RESTORING 35-year-old Boat Beams: Putting It BACK Together | E028

Rebuilding the interior floor beams in our old boat, Antidote (that rhymed quite nicely I must say…).
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[@scottcates]

The toilet flange is a nice touch haha. But seriously, that is a good chunk of PVC anchor chain pipe you have there...and PVC pipe is fairly easily bent with the application of heat. I have a specially-made PVC pipe heater for that purpose.

[@livingforsail]

Yeah. Haha. I had to laugh when I saw that too. It works 🤷‍♂️ I haven’t spent much time bending PVC pipe but I’m sure it works well. Any tips on your heater setup?

[@666kty3]

Tip for thought. A straight pipe collects less debris and build up. My advice. Every run..as straight as possible, with less bends etc. Less joints, less leak points, less cost.

[@livingforsail]

Thank you for the tip! 🙏 I appreciate that. Cheers! 🙌👍

[@CaptainDustinAllen]

Great video, love to see the mind of a mechanical engineer. I always tell my clients to buy a boat from an engineer if possible. Y’all really go in-depth on everything. Most people wouldn’t even think to touch the chain locker, y’all not only touched it but even had a mock up with ideas to make it better, love it, keep it the great content coming for us obsessed sailors. As for the chain tube, I’d certainly keep it straight and centered for a multitude of reasons explained in the comments. Great build though y’all, love the details, love the effort, love the little things. Spectacular A+ and what an awesome boat. Stoked for y’all. Cheers

[@livingforsail]

Thank you so much! 🙏🙏 I appreciate that a lot! I figured… why not start at the front I guess 🤷‍♂️ haha.

[@SailingMagicCarpet]

Nice progress Jon! Love the camera work too👌🏽 Cheers

[@livingforsail]

Thanks guys. That means a lot from you guys! It looks like you guys are getting closer to the water!! 🙌🙌🙌

[@martyb3783]

Great video as always. Nice work on the beams, they look great!

[@livingforsail]

Thank you! 🙏 much appreciated 🙌👍

[@waynem604]

The inside of your first moisture meter looks so crazy... like someone's home DIY project. 😮

[@livingforsail]

Yeah. Haha. I think they were all hand made in Canada. It looks like they might be out of business now…

[@andrewmoylan6295]

Your new workshop will definitely help you out with these side projects, Jon. It was well worth doing, good stuff

[@livingforsail]

Thanks !🙏 it feels good to have the shop back in order. 🙌

[@larrygraham1580]

I am in the midst of replacing my cockpit core on my old Hughes 38 with 1/2 inch Coosa. While watching this video for the first 16 minutes I was thinking Coosa has the perfect properties for your locker deck. Then I see you decided Coosa too. The product is stronger than 1/2 inch marine ply and is totally waterproof. Nice choice for your rebuild. Tabbing with it would have been good too but glad you opted to put more life and use of the balsa.

[@livingforsail]

It’s a great product for sure in a lot of ways! All the best with your cockpit rebuild.

[@s.simsmamasboy]

Dip the aluminum tube in thined paint in a pvc pipe dip tank/tube and hang it to dry. Then paint exterior with your paint as always. You can always use left over paint later. Oh...by the way you dont have to fill pipe with paint...Just do the math to get one side of the sq. tub covered while laying horizontal.

[@livingforsail]

🤔 that is a very interesting idea. I like it! Thanks!🙏

[@s.simsmamasboy]

@livingforsail You could also still use cosa board n sandwich it to floor that you have to make a lap joint with a few pieces of framework underneath and leave the pipe where it is. That way you don't have to worry about the angle the chain forms and height it takes to cause it to fall. Different sizes forms a different angle.BUT you still lose storage aera in the center .

[@livingforsail]

@@s.simsmamasboy Thanks! So many options!!! Haha.

[@juusol989]

Less talk and more action.❤

[@livingforsail]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/b5e5d2B8dsaNeq8si=XjmPLbTmF6Pa8f0P

[@juusol989]

@@livingforsail kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6SVl3-Zfrema7csi=GzlHIAhcuztwwsGb

[@torstenhansen4308]

Nice work on that aluminum beam but if you prefer wood you may want to look at alternatives to teak such as cumaru or padouk. They are much more affordable, reasonably rot resistant, and easy to work with. I am using them on my project and for all these protected, sealed structural members I find them more than adequate.

