Rethinking the Belt System - Shintaro Higashi Show

[@boshuabarris]

In my Judo club each belt grading we are required to do all throws of said belt grade (set by Kodakan), and then all hold downs, strangles and armbars which our instructor has required for us to demonstrate. All techniques must be performed to a very high standard, and it means that most of our club has a very high technical knowledge and ability. There is a minimum of six months period between each belt. A black belt requires completing the nage-no-kata and all 40 throws in gokyu back to back. I believe this method of belt grading is fairly standard in Australia.

[@TakeItToTheGround]

Plus, in OZ, to get a blackbelt you need 100 points from competing. 10 points per blackbelt you beat.

[@judowithkeishin]

​@@TakeItToTheGroundthat's not true for all states.

[@Haolekine888]

The Gokyo has 40 techniques.

[@cortex8558]

While I was training judo my instructor did the exact same

[@joatanpereira4272]

that's the standard in Brazil, but we have katas earlier and as far as I know, you need at least 1 year

[@tonycrawford9833]

I am an American who went to school in Japan. All of the schools in our town still follow Kano's original belt system. Everybody starts as 6th Kyu with a light blue belt, 5th and 4th Kyu are a white belt, then 3rd, 2nd and 1st Kyu are purple belt. Most kids take their Shodan (1st Dan) test in the second or third year of high school and get their Kodokan membership card.

[@Theoriginalcoolguy]

When I went to hight school in Japan as an exchange student, all kyu grades were white belt until shodan.

[@dricedt]

The stripe idea is ok. I really like having the ceremony or attention for promotion. It adds more meaning and is a milestone in your journey. Handing them out like candy or with no importance, cheapens the effort the Judoka has put in.

[@Building_Brian]

I like the ideas of the stripes to encourage beginners. I also appreciate the thought to try and unify the BJJ and Judo rank systems. It will be difficult to get BJJ guys who are as proficient at stand up as the Judo guys get at ground work. Coming from a BJJ background we just don’t work standing techniques nearly enough.

[@knobel_obel9285]

In Germany we have one strict system which is dictated by the German Judo Federation and we have white, white and yellow, yellow, yellow and orange, orange, orange and green, green, blue ,brown and then black for children and white, yellow, orange, green, blue, brown, black for adults and we are promoted through exams which are also dictated by the GJF from 9th Kyu to 5th Dan. I'm 18, I do Judo for 12 years now and I have a blue belt so I'm practicing for my brown belt exam in which I have to be able to show and explain throws (O Guruma, Ashi Guruma, Ura Nage, Yoko Guruma, Sukui Nage, Te Guruma, Soto Maki Komi, Hane Maki Komi and Uki Otoshi) I have to show and explain submissions (Sankaku Jime, Sankaku Gatame, Sankaku Osae Gatame and Kata Te Jime), then there are complex tasks for standup and ground like show 2 variations for 3 of the throws and counter a failed attack of Uke with Shime Waze and show and explain for each submission a situation in which you can use it and in this tasks you should show your understanding of the techniques and your creativity and the last part of the exam is the Te-Waza part of the Nage No Kata, for green it was the Koshi Waza part and for blue the Ashi Waza part. If you are older than 15 years old you can do a selfdefence part insted of the complex tasks but I've never done that so I don't really know how that looks like I like our current belt system, the only flaws I see currently are that theoretically you can still suck at randori and have no deeper understanding of the techniques if the master (who has to be liceneced by the GJF) who oversees your exam isn't strict enough or doesn't care at all (or corrupt) and just signs your promotion. For black belt exams there are 3 masters who oversee the exam who are from 3 diffenrents Bundesländer ( German states) to prevent corruption and all the other problems

[@Harimau_meow]

This is teh Same In Ireland under Irish Judo association. I wouldnt be surprised if its a unified European system. Is there a european association? (just googled yes there is the EJU european Judo union)

[@zodiac154]

I remember visiting some judo schools as a new BJJ blue belt and wondering why judo belts seemed so watered down. That being said, I'm tired of guard pulling in purple belt competitions so it's time for me to put on my judo white belt again

[@emi842]

Really interesting debating about it. In my opinion, current colours belt system is fine for children, as they grow doing Judo from early ages. But, I like and agree with Shintaro ideas about finding a new system for adults who want begin in Judo. Anyway, great conversation! Thanks you both Masters🥋

[@diynevala]

Everybody is sharing, so here comes Finland with our own belt system: White: Total beginner, cannot compete. Yellow: Can handle ukemi and couple of throw techniques. Can train and compete safely. Orange: Some more tehcniques, hidari side as well. Green: Expected to compete in order to advance belt rank (otherwise minimum time doubled). Blue: Expected to assist instructor or instruct own classes. Extra coaching courses completed. Brown: Most of the techniques learned well. Black: All known techniques demonstrated well, active role in managing judo club. These are the belt ranks for all ages. Additionally, juniors under 15 years get 1-3 red stripes as stages between the belts and stripes also mean "don't use locks or chokes on this young judoka". There are also some required courses to complete, mostly how to coach or referee.

[@defcomtv7382]

Love it! I wish more people would think out of the box. I’m a BJJ black belt with 3 school and have definitely redone some stuff to make my students more dangerous. If you bring stuff up like this again, it would definitely be cool to have myself or another BJJ rep to speak to your points… Keep it up, gents. I love what you do. 💪

[@UnderPressurePressureWashing]

I like the concept of having the tournaments broken down into beginner, intermediate, and advanced. Also having rank points for Ippons in competitions

[@ddegeo10]

Getting a yellow belt in Judo felt way weirder to me than getting stripes in bjj. I totally still felt like a novice and it felt like there was an expectation that I was better than I felt. Stripes feel way more chill to get, just as a marker of progress.

