USS Excelsior’s Transwarp Drive Explained - Did Trek Writers Confuse and Mislead Fans?

[@resurrectedstarships]

Support the channel at patreon.com/resurrected - also apparently I am dead wrong at 5:20 - Scott's guide to Enterprise is a guid to the original not that A - wild!

[@defies4626]

You're not entirely wrong, as the last section did cover the -A and the changes between her and the original (including the new drive, the new baby LCARS, and the other minor modifications)

[@calanon534]

"Fore" not "For" in "Fore and Aft." 0:55 - The heck are you on? Look at the real designs put out for the movies and show. There's a pair of torpedo launchers back there, that's not a nacelle.

[@luminaire4946]

The enterprise jumping to warp 9 in the enterprise incident is easily explained. in season 2 the enterprise got an upgrade by the kelvins in the episode by any other name. they could reach a cruising speed of warp 11. Its likely that they kept those enhancements and while maybe the couldn't fully utilize them or maintain them without the kelvins it's possible they learned enough to increase their own warp speed limits. this might have been incorporated into the refit model once the tech had been reverse engineered.

[@resurrectedstarships]

OH BTW someone needs to go touch some grass - spammed disrespectful comments will be deleted - I've corrected myself - go vent your bad day somewhere else.

[@luminaire4946]

Also interestingly if you read Scott’s guide they touch on TWD. The ships are not technically any faster. They are just traveling through interspace like they did in the tholian web.

[@MrArgus11111]

Excelsior was referred to in some technical manual type books, at the time, as a "Star Dreadnaught". I miss that. She really does look like a tough battleship to me.

[@sw-gs]

Bigger, Tougher, Faster

[@barrybend7189]

Dreadnought was simply just a better battleship. So both fit.

[@martinjrgensen8234]

There is a piece of lore in the Star Trek ttrpg book, where a Romulan remarks on the Excelsior, and the gist of it is “daaamn that is huuuge we are fucked”. It really was a monstrosity powerful ship class

[@logicplague]

@@barrybend7189 Yeah and no, the Dreadnought was all big-guns, vs previous battleships having guns that varied in caliber. It was also quite fast relative to other ships of the time, it basically rendered every other class obsolete. Drachinifel has a video on it, but afterwards all battleships basically followed the Dreadnought's philosophy and design.

[@canisblack]

Even more so with the Enterprise B/Dominion War refit.

[@mb2000]

I always assumed that Excelsior’s transwarp just became the standard warp by the 24th century, hence the alteration to the warp scale in TNG and it was still called warp for ease/tradition. As for Borg/Voth/Warp 10 transwarp… maybe that’s just a term used for a different warp mechanism to differentiate it from what Starfleet calls warp. Or some quantum got into the universal translator or something.

[@lynngreen7978]

The flaw with that is the aliens who didn't invent Transwarp.

[@k1productions87]

@@lynngreen7978 They simply didn't call it that. The TRUE fault is Voyager constantly changing the definitions of things out of sheer laziness.

[@casbot71]

The Kelvin universe could even fit in with that, with the Vengeance having this version of Transwarp because Khan invented it _several decades earlier_ than in the Prime Timeline. The Dreadnought class could move a lot faster at warp and could fire at the Enterprise while in warp, which seems similar to what Excelsior was expected to do - if it hadn't been sabotaged.

[@k1productions87]

@@casbot71 This is one reason why I say Into Darkness bears closer similarity to Search for Spock than Wrath of Khan, lol.

[@Zeithri]

@@casbot71 There's a wonderful What if-video that has that very scene play out with Connie-Refit and Excelsior. That being said ,the KT ships most likely already possess transwarp drive due to their sheer size and speed.

[@HeimburgerMusic]

As a young trekkie in the 80s with no ability to look up info on the internet, my head-canon theory was that "transwarp" meant that it could more or less immediately reach a target warp factor. The original Enterprise is always shown accelerating through warp factors with Sulu calling out each number as they reach it. On the Enterprise D, the captain orders a specific warp factor, says engage, and they go. No one was ever calling out warp numbers unless they were running some kind of special experiment. So I always thought that the Excelsior was probably the first ship that could do what the Enterprise D was doing. If the captain calls out warp 5, the ship just goes straight to warp 5. I think the shows ended up using "transwarp" for too many different things to really say what it "really" means. But I still prefer the explanation I came up with as an 8-year-old.

[@HuntingTarg]

'Still a better Transwarp theory than Voyager's.' 😅

[@motorhead281]

That makes alot of sense! Could also explain why Excelsiors 1st officer says to the captain "all speeds available through transwarp, captain." when they chase the Enterprise out of spacedock.

[@HeimburgerMusic]

@@motorhead281 yeah, that’s what I thought.

[@stonent]

@@motorhead281 That makes sense with the tries to get out of here using warp, they will be in for a surprise (or however it was phrased). Just like a naval ship if you set the throttle to flank, it may take several minutes to get to that speed. The trans warp idea implies like 2 cars with a top speed of 100. Except one has a 4 cylinder and one has a V8. So both ships maybe had a top speed of Warp 9, but the excelsior would be waiting at the finish line while the enterprise was still accelerating.

[@chrisbeckett9748]

This is now part of my canon. I don't even mind that the term changed over time. It's a bit like the term "high speed internet".

[@Tezunegari]

4:35 Fastest SAFE cruising speed is not the same as FULL COMBAT SPEED. The Enterprise reaching Warp 9 is not necessarily a writing mistake but simply the ship going as fast as possible with a maintenance cycle required afterward. TNG scale: 3.33... = 10/3 My headcanon for Threshold is that Paris/Janeway turned into newts... because they were in all points in space at the same time and got contaminated by ALL of life, essentially turning them into a sort of proto-Progenitors (TNG The Chase, DSC S5)

[@mrsamaritan6881]

This

[@Furzkampfbomber]

That is quite a good explanation. You've actually managed to make this episode look less silly at least for me. So far, this was one of the view Voyager episodes I really did not like, because I thought this newt transformation (also a new english word this german just learned) was really, really stupid. With your explanation, which is actually quite cool, this now makes sense to me, so thanks!

[@keirfarnum6811]

What was most egregious about that episode wasn’t that they were turned into giant salamanders; it was that they were so easily turned back into human.

[@MegaZeta]

Neither of those concepts really exist in Star Trek as a TV drama beyond contradictory episode-to-episode conveniences, much less concepts as defined/distinct from each other. And that's wise, as those specifics aren't important to the goals of the shows and movies. It's not tremendously important at what speed combat can occur, as almost nothing about space combat in Star Trek is realistic, with the ships engaging as combo battleships/fighter jets at extremely close range.

[@rbleisem]

As for VOY it's warp 10 episode, I consider it a security training holo-program. One that failed, because it's weirdness factor, was just too weird, even for Starfleet. Makes me wonder if the date was april 1st, you know, in the show, because that looks like a massive prank (by Tom Paris). So no, I consider that episode to not actually exist or the Voyager actually being a Nebula Engineering's hull (same general size) and the Voyager we all know & love, is actually the Doctor (EMH) his holo-roman. The other option, is Q messing with them, for some reason, since warp 13 is possible, as proven by the Ent-D Dreadnought in "ALL Good Things". The TNG warp scale can actually be drawn to warp 15, which would then be infinite speed, you have to increase the power, per curve, massively. Warp 10 should thus not have had that effect, at all, meaning, something else is going on. So, can somebody do the Voy intro with a Nebula Engineering's hull, that has four Sovereign nacells in a two per pylon in a back to back, engine pod configuration and a layer of ablative panels to bring the hull look up to VOY & DS9 hull look standaards of the modern starfleet starships? I always hate the; "not yet installed" or "loaded on board" crap, they could have made it, on the saucer, back at DS9, with 3/4th of the crew. And it would also explain the roomier engineering's deck, by supporting TWO warpcores, but losing one in the opening episodes, thus reducing her max speed & power, in terms of stamina. Hostiles forcing them to go for defense, instead of speed. Then they could have had a Voyager Nebula Dreadnought, with saucer (recovered from the Borg, thus solving where Geordi Laforge his mom ended up) and the Endgame upgrades, as well, get home, in a ultimate form. Also less drama for the first few years in the Delta Quadrant, by hunting down that TNG wormhole to the Delta Quadrant, thus lots of diverting from the straight course. Same with Yesterday's Enterprise, the Ent-D should have gone from a Galaxy, to a Nebula. That way they really could have shown the differences in the timeline.

[@tommytwotacos8106]

Many many years ago, I had the pleasure of attending a Trek convention that featured a Q&A with Mr. John Eaves himself. I can't the exact wording, but at one point somebody asked him about his process when creating the first conceptual sketches and study model of the Excelsior that would go on to be used by ILM when they created the filming model for Star Trek III. Remember that Eaves was doing this in the early 80's, and he was trying to find and incorporate design elements that really felt like what the future might look like. As a designer, he'd noticed the influx of high quality new electronic devices from Japan and how they differed from the American designs in a myriad of ways, both great and small. So, he decided to try and see what the Enterprise might've looked like if it had been built by the Japanese, and he tried applying different aesthetics as well as picturing how the application of their different approach to the philosophy of design might show up visually in the finished product. When he was done trying a variety of ideas across a several iterations, eventually what resulted from that process was the basic design of the Excelsior we ended up getting.

