Response video to FortNine & MotoJitsu about Leaning the Wrong Way on your Motorcycle

So I wanted to add a little context to the conversation happening online about motorcycle lean and the proper technique for rounding corners on a motorcycle.
I have attached links to the videos below for context.
Here is the video from FortNine that started the conversation: • Motorcycle Riders - Yo...
The Response video from MotoJitsu:
• Video
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[@jamesmcgrath1952]

I'm old, been riding 50+ years. I'm not into the "how fast can I go" thing. I'm into the joy of riding, of working the machine. Stopping occasionally to look at the scenery, have coffee (always bring coffee lol). I'm old but still riding. Be safe.

[@nickthequick]

Your profile probably fits, more or less, most of the subscribers to this channel which means that the message won't reach those it needs to reach ...

[@doordevloer9105]

I'm 54 and started to ride last year and love it; an old passion re-awakened. But I'm now sometimes find myself worried about the question how long can a man ride. When is one to old or fragile to safely get that heavy motorcycle of the stand and hit the streets (carefully). I am hoping for at least 80 when in good health, or am I being silly here? What are your thoughts as an experienced rider in the autumn of life so to speak?

[@timlubbers2884]

Yup, smell the roses, don't smear them on the helmet ... 🙏

[@ciaravino20757]

@@doordevloer9105 I’m a year older than you and returned to riding last year. I have the same concerns but I guess there’s no way to know. I think 80 if in good health is reasonable.

[@jamesmcgrath1952]

@@doordevloer9105 I have a total of five bikes (I'm selling two big cruisers). It's only my opinion but I think when you find riding a heavy bike more work than pleasure It's time not to quit riding but just to go lighter and maybe change the type of bike you ride. I just bught a Royal Enfield Continental GT 650. It weighs 455lbs wet. It's sure footed, the six speed transmission is smooth as glass. It hits a sweet spot with me and I've always had a soft spot for Cafe Racers. Ride safe buddy. Remember, It's about the ride. Not the destination.

[@philippebleau4809]

FortNine, MotoJitsu, McRider and us, the viewers - We are all in agreement. Nice to see.

[@intrudergrid9530]

I consider Fortnine, Motojitsu and your video on the subject complimentary. I ride a Harley RK in a very curved place of the earth 🇫🇷 and most of the time I hear the crotch rocket guys say I made a bad motorcycle choice. No, I bought the bike I've been longing for so long and I don't care if my lean angle is "only" 32 degrees. I go for the wind therapy and the sound of the engine and all of this in a beautiful country side. And if that means I can't keep up, well then I'm perfectly fine riding alone!

[@kenwittlief255]

all three videos are gratuitous clickbate The MSF beginners course teaches to sit up straight turning slow and to lean with the bike on road-speed curves and to lean into the curve if you think your pegs might scrape no new info in these videos

[@Lucas12v]

@@kenwittlief255 not everyone took that course or even if they did not everyone remembers and does everything correctly.

[@My347LX]

@@kenwittlief255 And the MSF class is building a foundation of knowledge to build on with experience and further training. There are too many people that yell "I took a basic class 30 years ago!" with the same intensity as, well, as anyone screaming "Look at me!" When was the last advanced riding class you took. In any advance class, there are concepts of braking while in a lean, accelerating while in a lean, using the brakes to change your line in a corner. None of those concepts are discussed in the Basic RiderCourse...and it the BRC is your only motorcycle training...well you are missing so much.

[@MOTOMINING]

@@kenwittlief255 It feels like it was my aunt was telling me how dangerous motorcycles are.

[@tvalecic]

"You are not on a track" - this is why I love and respect McRider!

[@dinbosco9658]

FortNine, MotoJitsu and MCrider together covered all aspects of it. Very informative and potentially life saving for riders. You guys rock !

[@captainblue2344]

Great channels. All of them.

[@swojchwat]

I would add dandanthefireman.

[@HawkOnHOG]

Fortnine puts entertainment and science into his videos, which I like, and DDTF gives amazing safe riding videos. MCrider, I feel gives a very straight forward take it or leave it advice videos which is why I am subscribed to all 3. Keep putting out the great information to give us riders so we have more tools to have safe fun at this amazing hobby!!!!

[@scotstewart4011]

Except they are to busy lane splitting and smashing mirrors, generally giving bikers a bad name.

[@Lucas12v]

@@scotstewart4011 who is? I don't watch motojitsu anymore but I've never seen Fortnine or MCRider do or advocate that. Slow speed lane splitting (filtering) is legal in some places so they may do that in some situations.

[@keitha6292]

From a retired police officer in the UK and motorcyclist: I've dealt with numerous fatal road accidents during my 30yrs , thank you for this video, well said

[@pierreross685]

Thanks for putting that into its proper perspective. Personally, I thought F9 was pretty clear. I mean he starts with Moto GP pics, explains what they are doing, and then basically says, "now let's talk about the rest of us". I am not sure why there was so much confusion, but apparently there was, and you did everyone a great service in breaking it down. Thanks for all your invaluable advice over the years!

[@MCrider]

I agree F9 even ties it up at the end by saying higher speeds require better body position.

[@thurney4343]

It's called a lack of listening skills. It's been a major problem in America for a long time! Nuance and intelligent speaking is apparently too much to take in for lots of people. BTW...you're correct in that FortNine was clear about this topic.

[@conViction0000]

@Shalltear Phantom Did you see his video? No drama at all and he explains why leaning upper body towards the inside of the turn can be utilized on the public roads without necessary race pace. So far the best explanation of this technique can be found at CanyonChasers channel. In this video of Kevin one thing makes me confused. Why he necessarily identify that technique with race pace and reckless riders?