[@ZanOGAL]

Ive been doing judo for 2-3 years.... ish and im a blue belt. Just because i memorise the curriculum and make attendance. Sometimes being promoted too fast can be a problem. Even for non competitors. The stripes makes getting promoted feels less daunting

[@gudea5207]

I feel so many judoka argue the opposite and say BJJ has no curriculum (or at least defined curriculum) which means they have no meaning. However I believe that the amount of rolling and to a lesser extent participation make the most well defined belts of any martial art.

[@Krooks44]

My Judo club does one grading a year. Judo in Canada is kind of weird. Not sure if it’s like this anywhere else. But the clubs can award all belts up to brown. But then for your black you have to have a certain number of points. Your BC Judo registrations per year and then you can qualify for a black belt grading. Which means there is a certain standard and not a ton of variance from club to club for what a black belt is. I have been doing Judo for 6 years on and off and will be grading for my brown belt this fall.

[@m5a1stuart83]

In my club you need a medal for a grading. without it you are not given a belt that is why people are leaving and only a strong survive. but once you try to get a Black (not mean to racist here) belt, you need to understand the basic techniques, Nage No Kata and win 3 Randori without it, you wont get a Black (not mean to racist here) belt.

[@edwhlam]

I think our (Judo Canada) system is a reasonable compromise. For dan grades, rank points are awarded both for competition and for teaching/service. As we get older, competitions are no longer a realistic expectation. I also like the requirement for NCCP qualifications, which helps to get rid of old and dangerous athletic practices.

[@AJ-ds5gf]

just a tip: you guys are both looking and facing at the edges of the video frame, if you had swapped the viewpoints over so the guy in the pink is on right right and the guy in the white is on the left, you'd look like you were both looking at each other which comes across on this split-screen video much better.

[@DuckRiverHomestead]

Purple belt in BJJ here. I think you're correct in this proposal. Minimum belt times (IBJJF) White Belt: 1 Year Blue Belt: 2 years Purple Belt: 1.5 years Brown Belt: 1 year Quickest time to black should be 5.5 years Most people take 7 to 12 years.

[@DuckRiverHomestead]

Also, No kid should ever be a black belt. Blue/Purple starts at 16. A BJJ professor can skip blue for a student that's turning 16 although I've never seen this.

[@DuckRiverHomestead]

What I'd love to see is every BJJ school having an in-house Judo teacher. We actually do a lot of Judo standup in my school. Also I often refer to your videos before teaching the standing techniques my classes. (Purple belts can be instructors)

[@jeffreyokyere133]

In BJJ I've been a white for 2 years now. I'll probably get my blue belt by the end of the year

[@Simonvbaal]

At The Jiu Jitsu Foundation (not bjj, for folks from the US), the Kyu system is tied to technique proficiency and you need to be graded for the complete set of techniques you are supposed to know, both as a demo and in a pressure scenario. It's nice because it facilitates learning at an appropriate level without you having to know your uke. For example, you always know: I have to limit myself to osoto gari, kosoto gake, and koshi guruma because my uke is a yellow belt and may not be able to safely fall out of e.g., ouchi gari. This also gives you a decently clear path ensuring proficiency and time-on-mat: if I can apply all these techniques nicely in a demo and effectively/safely in a pressure scenario, I will be ready for my next belt.

[@MegaGoalShow]

Love your content you are a gem, your work does not go unnoticed

[@DanielTateNZ]

Your mixed school/ belt idea is great.

[@rewrose2838]

I really like your ideas! Also, the idea of giving out badges based on impressive displays of technique or power. Like, every high level black belt gets a pair of official/verifiable badges that they can give out to any judo practitioner if they find their technique impressive.

[@rosebrown1554]

This conversation really needs to be addressed across the board. Most people who start judo/jujitsu quit. I believe it is because not enough attention is paid to them. I believe the stripe system is GREAT. I believe attendance should be used as main source to go to next belt along with skills shown. This should be reinforced at start of training as well before bowing out. One who attends above regular attendance should excel quickly towards the next belt of course along with skills shown. Some use the dojo as a place to sweat and leave while others really focused on someday becoming that Ultimate BLACK BELT. Loved your content.

[@Tehz1359]

The dojo I trained at had a pretty clear path to follow in regards to belts. From white belt all the way to brown belt. And you had a certain amount of time to learn how to do these certain things in a proficient manner. Some belts took longer then others of course. And the black belt requirements were a whole different system. Once you were 1st kyu, you were eligible to start that process. Once you do, it's a minimum of another year of not only preparation but fulfilling other requirements. My dojo valued not only skill in black belts, but also expected a certain level of maturity and commitment. It took me almost six years to get mine there.

[@alejandroflores2355]

I'm probably someone in that old guy judo demo that you're trying to bring in and keep. At the moment training both TKD (with son) and newbie in Judo (with daughter). TKD belt promotions are pretty transparent and make use of the stripe system (different colored electrical tape). The color of the stripes are tied to proficiency in specific skills (also correlates with time) with an orange stripe that's kind of a cumulative indicator of readiness to test to the next belt level. I could definitely see this working well in Judo where, at least to this point, there's a lot greater cognitive load in what's required to level up. I think a colored stripe system could work well for beginners, particularly, in helping them build their own mental model of the different elements of judo (e.g., nage waza, katame waza). You could also use colors to signify fundamental skills across lower belt ranks, like your green stripe is always ukemi proficiency. You could also potentially use a color stripe to unify the competition/non-competition pathways. For instance, you could earn your black stripe by competing in a tournament, but you can also learn it by working hard through a certain number of randori or just cumulative effort/dedication if someone doesn't randori. What I like about this system is it helps you focus on specific things that are appropriate to your level and also shows you pretty explicitly how close/far you are from the next belt level. Also helps the sensei/master know what needs assessment.