[@EVAUnit4A]

Uhh... the _Excelsior_ was designed-and-built by Nilo Rodis and Bill George.

[@tommytwotacos8106]

@@EVAUnit4A i deleted my original reply because after i reread it, I realized I sounded like an absolute dick. Yes, the ILM guys designed and built the model for the film. Eaves and Okuda did modifications and additions, as well as other work in tech manuals. But the original conceptualization was done by Eaves, at least as best as 13 year old me at the convention listening to him tell the story understood it. He made a study model, sketches, and some notes that went to ILM.

[@tommytwotacos8106]

@@EVAUnit4A i also want to apologize for the tone of my original reply. I pressed post and looked at the Asuka doll on top of my monitor and I could in her eyes it was like she was judging for being such a prick. You and I are old school mecha dudes. You're an Evangelion-friend and I'm a Patlabor-friend. If there's anyone to whom I should show some respect and be as courteous towards as possible, it's a man like you with whom I share TWO of my most favorite fandoms on Earth: Mecha and Trek.

[@EVAUnit4A]

@@tommytwotacos8106 🖖

[@EVAUnit4A]

@@tommytwotacos8106 Ah-ha-! I found the source of the disconnect. So, we're both right on this one. forgottentrek.com/feature-films/designing-the-excelsior/ So, John Eaves was indeed involved in working on the _Exclesior. However,_ it was in specific regards to the modifications for the _Enterprise-B_ for _Star Trek Generations, but not_ the original creation of the _Excelsior_ for _ST III._ This does fit with the fact he rose to prominence during the Berman Era, so it would make sense that he'd have a hand in TNG-era content _like_ the modification to the _Enterprise-B._ Then this would set him up nicely to outright create the _Enterprise-E_ for _Star Trek First Contact._

[@nobodyatall1886]

Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise has an appendix about the Enterprise-A, but other than the appendix, the book is about the Constitution-class refit that we see on screen in the first three Star Trek movies. This is clearly and painstakingly explained on the first few pages of the book.

[@95DarkFire]

0:44 Which is funny because Sulu would later be the Captain of Excelsior.

[@TheRealOtakuJoe]

What's interesting is that in restored audio of a cut scene in TWOK, Admiral Kirk mentions Sulu's upcoming promotion to Captain of the USS Excelsior. Which makes the line of "glad to have him at the helm for 3 weeks" make a bit more sense. Though I'm at a loss of why Starfleet felt Sulu, who hadn't been a first officer, was deserving of a command. But I may have answered my own question, when you have the great Admiral Kirk's recommendation.

[@michaelkemmet834]

​@@TheRealOtakuJoe The novelization of TWOK makes it more clear that the reassembly of the command crew(minus Chekov) was something of a birthday present to Kirk. I don't think it was said flat out(and it's been maybe two decades since I last read it), but there was a strong implication that Sulu had been somewhere else for awhile. Probably as the first officer of a different starship after Enterprise became a training ship attached to Starfleet Academy. Even if that didn't happen, Sulu almost certainly would have been Spock's first officer after he took command of Enterprise after Kirk's return to Starfleet Command. And the novelization of ST:3 includes a scene with Fleet Admiral Morrow telling Sulu his promotion was on hold and command of Excelsior was being given to Styles because of Sulu's connection to the Genesis Incident.

[@j.rileyindependentproductions]

@@TheRealOtakuJoe Technically, considering Picard specifically references in BoBW that he recruited a "young Lt." to be his first officer, and it is implied that Riker was not the first officer of the ship he was previously assigned to (so, maybe the third officer?)... Yet he turned down his own command to become the Enterprise's first officer. This would suggest that one technically does not need to have been a first officer to be promoted to Captain.

[@Tuning3434]

@@j.rileyindependentproductions There is a difference between actual military rank and function (especially when you start comparing NCO's with CO's duties, responsibilities and abilities). The first officer / XO is a function, not a rank. For instance in USN (although most navies) the commanding officier of an attack submarine is usually an Commander, and his XO a Lieutenant. When you attain the rank Captain, you usually function as the Commodore for a squadron of attack submarines. In the TMP era, many of the senior staff appear to have been promoted to ranks considerably above their functions: Sulu, Uhura both where serving as Lt. Commanders, Chekov as Lt, Scotty as Commander. During the events of ST2, Sulu, Uhura and Chekov have been promoted to the rank of Commander, Scotty was promoted Captain during ST3 and basically ran the Excelsior warp engine project, which while stationed ON the Excelsior, was essentially a fleet wide technology program. Ranks is as much as a seniority level as a skill level. During the events of ST6, the Enterprise had 3 captains on board: Scotty, Spock and Kirk, which really says more about the special status the Enterprise achieved that such a senior staff was allowed to run it.

[@jeffgaboury3157]

The Excelsior is a beaut for sure! Interesting video, but a few points. 1. Mr. Scott's Guide is not about the A, but the refit Enterprise. We see some shots of the A's bridge at the end of the book. 2. The "Warp 10 cruising speed and Warp 12 Emergency Speed" for the Enterprise is referred to, long before the Guide comes out. Specifically, it's on the beautiful cutaway poster of the Enterprise made for TMP, in 1979. 3. Although the original "Warp Factor Cubed" formula was never formally covered in an episode of TOS, it did appear in print during the shows run. Stephen Whitfield's "The Making of Star Trek" was published in 1968, between the second and third seasons of the show. It includes excerpts from the "Star Trek Bible", which was a a writers guide for the shows directors and writers and it includes lots of technical information on the TOS ship and its capabilities. It is a "must have" book (in my opinion) for Star Trek fans! I love your renders of the Excelsior. Keep up the great work!

[@autophreaktrishield]

N c c 1 7 0 1, no bloody a, b, c d

[@markplott4820]

ST V- updated Scots guide tells story of TW Excelsior & Ti-Ho (Transwarp Connie).

[@AndyG73]

Don't forget the use of 'Warp 13' by both the upgraded Enterprise-D and Pasteur in the TNG finale, "All Good Things". Maybe that extra nacelle really did the trick! :-)

[@kevin9218]

Not to mention the fact that, if you follow the old light speed cubed progression of the supposed original warp factor chart, there's no way the enterprise could have reached the outer edge of the galaxy in "where no man has gone before" nor could it have reached the center of the galaxy in Star Trek V by going less than warp 10. But then again, if they could go fast enough to reach those destinations over the course of a single episode or movie, the bajoran wormhole would be useless and why the heck is Voyager taking 70+ years to get back to earth? I find it best to just ignore the definitions of warp factors, the writers certainly did.

[@markplott4820]

3 nacelles dont work. only PAIRS . except in "single" Nacelle w/ Double pair of Warp Coils .

[@jetnova16]

The TNG Warp scale is a different modified scale of the TOS scale, the higher warp scales in TOS are in fact the highest in the TNG modified scale. That same scale was modified again in the future changing the scale to have Warp 13 in “All Good Things”. Dialogue has stated this major fact.

[@meiketorkelson4437]

How did they manage this without evolving into amphibians? 😂

[@jetnova16]

@@meiketorkelson4437 that’s because Warp 10 in TOS is far slower than the TNG warp speed equivalent to Warp 10! That’s about Warp 6-7 in the TNG Warp Scale thus not the same! Warp 13 in “All Good Things” is TNG’s Warp 9.99999999999 if it kept having more repeating 9s. This has all been explained in actual Established Star Trek Canon!

[@Ender7j]

From what I read decades ago, the Transwarp Drive employed by the Excelsior was pioneered by Shuvijinalis, a Vulcan outfit that sought to tie multiple warp drives together in each nacelle thereby enhancing the warp bubble effect and enabling faster travel. One of the limiting factors at the time was the computer power required by the ship to coordinate the warp nacelles and the power supply of the ship to achieve it.

[@little-wytch]

I don't remember where I got this idea, but it was my understanding that in the Excelsior days, they were using the term transwarp simply to describe that it could jump right to higher speeds rather than gradually increment speed as often and that the tech change over was like changing out Carbs for Fuel Injectors was for cars. That might not be the best analogy, but that's how I have always understood it.

[@MichaelEllisYT]

There have been three man varieties of warp drive. The Phoenix started with "Space Warp". Then by the time of the original enterprise in the Cage they used "Time Warp". This later became refered to just as warp drive. The Excelsior had "Trans Warp". By the time of TNG it was just called warp drive. My theory is that the Excelsiors Transwarp was when they started using subspace for travel rather than just communications.

[@SpiritOfBagheera]

“Mr. Scott’s Guide to the Enterprise” covers TMP through STIII. There are only a few pages at the back of the book that preview some bridge console layouts from STIV.

[@markplott4820]

ST-V addendum adds backstory on Transwarp Development project.