[@haydenwatson7987]

You could greatly accelerate the drying process of long slender pieces of wood by making a vacuum chamber. at a 30"hg vacuum, water boils at room temperature so any moisture is converted into gas and can be sucked out. I would use a 4"ø ABS pipe with a fixed cap on one end that had a fitting mounted to attach the vacuum hose to. On the other end, I would install a threaded cap. For the vacuum pump, I use an HVAC pump from Harbor Freight which sells for $100 and is often on sale for less. I also use the same pump to repair all of my HVAC stuff, so it continues to pay dividends. I used this method to dry out a 6' x 2' area of my plywood cored deck that showed as fully saturated on my moisture meter. I put 1/4" aquarium hoses into every bolt hole and one deck crack that had water leaking out of it. They were sealed in place with a bit of butyl tape and connected together with aquarium tubing connectors. In the chilly PNW, I would turn on the pump any day that was sunny and above 60º. At the end of the day, I would turn it off and change the few ounces of oil in the pump which would get milky from the water coming out of the deck. With that very large surface and very few attachment points, it took all summer to dry the deck out but, in the end, the wettest point was down at 10% and the lowest was 0%. I then used the same system to infuse ultra-low viscosity epoxy into voids in the deck. Starting at the furthest port from the pump and working closer, I was able to vacuum almost 3-pints of epoxy into the honeycomb left by the wood rot in the core. Now, 10-years later, it is still bone dry and solid as a rock. I love Physics.

[@livingforsail]

Yeah that is a great idea to dry out the lumber. I may just do that too if I have more soggy beans ahead. Cheers! 🙏👍🙌

[@haydenwatson7987]

@@livingforsail How many inch/hg does your laminating pump pull. It seams like I remember them only going to 25" which would not boil water at room temperature. I started with a medical vacuum that only got 25" and it was not working so I got the HVAC pump and that made all the difference. Better boating through STEM. science and engineering rocks.

[@livingforsail]

@@haydenwatson7987 That pump only pulls 24-25 "hg. It is great for the vacuum bagging but won't pull a full vacuum as you mentioned. I actually have a rotary vane pump that could get to 30" and that's what I'd use for the rig that you recommended. These pumps apparently don't like to spend a lot of time at lower pressures so I save this one for HVAC work. I appreciate the ideas to use it for this application. Thanks!!

[@haydenwatson7987]

@@livingforsail My experience is that they handle long runtime without problems. I ran my cheap Harbor Freight pump for 8-10 hours for probably 40 plus days over the course of the summer and it still pulls 30". What they do not like is moving air. If you have leaks, the air that is coming through the system will damage them but as long as you are airtight, and it drops to 30" it runs great. You can hear the pump struggling if there is a leak, but it just purrs once the vacuum drops down to 30". My deck had a pretty good seal, but it was not perfect. When I turned the pump off, the vacuum would drop off from 30 to 25" in about a minute and then take about 30 minutes to drop to 0". I think much of this was the water turning to vapor until the vacuum dropped. In the sealed chamber I described, you should be able to seal it perfectly with a HVAC ball valve. That way, you could run it for a few minutes and then turn it off for several hours. Then every time you walk by, flip it on until it drops back to 30" and shut the valve and let the chamber do the work.

[@livingforsail]

@@haydenwatson7987That's a good idea to run a valve and power intermittently as long as the seal holds well. Cheers. Yeah, not liking to move air is what I meant about not being suited to lower pressure work because the usual way to do that is to introduce a controlled leak at the pressure regulator. Maybe there is a better system that I'm not aware of but that's the main reason why I use the diaphragm pump for the lamination work.

[@douglasbakker9064]

Thanks for sharing

[@livingforsail]

Thanks for watching 🙏🙌

[@sodoffxx]

Great editing and information. Thank You!

[@livingforsail]

Thank you! 🙏 🙌👍

[@4englishlies875]

As far as the aluminum pipe, I have used a spray gun and spray from both ends. Now granted this was for bigger models that I have built but I would think the process is the same. It may seem kinda of strange but sometimes you have to think outside the box.

[@livingforsail]

Thanks for the tip! 🙏🙌👍

[@stevenschapera2888]

Don’t think only of the chain coming IN to the locker - also remember about the chain being able to get OUT quickly! I’d leave it in the centre.

[@livingforsail]

Yeah, it might be extra effort and downside risk for only incremental gains… we will see. 👍👍

[@Macvombat]

Thrift stores around where I live occasionally has old teak furniture for sale. It's high quality wood and most of the time far cheaper than buying the wood from the lumberyard. Reusing it can be a bit more work though depending on the furniture. I bought a ~80$ solid oak table with a ~7-8cm top. practically free wood at that point.