[@MC-sf4ht]

Interesting ideas regarding belts in judo. My experience doing marial arts in Korea, regardless of martial art, always 10 levels before 1st dan (colours vary). Students test on average every 1-3 months. 1st dan doesn't mean much, it just means you got a grasp of the basics. To promote past 1st dan you have to compete, or if adult, have to demonstrate your randori one night in class (in my case my instructor's national champion friend came by one night and I had to do randori with him, and he and my instructor decided I held my own and I got my 1st dan). Maybe in western countries there is too much emphasis on 1st dan?

[@jessehendrix2661]

I think black belt represents the ability to correctly perform all the techniques of the martial art, so those techniques should be distributed in a logical way throughout the ranks. You could either give out new belts at regular testing ceremonies or just in class, but either way you have to demonstrate the techniques to the sensei's satisfaction before being promoted. If someone can't perform a technique for some legitimate reason (bad knees, mental disability, etc) you can substitute some other challenge which is achievable for them or base it on time in attendance. If you're worried about the rewards being too infrequent, just add more belt colors. But I think getting to move on to a new technique (meaning you got down the one you were working on) would be reward enough, and you want new belts to be infrequent enough to mean something. If you want to honor competition success you could give out gold, silver, and bronze stripes depending on how they place. Another option could be to use a single color and only give it out for winning a tournament. Once you get a new belt, you start over adding stripes to it, so you can look back at all your old belts and see your past tournament wins. I don't think the stripe system should continue with black belt though because you would just accumulate too many after a while. Maybe you can get patches for 10 wins, 50 wins, 100 wins, 1000 wins, etc, or maybe at that point you just stop keeping track. But stripes at that point would indicate 1st dan, 2nd, etc.

[@CamerOneiric]

The belt system in BJJ is actually not consistent between lineages. I practice Judo now, but when I was a student in a Ribeiro affiliate BJJ school, they used a system that had white up to 4 degrees, then yellow, orange, and green with no degrees in between. I think this was their way of paying homage to Judo because the Ribeiro brothers are also longtime Judokas. One had to test for each belt based on a curriculum up to blue belt, then each degree was awarded as you said - based on progress and demonstration of knowledge, usually awarded a bit faster when a student was competing, because the professor could see the progression of skill in real time.

[@Larz1000000]

Shintaro, I don't think I've been doing BJJ/Japanese ju jitsu long enough to make a comment on changing the system in martial arts, but watching this made me think that there should be more checks and balances to quantity what each belts symbolise. It all seems very vague. To quote a friend that's a 4th Dan Japanese ju jitsu black belt... 'There's black belts and black belts'.

[@m3ducraft]

IN my country black belts are not given by the teacher but by the federation. Whe you are brown belt you need to participate in competitions and get a certain number of points (not in the same completion but in total as long as it takes). This prevents people that don't have the level to get a black belt, and rewards really good judokas. Then they need to do a Kata exam, a technique exam, and participate as a refereree in a couple of competitions. Then and only then the federation sends the black belt to your dojo and the teacher gives it to you. On the other hand, color belts are given by the teacher. I have seen some dojos that have highly graded students that are not good, but because they have been practicing a certain amount of time thy get a new one. Then the whole dojo stagnates in brown belt because they are not good as a whole. In my dojo our teacher only gives bets once a year (with some exceptions), and only gives them if the students deserve it. If you don't come regularly, or can't do simple technics after many months, then you deserve to stay. If you are really good he will give a new belt. And he only gives brown belts to people he deems black-belt-level without the exams or points. That way they can get the points in the next competitions.

[@darenwilkieson6676]

In the UK we basically have junior grades and senior grades that follow the same colouring system set against a syllabus...however...the juniors have three stripes per belt....seniors don't...our belt colours go white,red,yellow,orange,green,blue,brown....quite simple quite straight forward...

[@stassenchr]

Why use stripes when you have multiple belts already? BJJ partially uses stripes because you go straight to blue, but in judo you could just do white, yellow, orange, green, which roughly is same as BJJ stripes 1-4 on your white belt.

[@ThePimpedOutPlatypus]

I think this is a fantastic idea. I train at a Judo Club once a week, a BJJ gym once a week, and a Muay Thai gym a few times per month. Now that I have been training Judo and BJJ, standardizing the ranking system of the two makes sense, since they are different wings of the same bird 🐦‍⬛

[@mikekempf1456]

My judo school used stripes starting at yellow, then green then brown. Testing you had to show the techniques of the gokyo and eventually beyond. Testing was done every few months and was somewhat ceremonious. You weren’t just given the stripe or new belt and that was it. People came and saw. We still competed but it wasn’t a requirement. I liked it this way, it was clear as to what was expected of us to advance

[@mikekempf1456]

I forgot the most important thing, we never once had to pay. Not even for black or further dans

[@joshdandrea5157]

I went to high school in Japan and it seemed like lower belts were for little kids. I never saw anybody with any belt besides white or black. I don’t remember if the minimum training to take your shodan was a year or not, but the shodan exam was three opponents. This was more than 30 years ago mind you.

[@Yupppi]

I don't think we here have school differences for real here in Finland. Our national federation defines which techniques are required to demonstrate for every belt graduation (first some techniques from each tachi-waza, kesa gatame set, later list of techniques, more newaza, escapes and also with strangles also the dangers and safety of strangles, combinations, tachi-waza both sides, from movement, favourite technique in more free situation). White belt includes dojo behavior etc and blue belt onwards more and more kata. Also blue, brown and black belt require a specific camp like basics of judo, teaching, referee. And minimum time requirements for belt graduation (active time, if you have a break, that time is not counted, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10 months until black belt) and you can get closer to the minimum time by competing successfully (collecting competition points based on if your opponent is lower or higher skill and if you score waza-aris or ippons or lose), A to D competitor class from national team to amateur, and later on teaching and being active in judo community for its benefit. We don't have a purple belt but the rest actually do mean specific skills.

