Response to Matt Easton - What are disc guards for?

[@b1laxson]

Its not often one sees a reply video agreeing by elaborating on the original. Well done.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks for watching! I just wanted to chime in and provide more evidence for Matt’s argument!

[@WasabiWei]

Yeah, fantastic. Thanks so much for elaborating on Matt's video which was also very informative. Holy smokes!

[@Glimmlampe1982]

As someone who has basically no idea about eastern martial arts, I suspect that's also why there's a strong emphasis on "Fühlen"(feeling) in European sword systems, while it's (probably) lacking in the east.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks for watching! Yeah blade on blade binding does not happen in Chinese arts the same way it does in German ones. There are binding actions with the dao, but many of them involve overpowering the opponents defense but putting the off and on the spine of the blade and "half-swording". There is also binding against spears and polearms but that doesn't work the same way as blade on blade contact.

[@TheChonaman]

As someone who lived in Asia for more than a year, I greatly appreciate the historical content of this channel. I have studied Asian arts (calligraphy, painting), and samurai training, philosophy, and tactics extensively. Americans (admittedly, like myself) have vastly underestimated the incredible value that Asian culture represents historically.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks everyone for watching! Please check out Matt’s original video here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/h53VkIZ8bLSKo68 Also, many of the images in this video, including the thumbnail itself, come from Peter Dekker Mandarin Mansion. He has an awesome site and does a lot of good research which can be found here: mandarinmansion.com/ Also, I normally use traditional characters in my videos, but when describing terms with the dao, I unintentionally used the simplified character 挂 (guà) instead of the traditional form 掛. Let me know your thoughts and ideas about parrying with the dao and disc guards down below!

[@saberserpent1134]

When the blade is coming down, you'll block with any part of your weapon you can. Great video, and I 100% agree with both the disc guard information and the acknowledging of edge-on-edge parrying. It might not be ideal, but it does in fact happen. Great video, Brother!

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks for watching! And yes I think people get hung up on the “never do this, never do that” mentality.

[@rimroth5224]

If you train enough and it becomes an automatism you always block with the flat

[@saberserpent1134]

"Always" and "Never" are two words that shouldn't be used regarding martial strategy, IMO. Every engagement has innumerable variables; adaptation is the only path to victory/survival. I know this is a very heated topic among Chinese swordsmanship practitioners, but it's not that much of an issue in other sword styles. Chinese swordsmanship (particularly jian) is the only system I've formally trained where the act of edge-on-edge contact is *said* to not exist. I have trouble seeing what makes jianfa the exception to the majority of East Asian sword styles; edge-on-edge is not taught as the "correct way to parry", but it's accepted as something that can and does happen in combat. My $0.02. :)

[@MuriKakari]

Hooray! Your comment on Matt's video led me to subscribe to your channel in the first place. So glad to see this video.

[@thescholar-general5975]

I am glad that you are here! Thanks for watching!

[@boon9329]

Very nice video. It's also cool to see a martial artist that studies something with a living lineage acknowledging the fact that it should be viewed through the lens of something like an oral history. A lot of people fall into the trap of thinking living lineage means more pure vs seeing it as something that's been filtered through multiple people over the years and changed due to that.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thank you for watching! When it comes to living lineages I just thing we have to view them with the same critical thinking that we use on every other historical source.

[@dlatrexswords]

Wonderful discussion! Speaking to at least a few anecdotes from Japan, there are plenty of accounts from Edo Japan at least of using the Mune (either in defense or even as a strike?) so that supports what you discuss here nicely. Great demonstration of technique.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks for watching! Perhaps you could make a video presenting more evidence from Japan!

[@ambulocetusnatans]

I was in two different Kenjutsu styles, and one of them taught to deflect with the shinogi, and the other prefered the mune.

[@thalamay]

I wonder, are there any meet-ups between students of the Chinese martial arts and HEMA? That would be interesting, not only from a competitive point of view (though that too), but also because Im sure both sides can learn a lot from one another. The treatises we have are bound to be incomplete and I‘m sure both traditions came up with many similar techniques. However, at the same time, some techniques probably only work in one system or the other, dictated by the equipment, such as the guard. It would be really interesting to see which techniques can be transferred from one system to the other and which techniques can’t.