[@livingforsail]

That’s a great idea that I hadn’t considered. Thanks! 🙏

[@nickshipman620]

Hi John I was always obsessed with wiping everything with acetone like you , and even did what did in a previous video and ripped up some wet epoxy work because I forgot the pre wipe with acetone, I’ve since been doing some reading watching some west system videos on KZbin and west systems themselves actually recommend NOT to do the final wipe with acetone , they say wipe BEFORE you sand , then sand and dust it down or vacuum, this apparently is the best surface to apply epoxy to , from what I’ve been reading they say you can re spread contaminants over the freshly sanded area , also I’ve read on some forums that wiping it down with acetone can actually melt the nice sharp edges of scratch’s you have just put into the fiberglass so you don’t end up with as much mechanical grip when come to laminate, this is on a microscopic level, but I can see the point 🤔and one other point I’ve read ,some people say that when you wipe the area over any dust on the surface turns into a slurry and gets deposited to the bottom of the scratches and this also can affect the bond , I can see why all three of these could have some truth to them , but this from What I’ve read just related to epoxy , the only exception to this is bonding oily woods like teak as you already know , I’ve now switched my approach and I’m skipping the final wipe down ,

[@livingforsail]

Thanks for this! Some very good points to think about. I can appreciate that a good clean to START with and then Sanding with new and clean disks is probably just about as good as you can get. I will definitely consider that as I move on. Thanks for sharing that! 🙌👍

[@markbuskens6070]

@@livingforsail I agree about fresh sandpaper is the best,because any solvent can just clean some areas and contaminate others.After reading all the comments I will never post anything negative or unkind to you.Thats a Huge project,I have 2 big sailboats and both are taking way too long.😉

[@livingforsail]

@@markbuskens6070 Thank you sir! I would say that most of the feedback that I get (99%) is positive. You can't make everyone happy!!

[@kenolena9933]

Hawse pipe should stay centered. Less chance of piling up on one side, the pile tipping over and locking the leading edge

[@haydenwatson7987]

What I saw in his design is that the end of the pipe is centered but it takes a bit of a circular route to get there. that should not cause a stacking problem.

[@livingforsail]

Yeah, that was the idea. I still am wondering how it would all fair if I had to let the whole thing out. It might load the pipe rather funny… straight is probably better but we will see.

[@livingforsail]

Thanks for the suggestion. Whatever I land on, the goal is to have the chain coming down in the centerline even if it wanders around to get there. Cheers! 👍🙌

[@haydenwatson7987]

@@livingforsail It might be a fun video experiment to test a free fall test. You could do it right there in the boat shed. plenty of drop to the ground to get the chain running. personally, I would not really want to see a free running chain with no added clutch to slow it down whether it be strait or curved. My mind runs to a few of the KZbin videos I have seen of out-of-control chain on big ships. 😱 It is possible that the bit of curve would actually work better and act as a bit of passive brake to limit the max speed.

[@livingforsail]

@@haydenwatson7987 Yeah, it would be an interesting test. I imagine that it would slow it down somewhat...

[@mattpedersen1312]

I'm a bit late to the party but you might look at Black Locust as a teak substitute. It has better mechanical properties and supposedly the only more rot resistant North American hardwood is granite.

[@livingforsail]

Thanks for the tip. I’ll look into that. 🙏👍

[@choimdachoim9491]

You're changing the definition of "Camera Obscura"...

[@livingforsail]

🙌

[@Psychobilly]

Yippie 🎉 watching now!

[@livingforsail]

Awesome! I’m loving that enthusiasm!!! 🙏🙌🙌🙌

[@spencemallder7358]

The thing about anchor chains is that they will jam up on you when you absolutely 100% don't want them to. I would keep the hawse pipe as straight and simple as you can.

[@livingforsail]

Yeah… that’s been my experience although this is my first time with a pipe to a far away anchor chain locker… I guess whatever I do, I’ll make sure I can opt for a “straight” option if I try to push it too far… Thanks! 🙏

[@bsg2580]

@@livingforsailalso one bend means that the chain touches the inside of that 45 degree fitting once when in tension. 2 fittings means it will touch 2 times which is double the force on that pipe. Put a rope through the pipe and pull it and you will see how much more force/torsion will be put on that pipe. I would pass on that and also suggest you heat the lower end of that pipe with a heat gun and form a flared end to stop the chain from wearing into the sharp edge of the end of the pipe. Easy job and kinda fun if you havent don’t it. For that matter you may be able to heat form a 45 in a new pipe and eliminate the glued fittings. New to the channel- keep it coming!

[@livingforsail]

@@bsg2580 Welcome to the channel! I appreciate what you're saying and I've thought about it too. I'm also considering that if I ever need to run the whole thing overboard in an unfortunate event that the whole thing pulled tight with just the rope running through the pipe will put tremendous load on the pipe. so it would be best to have a straight run from the anchor point on the bulkhead to the hole in the deck...