[@liamcage7208]

Many traditional styles have fewer belts. Hapkido used to teach in blocks of Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced then Black Belt ranks. The way I do it now in my club is I group white, yellow, orange as Beginner. Next Green, Blue, Purple as Intermediate. Advanced is Brown, Red (I hate the red belt), Red with middle black stripe. I only do a formal grading when a student moves from Beginner to Intermediate or Intermediate to Advanced. The other belts in between are like stripes and simply handed out when the student is ready.. I keep the belts and the hated Red & Red with black stripe to conform to our federation standards so if students move to a different school their rank is recognized.

[@capricornyearofthetiger]

What about changing the technical approach between competitor and non-competitor? A merit based system sounds more fairly based.

[@RicoMnc]

Had this conversation recently at our BJJ school. Many suggested there should be only 4 belts, white, blue, purple, black, eliminating the superfluous brown belt which is kinda' like a bride: in waiting before the wedding sealing the black belt deal or something like that... We even toyed with the idea of only 3 belts, white, blue, black. Our school lineage considers a blue belt to be an advanced beginner, equipped and trained to consistently better a relatively untrained opponent without a significant size/strength difference. A purple belt should be "dangerous", able to consistently handle someone who is trained even with size/strength advantage, someone a black belt has to take seriously when rolling, possibly bring his A game at times.

[@Saltygraygoat]

I train in Kyushin-Ryu we have belt testing every 9 months roughly. We run the gambit on belts white yellow orange green blue brown black. Our testing panel consist of 9-11 judges 2nd degree black to the head master. We have a stripe day / evaluation day 2 months roughly before. Kids to adults follow the same path.

[@Tr3vor_charl3s]

Liked this episode a lot and definitely can get behind the a more focused and pragmatic approach to the judo ranking systems, what I think is interesting is that in wrestling we don’t have that but it does add a bit of the grit “dog eat dog” mentality which I think makes it one of the tougher sports, wrestling also a great foundational base for other martial artist too, keep it up guys 😊

[@pichetkullavanijaya6908]

I find that Colored Belt ranking system is a way for some unscrupulous Senseis to make money because at each promotion there is a fee for the new rank, fee for the new belt, and fee for the certificate (nevermind if it is not a new belt, but another stripe on the belt). Money just flows in. Then there is selling of T-Shirts, gym bags, books, CDs, Seminars, and the list goes on and on and on... So, one day I decided to teach Traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsu to mostly Asian kids who get picked on by other kids in school. I taught them for free. I had 11 kids all together. Aside from a family of 4 White kids, and 1 Muslim kid from India, the rest were all Chinese kids who were born in China. Yes, they get picked on. No, I didn't charge them for a single penny. I taught them out of my apartment, and use the front lawn for break falls and throws because there is beautiful thick green grass, and safe... I'm a Traditional Japanese Jiu Jitsuka... So, the art was passed down without profiteering and I will continue to do the same for the next generation... As for promotions go, it's time + attendance + punctuality + skill demonstration

[@alexanderlahman9320]

Such a deep and chaotic subject, I haven’t found the answer either xD I’ve played with replacing yellow-green with blue since we’re also a jiujitsu school and most people get their bjj blue belt anyway. Also at tournaments a lot of people just wear a white or blue belt.

[@gladiumcaeli]

Edit: The issue with belt is that it means different things to different people, some people see it as an indicatioin of how good someone is at fighting while other see it as how knowledgeable someone is at the sports, think of helio gracie vs danaher Maybe change it to: Sun belt/patch (Beginners): Yellow, orange, red Moon belt/patch ( Intermidiates): Green, Blue, Purple Gradient belt/patch (experts): white, grey, black The yellow belt is the only one with stripes because people needs about 2 months before something becomes a habbit, so maybe give a stripe in 1-2 month 3-6. The idea is that every year the student has a belt to look forward to, instructors can come up with an outline / curriculum for each belt. You will know what is expected for each belt so you can work towards it, Black belt is an actual black belt in skills (8 years of training or more), you can have tournaments where there are 3 divisions (beginner, intermediate, expert). As an example to go from yellow to orange, show that you know how to fall properly, 1 escape from different position, 2 throws.

[@lucastakeo7707]

My jiujitsu school does stripes all the way, with kid belts up until around 15, stripes are given due to attendance/time until you're blue. There's a dedicated white belt class for adults, so it's easy for the teacher to make sure everyone is progressing in a steady pace. When you're blue, stripes are given by merit rather than attendance, but I notice that's when there's a big decline in attendance.

[@AdamT-88]

My school dose grading every 3 mouths and you grade when you feel ready to do so. You do the syllabus and demonstrate the moves and some light randori might be involved. Then for black you have to get your comp points. It's all done under The British Judo Association rules. White, Red, yellow, orange, green, blue, brown, black. I'm a yellow belt (5th Kyu) and I'm going for my Orange (4th Kyu) in Feb.

[@arbdistress5592]

My judo school from white to yellow is basic throw skills test, and then from yellow all the way to brown is competition based. Once per year it takes all yellow belts candidates sub-divided to 4 people competition group. Only the winner can promote. I have seen some yellow belt trained for 5 years, pretty experienced but never get promoted because somehow there is only 25% chance of promotion per year. Whereas some brown belt actually knows very limited skills but having strong body build and thus uchi-mata all the way up. Black belt on the other hand is Kata exam plus competition points, still pretty difficult if a person is not good at competition.

[@Feroxis666]

You should have a look at the BJA system. The Mon grading system for the kids is based on stripes with regular exames every 3 to 4 months based on expected syllabus knowledge.