[@Jeremy-83]

The original concept behind the Excelsior's transwarp drive was the idea of projecting a warpfield far ahead of the ship and could be projected in a different way as to intersect with other vessels the Excelsior was trying to outrun. By intersection of the two fields it wouldn't matter how fast the other ship could go, the Excelsior would always be faster and could intercept. There were side affects to using this drive i.e. relativity issues and thus the drive was deemed a failure and the warp drive thresholds were just recalculated. This concept was used in the newer star trek 2 when sulu says "I'm getting a reading I don't understand." It was the Vengeance using the transwarp concept and intercepting and crossing into the Enterprise's warp field.

[@anaconda470]

My thoughts about ST3 trans-warp. When the Enterprise goes to warp, Sulu reads velocities: warp 1, warp 2, warp 3... Up to desired speed. The Excelsior officer says: all speeds available through trans-warp drive. In my opinion it's simple. The old warp drive has to accelerate to higher speeds while trans-warp can jump into a higher velocity directly.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

In TOS the Enterprise went Warp 9 in more than just the episode with the Romulans ("The Enterprise Incident") she also did it in the episode where she pushed the asteroid out of the way ("The Paradise Syndrome"). The time the ship went Warp 14 ("That Which Survives") and Warp 10 ("Let That be Your Battlefield") the ship was being controlled by a third party but no modifications had been made to the engines. Those old connies could certainly handle a lot!!!

[@BoopSnoot]

Transwarp is just regular warp drive that is confused about its gender. Unlike most ships that are referred to as "she/her", transwarp Excelsior was a "they/them".

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

@@BoopSnoot Not what transgender means (no-one is "confused") and your statement doesn't even make sense within the context of starships - the warp drive is not the vessel!

[@rbleisem]

TNG "All Good Things" Ent-D Dreadnought, warp 13.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

@@rbleisem Good point! Although I wonder if that's just a bit of in-universe shorthand because everyone in that timeline just got fed up of saying "Warp 9.9997356" all the time 😁😉

[@markplott4820]

this was OLD warp scale.

[@Justice107]

The Lore Reloaded channel first brought this to my attention, the TOS Enterprise's engines are capable of time warp if the fuel intake was changed up a bit. Kirk did this at least once. I'm sure Starfleet was terrified by the idea that their current ship engine designs could do that and rushed a bunch of refits and fancy new engine labels to move the fleet away from a dangerous time travel design. I also am under the impression that with the peace treaty with the Kilngons, a clause was made to disarm which means retiring their battle fleets, meaning connies and the D-7s were standing down from service. Which was a pointless gesture since both factions had the Excelsior class and Katinga coming online. To me, all the new fancy tech names could have just been PR catch-phrases to awe the public and foes alike.

[@hanelyp1]

The light speed breakaway factor, engaging warp drive while deep in a star's gravity well, was discovered by accident. The fuel mix had to be recalculated for a cold start of the warp engines to escape falling into a black star. The same time travel method was used again in a TOS episode, and using a Klingon ship during ST4. In all cases Spock's superior mathematics skill was involved in required calculations.

[@willipic]

If you go by what Mr. Scott's guide to the Enterprise says, Transwarp came from when the original Enterprise was in Tholian space and went into Interphase. They figured out they could use transporters and warp speed to create a rift to "parallel space" to go faster, thus the name Transwarp. The Excelsior was one ship that had it, and another called the Ti-Ho was the other that ended up being re-christened to Enterprise after the events in ST:IV. It's all laid out on page 112-113 of the book.

[@markplott4820]

YES, in FACT Transwarp was Discovered by MR. Spock and the Defiant "interphase" was also Discovered by Spock.

[@SiXiam]

@@markplott4820 Yes even if the Excelsior couldn't make the transwarp stable the concepts still could have made improvements to regular warp drives. Not to mention the Excelsior had warp nacelles much bigger and produced a lot more higher energy plasma to drive it. Same as the nacelles on the Enterprise D were massive by comparison.

[@kyrozudesoya1829]

In some of the older pen and paper RPG books, it's stated that there are two scales to warp speed: The old Cochrane scale, and the adjusted/new Cochrane scale. So the speeds that the TOS ships went to were an older scale which is why it goes to double digits, then with TNG they adjusted it so that it caps out at 9.999999 repeating. It implies that the Federation had taken the existing warp tech as far as it could go barring some breakthrough. So it's not a stretch to say that the transwarp used by the Excelsior became standard issue for newer ships or even refitted onto existing designs (Enterprise A) and when it became clear that they had taken the tech as far as they could they adjusted the warp speed scale to reflect that.

[@sakunysz]

I do believe that's the case, Excelsior's transwarp did work and just became the new warp, with a re-jiggered warp scale to avoid the silliness of warp 20, etc. Note that after ST IV, warp factor numbers are not mentioned ever again in the TOS films.

[@HuntingTarg]

I think that's because the TNG series was starting up on the new scale and the production staff did not want casual viewers to get confused.

[@hornet718]

So, my understanding of the USS Excelsior is this. First, Sulu liked the Excelsior because it was to be his ship. In Star Trek II, there is missing dialogue that after he returns from the training voyage of the Enterprise, he was to take command of the Great Experiment. But that is on the cutting room floor. In the novelization of ST3, Admiral Morrow temporarily relived Sulu of the command of Excelsior and gave it to Captain Styles. He assured him that once the shake down cruise was complete, Sulu was to take command. Sulu disagreed with Admiral Morrow saying that once Styles completes the shake down cruise, he is not going to give the Excelsior up. Second, in the history of the Transwarp Drive, it was to be like the transwarp conduits mentioned in TNG. After the Excelsior was towed back to Spacedock 1 and repaired, the Excelsior did attempt to perform the Transwarp maneuvers. It failed in that aspect but in all other aspects, the design was most superior vessel Starfleet had. Once it was retrofitted with the most advanced warp drive available, it was put into service and Sulu took command after years of not seeing him in the center seat. Another comment, the Guide to the Enterprise did cover NCC-1701 and NCC-1701-A. Enterprise A did have notable design improvements as it was a newer Constitution class vessel. I do agree that the writers were lazy in trying to explain what Transwarp was. I think that Star Trek was never meant to be taken seriously and so many plot holes are just riddled all through the original series. Here is one plot hole no one talks about, Saavik was pregnant with Spock's child! Remember the Pon Far, the mating ritual? Well, Spock mated with Saavik when his body was regenerated and he had no control over his impulses. She never could look him in the eye (basically, Saavik was like a daughter to Spock) and then she took leave. In ST4, when Saavik left, she stood next to Amanda. Why she do that? Because Amanda and Sarek would take care of Spock's mate and child. Also, a secret that the family would not want public. Perhaps in ST6, it was supposed to be Saavik and not Valeris that betrayed Starfleet. That would have been a more profound scene. Oh well, we will never get that story, as well as the Tomed Incident as well. We can only appreciate ST for its face value, not depth. Anyways, great video, thanks for posting.

[@abbeyhall4624]

I have to reckon that the Excelsior is basically a Dreadnaught-styled battleship with massive engines for getting places, like the pocket-battleships of WW2.

[@the7observer]

Sulu seems to be a more methodical cautious character (as seen as how he reacted to the kobayashi maru simulation, opting to not get into the neutral zone). So maybe what he liked about the excelsior was related to his personality

[@hqwefg]

iirc the Excelsior's transwarp drive was later mentioned to have never worked, according to an interview from around TNG it's mentioned that the Excelsiors were all refitted to remove the transwarp features and function only with normal warp, so its transwarp drive is similar to a prototype that didn't quite work.

[@terranempire2]

But how is never laid out. I suspect that it did go fast but the Excelsior space frame started to experience stress beyond tolerances. In STVI Sulu wants to get to Kitomer he is impatient and makes a comment “come on Come on” his helmsman responds. “Sir She’ll fly apart!” In threshold Voyager tries to rundown the shuttle Paris stole we hear the computer alerts about the ships structural integrity.

[@itsmezed]

@@terranempire2 "Fly her apart then!" 😁

[@HuntingTarg]

I recall that too; I also recall that the Excelsior was built as a one-on-a-kind experimental test bed, but proved so sound and reliable that it was made into its own production class after a few years of service. My own headcanon was that trying to operate the transwarp drive without the specialized components that Cpt. Scott removed (which apparently the engineering staff and the ship's computer didn't know were missing beforehand - what are all those diagnostic procedures FOR, anyway?) 'did something' to the Transwarp Drive that the ship's engineers and Starfleet never quite figured out. So while Cpt. Scott may have ruined a potential engineering breakthrough in FTL propulsion, his sacrificial loyalty helped save an officer who would prove instrumental in unravelling one of the biggest interstellar conspiracies of the millenium. "Everything rises and falls on Leadership." -John Maxwell

[@pauld6967]

@4:33 the key words are "safe" and "cruising." Maximum speed is always greater than cruising speed. So, going Warp 9 to escape the Romulans is not a mistake on the writer's part.