[@bsg2580]

@@livingforsail I have a CE degree and about 22 separate boats (that have all been projects!) under my belt so I appreciate your engineers approach to things. Give the heat gun a try its pretty cool what you can do with PVC pipe when its soft like pipe insulation

[@livingforsail]

@@bsg2580 Thanks Will do! 22 boats... That's Awesome!

[@jon65160]

I have heard of people buying teak garden furniture in order to buy teak, surprisingly it can be cheaper that way.

[@livingforsail]

Haha. That’s hilarious. 😂 I actually have an old outdoor chair that I saved with that in mind but I’d need to laminate a bunch together… 👍

[@danknox9986]

I think you turned a two day job into a two week job. But you seem to enjoy doing that. Good luck.

[@livingforsail]

You seem fun 👍

[@SLBoats-h8z]

Love the detail and precision approach! In thinking about a few of my own projects, I wonder if fabricating DIY fiberglass board in place of the Coosa is at all cost effective. It’s a lot of extra steps and time (that makes Coosa the better choice, no doubt). Laying and pressing 1/4 - 1/2 inch of fiberglass and resin has its own drawbacks…but could it be relatively cost effective with a good system set in place. Thoughts? Thank you for outstanding content!

[@livingforsail]

Check out Matt over at the Duracell project. He lays up sheets of PVC foam with 1708 skins on each side in a vacuum bag on a flat table to build his own panels and then cuts them up as needed. That’s probably the best way to go. Good luck and thanks for watching! 🙏👍🙌

[@SLBoats-h8z]

@@livingforsail I’ll check them out! Thank you!!

[@livingforsail]

@@SLBoats-h8z It's a cool project. Enjoy!

[@tobyduncan6150]

Ideally, you don’t want the pipe at all. The best solution is to have the chain drop straight from the windlass into the chain locker well. Windlasses have a minimum free fall height requirement. Installing a pipe negates 100% of that requirement. My current boat a similar set up. Because of the lack of required free fall, the chain would skip on the gypsy. The previous owner made a stainless guide that you step on to hold the chain into the gypsy. Super sketchy in my opinion and it still skipped. I solved the issue by relocating the windlass aft so it dropped the chain directly into the correct location and it had the minimum free fall. I threw away the stainless guide. Hasn’t skipped once.

[@livingforsail]

In a perfect world maybe so. This pipe was previously used and worked well. You don’t negate the forces from “free fall” if the pipe is slippery and there is free fall on the downhill side. The weight of the chain still pulls through the pipe and prevents skipping at the gypsy. 👍 I have the opportunity to mount the windlass further aft the get a better route into the locker and may do that but some compromise here is necessary.

[@tobyduncan6150]

If it wasn’t a problem before then you have way more important projects to over-engineer! I’m a firm believer that if it’s worth doing, it’s worth over doing. Haha. I was also under the impression that you’ve never sailed this boat and therefore never anchored with it. Not sure why I thought that.

[@livingforsail]

@@tobyduncan6150 I like to say... "There has to be a harder way?!" ;)

[@tomm1968]

I would opt for a Type III hard coat anodizing. I believe that is probably the toughest, most corrosion resistant anodizing you're going to find.

[@livingforsail]

Thanks for the tip! 🙏🙌👍

[@tomm1968]

​​@@livingforsailI suspect anodizing would also make a good base for painting as an additional corrosion barrier as well.

[@jd739]

I think the biggest problem with your chain locker is that it doesn’t have a hatch to the deck. Going through all this trouble, I would recommend access from the top rather than inside the boat. If you really want to go around the world, you will need a lot of chain. And chain has a tendency of piling up and jamming the windlass. When you have access from the deck, it’s easy to push the pile down with the boat hook while you’re pulling in the chain. Otherwise, you will have to have an extra person doing that from the inside. I have that problem on my Hylas and wish there would be access from the deck. It would also give you the chance to have a waterproof bulkhead.

[@livingforsail]

I appreciate your point. The system didn’t seem to have any appreciable issues swallowing 250’ of chain in the original configuration so I think it will be ok and possibly just need an occasional adjustment. That is my hope… Interesting video here about measuring chain pile up performance. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aGLOiJmZa72Fadksi=XYyZ1r62Tgy_FFAL 🙌👍

[@jd739]

@@livingforsail interesting video. But he is not coming up with a solution. Even with the expensive ss chain you would have to go down to the locker while retrieving more than 140'. If you have strong wind or current on a lee shore, that can be a tricky situation if you are alone or with just one other person (who is on the helm). It is an issue on my boat for sure and I'm looking for ways to solve this problem. I've been anchoring on boats with top access and it is easy to push the pile down with a boat hook while you operating the winch.