[@tweetdezweet]

@@conViction0000 if you have to hang off your bike you have severely limited your maneuverability so that if something unexpected happens you're screwed... I remember clear as day how I was riding along at a pretty good pace but still within the legal limit on a twisty road when I took a blind right corner around the mountain and a truck coming the opposite side was halfway in my lane. I would have been dead meat if I had been hanging of my bike cause I wouldn't have been able to tighten my cornering... And yes the other guy would have been at fault but that doesn't do you any good when you go knocking on the pearly gates...

[@conViction0000]

​@@tweetdezweet Sorry I don't get your point. For me, beginner rider, it's rather obvious that by hanging off the bike I do reduce lean angle what gives me even greater error margin.

[@mermerac9610]

It took 3 videos but the puzzle is finally complete. Thanks to all 3 mentors involved. Stay smart and safe fellow riders.

[@PiXimperfect]

Major respect! This video sums it all together, and actually, you saved me from doing anything crazy in the future. This makes so much sense, and thank you for saving lives.

[@burhanahmed9356]

And you ride too. I know your perfected photoshop

[@tonylort]

Right on Kevin. This has become a very interesting conversation and your comments have added quite a bit to it. I watched Ryan F9 last night and MotoJitsu this morning and it caused me to pay attention to just how I was cornering; Interestingly it went from full counter balance to a slight combination of counter balance and neutral lean. If your response and the other two videos do nothing more than get people to pay attention to their riding style that will be enough. As an aside, I took a 3 day course from Sgt. Ryan Austin of Advanced Riding School, who Ryan F9 interviewed, up here in Beautiful British Columbia. Nothing like being taught by a certified Motor Officer Instructor and Enduro instructor.

[@mrcappetto]

Those are very wise words sir. As a 67 year old motorcycle rider of 50 years, I completely agree with you. Keep up the great informative videos.

[@dustinaadland9792]

As somebody who rides and cleaned people or what remains of people off the street I appreciate the thought about a proper time for riding fast at a trac vs the street. As someone who took a curve too fast and paid the price I exercise more caution and continue to learn as I like living. Also abs is nice…. Thanks for the videos

[@usernamemykel]

I've too much gut flowing over my abs - need to work out...

[@rogerp4612]

Unlike MotoJitsu, you seem to have actually watched and listened the Fortnine video before responding. As a consequence, your response makes perfect sense and isn't a disconnected rant. Thanks for your consistently excellent contributions to the MC universe.

[@MCrider]

Thanks Roger.

[@danielhilley4818]

I see I'm not the only one to get that impression.

[@gksalf10]

Same impression for me too

[@Invis_Space]

Here here. Well put.

[@alcion99]

That was my read as well. I think this will become one of those "life lessons" for MotoJ...u.

[@gregc6661]

Both FortNine and MotoJitsu’s videos were on point and very valuable for all riders, experienced and beginner alike. Your video was the perfect addition to both of them - there is absolutely no place whatsoever for riders to be going so fast on the street that they need to hang their bodies off the side of their bikes to remain on the road! Thanks for giving me an opportunity to add my piece, I’m an old guy who’s been riding bikes for 46 years and has been blessed to have the only two road accidents I’ve ever experienced happen before the age of 16. My brain has learned to obey the messages it receives from my sphincter muscle and that stands me in good stead. Thanks to all three video producers for promoting safety practices related to our wonderful sport of motorcycle riding!

[@patclair9555]

Messages from the sphincter. Nice turn of a phrase. Apt.

[@evopwrmods]

Accident statistics show overwhelming Automobiles cause most motorcycle accidents. So what you're saying by an offhand way is that it's ok for cars trucks 4 wheelers to speed all the time ? Cause they mostly all speed, but motorcycles nope gotta drive speed limit. This video says exactly nothing more than the other 2 videos. Sorry but this was a waste of time. If someone has to tell you to use common sense, then possibly you should stay in bed all day...

[@kcpl8er]

As a mechanic I've seen a front wheel embedded in the engine of the bike , the kid died instantly , T boned a car at over 120mph the street is NOT a race track

[@fabianmckenna8197]

Doing 50mph when I T boned a car which came out of a give way. Front wheel of the Kawasaki GT750 right into the engine and written off. Luckily I flew over the top and slid up the road on my back suffering only concussion. Be careful out there.

[@frankparnell7931]

The very best thing you said came at the end and I quote, “ride smart” goes a long way!! A older white haired Gentleman/Biker told me you have old riders and bold riders but not a whole lot of old bold riders!

[@mattrichman3985]

This video has boosted my respect for your perspective and approach to teaching skills to respect for you as a rider and how you handle yourself in general. Thank you for continuing an important conversation

[@williampoff3096]

Preach my brother, preach. I'm 56 and my days of dragging a knee are over. But I have a 27 year old son that his days of wanting to do it are just starting. I pray for him every day because I'm the one that got him into motorcycles. Motorcycling is a wonderful pasttime, but with it comes great responsibility, as you pointed out. God bless you my friend for teaching common sense riding. Prayers up for you and all my biker brothers and sisters. And prayers up for the young bikers that are like my boy. I pray they all make it home to their families.......... Safely.🙏

[@middleagemoto]

Buy that so of yours some track time. Knee dragging is for the track.

[@kellymeier579]

A great big Amen to you Kevin. I have watched both videos in question in the order they came out. I have to let you know that while watching MotoJitsu I was literally thinking "I wonder what Kevin's response would be?" Thank you for joining the discussion. The thing I appreciate is how you are being respectful to both while giving your considered viewpoint. I follow quite a few KZbin channels specific to motorcycling, but it's your voice I hear in my helmet as I'm riding. Thank you for all you do to help us ride safely.