[@ChrisCooper312]

A concept which applies to real life ships too. They will have a cruising speed, which is the most efficient and that gives a good life for the engines (at least between major overhauls). They will then have a maximum speed, this will be faster but less efficient and put more wear on the engines. Commercial ships might use that to regain lost time (since time is money), military might use it in wartime situations where getting there fast is important. Military vessels in particular will also often have an emergency speed. This is the "giving you everything she's got" speed above the normal maximum where getting away from danger or completing the mission is more important than the risk of damage to the engines. Often that can only be sustained for a certain time. On gauges these speeds (or at least the engine RPMs needed to reach them) can be colour coded as green, yellow and red bands. Same as a car, green is efficient, yellow is fine but you're using more fuel, red line isn't instantly fatal but don't hold it for too long or go the too often unless you want to be picking up bits of the engine off the road.

[@VhenRaTheRaptor]

@@ChrisCooper312 You see that with the Defiant-class too iirc. They can go insanely fast with their overpowered engine... but it's too much engine for too little a ship and their safe cruising speed is actually fairly low for the era.

[@sabrewolf4129]

In the real world, the absolute max speed would be referred to as flank speed. The navy uses this. They have 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, Full and Flank. Flank speed can only be held for a few minutes before the engines burn out, which is why when the Enterprise went Warp 9, she only held it for a few minutes and burned out the nacelles. This holds true for TNG as well. The Enterprise-D had a Normal cruising speed of Warp 6 (until fuel exhaustion), a maximum cruise of Warp 9.2, a maximum top speed of Warp 9.6 for 12 hours, and then her flank speed risking burning the engine is 9.9 for 10 minutes.

[@pauldavis3113]

Actually in the original "Mister Scott's Guide to the Enterprise" printing in 1987 has both with the Enterprise and the Enterprise A starting in the Appendix starting on page 111. Some notes I enjoyed in the Acknowledgements is special references were provided by the FASA Corporation. Whaaaaaaaat!?! Also on page 14, maximum velocity is Warp 12. Additionally starting on page 112 is the introduction to the history of the USS Ti-Ho and the reference the Ti-Ho was NOT a Constitution refit. It was built new from the bottom up as an "Enterprise" class (see design proposal on page 20-21) AND having been equipped with Transwarp drive. It would make sense. especially in Star Trek V the warp engine core is the Next Generation's design. Unfortunately FASA lost it's licensing and therefore future credits.

[@DavidDouglas-q7v]

I think Nilo Rodis at ILM designed Excelsior, Grissom, and the Klingon Bird-Of-Prey. All three are beautiful, iconic designs... regardless of how easily on of them is destroyed... ;)

[@lynngreen7978]

I found that V^5 actually works to reflect certain known distances and travel times. TNG era eventually revised Warp Factor based on Relativity, with the decimal place moved one place to the right. Sulu was fascinated, because he was her captain. He'd only been aboard enterprise as a favor to Kirk.

[@singletona082]

I'm with scotty on being unimpressed, but first impressions count for a lot and between her captain's snotty attitude and the overal ungainly superstructure? I figured Sulu was mental for wanting that ship. But I will say Sulu himself filled out the chair quite nicely.

[@VegetaLF7]

I'm personally a fan of the idea the Great Experiment of the Excelsior's Transwarp Drive, while a failure, did lead to the upgraded TNG-era warp scale. I personally like the idea that it was the Enterprise-B that got to be the first ship with the TNG-era style engines while all the other ships in the fleet had the older one. This made the Enterprise-B the only ship around fast enough to get to the Nexus Ribbon for the rescue mission, rather than being the only ship around.

[@pauld6967]

I like your thinking. That does make it more plausible for why the Enterprise-B is the one that responds to the emergency.

[@rbleisem]

@@pauld6967 Indeed

[@rbleisem]

Seems logical

[@markplott4820]

hated Design of ENT - B , very poor Design , uninspired. the STOCK Excelsior class was Good Enough as Enterprise - B.

[@Rocketsong]

@@markplott4820 I rather like the larger impulse deck. The extensions on the lower engineering hull are *bleh*, but those were of course added so they could blow them up without damaging the model.

[@TheBigExclusive]

Saying stuff like "Warp 9.99976" gets old very fast. They should have changed the Warp scale to go beyond Warp 10.

[@Potrimpo]

Warp 13

[@GrantWaller.-hf6jn]

Or Space Balls ludicrous speed

[@s3p4kner]

They've gone to Plaid!

[@GrantWaller.-hf6jn]

We use 2 9s 3 9s 4 9s for purity of metals

[@GrantWaller.-hf6jn]

​@@s3p4knerthey over shot us by a week and half

[@yewtoob2007]

in TOS "The Changeling", NOMAD augments the Enterprise's warp capacity: ENGINEER: Warp 10, Mister Scott. SCOTT: Impossible. It can't go that fast. Now, is Scotty saying the ship can't go that fast because of a law of physics or because he knows the limits of the engines?

[@Revkor]

I say engines. take battleship Texas. she can only go 21 knots if her engines worked but the Iowa's can go 33 knots and that is not a physics issue but a engine tech issue

[@AidenDark]

​@@Revkor there are physics issues in it though. Laminar flow, or the properties of a liquid flowing over a surface effect the speed of ships. In this case the Iowa does move faster than the Texas but its a combination of hull design and engines. The same could be said and is mentioned in trek. The "warp bubble geometry" of various ships.

[@yewtoob2007]

@@AidenDark and of course Scotty being a Trek hero character would know that all like the back of his hand **KONK** Yes, so Scotty is likely referring to his knowledge of the ship's limits amd not a Law of Trek Physics. So, when did this narrative analogue for the speed of light, "Warp 10" begin? Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home?

[@Revkor]

@@AidenDark engine more then deisgn

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Given that the Enterprise once went Warp 14 simply by virtue of a mechanical error in the engines, I don't think the limit is one of physics

[@TONYGILLEY]

I myself never liked the Transwarp phrasing, possibly due to the absurdity of "Threshold," the already WAY too overpowered nature of the Borg, and the sheer stupidity of the writers of ANY JJ Abrams/Alex Kurtzman production. Warp Drive just sounds impressive enough. It's certainly more impressive than using magic mushrooms/spores to travel the Galaxy instantaneously. The idea of advancements in technology allowed the Warp scale to be increased between TOS and TMP to TNG eras, which is far more plausible; This even applies to Archer's Era as well.

[@alexmckee4683]

Yeah Star Trek from the movie era to the late TNG series felt like it was based on mature scientific and engineering concepts. From Voyager onwards it got sillier and sillier, with "cool" stuff like quantum slipstream drive to the ludicrous transwarp in Threshold and just ever more plot driven stuff, throwaway concepts, etc. I think this probably parallels the decay in the writing room away from people who actually had some genuine scientific and engineering knowledge towards people who did not. Kurtzman era speaks for itself in how utterly brain-dead most of the concepts are.

[@Tuning3434]

@@alexmckee4683 Voyager doubled down on the 'loose writing conventions / e.g. story goes above worldbuilding' that was always a thing in TOS and actually quite a lot of TNG as well. It is just that TNG also had a few writers that really did some of the essential world building, that we consider TNG as the source of lore (and it is, except when it isn't). Voyager didn't felt obliged to follow those rules that strictly, because the writer team felt them as too limiting. I would argue there was an era where the writing team considered scientific consultancy as an inspirational source, and as a limiting source. While I do think TOS and TNG draw more inspiration of it, there is also a lot of nonsense technobabble junk in TNG, it was just that they didn't want to focus and resolve every episode with it to the extend to how Voyager sometimes did to solve 'action excitement' with 'the great reset for next episode'. TNG could always revert back to 'repairs at Starbase ###' in the coda of their episodes.

[@HuntingTarg]

​@@Tuning3434 I read what you're describing as throwing away 'realistic near-futurism' in favor of 'the rule of cool.' Sure TNG and DS9 invented stuff, but they didn't throw established science out the window. I could never before succinctly describe what happened to the writing between the start of TNG and the end of Voyager. Thank you.

[@samb2834]

My take has always been that the Transwarp project in the Excelsior failed but Starfleet engineers were able to gain enough useful data for improvements that then allowed for the adjusted warp scale. True Transwarp is achievable by more sophisticated civilisations but very complex to implement. The Borg Transwarp conduits are an attempt to build guide rails around some other species' attempts at making a Transwarp drive. Too complex to implement on a ship-by-ship basis, easier to build something that more closely resembles a pocket wormhole with fixed ends.

[@Qermaq]

Here's the math. Up to warp 9, the speed relative to c is the warp factor to the 10th power, then cube rooted. So the actual velocity at warp w is w^(10/3). Warp 8 is 1024 times the speed of light, because the cube root of 8 is 2, and 2^10 is 1024. (It doesn't matter what order you do the 10th power and the cube root.) Above warp 9 there's another factor that plays in for reasons, and this at warp 10 you become a lizard and mate with your captain.

[@HuntingTarg]

So at Warp 10 the asymptote intersects the zygote?

[@olympicnut]

Definitions change over time. What transwarp meant in the 23rd century did not have to be the same in the 24th. "Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise" is actually a guide of the 1701. The end of the book does cover the A, however. It shows close-ups of the displays on the bridge and transwarp drive is indicated to be on the A. (Continuity becomes a mess after that)

[@entropy11]

I can agree with this interpretation, with Transwarp being the evolutionary "Find ways to go faster with warp technology" and quantum slipstream being the really revolutionary tech.