[@thescholar-general5975]

The proper historical fencing with chinese martial arts is still a fairly small, but growing community. In the future I will do some sparring videos, and some of them will certainly be against weapons which are common in HEMA.

[@UserNamechannel]

Would love to see full speed sparring between a single-handed dao and a european arming sword, with practitioners of each martial art. Great video btw

[@efafe4972]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/gondkqF3fqqEia8&ab_channel=CHAMPARCHER i have never seen that but here is the inverse (jian v sabre)

[@Intranetusa]

Great video. Given the different guards on the jian and the very different guards on the ancient jians of the Han Dynasty era, I presume this means that sword fighting techniques varied widely between different types of swords and timeperiods?

[@thescholar-general5975]

Yes I think that things certainly changed across different time periods and somewhat with swords as well. Although most jian do not have disc guards they likely preferred flat deflections to edge parries as well, but I didn’t get into this too much here because our evidence is not as substantial when it comes to jian. We have interesting damage on antiques and we have the living tradition, but oldest and only text I know of which says to parry with the flat on a jian comes from the early republican period. So, I decided to focus on dao in this video for these reasons. There driving forces behind how and why jian change over time is a little more complicated because they were not a standard military weapon, but were perceived as prestigious blades worn by elites. In the future I may make a follow up video to this one talking about jian guards

[@lobstereleven4610]

thanks for the interesting explanation and also clearly explaining your evidence sources. very cool

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks for watching! And yes, going to the sources is what I am all about on this channel!

[@mistahanansi2264]

My only remaining question would be, why do Chinese guards often (not always) have a cup-like shape to them instead of a true flat disk? I’ve heard it’s because it causes less discomfort should it make contact with the wearer’s body when worn, but I wasn’t sure if that’s all there was to it… for all I know, it could be multiple factors.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Great question! I will make a future video on this topic. Earlier designs were not cupped but this became more common over time.

[@secutorprimus]

I had always assumed the emphasis of spine/flat parries in Eastern traditions was dojo lore. But this has entirely convinced me otherwise! Very cool to see.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks for watching!

[@rimroth5224]

May I ask in what manuals exactly they emphasize cutting into spearshafts ? I would really like to study them

[@thescholar-general5975]

The Shoubilu by Wushu mentions this

[@mulli032]

Practicing liao cuts, gou into zha, or low gua always make me double check I don't have a pet sneaking up on me. 🐈‍⬛🐕

[@thescholar-general5975]

Yes, I can understand your concern. Most of the time, I do not let the pets out when I am training. When I filmed the video, I was making sure to keep an eye on them and kept them at a distance.

[@mulli032]

@@thescholar-general5975 reading my comment now I see that it could have come across as advice or criticism - mos def wasn’t meant that way! Seeing your puppet just made me feel the moment every time I practice when I’m interrupted by a cat.😅

[@thescholar-general5975]

@@mulli032 No problem! It is always a good reminder to be aware of the pets.

[@WhatIfBrigade]

I like this has archeological, historical text and modern tradition evidence.

[@rbranham8062]

Very insightful. Thanks for the video

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thank you for watching!

[@mulli032]

Also, I was talking to a kung fu friend last week about this, but are you familiar with the more trapezoidal hushou on some dao? Ones that widen towards the back, giving you basically two extended lobes in the area of the corners of the daobei. I wonder how much those are form and how much they are function for weapons sliding down or catching on the back sides of the blade?

[@thescholar-general5975]

Yes I am aware of those. I think that they are interesting, but I am not sure how much the design would impact function. It would be interesting to experiment with one though!

[@theravenswoodacademy8796]

You did such a good job organizing and presenting all that info! I will say however there are written sources that specifically instruct counter-cutting (“edge blocking”) against the opponent’s sword. It was consciously employed as a defensive option. Cheers!

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks for watching! Which sources do you have for this? I am certainly open to changing my views in light of new evidence.

[@theravenswoodacademy8796]

@@thescholar-general5975 I’ll make a vid. 👍

[@theravenswoodacademy8796]

@@thescholar-general5975 you’ve probably seen this discussion pops up all the time on Chinese sword forums and groups. I already started working on a vid response and ran into yours as well. I probably should have made a vid about it a long while back but life be cray. I’ll let you know.

