

[@beautifulgirl219]

In my LIMITED UNDERSTANDING, heart disease correlates with metabolic dysfunction more than it does high LDL. That's correlation, NOT causation. I don't think it is LDL per se that is a contributor to heart disease, I think it is DAMAGED LDL that is a contributor to heart disease; as in LDL damaged by oxidation and LDL damaged by glycation, which as I understand it are associated with high Omega 6 levels, and high blood sugar levels, respectively. Cardiologist Philip Ovadia MD states that insulin resistance is the #1 risk factor for heart disease. P.S.S. BMJ Open 2016 "Lack of association or an inverse association between low-density-lipoprotein cholesterol and mortality in the elderly: a systemic review. Ravnskov U. et al Conclusion: High LDL-C is inversely associated with mortality in most people over 60 years. This finding is inconsistent with the cholesterol hypothesis (that cholesterol, particularly LDL-C, is inherently atherogenic).

[@robertlaveyra9940]

It is, apparently, so easy to get locked into a belief system and so hard to get out of one. If you see compelling evidence to change your thinking that has to be the best path forward.

[@rameshb9525]

If some find that high LDL is negative, and others find it is positive, then LDL means nothing. Like fast cars and slow cars in a traffic jam.

[@peterfaber7124]

This conversation is great. Real focus on small details. (replying more on youtube now as X has been blocked in Brazil)

[@marksanbourne3064]

Though it’s way back in my head … I do remember Dave and Dr Pete going around on this subject 6 years (wow that went fast) years ago. All things considered, since then I’ve read that between 88-93% of the American public has metabolic issues. Even with the LMHR weighing in as unique, how the heck can people be legitimately found to be considered for a study that are not already impacted in some fashion? Most of the nation has been fed a crock of crap for decades. All making dietary changes that cover those decades. To say that any of us can always bring a clean slate to a study, is a confounder in itself. So regardless of all of that, let’s keep in mind that this is progress that at no other time has or will have changed the lipid energy field. Any challenges to different outcomes are not a fact of right or wrong but a determination of facts from the research. Nothing will be gained by throwing others under the bus bcz they thought of a different outcome. At least someone did challenge the ideas…And that is a far cry from what happened years ago when Keys drove the lipid bus into the ditch.

[@cookiemonster9276]

Well done dave! Such exciting stuff!

[@efsmiley1995]

Boom. Mic drop. And so respectful at the same time. I would love to see both you and Nick on these podcasts. Will it happen???? 🤷‍♀️

[@tonydavis3796]

Thanks for the great work, Dave! Trying to overcome dogma is difficult.

[@colinvankeith4814]

As regards LMHR, if extremely high levels of LDL cholesterol AND extremely high levels of ApoB do not cause them to have atherosclerosis then how is it possible for the same molecules and same lipoproteins cause atherosclerosis in everybody else? If the evidence is that LMHR cholesterol molecules and LDL particles share the same attributes as do other cohorts then all of the observational, RM, and biased drug sponsored studies will have to be seriously questioned. If it is true that atherosclerosis is initiated by inflammation of the blood vessel endothelium and/or intima then it is logical to exonerate cholesterol and lipoproteins because they are not shown to cause inflammation, rather they play a role in the healing process. That’s my 2 cents worth from some guy without any initials after his name.

[@jacqueslucas8616]

What do they teach these doctors in medical schoooool???? No plaque in 5 years! So read the study

[@machinotaur]

Respectfully, I doubt Rhonda (and for sure Layne) and many other such public intellectuals ever had a philosophy of science class. I think it should be a required course for post-grad STEM degrees, especially if you're going into research.

[@randomdiyguy1883]

Thanks for your comment. I ran "what is a philosophy of science class" into Perplexity. I agree, all that seems foundational.

[@Minder777]

While I am a fan of Rhonda, Layne, and Peter Attia, I find them to be logically inconsistent at times, and this video exemplifies this fact quite well.

[@timh-c7186]

The most "inconsistent" point for me is they are derivatives of Tom Dayspring which is OK....but I find irony in that as highlighted in Peter Attia's book that Tom is/was metabolically sick (high glucose/insulin) and bordering obesity. Peter was working with him on fasting to get him in order. Bottom line, maybe "experts aren't experts"

[@michaelpadula2943]

I used to follow them and subscribed to Attia since day 1. I stopped about 2 years ago subscribing and listening to all of them. They are stuck , thats not how science works.