[@HuntingTarg]

I don't remember the explanation given behind Quantum Slipstream, but I do remember being unimpressed by it. Too many things got the 'Quantum' label slapped on them; the Defiant had 'quantum torpedoes', for example. I never felt like they were 'legit' the way other 'writer-invented' tech in Star Trek was. Slipstream might sound cool to casual audiences, but Star Trek fans were not a casual audience the way fans of Cheers or Grey's Anatomy were. If I wanted to come up with a new propulsion tech, I might have called it "Supraspatial Quantum Tunneling Field", or "SQT Field" for brevity. So yes, I used 'Quantum', but now people don't have to _SAY_ "Quantum" a dozen or two times in an episode.

[@viktorfunk1819]

I bought the TNG tech manual back in the 90's. It explained that they recalculated warp speed in the intervening years for simplicity's sake, to avoid having to use expressions like warp 9.999.

[@Lorem_ipsum_dolor_sit_amet]

"All speeds available through transwarp drive" I always assumed that transwarp, in the context of ST III, meant a zero acceleration curve. Starships use to have to accelerate up to their desired warp factor (warp 1 -> warp 2 -> etc). This along with the Excelsior being designed from the ground up with the new vertical wardcore meant it'd naturally be significantly faster than the Constitution class. The 'transwarp' we'd naturally think of didn't exist until, I think it was that TNG 2 parter with Lore and the Borg. Transwarp in STIII (1984) =/= transwarp in TNG ( The Descent 1993)

[@HuntingTarg]

Calling them "Transwarp Conduits" meant to me that they were some sort of hyperspatial energy structure, along the lines of 'Superstrings', that didn't require intense energy output to use, only to 'construct.' A forward comparison might be how the MCU portrayed the Bifrost. It was like an 'energy highway' that the nu-Borg co-engineered both the conduits and their ships to operate together to use the principle of transwarp (whatever that was) without generating the whole phenomenon from the ship alone.

[@jblyon2]

@@HuntingTarg This is accurate as far as I'm aware. The Borg transwarp network was an actual network of established conduits. The ships however could use the same tech to create their own temporary conduits. Those conduits were temporary, speeds were slower, the energy cost was higher, and the components involved would burn out with use.

[@PuppetDungeon]

Pretty sure "transwarp" was just a buzzword created for Excelsior's new engine. It literally just means "faster than warp". The reason it disappeared was just because warp engines improved, and it wasn't a special technology like say the Spore Drive. Great video.

[@scimbrelo]

“ in conclusion, the Excelsior was under appreciated” made me chuckle, in a good way

[@randyfant2588]

As I understand it, the Excelsior's trans warp drive was a new type of warp drive that was suppose to provide speeds far in excess of warp 10. It wasn't abandoned because Scotty sabotaged it, the Excelsior was it's test bed and it was heavily tested during the Star Trek 3-5 period and failed to produce the greater speed in practice that the theoretical model promised. It still worked, just not any better than the standard warp drive but far more complex, more complicated and prone to failure and more expensive, so Starfleet deemed it a failed experiment and the rest of the Excelsior class were equip with conventional warp drives. As for the Excelsior being a "cruiser", no she was a Battleship with much greater firepower and limited armor. Where most ships in Starfleet were "starships" meaning they were primarily ships for science and exploration, having extensive scientific facilities, while equipped with more limited firepower to defend herself if attacked, the Excelsior class had only basic scientific facilities and were very heavily armed, intended with the primary role of protecting the Federation border against invasion. The Miranda class (USS Reliant) was also designed on this basis, as a cheap version of the Constitution class with much more limited scientific facilities to act as cruisers for patrolling the the Klingon and Romulan borders and escorting the Excelsiors in combat. Both served Starfleet, with numerous upgrades up to the Dominion Wars.

[@mattwho81]

Excelsior experimental drive allowed ships to instantly go to any warp speed, whereas Enterprise would have to go through warp 1-8 to reach nine. What made it Transwarp was that it went beyond the existing scale. Exclesior drive soon set a new standard, which was why the TNG scale was redesigned. Warp 9.2 for Galaxy class would be warp 12 for Constitution.

[@grahck4391]

I recall reading in one of the novels (I don't recall which) where Scotty comments about the old TOS era Connies that the engines were able to be over clocked to reach higher speeds that normally wouldn't be possible, and Scotty had made modifications to the Enterprise to make this easier and more stable for short bursts of speeds, which became the foundation of the upgrades for the TMP era Enterprise, which later paved the foundation for the Excelsior's transwarp drive. I also recall reading in a TOS/TNG crossover novel where Scotty steals the TOS era Yorktown and flies it into Romulan space to rescue Spock from the Romulans, and succeeds where Picard aboard the Enterprise fails. Scotty also shows off the capabilities of the old Connies by taking on numerous TNG era Romulan Warbirds and almost succeeds in defeating them single handedly before the Yorktown was too crippled to fight. They were saved by Picard and the Enterprise.

[@gregb1104]

While I read and appreciate everyone's comments, I believe that "Jeremy-83" is the closest to being correct. If you look up the meaning of the prefix "trans" this is what the definition states: * on the other side of * to go beyond * to cross over * to pass through * to overcome To me, this means a Transwarp ship has Warp 1 through 9.99... and the Transwarp drive takes it beyond 9.99... Hence, "to cross over" to Transwarp speeds, "to pass through" the previous barrier of Warp 9.99, "to go beyond" Warp 9.99, and "to overcome" the other ship they are chasing. I'm not sure where the idea that Transwarp meant going directly to that speed came from. But the way the "Trans" prefix is defined, it seems they would have to accelerate through the other warp speeds to get to Transwarp speeds. Star Trek VI - The Undiscovered Country: Sulu: In range? Helm Officer: Not yet sir. Sulu: Come on. Come on. Helm Officer: She'll fly apart. Sulu: Then, fly her apart! Unfortunately, they never state which warp speed they are at or if they're using the Transwarp drive at that moment on the U.S.S. Excelsior. One might assume that they are using the high end of Transwarp speeds, and this is why the Helm Officer says, "She'll fly apart". Star Trek - Into Darkness: Dr. Marcus: He's gonna catch up with us, and when he does, the only thing that's gonna stop him from destroying this ship is me, so you have to let me talk to him. Kirk: Carol, we're at warp. He can't catch up with us. Dr. Marcus: Yes, he can. He's been developing a ship that has advanced warp capabilities... Sulu: Captain! I'm getting a reading I don't understand. (A Transwarp signature?) Thanks for reading!

[@gregb1104]

When we talk about warp speed being multiples and cubes of the Speed of Light, one thing that is not mentioned here is the following from online sources: According to the current understanding of physics, we can never go faster than the speed of light. This is because the speed of light is the limit for any object with mass, and accelerating to the speed of light would require infinite energy and result in infinite mass of the accelerating object. The speed of light is also essential for the laws of causality and special relativity, which would be violated by any hypothetical particle that could travel faster than light (tachyons?). ********** I know that they show warp drive ships traveling through space with the stars flying by and many times on Star Trek they talk about it taking hours or days to get to their destination. When I was young, I thought the "warp" drive meant they were warping space back on itself. If true, then you wouldn't see the stars flying by and it wouldn't take hours or days to get to their destination. Warping space back onto itself means instantaneous travel from point A to B. Like how the Spore Drive works on the U.S.S. Discovery. A quick joke: When I was in college taking engineering classes, one of my professors asked, "What's the fasted way to get from point A to point B?" A student in the class said, "A straight line." I raised my hand and said "Unless you watch Star Trek. Then the fastest way from point A to point B is a "point". LOL However, everyone is probably going to tell me that the warp engines don't warp space. But think about it, if the warp engines did warp space, they would be creating a wormhole and traveling great distances would (or could) be instantaneous. ********** From Online Sources: A wormhole is a hypothetical structure connecting disparate points in spacetime and is based on a special solution of the Einstein field equations. A wormhole can be visualized as a tunnel with two ends at separate points in spacetime (i.e., different locations, different points in time, or both). Wormholes are consistent with the general theory of relativity, but whether wormholes actually exist remains to be seen. Theoretically, a wormhole might connect extremely long distances such as a billion light-years, or short distances such as a few meters, or different points in time, or even different universes. Thanks for reading!

[@parrot849]

Don’t forget in the episode “Changeling,” from the original Star Trek series, Sulu told Captain Kirk he was registering on his monitors as what eventually turned out to be the, in fact, the Changeling, was approaching the Enterprise at Warp 15 (or it’s green-colored destructive energy beam, I can’t remember which)

[@VestedUTuber]

This is an artifact of the rescaling of warp speeds. The "Transwarp" drive originally included on the USS Excelsior was really just an advanced warp drive that became commonplace by the time of TNG.

[@markplott4820]

star trek Spaceflight Chronology (pocket books) mentions in 24th Century Development of ULTRA warp.

[@VhenRaTheRaptor]

Honestly... I assume it's just a Starfleet [internal, possibly originally in engineering circles and then subsequently misused by people who don't understand] terminology for warp drive technology superior to current warp drive. The second it gets adopted in large amounts it ceases to be transwarp.