[@gengotaku]

Hey Shintaro!! Cool video!! It reminded be of how bored I am wearing a white belt in judo after getting back to judo Japan after 32 years I stopped practicing it since I used to practice judo back in Brazil when I was a child and got till purple belt (after blue, yellow, orange and green).I tried to practice here with a purple belt, but people told me it's a kid´s belt and other thought I was a BJJ practitioner. I'm also struggling in aikido because adults only wear a white belt until they get to the black belt, but I BEGGED my shihan to give me a color belt because it's depressing to me to wear a white belt for years so he allowed me to use a green belt from the 5th to 4th kyu and a purple belt starting from the 3rd kyu up to the 2nd kyu. Unfortunately he passed away and when I got to 1kyu I thought I could get a brown belt but the new shihan said I should wait a little more to get the black belt and wear the HAKAMA, so I'm looking forward to my black belt test in September. As for judo, I tried to get the black belt in a tournament last May but finished in 3rd and couldn't do it so hopefully in my next tournament I can get the black belt if I finish in 1st or 2nd or get it by recommendation if I use the points from the last competition and get a recommendation.　I'm also learning hokuryu karate and will probably get a yellow belt when I get to the 6th kyu. 押忍

[@TC_Personal]

I feel Alliance BJJ does this well... they have a check-in system that keeps track of your classes, but the belt is not based on your classes. It just gives a unified system for instructors to review who they need to be watching for belt promotions.

[@mrarmaggedon31415926]

I've been thinking about this issue lately as well. What occurs to me is that belt systems have issues in the following places: 1) a dichotomy between kyu and dan. The way I see it, there are multiple clear stages in martial arts development: * pre-training (when you develop the basic physical attributes needed for the art, learn the basic techniques in isolation, stances, terminology, traditions, and find out whether this is for you or not) * student (when you're going through the curriculum, learning all the standard/official techniques and combinations - basically anything you can just memorise or drill) * graduate (i.e. black belt, when you've learned the curriculum and are focused now on synthesising and improving your performance, your awareness of the opponent, your transitions from technique to technique and position to position * master (the point at which you are the top of your game and have more to teach others than others have to teach you. You are actively developing the martial art and finding small but significant ways to improve not only yourself but the curriculum/sport/art as a whole Each of these should I feel be given its own name with a smaller number of degrees (maybe 5) at each level. 2) the lack of retirement. There's no real way to signify that someone is too old or injured to be effective any more. As a result there is a perception that martial artists just get more dangerous with time, but this is wrong, and I feel there should be a belt that can be worn by a practitioner who is no longer able to spar, compete, or in general win in a real fight but continues to train and develop themselves and can still demonstrate the rank they attained before they "retired" from actual fighting/competing. 3) the linearity of belts. I would say there are three main pursuits within a martial art after reaching proficiency: (a) improving oneself and one's performance (b) teaching others (c) developing the martial art and curriculum in general to adapt it to new knowledge and testing. Usually belt systems seem to focus on the first, sometimes indicating the second separately and sometimes just assuming that all of these pursuits go hand in hand. After black belt, I feel there should be more visual delineation between these foci. A practitioner who is a low-rank black belt may still be a high ranked teacher if they have an aptitude for the skill of teaching. Someone who is very skilled and developed at combat/sparring/competition may just be super good at doing what they were taught and may not be developing new techniques or new approaches while someone of a lower rank might bring a lot of innovation and should be recognised for that. Following Shintaro's comment on pins, I think a system akin to military ribbons which could be sewn or stuck to one end of a belt (the other end being for rank stripes) would be interesting. Especially in arts where you only wear a belt for a year or less, it would be easy to hand out ribbons for merit, winning competitions, or taking on additional duties within the school. At the more advanced belts ribbons could be used to signify more significant victories, records set, years spent teaching, positions earned (e.g. as an ambassador for the art, olympic medallist, grading panellist, or competition judge), or major contributions to the martial art itself.

[@MichaelMurray-nh2sb]

My bjj place had a social component as well. there was a sort of hey if you're going to purple/brown you're taking a de-facto leadership role, you're not a coach but 80% of the class is going to be white/blues who are looking up to you so we want to see you actively taking an interest in the improvement of the community, helping out newbies etc, more actively giving back. it was all entirely arbitrary though, our head had trained in Brazil in the 90s so the lineage was super short and they took it seriously holding people to a high standard for promotion for upper belts. competition wasn't really brought up much, people were doing it but I don't remember it ever being encouraged or promoted to students.

[@MichaelMurray-nh2sb]

it was a big place though probably 200 members, scan you barcode keychain in at the front desk, tell them what class you were there for. so maybe it was attendance behind the scenes.

[@rhinofro]

I love the idea of a "technical" black belt. Some people just aren't great competitors. I always think of coaches like Cus D'Amato that never even went pro with knowledge and strategy off the charts

[@ADAM_COLLECTS]

the issue with streams is that it creates a divide in rank. it will have people saying “that Ni dan is not the same as this Ni dan”, as one went via competition and fell short of the olympics, and the other went via time and never competed and was only ever in their own dojo.

[@matthewkinne7662]

My feeling is that if you are doing judo or jiujitsu for reward then it's an extrinsic motivator. If that's the individuals case, then they are doing it wrong. As my sensei always says "a belt is something to hold up your pants".

[@jonbeck6889]

Sensei, do you have a video about what an Ikkyu should be prepared to perform for your shodan test? Also if somebody contacted you and said "hey im a ikkyu can I come to your dojo and challenge your shodan test" would you let them? Asking for a friend who doesn't have any legitimate Judo in their area and would like to start a club.

[@SenselessUsername]

If you move around Europe, it gets really confusing. You start in Holland, White-Yellow-Orange-Green-Brown-Black? Fine. Except you go to the UK, and see all these Red belts (just after White). Or to Germany which has the half-belts (White-WhiteYellow-Yellow-YellowOrange...) for adults. Then a Purple belt appears (he's a beginner from Israel? Or a quite experienced Brazilian adult, or US junior?). Then, within one country, one club is really just for number of lessons you had --- or in another for competitive succes regardless of technical knowledge. I'd happily give belts to some people who understand but can't really do it (good knowledge but incapable; or a physical limitation; ...); bit like all the dan's from say 5th onwards, that are for contributions to the sport whether it's technical skill, knowledge, competition, or 'being an ambassador'.