[@hi90163]

Moto jitsu wasn’t advocating for dragging a knee on the street. He said slightly leaning off the bike allows it to remain more upright which is safer and gives the rider more grip.

[@carsons5750]

Yeah there’s a huge difference between dragging knee and just being a half-cheek off the seat to keep the bike more vertical while still being within safe limits.

[@lenex1]

He also said it was necessary when taking twisting mountain roads at 50,60,70 MPH. I agree with Kevin, that sounds irresponsible.

[@UFO-047]

I havent seen this latest one but motojitsu used to regulary say to have the handlebars as goal posts and move your head to the outside of either side when turning all the time. Even if you dont move your bum off the centre of the seat the top of your body moves alot to allow that to happen

[@hi90163]

@@lenex1 at those speeds you need to lean off a bit because if you leaned your bike over you would run out of tire. You can safely go 70 on twisties.

[@_desertork1839]

Exactly what i thought, i was confused with fortnine video because i wasn't sure this counter leaning technique would be any good at a higher speed than city riding and if he made a distinction it wasn't clear enough for me, specially when he gives an example of motocops riding this way all the time. I counterlean while riding slow just like motojitsu says, also in the dirt, but when going faster than 30 or 40mph i start to lean in, not dragging knee just moving my torso a little to the inside and pushing the outside peg with my leg, all of this within the posted speed limit. Counter leaning at these speeds feel completely unsafe for me, the bike reacts weird and it just feels unstable. A neutral position is alright too, just not counter leaning except while riding dirt.

[@TickyTack23]

I'm a new rider, I started learning by leaning, and didn't find it difficult to achieve, but found it difficult to make corrections in a turn without doing something sketchy. When I started keeping myself more upright, I had a dramatic improvement in control.

[@patadamson4005]

Great video Kevin. I am retired Highway Patrol (think state trooper) from NSW Australia. At one point in my career, if I worked a Sunday day shift, someone died on our local twisties, and guaranteed, it was a young guy in matching leathers with knee scrapers etc. That was 20 years ago and haunts me to this day. Shame they are not the kind of people subscribed to your channel mate.

[@MCrider]

I agree, life is precious and short. We need to protect it.

[@MotoFaith]

Your videos were the first ones I watched when I decided to start riding... a few years later, I still continue to learn from you. I'm fortunate that your lessons were one of the first to shape my learning experience, because they instilled a strong and deep sense of responsibility and self-discipline. Thanks a lot and regards from the Philippines!

[@MCrider]

Great to hear!

[@jackgonzales-alexander1104]

I didn’t realise MC rider did a video about how to fit twelve people and a dog on a motorbike!? 🤣 Just kidding, I’m sure you are far more competent than I! Safe riding!

[@mmcguire5687]

Ryan F9 also interjects humour into his vids that some have a hard time deciphering and so they think that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

[@ppower7945]

Dude's on a whole other level than most of them. Smart guy.

[@joemann7971]

@@ppower7945 dude is smart, for sure. He is a physicist, after all. Motorcycles and physics seem to go hand in hand, so, I do think he knows more than the average rider about the physics at play.

[@doriangray2020]

Honestly if you can understand his humor then it’s not hard to decipher.

[@tieoneon1614]

He breaks down the science behind the physics. While others just react to his videos with their own LOL. Says a lot about his channel. Im glad for him, every video is pure entertainment and his editing and humor is completely original

[@usernamemykel]

@@joemann7971 He's a physicist, not an economics guy?????????????????????????

[@MotusOperandi]

Thanks Kevin, your explanation of this is perfect. Thanks again for taking the time to address this bad habit of motorcyclists treating public roads like private race tracks, especially the danger they pose to others. Well done!

[@senthilbp]

All three of you had something informative to tell us, presented in different perspectives, so that we ride safer on the road. Thanks a lot. Keep up the good work.

[@JamesCouch777]

I'd rather ride to live so I can ride the next day, if that makes sense.

[@3RDOOR]

All the sense in the world 👍🏻☕️

[@GBeWinginIt]

Appreciate the response. Helps put street riding which is the majority of the riding done by the viewers of the video in perspective. Thanks again.

[@WDXash]

I’m an ex racer, ex police advanced rider and current track day instructor. Sir, you are absolutely spot on! Thank you for putting this out 👍

[@WDXash]

@@karlkilner9522 Hi Karl, I’m not sure I know the answer to this, but road skills and road safety surely must translate, to some degree, from one country to another. I’m sure that there will be differences in training between countries, depending on their respective highway codes, but fundamentally there must be a common objective that they try to achieve. Even here in the UK I was taught during my various police driving courses (there are several) things that I see virtually every other driver / motorcyclist (and I’m talking probably about 99% of them) do, that I was taught not to do. So, even here in the UK there seems to be different guidance going on! Drivers and riders need to know their respective country’s Highway Code, but machine control is also very important. As you’ll know, the latter is something that can be taught and practiced. No one taught me how to race a bike but I was that interested in it I read about techniques and practiced them - improvement follows. Like practising a musical instrument, the more you practice and reading music (the Highway Code) the better one will become. This can be speeded up if you have a good instructor. Someone who shares their wealth of experience and already held wisdom on the subject. Personally, I use a blend of techniques when I ride (or drive). For example, a recent Motojistsu video highlights that trail braking is not for beginners, and I have to agree with him. It’s definitely not taught by police, or is it in Roadcraft, although I use it myself on the road, to some degree, because it allows a smoother and more progressive flow that isn’t as staged. This is a subject that I find very interesting and I enjoy helping others out on the track. I’m not teaching Highway Code or Roadcraft on the track, it’s all about machine control, riding techniques and reading the track, which to some degree can be converted to an advantage on the road. Safety is always first and paramount. Your question has got me thinking… you are right, I can’t recall seeing police tuition videos. I suppose that there is an assumption that anyone who is interested in improving their riding technique will already have a good Highway Code knowledge and the rest of the learning can be focussed on motorcycle control together with some well founded expert advice.