[@prettybirdbeenlpeacock6592]

Personally, I find Layne extremely annoying and smug.

[@michaelpadula2943]

@@prettybirdbeenlpeacock6592 YES ! I am friends with 2 genius MDs for over 25 years that actually make people healthy and get them off meds. They are both very humble !

[@stingrae789]

You shouldn't be. They're charlatans.

[@mark11145]

Then there are those like me. I developed a CAC score of 400 prior to going carnivore and becoming a LMHR. (full triad by testing) After 2 years on Carnivore and being LMHR I have had 0 additional plaque added to my arteries. I still have a score of 400.

[@GameofTrees]

Very solid response.

[@garyjackson4054]

That’s the way to do it. It will be extremely difficult for many people to admit they had it wrong for their whole adult life. I did and it wasn’t easy. Not everyone has the moral courage of Prof Tim Noakes as example.

[@Takepermission1975]

Dr Dave Feldman!

[@darrellwong4097]

Nice response Dave.👍

[@werquantum]

Can’t wait to hear the news of your invite to the good doctor’s podcast.

[@rckindkitty]

Awesome work, Dave. Thanks for your efforts in the field!

[@user-ij8no5zw6u-]

What a great attitude! Results are extremely intriguing and question rising...

[@jaeLAX23]

Dave is always so respectful. It makes me happy to share his work with others.

[@ApoBeef]

Would love to see Dave on Peter Attia for round 2. Perhaps with Nick Norwitz and Thomas Dayspring?

[@puggirl415]

With regard to Lean Mass Hyper Responders: I am seeing various N-1 experiments in lowering LDL by eating carbs for a short time. (Nick Norowitz) There are also other people on a carnivore diet starting out with super high total, cholesterol spiking in the 600's, for instance, and then 6 months of healing and reducing inflammation on this diet the same LMHR's cholesterol going down by half say 300 total cholesterol. I haven't listened to the whole video but I hope Rhonda Patrick will mention this as well as the fact that before statins were a thing having a total cholesterol under 300 (most people) wasn't considered a risk factor. So far there is no real standard dividing line between dangerous and healthy total cholesterol or LDL for that matter. My total cholesterol is 240 which is a fine number but I hope to go to 260 because higher total cholesterol is protective for people over 60 and older. As I heal on this diet I expect more changes to my cholesterol numbers. As my triglycerides go down. (currently 76) and my HDL goes up on this diet (currently 68) I believe my LDL will get more and more balanced. It's not a sure thing but I'm seeing this happen with others who share their numbers regularly. Put it this way. The whole foods, but carb heavy diet I was eating isn't going to serve me in terms of digestive issues and senior weight gain so what kind of diet can I easily stick to that heals my digestive and metabolic issues and helps me lose weight that keeps me from exercising? There is no other diet that has worked as well as the carnivore diet. Why would I go back to diets that give me type 2 diabetes even though it's not ultra processed. Vegan and Vegetarian diets are not satiating and too high carb or ultraprocessed. Carnivore, Ketovore and Keto are the diets that work for all my problems. Whether they cause heart disease is the question. I will be someone who takes that risk. It's the same risk with the other diets that don't work. If I get fat and have type 2 as well as digestive problems but a lower LDL then I'm not going to be any healthier than I am now and probably less healthy. Focusing on LDL is lazy and convenient for the armchair analyst.

[@vitalijussivakovas334]

Thank you ❤

[@robyn3349]

Thank you!

[@marianwest3525]

Hey Dave; I am a 67 year old woman who is a hyper responder. Having a dad die of Alzheimer’s and mom of pancreatic cancer, I am quite thrilled over my test results. Will let you know when I kick the bucket!!😆

[@ralphrookley6942]

Maybe Wrongda Patrick should rethink her funding bias?

[@RichardAMorris]

You could do a "mendelian" randomization on highways in various cities with constitutive ratios of working to non-working population and observe the linear relationship between the number of working people (who leave the city at the end of the work day) and and the number of traffic jams on the highway out of town. Do you then infer a priori that every city everywhere needs a lower ratio of working people, or that highways need extra lanes and more off ramps? In this thought experiment working people are LDL particles, and the ratio of working vs non-working is the genetic predisposition to producing more or less LDL, the traffic jam is atherogenic progression, a preferentially fatty acid oxidizing metabolism is the extra lanes, and HDL is the offramps.