[@jamesSmith-fl5wv]

I am 44 and just started judo. I dont want to have to compete for points to earn my black belt. Im in it for my kids and to learn self defense. Do we still have to do that?

[@PMAA2019]

I think that the political aspects of these organizations is keeping Judo from being like BJJ.

[@user-ie1ij9nr7e]

How does Judo work at the Kodokan in Japan? I thought everybody was either a white or a black belt? How did Kanō Jigorō do it?

[@terrellkluting5370]

I want to open a school and teach Judo and BJJ with same rank. Striping white belts with colored judo rank stripes. A white belt with an orange stripe for example. Then BJJ stripes blue-brown. Shared rank from blue onward to black.

[@eric.ingram]

I like the spontaneous promotion idea and the recognition of stripes. I think recognition stripes would make it easier for kids to see who is doing what well and provide them with a peer that they can seek to emulate and being able to take an adult who has 8-12 years of combat sport experience and just make them a green/purple belt should absolutely be allowed once the basics of technique execution are known. I think there's a significant difference between adults and kids coming into the sport and - from what I've seen - the best way to get new adults into the sport is to be able to clearly identify and differentiate between who is there for judo and who is there to compete. The issues I have personally encountered in the past typically include young adults who were competitive wrestlers in high school but do not wrestle on their college team. They then go into judo with this expectation that this Judo Fundamental class is at a competition level of intensity and I end up with a shiner or another soft-tissue injury. (Yes, yes, yes it should be on the instructor and senior students to temper the overall level of intensity and to ensure that there's a 'clear level of understanding before ne waza et cetera'... but we've all been in the position where we are supposed to be going at half-speed and in order to get the win/pin we spike to eighty-percent when we know our opponent is going to be stuck at their forty-percent.) Being able to introduce adults (and competition ready kids) to both styles of class - where they can go seventy/ninety-percent against a ready opponent - is a great way to let those students 'learn at their own pace.' Those students get to choose when they want to show up to comp (when they need that challenge) and fundamental classes (when they need refinement). I think the culture behind what a belt means is pretty wack though. I think if a student can safely execute each and every technique there is (right and left-handed) give them a black belt. If that means there will be a four-year-old walking around with a black belt so be it. When everyone looks the same students will seek to differentiate themselves through performance. The adults who are there for the aesthetic weren't going to stay for the long-term as it was. And honestly if that means there's a period of time where there is a glut of 11-14-year-olds who have black belts and never come back to the sport... when they grow up maybe they'll come back or when they have kids maybe their kids will pick up judo because it's what their parent did. I can't begin to count how many people mention what martial art they studied as a child or how their seven-year-old is a purple belt in karate or a black belt taekwondo. Being able to normalize judo as a (combat/Olympic/competitive/recreational) sport would go a long way in financing new club growth. And honestly, if this process of normalization allows someone to spend their life teaching judo (even if 90% of their club is under-14) than that's great and a huge when for the sport as a whole.

[@JohnKelly-ch5im]

There's a reason why the national organizations don't track the KYUs, because they are pretty insignificant. The whole goal is to make it far enough to "BEGIN" at a shodan. everything previous is just learning basics.

[@Ninja9JKD]

Curious how many techniques you typically have to know and show for each rank? While I do like a lot of flavors, the school I'm in wants about a dozen techniques for yellow to orange, is this normal? I tend to find quality should be prioritized over quantity.

[@Dynamic6000]

I believe USJF and USA Judo proposed a specific structure for 18+, but not all organizations are on board and many dojos still do their own thing. Establishing this clear rank system for adults what ever the progression may be is important and should be implemented, so like you said, there is a general understanding of what that belt means and general skill level. For people starting 18+ a 4 belt before black system just like BJJ. White Green Blue Brown Black. ⚪️🟢🔵🟤⚫️ I personally like this a lot as yellow seems like a childish color for an adult to wear anyway. ⚪️🟢White and green are the beginner & novice belts. White having a minimum of a year to year 1/2. Green is a fairly consistent color in Judo schools so making it the official graduation from absolute beginner belt is good. The same importance or prestige of the BJJ blue belt. It may not have the exact same level of skill but it means you have knowledge and understanding and are more then a beginner but now an actual novice. 🔵🟤Blue and Brown are the intermediates and upper intermediates. ⚫️black/ Shodan being what it currently represents a high operating intermediate to advanced player. This doesn’t mean judo needs to follow the same 10 year plus timeline of BJJ but this can be a good general timeline with 5-7 years to shodan for the average person with exceptions for very athletic or high level competitors. Adults don’t necessarily need stripes but it could be good for teachers as a visual reminder of time in grade. However I believe the priority should be to to have the powers that be agree and implement that consistent belt progression with the general agreed upon timeline so there is a understanding for the community but maybe more importantly for those who may be researching or interested in understanding what it takes/ means.

[@sjelerick]

The dual judo/ bjj belt makes me think of a modern Japanese jiujitsu organization/ federation. Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t traditional jiujitsu fairly evenly focused on throws and ground game? Obviously had striking as well though. Could be an interesting idea

[@jeffdabarbarian9816]

I just received my yellow belt in Judo yesterday. I got up to four stripes on the white belt. I’ve been doing it for six months. Been attending GUMA dojo in Clifton, NJ. Not a lot of classes . Just every Wednesday night since late December. Trying to do Sundays here and there. That’s all the judo they have. I do two jits classes a week. I have really tight hips.. ugh any advice to loosen them up?