[@WDXash]

@@karlkilner9522 ah, I see! The police don’t actually teach trail braking, they use something called Road Craft “the system” they call it, you have probably heard of it, or know it. It is a safe system but it’s a bit like painting by numbers and removes intuition. I retired from the police a few years ago but was a detective, so was more undercover on motorcycles and quite pleased that I didn’t patrol around on those marked bikes - not my bag, but a job that had to be done, I suppose. Trail braking is like anything else, it’s about practice, experience and being mindful. The police don’t teach it because it has too many variables and unfortunately, although everyone is trained to a high standard there will still always be those who just can’t grasp it as much as others at the other end of the spectrum of ability. Teach loads of people, over lots of years to ride police bikes but give them a system to follow that mitigates the risk to some degree. Teach them all to trail brake and I’m sure the accident rate would increase by a percentage. The Job (the police) like to emphasise safety. It’s only because I did some racing that, on the road, I blend the two disciplines to my own advantage. I obviously don’t trail brake as heavily on the road as I do on the track. Anyway, safe riding - see, I’m at it now 😁

[@peterdoherty7282]

Awesome commentary as usual Kev. Well thought out and articulated. You make “us” think… great work! Pete

[@mirkosrndovic]

Let us all thank to Ryan FortNine for making a video that sparks so much good responses, and by my own humble opinion, Kevin just gave the best answer.

[@MCrider]

Ryan releases great videos, as does MotoJitsu.

[@mirkosrndovic]

@@MCrider Of course, they are very good. I can not be happier when new F9 video comes out, and I practice MotoJitsu belts on a parking lot. Add you, Kevin, DanDan the Fireman and NothingToProve and we can consider ourselves very lucky to have best mentors.

[@1angryscotsman]

I watch them all. They all are entertaining and knowledgeable. I'm done with ripping everywhere. Now I'm about cruising and being safe. 90 mph is a good cruising speed. I dont trust cagers. Corners I take it easy as wildlife has caused too many puckers.

[@rcnelson]

Good advice for the squids who think they're racing at the Isle of Man.

[@Wheel-1]

Much respect for Isle of Man ... What an awesome event & Riders with nerves of steel .

[@rgh622]

It’s called thinning the herd….

[@thebobs9343]

@@rgh622 Culing, I think...

[@jeffnelson4418]

Well said, and thank you for adding your wisdom to the conversation. I don’t have anywhere near the qualifications that you, Greg or Ryan do, but in my 45+ years of riding I have never felt the need to lean off the bike for a corner. Probably that’s because I don’t ride sport bikes or do track days. I really felt like I was the audience Ryan was talking to, and what he said fit my experience perfectly. I have learned a lot also from MotoJitsu, but I felt the intended audience there was maybe a bit different. At the end of the day, as an experienced rider who still wants to learn as much as I can, I absolutely appreciate what all three of you gentlemen do through your channels! Keep up the great work you all do. Not only does it help us riders improve, but I truly believe you guys save lives with what you teach. Hope to see you on the road one day! And greetings from BC, Canada!

[@sebastienfournier9421]

I do track days and definitely do not feel the need to lean off the bike on the road!

[@johnpagejr.7628]

Thanks Kevin well said. What a great response to the other two videos. I had never totally understood the proper way to lean in a corner but now it all makes sense. As one other said it made me pay attention to what I actually do when I am cornering. Three very excellent video's.

[@OccultEngineering]

I live 10 minutes from the Northern foot of Blood Mountain in North Georgia. Every weekend another street Rossi wannabe turns their motorcycle into a single use airplane. What more can we do but ride responsibly and do our best to set the example? Kevin, I have been watching your videos for a few years now and have great sppreciation for what your efforts bring to the motorcycle community. I literally had my better half (at the time) watch every one of your videos before putting her in the saddle. I have taught many folks how to ride, but this time with the knowledgd foundation fresh in my pupils mind... it was effortless! She has at this point outgrown the 650 Savage and moved up to riding my 750 katana. Thank you for doing what you do. Hope to see you on the road some day. Rubber side down!

[@STho205]

Heard that. Ellijay/Fort Mountain myself. Just riding those switchbacks is how i get home everyday. Every time i loop ride to US19 Blood Mtn via 180 i hear guys winding up the grinders on faring race bikes and just wince till i hear a bang. Most of the time they make it, but too many times they don't. That straight suburban run up from Atlanta and the straight shot from Knoxville to Deals Gap seems to create the greatest dangers...sport bikes and race sport cars. We know how to ride, it's familiar and these curves are just part of life. For the cityboys it seems a game or a need for danger or impressing each other. Too many times have i rounded a corner to find: A parked UPS truck A vehicle turning around Gravel washout A bolder A flock of deer A bear For me to take corners faster than i can swerve or stop. I see lots of local boys on sportbikes that aren't intent on killing themselves... But the tourist is when I quickly pull over and let em pass.

[@OccultEngineering]

@@STho205 I avoid ATL like the plague, but when I do have to make the trip down there my preferred route is over the mountain then the copper mine/frogtown route to delonega. Seems less crazy and monotonous than the 4 lane. I'm always up to meet more conscientious riders. If you are too and ever over near Blairsville hit me up. I typically don't venture farther than blue ridge in that direction.