[@livingforsail]

@@jd739 My anchor locker is at least twice as deep as the one in that video. The current chain is 200 or 250' of 3/8" G4 (I'll need to double check) and I had room for more with the original setup.

[@bentolufsen2774]

Fill the aluminum tube with expanding foam

[@livingforsail]

Interesting idea! 💡 AND it will then be a FLOATING beam! 🙌👍

[@jcfgh]

With regard to the aluminium. We now use powder coated aluminium window frames in England. Can you cut the beam to size and then get it powder coated before installation?

[@livingforsail]

That’s an idea. I have done that in the past. The tricky part might be getting the inside clean and etched but maybe I could do that with a chem dip… 🤔 I actually have a small powder coat setup here at the shop.

[@robertgold2643]

😎

[@livingforsail]

🙏

[@stevenschapera2888]

Make a 2”x2” beam up from laminated marine ply and seal with epoxy.

[@livingforsail]

Yeah, that’s a good idea. Thanks 🙏

[@666kty3]

I guess hindsight would tell you to have started with a more solid boat, but somehow I know you would have torn it down to the bones anyway. I am often jealous of people who dont think and just "do". They enjoy themselves until something falls apart or breaks, while we will never leave things alone, because we can do better.

[@livingforsail]

Haha! I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here! In a few ways! 👍👍👍😂

[@robertscholz4486]

In looking at the visual representation of the fore-peak that you did, I had a thought ... your visual representation of the chain pipe indicated that you would try to make a more complex bend on the pipe to offset the location for better access to the sail locker area. As you have already redone and sealed the deck above the chain locker, why does the chain pipe need to be centered at all? You have to make a new hole in the deck, so why not offset the hole slightly to one side or the other and keep a straighter run on the chain pipe to ensure good flow through the pipe of the chain? I would think that you could even make the hole so that the pipe could remain hidden behind the bulkhead to the right or left side of the opening. If the chain is going to be pulled down the chain pipe by its own weight, then a simple fairlead (2 eye bolts for example) to guide the chain from the rear of the windlass to the chain pipe would allow full and unobstructed access to the sail locker.

[@livingforsail]

I do have some flexibility on where to re-mount the windlass but I do want the chain to come in as “fair” as possible. The existing pipe was working pretty well. The fall height inside the locker seems to be enough to pull the chain down through the pipe. I think it could handle a slightly more complicated run… 👍

[@robertscholz4486]

@@livingforsail I'm sure that it could handle the more complicated run, i was just making the suggestion because it would completely free up the entrance to the sail locker -- you could have a straight run down with a bend under the shelf to get the chain centered in the chain locker -- just a thought to maximize access since the windlass wiring and motor will be in the sail locker. Laying upside down wrapped around a chain pipe to work on the windlass can be a bummer!!!

[@livingforsail]

@@robertscholz4486 I appreciate the input! Thank you!!

[@markbuskens6070]

How many episodes will this take you think ??

[@livingforsail]

Very hard to guess… it’s a big project so I think we will be here for a while…

[@stephenrice4208]

Why don’t or didn’t you bring the chain tube down from the deck and below deck angle the tube toward the bow and then down and below the chain locker deck put in a sweep that sends the chain back aft in the chain locker. That way the chain tube is well out of the way toward the bow in the mostly unusable part of the compartment and frees up more of the usable part of the compartment above the chain locker?

[@livingforsail]

Yes, I have considered this. It is a balance between usable space below, and anchor performance. The cleanest interior space will also likely result in the worst performance from the anchor chain and vice versa. If I keep everything forward until the level of the platform and then try to pipe the outlet to the back (the ideal place for the chain pile to form) I will loose a lot of height and therefore capacity…

[@joeldelamirande5792]

You can get teak in boat scrap yard

[@livingforsail]

Yeah. That’s a great idea. There’s one not too far that, strangely, I’ve not yet visited… thanks. 🙏 👍

[@joeldelamirande5792]

@@livingforsail if you see a C&c 40 in the there I need a bow casting

[@livingforsail]

@@joeldelamirande5792 Give these guys a call. If they have your boat in the yard I will gladly try to help get this going your way. [phone]

[@joeldelamirande5792]

@@livingforsail will do

[@planet4allofus]

You can coat the aluminium with alodine.

[@livingforsail]

I’ll look into that. Thanks!🙏