[@pedrolavigne9718]

As a healthy border line LMHR and being already over 70 years old, I have chosen to adhere to a 4+ sauna sessions a week to lower CVD risks as suggested by Dr R. Patrick rather than aiming at lowering cholesterol levels.

[@paulmiller1803]

I find this subject and debate fascinating, but confusing for the layperson. At 61, after being obese for 20 years (before that in relatively good shape), I decided to learn all I could about metabolism and act accordingly. That led me to Keto/Carvivore, and I’ve lost 94lbs in 7 months, and as a result my doc has taken me off my blood reassure meds and statins (purely based on weight loss, not lipid measurements). I am going to have my lipids checked again, and am dreading the result. I find the LMHR study compelling, but I’m also unclear how that is relative to the population in general. Reworded, are LMHRs a certain type of person who’s metabolism treats lipids differently? It seems to me that it can’t be assumed based on this study that just because a LMHR can have sky-high LDL/apoB without atherosclerosis, that this can be extrapolated to mean that a 61 year old former fat guy can just eliminate systemic inflammation, lower BP, get Tri/HDL ratio and HBA1C in order, and simultaneously summarily disregard LDL/apoB. Am I thinking about this correctly? I don’t want to damage my health with saturated fat, but the results I’ve gained have been absolutely fantastic, and I really really do not want to go back on statins.

[@upperkits]

My mom will be 100 has had high LDL for decades. My dad has high LDL at 86 and I have super high LDL for decades , great numbers HDL Trigs hscrp insulin glucose etc and had a CAC score of ZERO a few years ago at 57

[@peterbedford2610]

When you have to say "respectful"....

[@GoldenBlaisdale]

my very highest LDL happens when i fast. i simply don't believe that my body is trying to kill me. further more my LDL levels have consistently been around 500mg/dl this is approx last 8 years yet CAC 0 and CT angiogram with contrast shows no plaque soft or calcified.

[@beardumaw24]

I think Patrick's and Norton are off in their thinking about LDL. LDL is critical for your immune system function among other things.

[@Michael-oj6rt]

If the (Quantity * Time) of ApoB particles is causal for ASCVD then what is it about those particles in LMHR that is different so that (Quantity * Time) is not causal? How does metabolic health change those particles or their environment to become less malignant? Could the carb vs. fat-based metabolism have something to do with it? Is there a difference in HbA1c profile among LMHR? If so, there are studies that show the lower the HbA1c is (even in the normal range) the less ASCVD progression occurs.

[@Malcolm-Achtman]

Yes, good metabolic health makes LDL and ApoB particles less atherogenic (according to cardiologist Dr. William Davis). You can see how he explains it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqWTY5dtjreCr5o

[@MichaelConlon-j7z]

I really respect how respectful you are with Rhonda. I like her, and have since I first saw her on Rogan, and then much then after. I hope that you, her, and Nick will be able to discuss this on your or her site, as you suggest in the vid.. If this comes to pass, many more will get exposed to this new, important science. This will accelerate the acceptance in the medical community, which appears to be filled with old Doctors who've been on the simple - "you got bad Cholesterol? Here's yer statin" - money train, to the detriment of who knows how many patients. My medical experience as, a retired Hospital Corpsman in the Navy enables me to follow your explanations, with sometimes having to take notes and listen more than once. Closing with thanks, Dave.

[@jimbroderick5507]

excellent

[@javarithms]

Dave is doing real science while Rhonda is pontificating

[@denisvoronin2048]

my thoughts exactly

[@prettybirdbeenlpeacock6592]

6:52 i have liked Rhonda's videos and research....but she just lost some respect by speaking to CAC score not showing a full picture...did she even read the paper?? to not even realize you are using CT angiography? Just shows a pretty closed mind to make that obvious mistake.

[@justanother240]

Nice. Love to see you on her podcast!

[@pascalsimonskoufos8066]

My problem with people like Norton, Patrick, Attia etc is that no study will be never enough to open their minds to at least be curious about another alternative then their current believe system.

[@frostmournehs5373]

As he just said there has been no studies other than this one which simply demonstrates that a healthy keto cohort is laying down plaque as fast as a less healthy SAD diet cohort after less than 5 years, which isn't exactly a ringing endorsement for keto nor contrary to the existing evidence.

[@pascalsimonskoufos8066]

@@frostmournehs5373 watch the video again because you did not understand anything.