[@STho205]

@@OccultEngineering that's your good loop ride from Blairsville. 19 to 180 to Suches, 60 to Morganton/BR and home. Ellijay loop is Fort Mountain, up 411 to, Ocoee Gorge, BR, home on Boardtown. I usually loop up to Two Wheels of Suches once every two weeks and once a month to Blood then Dahlonega or Meeks Park Blairsville

[@STho205]

@@OccultEngineering oh, Fort Mountain has about 100 curves in 15 miles. Not quite Deals Gap but a heck of a better view in most of it...45speed limit, most drive/ride 50 max. And I've seldom seen a speed trap. Shhhhh.

[@nutmagnet22]

@@STho205 A lot safer to ride than Deals gap .I've been riding north Georgia for over 50 years(yep,I'm old) and I rarely ride on the weekends on the named roads.Too many "over the yellow line"incidents.It's getting like that on the forest roads with a bunch of Graham Jarvis wannabes.Ride alert my friends.

[@dougdavis2973]

Kevin, this was another great video and the best of advice as usual. Thanks for all you do for motorcyclists!

[@wflentge]

Thanks and I hope the ones that need to hear this, actually watch this.

[@noedle6669]

Hello Kevin, I highly appreciate your genuine ! concern about the wellbeing and safety of your viewers and their loved ones. And you are 100% correct. Public roads are no place for speeding.

[@defaultuser3410]

I love your videos, and how you have a genuine concern for other riders, keep up the good work!

[@RE650NZGraeme]

That simplifies it right down! And puts it all into perspective. Thanks Kevin, always valuable insights into motorcycling safety.

[@mjoa1]

Actually it oversimplifies it, and that's not good. Leaning in can be used for safety itself in the right context, it's not at all that black and white and "simple". The original video everyone seems to need to respond to covers this, and a whole lot more, and allows for the nuance of context. This kind of black and white thinking when it comes to riding is not helping anyone gain real skill.

[@RE650NZGraeme]

@@mjoa1 I have been taught to lean the shoulders over into the corner, relaxed on the bars, weight on inside cheek, and try to be smooth with gentle braking and wide entry, then accelerate out. Lots of gorge/valley corner rides in rural New Zealand.

[@stephencummins7589]

You three guys ROCK! This last video although sad and somber sure wraps up the narrative extremely well. Thank you to all, you have made it safer for all of us I am sure!

[@michaeltrivette1728]

I agree with 2/3 of this statement

[@morganminamyer3117]

I'm 65 and just bought my first bike since I was a teenager. It's a 2009 vtx 1300r and I watch your videos regularly and have great respect for what you teach and how you do it. I love riding, and you must respect your bike and the road. It's the greatest feeling in the world if you don't abuse it. Thanks so much for your help. Morgan

[@COYGunners]

How can 20 persons thumb down on this? This guy just said “don’t be an idiot, act responsibly in the streets and enjoy your riding” quite a nice piece of advise.

[@JacobSnover]

Because it's a response to a response to a video. Why couldn't he just release his own video about rider safety. This video would have more impact as a standalone video, instead it comes off as someone trying to get the views because of a clever title. He acts like Fortnine left vital information out when his video was just more to the point.

[@nutmagnet22]

Go to any stopping point of riders and listen to the talk.Lots of highway hero's out there.

[@gburcaw]

20 idiots.

[@christianfritz6333]

20 people who might not be here for next weeks video?

[@NoNonsense_01]

Because it is bad advice to associate lean with track or high speed.

[@rickha3216]

So well said! I am a new rider and was having second thoughts about my decision after viewing so many videos of young riders involved in terrible accidents. It occurred to me that there was a common factor, riding well above posted speed limits Most of the well known KZbin channels that like to talk about the importance of improving technique and practicing BUT they rarely take on the issue of speed as a major issue among riders. I have a car that has a top end speed of about 140 mph. Just because my car can go that fast do I? NO. Yet virtually every channel, even the channels promoting skill development routinely talk about skills needed to ride fast (translate - well above the posted speed limit) through the twisties. Your video will help save lives. The others will continue to encourage young men to push the limits, “practicing” race techniques on the open road. Some will die.

[@vxn675]

First off, I appreciate all of the work MC Rider puts into his videos. He’s knowledgeable, detailed and straightforward. I’ve been riding for 15 years (commuting 110 miles round trip into Los Angeles, long distance touring along with local canyon rides). While I do find Fortnine and MotoJitsu videos to be entertaining, I often refer back to books by the old school motorcycle training authors. I’ve listed some below (in no particular order). Each of the authors discusses the pros and cons of adjusting body position for cornering and to what degree for street riding. Nick Ienatsch-Sport Riding Techniques Lee Parks-Total Control Pat Hahn-How to Ride a Motorcycle Ken Condon-Riding in the Zone Reg Pridmore-Smooth Riding Sonny Barger-Let’s Ride Bernt Spiegel-The Upper Half of the Motorcycle Keith Code and David Hough also have detailed books at opposite ends of the spectrum (track day riding and street riding).

[@jeibertjaramillo2046]

Thank you good man, I´ve been trying to cope with a riding style, and your words made clear what I need to practice, you have saved me thanks, greetings from Colombia

[@matthiasweiss1144]

"Leaning off" isn't the same as "dragging knee". You can always move some mass into the turn by shifting your body weight to help the motorcycle stay more upright --- that's what dirt bike riders use their inside leg for.

[@NanaRides]

Perfect response! I agree with everything you said. *standing ovation* No one should be doing racetrack speeds on any highway. No matter your skill level, because it's not all about you. Period. End of story.

[@j-baz6454]

A great addition to @FortNine's post, and to @MotoJitsu's follow-up. All good intentions and I respect all three of you. I'm a new rider here, and this information could save my life. Much thanks to all of you. We appreciate you.