[@thescholar-general5975]

@@theravenswoodacademy8796 That sounds great! I look forward to seeing your video! Perhaps a little back and forth between us can approach a consensus in the community. I am definitely being a little overly optimistic but hey its worth a shot!

[@theravenswoodacademy8796]

@@thescholar-general5975 yeah, I basically “agree” with most of the things mentioned in your vid. I’ll just add the addition of edge-cuts/blocks with my new video. I think you mentioned elsewhere that too much of an absolutist, all or nothing approach probably isn’t right anyways for hundreds of sword methods over many years spread across tons of geography (and all that just in China!). Anyways, I’ll get on the vid which is mostly already filmed/edited and is more a reaction to the general community, not a “jab” at you or anything. All the Best. (I hate typing on my phone).

[@Druid_Ignacy]

Wow, your demonstration is so clean!

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thank you, though I still have lots of work to do on improving my swordsmanship.

[@stanlim9182]

10:12 wouldn't the zha damage the jian false edge?

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks for watching! I am not sure how a downwards thrust or zha would damage the false edge of the jian. The deflection I am using there is with the flat of the blade and not with the spine.

[@stanlim9182]

@@thescholar-general5975 Hi, thanks for responding. Apologies for the confusions with my question. It reminded me of a similar deflection call ci (hopefully I got the term correct).

[@killerkraut9179]

If you dont want to demage youre sword dont fight with it !

[@troyfiss9332]

Great video! Is that a curved Heavenly Horse in the back?

[@efafe4972]

chinese swords deserve so much more attention than they get. so many designs were ahead of their time

[@fuheitu4040]

中国剑(Jian)不用圆盘护手严格来说是一种刻板印象，明朝剑(Jian)就普遍使用圆盘护手，宋朝以后的中国剑是否使用圆盘护手应该取决于是否在战场上大规模使用，而明朝剑(Jian)就是自汉朝以后少有的将双刃剑(Jian)大规模列装给士兵的时期

[@devinlancaster7579]

Mr Seeley I miss you so much please come back

[@camrendavis6650]

1:14 Ah! there's that "word" XD

[@thescholar-general5975]

I was waiting for someone to catch that!

[@loudradialem5233]

Very interesting! How did you learn it? Can you read those manuals?

[@thescholar-general5975]

I have studied with a few teachers. Primarily Scott Rodell and Jeremy Thomas. And yes, I can read the manuals.

[@loudradialem5233]

Can you read Chinese?

[@thescholar-general5975]

@@loudradialem5233 Yes, I couldn’t really read the manuals if I couldn’t read the chinese.

[@loudradialem5233]

That's awesome!

[@darrylviljoen6227]

I'm not sure if you mentioned it but especially the last few techniques, by using the spine, you keep the edge facing towards your opponent, allowing for a quicker counter strike.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Yes this is not something I mentioned, but it is one of the nice things about deflecting in this manner.

[@darrylviljoen6227]

@@thescholar-general5975 as well as putting it inside your opponents weapon.

[@kuprukuula]

9:00 Where is this clip from?

[@thescholar-general5975]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mmHJnZ95iMqVh7M

[@kuprukuula]

@@thescholar-general5975 Wow! Thank you! This sort of footage is not so easy to find

[@vedymin1]