[@frostmournehs5373]

@@pascalsimonskoufos8066 you just complained that no study will be enough for some people, but as Dave said there have been no studies to change their minds. This study that demonstrates only that a cherry picked keto cohort (had to have zero plaque to enter study) develop plaque at the same rate as those eating a standard american diet, who are less fit, and still have ldl well above threshold levels (and with more ldl years) - in other words a very low bar that keto wasn't able to walk over. Pretty bleak. Of course we would love to see the keto cohort rejects with plaque and follow them to see you know ... plaque development, but alas we only have this cohort who went from zero CAC to almost half having non-zero CAC in 4.7 years.

[@pascalsimonskoufos8066]

@@frostmournehs5373 Dave explained all the criticisms and accusations you are making, I would propose you to watch the video again, together with Nick Norwitzes Video, your takeaway is not what the data of the study reflects.

[@frostmournehs5373]

@@pascalsimonskoufos8066 you know you can read the study right?

[@thomass5169]

Ever since Rhonda gave her unquestionable support to the most recent pandemic "solution", without the scientific data to back up her assertions to its safety and efficacy, I personally look at her qualified opinions with a renewed sense of skepticism. Dave, I hope Rhonda takes you up on your request and does so with urgency. In fact, maybe your team and her team could meet on the Joe Rogan podcast in hopes of a larger audience. That would be epic, and in a neutral setting. Thanks for all you do Dave..., been watching eagerly from the beginning.

[@philipmerson2747]

Good work Dave, you smashed it!

[@Thurrak]

I think it would be great if you were on her podcast to discuss! hope she sends an invite.

[@davidgifford8112]

I question if Dr Patrick read your paper in any detail, at least from her responses. There is plenty of other large cohort study data that suggests higher LDL is protective and associates with lower ACM, even studies that show higher cardiac mortality with low LDL where serum albumin is low. This suggests to me LDL has a critical role to play in energy transport, including immune support, at least in late life.

[@samueln714]

I will take my chances with higer LDL and lower TG and higher HDL.

[@biodivers5294]

Great response again! Hope Rhonda invites you for a talk..

[@AE_IAF]

It would be very interesting if you could have a public chat with Dr. Malcom Kendrick.

[@markmacdonald1849]

Can't take her seriously after her strange statements on Joe Rogan 3 years ago supporting the responses to the thing that was happening then

[@thomass5169]

100%

[@davidb9670]

Dave, it would be interesting to replot your data looking at LDL, rather than LDL-P, eliminating those patients who have zero plaque, and then comparing your new graph to the data from this study: "Association of Serum Lipid Profile With Coronary Computed Tomographic Angiography-derived Morphologic and Functional Quantitative Plaque Markers". In this study, they show a dose response relationship between LDL and total plaque score. (Well, at least they divided the LDL groups into low, med, and high, so you have three broad data points.) The difference, of course, is that this study includes a lot of metabolically unhealthy patients.

[@Helen-nv8el]

Thank you Dave.

[@5675421]

Pure class

[@DrBussanich]

Very good stuff. No question. Feldman is exceptional in his focus. Put 50 ppl in a steak only study under controlled institutional control. Take their Ca Scores throughout. Watch their blood sugar normalize, watch them lose weight. All this interpretable data, all this chemistry. Put them in steak and butter and monitor. Therapeutic interventional study. I know, so many people have reversed metabolic conditions using Keto. Mental health issues. All anecdotally. Time to do it observationally. I'm so tired of waiting for this to happen in a modern context.

[@ronrice1931]

"Respectful response?" Hey, man, this is the internet, don't worry about it.

[@wocket42]

I think it should be also clear that any individual will probably reduce their risk of heart disease or other illnesses by reducing the peaks of blood sugar levels. So a daily peak of 120 is much healthier than a daily peak of 125. I would also think that the reduction in blood sugar peaks will have a much bigger impact to health than artificially reducing LDL-C. Why? Because LDL-C is clearly just a marker, not a cause, while higher blood sugar levels is NOT a marker, but a definitive cause for damage. Yet, carb addicts focus on LDL-C instead of looking at daily peaks of blood sugar levels? Why? Just more convenient for them.

[@MK-ft3qt]

Has anyone thought about the idea that each person may have a unique lipid profile that is optimal for them? Maybe it's not one lipid profile fits all.

[@andreahatfield1456]

If you happen to be an LMHR as I am, show support with your $$’s!! Keep the research going!

[@mtbruss]

How can Mendelian randomization which is a statistical method for estimation of causation be better than direct measurement? That seems to be the equivalent of a mechanic diagnosing based on common occurrence rather than analysis of the specific car.