[@Fireflycbr]

Thanks for this advice and info. I'm entering into the motorcycle world and am soaking up the wisdom

[@luizdejesus6240]

"Race pace" is the key phrase. Even on a curvy road, if you need race technique to navigate it, you are riding irresponsibly too fast... there is a word for people like that. Use your imagination.

[@keithmills778]

“Organ donor”?

[@ktkace]

@@keithmills778 close enough but my bet is it starts with a and ends with hole.

[@reader_cat]

@@keithmills778 if only they stayed intact...

[@geraldwest3428]

Thank you big time for an excellent follow up that I needed to hear. You are a true Champ mister!

[@MCrider]

Glad it was helpful!

[@TheOnceAndFutureDoug]

Valuable wisdom. I'm a new rider (started in April) and this was my take-away too, which it's great to know I've been getting the right idea from the people I've been learning from.

[@monzadh]

i think this is your best video ever, great response to the other vids which were great as well but this is gold my good sir.

[@yankhofreemansomanje6433]

From motojitsu, my take has always been that riding is an intelligent discipline. To look out for stupid and not be one myself. From u it is that riding responsibly is riding skillfully, strategically and knowledgeably. To have enough depth of skill in my box but ride to need only half of it. I have much respect for the both of you. Keep doing the work you are doing

[@hellbilly6532]

100% agree, I live in Tn & in my rural area it’s not uncommon to round a curve to find a tractor pulling a hay bailer doing less than 5 mph, keep up the good work

[@YTjndallas]

Very well stated. Thank you. Brought a tear to my eye. 🥲 Your service saves lives to those who listen. Thank you!

[@stuartgc8950]

The contribution of these three videos combined, results in a very useful and informative lesson on the merits of skilful safe cornering. Many thanks to all three.

[@MCrider]

Glad it was helpful!

[@BeingHumanInSouthAfrica]

Thanks MCRider. I love what you, MotoJitsu and FortNine have done. Shared. Debated. Very well done.

[@LS-uv9gg]

This was a truthful, long overdue, and excellent video.

[@mechanicalman1068]

Amen amen amen! I look back at how I used to treat California mountain roads as my own racetrack and can’t believe I made it to 51. I know people who died or were paralyzed because of this. All three videos together really cover all the bases. One thing I’d add is if you’re on twisty roads going at a quick yet responsible pace, if you’re in a neutral position there is still room to move down and in or up and out if things get tight because of obstacles or other surprises. If you’re already down you could be screwed: it’s easier to go wider if necessary than tighter. Another race technique that isn’t necessarily appropriate for the street is hitting the apex. That’s great on the track, where there are turn workers, plenty of vision and no obstacles or vehicles coming in the other direction. Brett Ttacks has a great video on this. It’s all about vision and control and not outriding your brakes.

[@nomoretax]

I would have expected nothing less from you. A well measured, diplomatic, hard hitting, mature, professional message.

[@thanosetsitty1896]

That’s my worst fear, is when somebody fails to make that turn and staying in their lane. Right up there with a deer running out in front of me.

[@nutmagnet22]

I had a friend killed by a deer last year.The deer t boned him and knocked him off.

[@Lucas12v]

There's tons of deer where i live. Makes me reluctant to ride in the dark.

[@stevegordon2644]

That is what track days are for not the street

[@daviddaniels4358]

Very well put sir I enjoy all of your wisdom and straight to the point videos we should never put our thrill seeking above the safety of others around us and going back to our families at the end of our ride.

[@royromero8496]

Thank you sir I have much respect for you and you teaching,s 50+ years riding and racing for me experience has taught me to think before you do something so yo don't hurt any one and you don't get hurt so lean which ever way you have to don't hurt anyone!

[@VRide2017]

Totally agree with you here mate! Road isn't a place to muck around! Ride safe everyone!

[@iambigryan]

Ok, so who's going to do the response video to MC Rider's response to MotoJitsu's response to FortNine?

[@mmlvx]

MikeOnBikes hopefully!

[@paulwright1907]

During my first motorcycle trip to the Cherohala Skyway I came across an accident scene where I saw a motorcycle's body still on the road. After I went past the accident I passed the ambulance coming the other direction. He was driving very slowly (no need to hurry). This type of experience helps you maintain your focus while riding.

[@fictiveaudio]

Excellent response, thank you for contextualising the issue and bringing safety into the topic.

[@Gkitchens1]

Max wrist had another bad crash just a couple weeks ago due to driving in the street like it's a track. He was pretty lucky to get minimal injuries this time around. Granted his last big accident wasn't his fault, it was still the result of racing in the street. I follow all of you guys in this community because I really wanted to get a bike a year or 2 ago but decided the risks are too much for me right now, and I really don't have a use for a bike anyway I never go anywhere without my family. But I keep following all of you guys because yall are like a second family to me.

[@pilotdane1]

Kevin - Thank you so much for "Chiming in" on this topic / on Monday. 60 years "Young" - Been riding since I was about 5 - While on the road (Dual Sport Guy) I have never, EVER, had to lean like that on the road. You put it very correctly - You are simply riding way to fast (paraphrased)..... Don't even need to watch the other videos, only yours. Point made....

[@nutmagnet22]

The times I've had to over lean was when I screwed up.

[@mmlvx]

Actually, I think you should watch the Fort9 video -- it's an interesting exploration of leaning-in vs. neutral lean with bike vs. counter-lean, very well done with multiple examples of each and when and why it would be appropriate.

[@nutmagnet22]

@@mmlvx I'v watched all three.Again every time I had to over lean a bike I had either been to fast on approach or over rode the apex.Over lean isn't lean,neutral or counter.It's leaning the bike more than what the curve called for due to my mistake.

[@buzz-lh6rc]

Everyone who heads up to the mountains for two wheel fun should watch this. Very good info you added to the discussion as always!