[@jtom416]

Little active stretching before class, a little static stretching after class. Has done wonders for me

[@whatoustudio]

In france its pretty clear path, they usually wont give you a belt after at least a year of practice, but usually as an adult they will give you at least green or blue, lower are seen as belt for kids For black belt you have to meet several requirement, you have to know certain stuff about rukes and have a referee class of so, you have to score a certain amount of win in competion I believe, be able to perform some kata, and other natural stuff like consistancy and such. As all judo clubs abide by the national federation, a coach cannot give you a black belt on his own will I think. I think its possible in BJJ though bc the sport is still new here and it will vary depending on the club

[@cbroo69]

It took me 6 years of Judo to barley get my blue belt even with throwing everybody in the club including the coaches and brown belts every day. Winning all 5 competitions that I went too. Then I moved states and start Jujitsu as a white belt with 6 years Judo experience and even 7 months into training 6 days a week and is able to again submit the coaches and everyone in the gym I'm a 2 stripe white belt who gets constant complaints from other white belts. All the coaches ask me is "when are you going to compete for us" And I could never be more insulted that they just use me as a puppet to try and bring them medals is just ridiculous. You tell me Shintaro what I'm supposed to do when changing from one gym to another and im treated worse because I have prior experience. If someone showed up at your gym and smoked everyone would you grade them faster? Because as far as I can tell im being gatekept because of my Judo experience and it makes me so mad to see so many instructors talk about how easy it is to achieve even the middle belts when I can handle anyone and im still stuck at the bottom.

[@m5a1stuart83]

Without the medal? In my club, you wont get grading belt.

[@cbroo69]

@@m5a1stuart83 So just stay white belt and be choking black belts because I don't want to give IBJJF more money? How stupid is that the belt represents your knowledge and capabilities. Iv seen many people go competitions and do 10x worse than they do at training

[@SangoDoomslayer]

does the white-yellow belt i made as a 12 year old even mean anything? Should i wear it if i were to pick up Judo again?

[@Haolekine888]

There's no belt system. It's Rokyu, Gokyu, yonkyu, sankyu, Nikyu, Iikyu, shodan. Having other marks between these ranks is fine but these are the ranks. Give whatever color and however many stripes you want but make sure the student knows they're ranks is Gokyu or whatever it might be. If the student travels internationally they need to be able to tell the club they're visiting that they're a Gokyu so the instructor knows what to expect and can instruct them what to wear in that country.

[@K.R_Mony]

Jigoro Kano the funder of Judo and belt system. He never had the idea for different belt colours. There were only White for beginners and Black for who train for long. Strips and colour belts were later created for business purpose

[@Dev-kv6go]

My Dojo is a traditional school so there is white brown black. White is you're beginner brown is you know are competent and can execute any of the basic throws, and have some degree of Of mastery in 1 or 2 throws. Or black out there's a skill requirement, some degree of some degree of mastery in all basic throws, There is a basic level of Kata you have to know. There's usually some sort of tournament winning rchoirment or proof of continuous match experience. And lastly you have to have the approval of both the head sensai and all other sensai's active at the dojo

[@zack8105]

COME UP WITH A DUAL BELT SYSTEM. LETS GO!

[@Ps2MexFan]

What do you think of people judokas for winning tournaments but they are good only at 7 techniques and cannot teach the whole curricula (64)?

[@TC_Personal]

I would offer the "traditional" path and the "sport" path, honestly. I would love to go to a place where there's sport classes with belt structures and such, but also a class where everyone wears white belts except the black belts that teaches Atemi-Waza and such.

[@kusotare9559]

I'm a kyu/dan kinda guy, so let me see if I can reframe your ideas in a way that makes sense to my tired old brain. If I understand you correctly, you want the white-yellow-green progression to be fairly easy to achieve, faster if the student acquires the skills quickly, but if not, time-in-grade based, so a green belt may not necessarily be able to demonstrate much judo skill at all but he's been at it for X amount of months so it's basically a participation award. From there, blue-purple-brown would essentially be sankyu-nikyu-ikkyu, and all would be merit based, with only a minimal TIG requirement (which even then could be waived batsugun-style). If you add in kyu grades to account for stripes in the W-Y-G phase, you're breaking it down to what, junikyu (depending on how many stripes per) for absolute beginners? I'm not sure you really answered Peter's question, though, about what problem you're trying to solve. Is it consistency across dojos by belt color? Is it to get students hooked by making the WYG (with stripes) easy to attain? I agree that belts should "mean something", but I'm not sure your suggestion addresses that. IMO, anything below sankyu has always been kind of muddled and confused anyway, and sankyu and up tended to sort itself out with the cream rising to the top. Well, maybe not the top, but just below the top.

[@tjl4688]

My BJJ school does stripes every 100 classes (20 for white belts).

[@okey586]

Should there any allowance if a bjj guy comes to judo, and judo black belt goes to bjj?

[@Harimau_meow]

Irish System is nationalised but the Irish judo association so every Judo club (IJA registered and there for IJF certified) use the standard grading system White-yelow-orange-green-blue-brown-black/2/3/4/5-redwhite, we have no purple. All the kyu grades have a minimum of 3 months between gradings. 1st dan is 6m, 2nd is 12m, 3rd24m, 4th 36m, 5th 48m. 6th to 3rd kyu are all technicall gradings, from 2nd Kyu onward you can choose to follow the technical path or competitive grading path. 2nd Kyu and up can only be achieved in national gradings, a club can only grant 6th to 3rd Kyu belts.

[@Harimau_meow]

Junior grades are mon grades and have the half belt step, It's very different from when I was a Junior 23 years ago when we had 3 gradings between colours.

[@WestonSimonis]

My question is I don't hold any rank in Judo but I have a Brown Belt In Kodenkan Danzan Ryu Jujitsu Testing for my Purple Belt in January In BJJ and I have a 3rd Dan in Kajukenbo. I wanted to join USA Judo to Compete but feel like a sand bagger going in as a white belt. I also have a lot of JJJ, BJJ and MMA experiences. But last there is no Judo with in 2 hours from me and I have the only dojo that teaches anything closes to Judo. I Just don't think it would be fair to go in to a Judo Comp as a belt white and I have 29 years of martial arts and over 13 of it was in the arts of Jujitsu and BJJ. If I was a person coming to you to train Judo to compete would you make me compete at White?