Transwarp is a simple collective term for all types of technology that are faster than warp. Just like "wormhole" as said in a Voyager episode. However, as the warp drive has evolved, the definition of "transwarp" has of course changed over time. Warp factor 12 on the old scale corresponds to just Warp 9.4 on the TNG scale. And Warp 14 of the old scale corresponds to Warp 9.8 of the TNG scale. Both are speeds that Starfleet could not achieve on its own in the 23rd century, but which are within the range of what is technically possible in the 24th century. The Voth then developed this classic warp technology even further. They probably use a similar transwarp system to the failed shuttle experiment with Tom Paris, at least based on the CGI effect. They have found a way to be way faster than normal warp, but without breaking the barrier, with all its negative side effects. The Borg use tunnels through subspace, similar to the Xindi. Something in between warp and wormhole. The only truly exotic space travel technology is space folding (coaxial warp or Sikarian space trajectory or Rutian teleporter (inverter)) I assume the technology of the Kalandans and the Iconians are also based on space folding.

[@Transit_Biker]

One of the things that people tend to forget within Star Trek, is that scientists and researchers were constantly trying to push the boundaries of what was possible and were also discovering new ways to do things that may be slightly different than the older tech but could have improvements to a lesser or greater degree. Even real life navies had these types of experimentations and testing of new concepts. A excellent example over on the battleship New Jersey KZbin channel is shown by the difference between the New Jersey’s skegs and the other three Iowa class battleships. And I guess the greater point is that even if a technology has been found to be superior to something, it may not replace that older tech, or something else is developed that supersedes that particular innovation.

[@eXcommunicate1979]

Your theory has been my theory for several years now. In fact, I've been trying to convince everyone for several years (lol) that the "transwarp" drive just became the standard for all ships, and that there was no canon evidence for the "failure" of the Excelsior transwarp experiment. It was a resounding success and became the new standard warp drive and scale. How I envisioned it was like this. The "old" warp engines had a scale that was akin to a car stuck in first gear. It's an inelegant "brute force" technology that just used more and more power the further up the scale you went. The "new" or "transwarp" drives were akin to a car with a 9-speed automatic transmission. As you approached a new warp factor you reached a critical amount of power necessary before it hit the next "gear" (warp factor), where the power requirements noticeably dropped, and this is why you generally wanted to travel at whole number warp factors. These drives became possible after 200 years of warp field research, experimentation, and field testing, culminating in the Excelsior program. Any "transwarp" we hear about later is just a general term for anything that transcends warp or uses other, generally faster, methods.

[@timefilm]

If people actually watched Star Trek 3, including the future Star Trek writers, transwarp was just all powers, thrusters, impulse, warp available through the one engine. Thus when the captain tells Scotty he’s looking forward to breaking the enterprise speed records, he’s not just talking about how fast it goes, but it’s ability to get somewhere without having to prime the different engines that the ship needs for its various speeds.

[@dustinherk8124]

my head canon is that the Excellsior's "transwarp" was a federation warp break through, that basically amounts to going from the old TOS era warp scale, too the TNG era warp scale with an infinite scaling issue as you approach warp 10.

[@davidalangay1186]

Great video. I always felt the Excelsior class was more than just a faster ship myself. The sheer size of it, including a very massive hanger bay, implied it could carry more, handle more types of support ships than just shuttle craft, and probably had much larger labs and other facilities. It was likely a command ship of sorts. I like your ship models as well. Very crisp and attractive rendering. I can only imagine what you've done with the "interesting" classes like the Decatur class starships.

[@markplott4820]

it was MORE warship than the ENTERPRISE class (NEW Connie) starships. the term BATTLE Cruiser comes up.

[@davidalangay1186]

@@markplott4820 perhaps, but the Excelsior itself was on an assignment to catalog gaseous anomalies before it came across the Praxis explosion. This implies multiple functionality in mission assignments, much like the Constitution class and the Constitution refit class.

[@willgillies5670]

The fan designations in Trek-Tech circles seem to be that the the warp drives of the TOS (and NX- Calss era) were Circumferential Warpd drives and the TMP Refit Style was the Linear Warp engines, and this is why post TMP ships mostly had big Warp cores, whereas in TOS, the actual matter/antimatter integration was going on in the front of the Nacelles. instead of Warp core ejection, you would deatch and discard of a nacelle and get the shape as far away before it blows up.

[@springbloom5940]

Excelsior was an experimental ship and was ultimately a failure. The Captain says, "If he tries to get away with warp drive, hes really in for a shock', clearly establishing that Excelsior's transwarp drive is something different and separate from warp drive.

[@HuntingTarg]

It doesn't *establish* that, it _suggests_ that. The only thing the audience is supposed to understand is that "warp drive cannot outrun transwarp drive."

[@springbloom5940]

@@HuntingTarg It does establish it. Many 'suggestions' are made prior to the final moment where the Excelsior's drive is distinguished from common warp drive.

[@HuntingTarg]

@@springbloom5940 If you're saying that that final element of dialog "establishes" it because it's been alluded to up to that point, I'm saying you're mistaken from a waiting perspective. We never see the Excelsior's Transwarp drive actually operate, so that's a 'claim without a demonstration.' It could be as simple as different speed scales as the video discusses, analagous to the difference between subsonic and supersonic aircraft. Or it could be a fundamental difference like that between an 'air-breathing' engine and a rocket. I probably should rewatch ST III, it's been a while; "but if memory serves", we don't _know._ It's implied; it's not stated, explained, or demonstrated. So it's not established. Nevertheless... _"I want to believe"_

[@dereksherwood3794]

Excelsior's a beautiful ship, surprised you didn't talk about it's other special propulsion modification though. It gets an additional 5 horsepower for every anime sticker ya put on the nacelles! ;D

[@CMVBrielman]

I’m a simple trek fan. I see the Excelsior, and I click. As a kid, 3 was probably the first Star Trek movie I saw (beat up vhs copy), and the one I saw the most. The Excelsior will always have a special place in my heart - even as a kid I was horrified by Scotty sabotaging her.

[@k1productions87]

I often wonder how my Trek experience would have been, had my introduction been Search for Spock. I know 6-year-old Me wouldn't have liked it, had I started with Wrath of Khan. Fortunately for me, Voyage Home was my first ever Star Trek, and it captured my soul and never let go. Though Search for Spock remains very near and dear to my heart for numerous reasons. I am one of these super rare fans that but both Voyage and Search above Wrath of Khan (which,... lets be honest with ourselves here, we only watch for the space battles anyway)

[@HuntingTarg]

​@@k1productions87 I really appreciated Kirstey Alley as Saavik; I couldn't get used to anyone else. I think I was part of audience consensus which is why Saavik was written out at the start of ST IV .

[@k1productions87]

@@HuntingTarg She wasn't written out of ST IV as much as she was written IN for a bit part. The only reason she didn't appear in ST VI is because neither Robin nor Kirstey could do it, and they didn't want to re-cast the role a THIRD time. Honestly, I would have kinda liked to have seen the emotional impact it would have had for the familiar Saavik to be the one in Valeris' shoes.

[@HuntingTarg]

@@k1productions87 YES. THIS. The great character arc that never was... It could have been much higher - and darker - drama for Spock to mindrape his own protegé to unravel a murderous conspiracy. Alas, we shall never know for sure...

[@Vagajammer]

From what I read, Warp speeds in the time of TOS were calculated as factor^3 (so warp 5 would be 125 (5*5*5) times the speed of light) But in TNG, the speeds were such that the old system was no longer able to keep up, so the speeds are now calculated as factor^5 (so warp 5 would be 3,125 (5*5*5*5*5) times the speed of light)

[@chrisgregory3955]

I like the idea of "Trans Warp Drive" being shortened to "Warp Drive" later as it became the new standard. It's the same way you had "Battleships" go to "Dreadnaught Type Battleships" or "Post-Dreadnaught Battleship" and eventually to just either "Dreadnaughts" or back to "Battleships" as the pre-dreadnaught battleships were retired and disappeared from use.

[@ronwit]

One of my headcanons is that the old scale is yes WF cubed. The new scale is not WF to the power 3.33 but rather WF to the power (10/3). If you look at the TNG tech manual there is a graph that shows the warp scale. As a ship accelerates it approaches the next warp factor asymptoticly. Then break through to the next warp factor. This is why ships generally cruise at even warp factors. Just past the asymptote is the most efficient speed for that warp. When you reach your top speed and approach the asymptote you can't break through to the next warp factor. Six or eight for the old Connie's, ten for the Galaxy class. In TOS they were using effective warp speed. You took the cube root and gave that as your warp factor. In TNG you used decimal places approaching warp ten. Also in the cage someone mentions that the new ships had broken the time barrier. So fan sources called the TOS generation engines time warp drives. Just as they might have called the TNG engines transwarp drives.

[@crsrdash-840b5]

But nobody has ever explained 'where' is the trans warp drive located? When I was growing up i was told that the neck section with those vents were the trans warp area.

[@don312000]

Great minds think alike! I've been saying for years that the difference in warp scales from TOS to TNG was because the TNG scale was based on transwarp! Pretty cool that I'm not the only one to think of that.