[@Gunne.r]

I have already watched The FortNine and Motojitsu videos and I wanted to tell you thanks for your insight and tying it all together.

[@mototea5517]

I cant believe MotoJitsu response to MC Rider! 😱 Here's what he said: "What he said is coming from an incredibly limited perspective and understanding and skill…both of what you quoted and so many other parts of the video." This is what he responded to a comment I left on his video.

[@MCrider]

Since we don't know each other I am not sure how he comes to any of those conclusions...but, Oh well.

[@mototea5517]

@@MCrider I’m glad channels like yours exist. Thank you for what you do.

[@Lucas12v]

Motojitsu seems highly opinionated to me. I think he's a good rider with good information but i just don't like him. I can get good information from other channels like this one with out the arrogance.

[@MCrider]

@Lucas, Glad to have you as a viewer.

[@spryh6742]

I found myself panned by motojitsu simply for repeating what@@MCrider was saying in this video: that if the argument between leaning and counter-leaning is a matter of surviving the curve, you're riding too fast. I have a ton of admiration for the skills that MotoJ teaches, but with great power comes great responsibility...and sometimes that point is lost over there ("pace" is not the holy grail after all). I believe that is what Kevin is injecting into the conversation.

[@imgzrona09uc72]

The people who require this message probably do not watch Kevin's channel.

[@MCrider]

That is why I need all of you to share the videos. ;)

[@dannywallaard]

By the way, I forgot to say that I really like your video’s and the information you’re providing. The way you balance the riding techniques and safety in your explanations is top notch 👍 Also in this topic you nailed it. Thanks for your video’s and I’m looking forward to see the next one.

[@alpendz8105]

What is the recommended speed in corners specially high-ways, so that we can say that we are not speeding up?

[@billdonohue2389]

Absolutely 100% correct. That’s why I don’t ride the Dragon or the Sisters any more.

[@shadowrider7072]

I hear that! I live close to the dragon but have never ridden on it. Even turned down my best friend's invitation to go riding with his MC there last month. I'm not afraid of curvy roads, but I'm terrified of idiots with "something to prove" sharing the road with me. I can dodge a pothole or break for an animal, but a guy speeding head-on directly at me in a blind corner because he's trying to beat a timer? Much more difficult.

[@STho205]

@@gohjohan Deals Gap has challenges at speeds if you reject the posted signs and TSP ticket writers... But at normal speeds it is a rather boring curvy section of 129. A tree tunnel except for a few overlooks. Fontana Lake, Moonshiners, Unicoi and Cherohala are much more fulfilling rides near Robbonsville for everyone but the double rr track on street bikes. I just considered Deals the road to Maryville and Vanore... Until someone built a biker bar and made it famous.

[@westonelliot2713]

We love the sisters but just late when it's empty

[@JeffMarcum]

Yammie Noob, Max Wrist, and others like them, cater to viewers who have not matured beyond the age of 17. Immature viewers don't understand or don't care that their riding style puts others at risks.

[@G1nger519]

You should take yammie noob off that, he has changed since his accident and it is clear he advertises safety above all now compared to the. Time before his crash.

[@teneridertravels]

Kevin, thanks for emphasizing it's not only about YOU dying on the road, but that it involves so much more people and affects their lives as well! You've nailed it.

[@SamtheoriginalClassic]

Thanks for adding to the conversation. I watched the other two videos and immediately went out to play with counter-balance. It's good to hear that I don't have to ride like an idiot to learn more skills and become a better rider.

[@mfennroberts]

I'll have to go watch Motojitsu's video. Already watched Fortnine's. Thanks for your point of view and I agree with you 100%. Luckily, in my 15 and 1/2 year career, I have not had to deal with a motorcycle fatality. It could happen any day, anywhere, anytime though.

[@motoryzen]

TLDR of that Motojitsu ( response to fortnine video) is that Greg Widmar ( real name of Fast Eddie) did not disagree with Ryan "F9" but specified at HIGHER speeds..you NEVER want to counter balance....never...in fact the faster the speed to whatever xy extent = you lean WITH..the bike or stay neutral with it..depending on the speed+road and weather conditions. That is the only thing Greg specified that he doesn't recall Ryan f9 saying in Fortnine's video. I don't remember off hand either *shrugs* But Greg explains in great detail imo.

[@mike-uh8rk]

Dont waist your time

[@rgh622]

Michael, where in the world do you work the streets for 15 1/2 years and not see a motorcycle fatality? I’m not criticizing just awestruck.

[@mfennroberts]

@@rgh622 Luck of the draw. I've had every other type, just not motorcycle. No real highways in my city. The high speed stuff happens out in the country usually. The sheriffs and state troopers handle those.

[@joemann7971]

@@motoryzen F9 specified it very clearly "before the Americans sue my antlers off.." He specifies to still lean with the bike if you're going near the limit of the bike, or you don't trust the edge of the tires. F9 did an excellent job explaining himself, but I could see how less intelligent riders would need it explained again.

[@stevegordon2644]

Thank you Kevin for Spreading motorcycle knowledge and the word of God I believe your channel can save lives AND souls.

[@MCrider]

I hope so!

[@nelsonphilip4520]

Well done presentation. You nailed it with that closing tag line, "ride safe; ride smart" Nuff said.

[@matopendic8669]

Isbit ok to use counterleaning ag around 35-40 mph speeds?

[@AT2Productions]

It's funny how three people can have the same message about the same topic, yet some people listening don't recognize this.