[@petertoatley5465]

‘When you Harai is gone.’ 👍🏿✊🏿

[@ewigeredits]

interesting... never thought about that

[@lewispeart2344]

The OG Japanese system is king. In Aus and NZ it works like this... The club coach can grade up to blue belt, usually stripes for all belts (prefer your idea). Then, for brown belt, you require 50 points accumulated at competition, have to show the first 3 sets of nage-no-kata, and must be graded by a JNZ rep (who is not your coach). For black, the full kata + 100 points in competition (earned via Ippon victories against brown / black belts, each higher rank earns more points). IDK, system to me feels a bit empty,

[@tomsheppard378]

Seems there are way too many in judo. Could there just be yellow, blue, brown, black, then red white?

[@snakedoc6230]

Currently teaching Wing Chun Kung fu which a lot of people hate, but i love. But still same discussion applies. Never awarded any belts(sash) or whatever. But im thinking awards are great for relevance in a school even just based on time, but skill levels should and are usually the guys and girls that stick around and compete and stuff like that. So now like us is there this supreme student that we are now calling master and if so would his sash be of more of a golden color vs my yellowish one for sifu or whatever? Anyways got off track as far as your discussion i more importantly wanted to ask when and why did these short term belts come along ? Were they there the whole time ect? And then reverse engineer the complex system so to speak so deconstruct so you can then truly see which ones are most important. ( probably what you did) but then maybe have to implement yet another standard but of just hogher ranks and let all others still do how they do. Great topic though. Love your stuff!

[@jochoa23]

I agree. I’m not promoting bjj students unless they come to judo! Dual belts! Bjj1st degree Nidan Judo

[@nicocontreras5366]

We have yellow , orange and green as novices here so the gap can be too big in competition but I still like the idea of the whole belt and no stripes like in BJJ. At the end, nobody who´s honest and not a genius will put some years to the black belt.

[@TheQwaggs]

That’s odd. My first school I went to (adults) there was only white, brown and black. The one up the street from me does white, green, brown and black.

[@mdhp1610]

Great ideas!

[@fontanetshomedojo677]

The adult judo curriculum has to be a building block on basic fundamentals and you have to build on all possibilities from those waza. That is what bjj does . They what if the scenario and from 1 Technique u have endless possibilities. Through these u build your green belt , brown and black curriculum. You can still use the kodokan as a template but expand on it . For example 1,2,3 level Green belt or novice, intermediate, advanced and with this being said you have in soild concrete what a true Green belt should look like. Bjj does this very well. Judo also has Combatives form goshin ryu jujutsu . Like bjj they created gracie Combatives program. Maybe some how judo school can covert the Combatives goshin ryu and develop a program for adults white through green. I started judo with usja and love it. Save judo ❤

[@robertical]

Interesting. But hard to quantify when a wrestler or bjj brown moves to judo. Can be yellow and catching everyone off guard. Same happens when a judo guy goes to a bjj gym as a white and the days doing stand up training, you see everyone flying regardless of the bjj belt.

[@olivertriebel5274]

The German belt curriculum is close to your idea. Belts from white-yellow to orange-green can are awarded. Belts above are more & more thoroughly tested. Higher dan ranks from 6. dan & above are awarded for very high contributions to judo.

[@Mutex50]

Why not just use elo rating for competition?

[@fromsamuraitoscience7184]

If it's judo and a country has a governing body registered under IJF there is usually a prescribed national syllabus and system which coaches are supposed to follow...bjj totally different story, I've been at 4 clubs over the years, each different in what they see as "important" to learn and grade. Can be a bit frustrating if you relocate to a new town as I've had to do a couple of times

[@Fallout-pv5lr]

I don't think the belt system is the problem, i think its how people get the belts that's the issue which can vary greatly between schools. For example in the UK we have the BJA, an association which has an individual curriculum for each belt. It's then up to the sensei (i think) who decides when you get your gradings, usually every 6 months. Once you get to brown you then have to get points through competition to qualify for your black belt. I think there are other ways of getting your black belt but this is the most common way.

[@herbertwurm9368]

How about a white belt and a black belt. you simply grade and add a stripe for each kyu. Ten stripes, then you test for black.

[@joeoconnell3544]

BJJ much bigger in UK than Judo as well. State of British Judo is shocking, in many respects.

[@christopherspohn8071]

I agree, rank in truth means nothing. It does not cross school relate. Which means a person trained in bjj having black belt does not mean much. It's why bushidokan kept test fees low. Compared to all other martial arts i heard of tai kwon do charges like 300 or 1000 dollars for there black belt test. In bushidokan when i went in the 80s for black belt it was 30 dollars for black belt test and if you fail you got the money back.

[@spudboy1014]

In bja you dont have to fight for your belts anymore which i think isn't ideal i think you should fight for every belt in order to prove you deserve it and then show knowledge on the technical side

[@frederickmorton275]

To me personally belts and stripe are small psychogical rewards to keep practitioners entertained and aware of progress to keep training and payig for monthly sub. Someone that doing judo or bjj or any other sport really resonates with do not need these rewards as practice itself - especially randori/rollin/sparring is enjoyable on its own accord. Belts mean f... all you either love it or you dont but it seems like the whole idea behind working out the belt system is how to keep practitioners that dont love it enterteined enough to stick to judo and pay membership- business approach entirely. To me judo is thr most entertaining sport to engage in and and stripes and belts bring f... all to the game

[@Flomdcho]

They keep my judogi in place. So yeah id say they perform there role as required

[@BuddhismByKev]

I’ve been doing bjj now for a few months and it’s obvious to me that the reason bjj is popular is because it’s easier. I’m not saying it’s easy to be good. Judo is just mentally taxing. It’s like running a quarter mile sprint. More fun though