[@omegashrike]

While I do like the idea that research related to the Excelsior led to the change in warp scale, and like the old FASA books, I don't think we can take those warp speed figures seriously. The problem is that warp 12 on the old scale is still around warp 9.3 on the TNG scale, and warp 14 is pushing past warp 9.8. That would make the Excelsior faster than the Enterprise-D and mean that there were no further advancements in propulsion over the following 80 years.

[@TheRealNormanBates]

1:30 FASA (once again) had a really good explanation for the discrepancies. In TOS and TMP eras, Warp was measured in a different way. By the time of TNG, warp measurements were redefined to fit a 10 digit system. In other words, they went from English rule to the Metric system. 2:35 I still wish you did a detailed overview of the K’tinga in regards to it’s true size (as the lights on the pod and the pod cap are windows/floor levels, and there is an observation deck above the shuttle bay). 8:30 there is a paperback novel that explained the Doomsday Machine was created as a Borg killer. It was also revealed that Warp 10 was an impossibility: the closer you reached it, the more anomalies would happen until you were stuck in a causation loop, stuck in infinity. 10:30 I would love to see a future video getting closer to the Excelsior and showing the weapon arcs, as well as the shuttle bay (and whatever the blue area is on the rear lower hull).

[@mrsamaritan6881]

I wouldn't go by thing in that paperback novel. According to it, the Preservers built the Doomsday Machine just outside the galaxy. Which not only cheapens the Doomsday Machine and the idea there could be more wandering the universe outside of the Milky Way. But the idea that the Preservers, who preserve planets, built a planet-killer to fight the Borg, who famously rarely use planets, instead spending most of their time on their cube ships, is such a colossally stupid idea. The whole thing comes off as J.J Abrams level bad fan fiction writing.

[@sabrewolf4129]

That blue lit thing down below is just another shuttle bay, even the model shows the doors down there.

[@Snotnarok]

The Excelsior has to have been a great build because well into the TNG they were still using it for various tasks and it even did solid work against the Defiant. Which- while a much smaller ship wasn't designed for war- yet it held it's own against a much more modern ship.

[@mahatmarandy5977]

I could be mistaken, but I do not remember the original series Bible ever having any kind of scale for thewarp factors. Or “ time warp factors” as per the pilot. If I recall correctly, that was just one of those things that writers were not supposed to worry about getting specific on, and that warp was ultimately defined as the speed of plot. I made up that phrasing myself, but I remember the writers Bible saying that in a more dignified fashion. As far as I can remember the idea of or factors being cubes of the number was introduced in 1975 in the Franz Joseph technical manual, Which appears to be something the author himself made up. At the time the movie came out people had pretty much excepted the cube thing as Fannon, and I consistently heard people say that trans war drive was the war factor to the fourth power instead of the third. Again, That was Fanon. There is a throwaway line in Star Trek three where someone says, “all speeds attainable through trans warp Drive.” Which a lot of people discussing at the time might have meant that the ship can simply go whatever speed it wants. There is a line in the novelization that mentions that a small transwarp prototype ship had just made it to Andromeda. I assume that was something the author simply made up on their own initiative but still an interesting idea.

[@Furzkampfbomber]

I love Star Trek since I watched my first classic episode on west-german tv when I was six and was immediately fascinated. I grew up in the GDR, it was illegal to watch western tv, but most people did it anyway. Being confined by that wall, west-german tv was my window to the world, but Star Trek... Star Trek was my window to the stars, to the universe and to a dream of a better humankind, a better world. This might sound dramatic, but that's how it is and that is why I love Star Trek so much. But I totally digress, what I actually wanted to say is that despite being quite the Star Trek nerd, I never really cared about Warp factors and accuracy when it came to the speed of starships. Sure, there are points where things stopped making even the slightest sense for me, like that Voyager episode (although Tezunegari gave an explanation in the comments that actually puts some sense into why Janeway and Paris turned into newts), but all in all, I always saw the 'speed question' as a tool, as a story element that helped increasing the suspense, if this is the right term. This does not mean I don't understand that and why people care about this, it's just the way I see it.

[@DaiAtlus79]

7:30 as well, you see in STIV on the new bridge that she has Excelsior class instrumentation. i think they misunderstood the warp scale, and had to redraw it because of Excelsior. I think it started with Intermix in TMP and vastly improved by Excelsior, which WASNT a failure. 23rd Century Trans Warp was branding, like 'Transcending the old Warp scale'. Best part was with the new engineering acumen they introduced in the refit era, all they had to do was a quick swap of the warp core etc vs a large scale refit IE ships were a lot more modular in the movie era (lower downtimes in starbase), like clamshell nacelles etc. Also, i would like to add, i suspect another reason for 1701 being retired was the same reason 1701-A was, there was a new Excelsior waiting in the wings to be the new flagship bearing the name Enterprise, then Jim Kirk fouled that up (giving a new ship that was going to be christened under another registry, originally), so she ended up waiting another almost decade to be refitted and used as an improvement over the NCC-2000, making it a new subclass. Also the build quality issue Scotty comments on rings quite true, as they were in an arms race til the destruction of Praxis.

[@AluVixapede]

Admittedly, I always kinda thought 'Transwarp' was like 'Overdrive' - A flashy new buzzword in the federation to indicate that it's honestly just a regular warp system, but with an extra set of coils or something that makes it go just a little bit faster at the cost of maneuverability. (Kinda like how Overdrive sounds Much Much Much cooler than 'we added another gear to the gearbox, that's better suited for cruising and using less gas')

[@sdcherokee9407]

the warp scale was re-calibrated from TOS when an upper limit to warp speed was found. similar to celcius, the freezing point being zero, and the boiling point being 100, the new warp scale was 1-10, the 10 being the newfound upper limit.

[@thegreenmanofnorwich]

Mr Scott's Guide To The Enterprise mostly covered the Enterprise refit, and only the last section covers the Enterprise-A. It also has really, really weird grasp of dates that conflicts with the date of the Romulan Ale in TWOK.

[@terranempire2]

I think you are correct to a point. I think Starfleet had hopes for faster than the Excelsior achieved. However as they were doing trials they kept getting structural stress warnings. We see in STVI when Sulu is trying to get to Kitomer to aid the Enterprise his helmsman warned that the ship could “Fly apart”. In the less weird parts of Threshold the Voyager tries to catch the Shuttle and the computer starts warning of Structural stresses. Paris during simulations in the attempt kept failing as the Shuttle’s warp nacelles kept shearing off. In the 32nd century designs we see Starfleet’s new ships including the refit Discovery now have Nacelles free floating likely solving the issue of the nacelles being ripped off.

[@SuperGamefreak18]

I always seen the excelsior as structurally a total success, to the point the lessons of its design lessons were used on the most successful trek designs, soverign being one of the biggest examples in my opinion. I was always a member of the camp that the excelsior help rewrite the warp factor scale. Though I do like your theory that the term transwarp is a stage above the current warp scale.

[@danandtab7463]

always a fascinating topic to geek out on. Scotty's line about stopping up the drain her refers to the transwarp "computer drive" which in context of everything else makes it sounds like the warp drive has some kind of amazing automation component to it and that's the advance. but of course why would Sulu be impressed by that? In any case some of the weird novelizations of both Star Trek 5 and 6 suggest that the Enterprise A is indeed using transwarp drive, which always made me think that's what they just call "warp drive" from then on.

[@The_Lucent_Archangel]

Get even weirder when you recall the Voth also had a form of transwarp drive with a similar visual effect to the Warp 10 one from "Threshold". Not sure what impression that was supposed to give, that they perfected a form of that without the weird evolutionary side-effect or they just weren't greedy and figured out to keep shy of "infinite velocity".

[@jaredcolon4535]

I'm so glad you actually have four foreword torpedo launchers as the Canon model shows the Excelsior class to have so many other channels insist there's only two when it's clear as you have illustrated the model has four foreword launchers. It is one clear intent to have the ship have double at least that of fire power to a constitution

[@jarilehtinen2909]

Warp 13 in Tos scale is roughly warp 9.95 in TNG scale. I have always "known/assumed" that Excelsior transwarp was failure and Scotty saved the Excelsior from destruction by sabotage.

[@Jarvis-MkII]

When did Styles say "Warp your eye"? I always heard it as "if he tries to get away we'll Warp Drive" said with a slight drawl.

[@dennislaur2515]

I remember reading some where that the warp drive the the Excelsior had in ST:3 was based on the scans the Enterprise too of interphase space in the episode The Tholian Web. The Enterprise A was supposed to have had a similar warp drive, and the cause of it's issues during the start of ST:5, and allowed it to punch through the great barrier. Both warp drives proved to be difficult to use so by the time of ST:6, the drive was scrapped and all ships refitted with the old style of drives.

[@gmughadam76]

I don't know if anybody mentioned it in the comments, There's so many, but in TNG when they're trying to escape the borg in their first encounter, Jordi says they're at warp 9.65.