[@inn0v8tiv]

I have never understood riders who speed on public roads. They just got rocks in their head.... literally

[@3RDOOR]

Hard to imagine the need indeed to ignore learning how to enjoy motorcycles truly to just waste a life because you didn’t deserve to appreciate yourself by giving yourself the piece of respect pie and doing it right bye not being that guy :-) practice always makes perfect. Walmart parking lots and covid highways 🤙🏻👊🏻

[@fredkilian4049]

Got rocks in their head and gravel under their skin .

[@UsernameRK07]

That hit the nail right on the head. I liked all 3 of the videos and this one summed the first 2 up perfectly!

[@jamesbonanno3359]

It takes the older gentleman to put the ribbons on the package and make sure we continue to be safe and differentiate between the street and the track. This gentleman is genuinely concerned about motorcycle riders safety and the community at large. God-bless. I follow all the channels mentioned, but this one always hits me right between the eyes with some good common sense. Always the quintessential gentleman.

[@DoctorMotorcycle]

I used to be a speed demon on the street. Had a handful of close calls but nothing too serious. Even when I was riding fast, it was still at a pace that was about 80% effort. My grandpa told me to never attempt to ride a motorcycle at 100%, especially if you're alone. I think that advice has kept me alive through the years that I owned many 1000cc Race Replicas and Turbocharged bikes. I digress. Anyways, I got a ticket for reckless driving on my Ducati Hypermotard when I was 21 and at the time didn't have the extra cash to spend on a lawyer (I couldn't afford the Duc either lol, that's another story). So I ended up pleading guilty and had to pay the associated fines and get 6 or 8 points on my license I don't remember, and mandatory traffic school. That was the turning point for me. My insurance quadrupled, most companies wouldn't even cover me. Lesson learned. The street is no place to advance your skills, and if you think it is, you better be ready to shell out some $$$$.

[@annaval119]

This is a rare and honest account. The street is not a racing course

[@starlordnetzero9633]

So I watched FortNine and MotoJitsu and now your video. I do not believe Fortnine was in any way advocating leaning off the bike at high speed on the street - rather my take away when I watched the Fortnine video was that counter leaning was faster in terms of getting the bike to change direction/turn than leaning into the corner. For a number of reasons I do not agree that it is a good idea to counter lean at speed around a corner - but to your point - I believe that what Fortnine was referring to was the case of slightly moving your upper body off axis from the center of gravity of the motorcycle and leaning into the corner. NOT having a leg down, or hanging off the bike in a corner. In other words, Fortnine was comparing what we as riders do particularly in twistees, shifting you upper body slightly off axis in the direction of the corner and leaning into the corner while turning, to the case of counter leaning. My issue with counter leaning at speed is that you are leaning the bike, pushing the bike down, using more traction and limiting options if braking, swerving or further leaning is needed - it’s much better to keep the bike more upright versus pushing it into a deeper lean for the same curve.

[@RacerJuan42]

This…I sure hope people don’t go away thinking counter leaning always makes sense and is safer at any pace on a public road….it isn’t. I get it for quick low speed maneuvering though…hence why it’s a big part of motorcycle police training.

[@fredkilian4049]

You are completely confused !!

[@RacerJuan42]

@@fredkilian4049 Care to explain rather than just telling people they’re confused? Or are you suggesting riding with a crossed up body position is always the “right” way to ride on public roadways?🤔(btw, I disagree)

[@mmlvx]

@@RacerJuan42 - Counterleaning is good for emergency swerves / obstacle avoidance

[@RacerJuan42]

@@mmlvx I agree on that👍🏽

[@johnhooper5073]

Amen, brother! I’ve been riding and racing both on and off-road on two and four wheels for over 50 years. I’ll have to admit that when I was younger, I didn’t always use good common sense. About a year ago I started riding on the street again after many years of enduro only riding. I really don’t like sharing the road with cars as they often do what they do, but listening and applying what gents like you teach makes it safer and more enjoyable. Thanks for your help! John

[@jeffstieren4474]

Very well put. Be respectful to others as we are out to enjoy the ride and come back home safe. Thanks for your videos.

[@jeremyromand]

Wow! I’m kinda surprised that the F9 caused such a fuss (by Moto J and crew). Thanks for this response. Knee down is not a life saving all important skill to learn. Respect for others and the road is a skill all of us need and can grow.

[@steve00alt70]

You have to learn everything and every skill possible on a bike

[@jeremyromand]

@@steve00alt70 I would agree to a point. But not all bikes are made to do the same thing. Dragging a knee doesn’t help you if all you ride is a bagger, and ADV bikes are another animal as well. It’s important to learn to ride the bike you ride. If you can’t handle a bike then don’t ride it.

[@hogwildbowhunter]

Simply put a race track is a controlled environment the streets are an uncontrollable environment. Ride accordling….great video Kevin!

[@C64SX]

Watching all these videos about proper technique in the curves, trail braking and so on I often wonder - where do you find these amazing roads where you can actually practice this in a safe manner? Not around where I live, that's for sure. Glad to hear your input in this video!

[@glennmiddleton5634]

Kevin, Thank you. I've been riding for 50 years because I ride responsibly. There are enough risks to riding so I really don't want to get fitted for my halo & wings just yet. Cheers!

[@michaellee3687]

Well said Kevin!

[@itsjustme5022]

i agree w/ this.. everytime i ride my bike, the finish line is always home.. going home w/out a scratch and w/ a smiling face so that you can ride again the next day.. the only thing i use on the streets is racing line for better visibility on curves the rest is safe street riding... nothing beats going home happy everyday.. 🙂🙂🙂

[@Dogatemyhomework927]

10 months later, thank you for that!! I’ve watched both of those videos and also damn near been the victim on twisty roads of those guys racing on the roads…

[@metalheartmachine]

Well said. It is so true, that it is a mix of both and must be properly applied in the right setting. Thank you.