Ehh idk....even if people parried mostly with the flats, your attacks are still done with the edge, so the part of the sword you cut with will meet a meatier part of the opponents weapon and roll/chip as it always does when meeting resistive things. Also, there is no guarantee that your opponent will adhere to any special way of parrying. Rolling the sword in your hand or putting your wrist at an angle, just to flat parry wastes time, increases chances of fumbling and makes your kinetic chain possibly weaker, more easy to push through (the sword bends in that direction and swords can slide much easier on the flat making contact more ramdom). The sword is just a tool, it exists to get damaged instead of you, if it breaks or bends, you can fix it or replace it after the imminent threat to your life is over. If you focus on "protecting" your edges, you might not focus enough on protecting yourself.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks for watching and bringing up these counterpoints! You are absolutely right that you cannot control what the opponent does and they may use their edge to block your blade. However, the antiques that we have access to seems to suggest that hard edge parries on the forte of the blade were not done. We can find nicks on several other areas of the blade, but rarely in that section. I am not convinced that rotating the wrist while parrying is slower than not doing so. The simple fact is that the arm supinates and the wrist flexes while the arm is moving the sword into position. If pronating or supinating the wrist had a significant impact on sword speed, then we would not see it done so commonly with thrusts. But even smallsword which requires quick manipulation of a lightweight weapon still uses thrusting actions that sometimes involve twisting the wrist. Additionally, some military saber systems also involve flexing the wrist during deflections but interestingly this is done in order to make the edge face the opponents blade as opposed to avoid it. An example of this can be found in Hutton's "Parry of Seconde" as well as Roworth's "Outside Half-hanger". There is more to say about the biomechanics involved in this position, but it would take a while to explain. I appreciate that you brought up the possibility of weaknesses in the kinetic chain while parrying with the flat. Actually, I previously filmed a video in which I tested the strength of these parrying positions, but I decided not to put it on youtube because we did it with a sharp sword and did not use proper safety equipment. These basic parries were tested against a Hickory staff that was an 1.25 inches (~3cm) in diameter with no taper and it was just under 6ft (~1.8m) in length. What we found was that the guard positions successfully resisted powerful blows from the staff for a few reasons. For one, parrying with the forte of the blade makes the parry much stronger. For two, many of these guard positions involve bringing the saber much closer to your body than many of the parries which can be found in other systems like military saber where they parry sometimes parry with a more extended arm. Bringing the saber closer to your body has some disadvantages when fencing, but one of the advantages gained is that your parry is much stronger than it would otherwise be. Additionally, the dao that we tested had a point of balance of around 6.5 inches (~17cm) above the guard. Most chinese swords have a POB somewhere between 6 - 8 inches (~15-21cm) above the guard. This means that when you parry with the flat of the blade on the forte, the incoming weapon will be below the POB. Rather than easily rotating the sword like a lever around your hand, the POB which lies about the point of contact will resist this inertia and make for a stronger parry. Additionally, when it comes to high guards, even if the parry does blow through my structure, the result is that the flat of my blade then contacts my shoulder which means that the blade itself becomes a steel bar that can keep a strike from damaging me as badly. If you watch the section of this video where I demonstrate the head wrapping parries you may be able to see what I am talking about. Finally, when it comes to the blade itself flexing, I think that the differences in both the form and heat treatment of Chinese swords as compared to European ones make a difference here. Both single and double-edged chinese swords tend to be relatively thick in cross section which adds a lot of rigidity to the blade. Additionally, the traditional forging process involved softer steels on the outside of the blade and they were not always through tempered. This means that they are higher in stiffness or Young's Modulus than a through tempered blade. These things combined with the fact that parrying hard parries should be done on the forte means that the sword is unlikely to yield in plane of the flat. Also, everything I just said above applies to the context of hard parries. In actuality, Chinese swordsmanship heavy relies on voids, yielding parries, and beating deflections as well which work somewhat differently.

[@raphlvlogs271]

similar things can also be done with European sabres or hand and a half katanas.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Yes I also agree that there are some interesting similarities between European saber systems and daofa. From what I have seen of wakizashi kata, they also appear to have some similar techniques.

[@griffian4454]

Please do the off hand video you mention here

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks for watching! I am bound to make this video eventually! There is a lot to say about this topic.

[@raphlvlogs271]

north east Asian hilts are usually oversized and generalised opposite design logic to the tight dictating hilts of Indo Persian hilts

[@thescholar-general5975]

yes, this is a great observation! I believe that the prominence of the dhal or buckler in the indo-persoan world may have something to do with it.

[@DrVictorVasconcelos]

It makes a lot of sense with differential hardening/if you have a very hard edge. And that originated in China, I think?

[@thescholar-general5975]

Differential hardening can be found on some Han dynasty swords which date to around 100 AD or so. I am not aware of any places earlier than that but could be wrong.

[@TheBaconWizard]

Quite compelling and very interesting. I hope Matt sees and responds to this.

[@thescholar-general5975]

Thanks for watching!

[@horith8033]

nice

[@elshebactm6769]

🤠👍🏿