[@nekophht]

"Transwarp Drive" could've been shorthand for "Transformative Warp Drive." In such a case, the TNG scale could be the transwarp scale of the movie era, but since there was no longer a need to differentiate between the scales, they just called it "warp." It's possible that quantum slipstream and borg transwarp are related technologies. How do you handle slipstream's navigation issues? With the Borg, it seems like they just made safe travel corridors/conduits to pass through. In which case, Borg tech could be "transwarp" in the sense that it's "beyond warp" and the difference between transwarp and slipstream is "do you need a conduit network to achieve the speed, or do you use temporal sensors/pilot craft?"

[@Timberjac]

I mostly agree. But it is possible that the Transwarp experiment really failed, but it did open the door to new warp technologies so promising that they made the scale vary, putting a warp of 10 maximum that represented a theoretical threshold but surpassable with other technologies not yet discovered or simply theorized. Therefore, the initial experiment did fail, but the improvements applied to the nacelles gave the answer to the possible limits of the warp technology.

[@donhearn2248]

When I was a kid in the 80s, role playing games were all the rage, my nerd group played a ton of Star Fleet Battles, and the Fasa role playing game based on Star Trek. They mapped out one heck of universe that made tons of sense. Sadly, I really can't separate the two products all these years later...they kinda just merged into one for me. Either way, That universe was so much better then what Star Trek ended up becoming. As best as I can remember, in that universe the Transwarp drive was not flexible, you wound it up and it went in one direction with no change of direction vs standard warp being more flexible with the ability to deviate the heading to a degree while under warp ( as I recall this put stress on the craft with some ships being more robust then others when it came to this type of strain). That whole idea was born from an episode the enterprise was attacked while at warp by an Orion craft moving at high speed and changing direction. I want to say it was moving at warp 12...but I dont remember the episode ( in the role playing game it was an Orion lighting moving at warp 12). Anyways....as I recall the change of warp factor never made much sense in universe. To us that was akin....to changing all speedometer on cars because people would get confused when cars moved from 10 miles per hour to 20 miles per hour...due to adoption of gasoline powered engines or some such nonsense.... it was just dumb then, and it is dumb today.

[@Willpower-74205]

My understanding of the reason why transwarp wasn't used in later years (nothing mentioned in dialogue, anyway) was not due to Scotty's sabotage, but the fact that the system simply didn't perform the way that everyone expected. According to the U.S.S. Enterprise Owner's Workshop Manual, transwarp relied on an extremely complicated set of equations that boosted the power of a conventional warp engine in much the same way that the Kelvans had modified the Enterprise's engines in 2268. Ultimately, although the system could be made to work in computer models, in practice it proved unworkable and the Excelsior never managed to achieve the kind of sustainable speeds the project predicted. Transwarp was formally abandoned in 2287 and the Excelsior (as well as all subsequent ships of the class) were fitted with conventional warp engines. Ironically, due to advances in conventional warp theory, the Enterprise-B eventually attained greater speeds than those projected for the transwarp project. By the 24th century, transwarp was used to describe any velocity that exceeded conventional warp speeds and thus could cover a variety of technologies. It was used to describe the Borg subspace corridor network and Tom Paris's Warp 10 joyride that turned him and Janeway into pond critters. That's my two cents, anyway. There are always other theories. 🖖😎👍

[@laurajacobs9538]

The reason Sulu was so drawn to the Excelsior is that he was to be given command of the excelsior. This is revealed in a deleted clip from the time when they’re all shuttling over to the Enterprise A, near the end.

[@BillTomaras]

Actually, in Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology which was a book which was published in 1980 and was officially tied into The Motion Picture, the refit Enterprise is listed as a warp 12 heavy cruiser. The book was written and edited by Stan Goldstein and Fred Goldstein, and illustrated by Rick Sternbach. The book can be considered canon since it was an officially licensed product tied to TMP.

[@jime6688]

I always associated the longer nacelles not with speed, but more endurance and power, so my theory was it could run at high warp much longer with no need for “rest stops”.

[@markplott4820]

this was a Interim solution , while the BRAHMS warp drive was perfected in the 24th Century.

[@jimcook1161]

There actually is some documentary evidence that the transparency drive was a failure. There is an Enterprise D tech manual that mentions the other Enterprises. It states The Enterprise B being an Excelsior class ship and that the original transwarp experiments were a failure but the Hull was sound so Excelsior was refitted with a traditional warp drive and this drive was fitted all subsequent Excelsior ships.

[@D.L.Lawrence]

Maybe someone else brought it up in the comments.... I haven't read them all... but one thing you did not mention was the nacelle design change. There is a difference between the ST3 nacelles and the ST6 nacelles. It's been said that when Scotty sabotaged the Excelsior, he also exposed weaknesses in the transwarp drive, so the Excelsior had to have a change-over to standard warp style nacelles.

[@jwoody8815]

One of the best looking ships in the series and my favorite.

[@filipprochazka4961]

Personal guess was that the Excelsior managed to be significantly faster than the Constitution class ships, but it didn't manage to provide the massive breakthrough that was hoped for. Hence why it could have led to the revised TNG warp scale, but transwarp still remained elusive.

[@larrybremer4930]

Personally I just always made up my version of transwarp where it worked but was either not practical, reliable, or perhaps even caused negative health effects to the crew. In any case the issues appeared to have no solutions so the technology was abandoned and they refitted Excelsior with a conventional warp drive and simply kept improving the standard warp technology. Then as more was learned about the nature of warp they could theorize the maximum possible velocity and rescaled the formula so the factors would go from zero (stationary) with warp 1 marking c velocity (speed of light in a vacuum) and ending at warp 10 and scaled exponentially like the Richter scale.

[@ShinGoukiSan]

Mr Scotts Guide to the Enterprise was about 1701 Refit not the A. A go a small Appendix at the end

[@RyuuTenno]

My thoughts have generally been that, "Transwarp" is a name given to any form of warp travel, or alternative FTL speeds that are considerably higher than what the common speeds of the time are. Coupled with the fact that, while Starfleet probably had up to "Warp 15" or possibly even higher, it's likely that they simply established a system of redoing the warp factors. So, yes, TOS warp 10 is significantly slower than TNG's warp 9 without issues. But this would make sense, given that each significant iteration alters the scale quite a bit. However, I have a severe issue with the production team going with "warp 10 is the max speed limit", when in reality they could've had an in-universe explanation being that, Starfleet (or maybe just the Federation in general) capped their speeds off at warp 10, and then refactoring would be needed periodically to keep up with newer engines. So, they could still potentially reach warp 10 (and not the infinite velocity as seen in VOY), but then, after that, it would simply run into a practical limit with the engines, until such time as an incredible break through in engine design/technology comes up, and they'd need to refactor the warp scale again. So, maybe they'd get a serious boost one day, and then opt to run the math as being the warp number to the power of 4 (so, warp 4 would be 4 x 4 x 4 x 4, warp 6 would be 6 x 6 x 6 x 6, etc). Though, I have to say, it's interesting to hear that the refactoring in the math simply bumped it to warp ^ 3.3, cause I always heard that TOS was warp ^ 3, and TNG was warp ^ 5, meaning that TOS warp 3 would be 3 x 3 x 3, but, TNG's warp 3 would be 3 x 3 x 3 x 3 x 3. Definitely an interesting thing to learn. So, my understanding from this, was that each iteration of a warp drive tech (that of each of the different eras), would run off of a completely different refactor type. This would lead to ENT being warp ^ 1 (so warp 4 being 4x the speed of light), sometime between ENT and TOS being warp ^ 2, DSC/SNW/TOS being warp ^ 3, Enterprise C (Ambassador Class) era being warp ^ 4, TNG/DS9/VOY being warp ^ 5. Thus giving us greater scales to work with for times/distances in regards to each series/era. And sorry for the chaotic technical stuff.

[@michaelbarnard8529]

Btw, at 1000 times the speed of light (which is roughly the maximum speed ships should be able to travel if it takes a hundred years to get from one side of the galaxy to the other), it should take about a day to get from one star system to the nearest. That means that you would not see stars zipping by even at max warp speed. In order to see stars wiping past at warp speeds, you have to be going more than a few light years per second, or around 100 million times the speed of light. At that speed, it takes about a day to cross the galaxy. Oh, and that isn’t even factoring in that most stars in the galaxy are too dim to be seen from interstellar distances. In the night sky, you only see the big bright stars.

[@merquryj]

As technical and thorough as this was.....I completely understood. ❤

[@pdbouie]

Always loved the Excelsior class. Glad to see it got mad love in lore becaming the workhorse of Starfleet.

[@rmccombs66]

You put the formula with a cubed root. It should be cubed not cubed root. TOS warp formula is v(W) = W(^3) The as a superscript, which is hard to show here. You have it as a cubed root. For instance, 3 cubed is 9, and the cubed root of 9 is 3. You have the cubed root in your formula you should have cubed, not cubed root.

[@destinycaptain247]

8:00 - Gene was also extremely jealous of most of the development in the Trek film series after he was sidelined. He refused to acknowledge Transwarp. If I’m not mistaken there was an issue or two of Starlog from the summer of 87’ that featured updates about TNG that stated that Gene didn’t like it and didn’t want to use it. This was also the first place I learned of the new revised warp scale.!