Return of the Obra Dinn Review

I strongly recommend avoiding this video if you haven't played Obra Dinn yet. Minor spoilers for Papers Please too.
Patreon: / matthewmatosis

[@redzeppelin6]

Good job keeping Phoenix Wright in the same color pallet as the whole video. Very good to avoid eye burning at night.

[@Davies46]

The worst part of Obra Dinn is that there isnt more of it.

[@Davies46]

@WormYourHonor64 absolutely correct, however i couldn't help but feel melancholic after it was all over. I dont think ive ever had a more rewarding feeling than when the sound que for three correct answers plays.

[@TheSergio1021]

Yes yes... We all developed stockholm syndrome for the Obra Dinn...

[@wobblysauce]

I have gotten a number of people to play it... that is my part. Then watch them hack at it there way... and seeing other details I missed on my first run.

[@jpmezart]

Knock-offs need to come out, this game has to be the start of a genre

[@dimitrypilin3098]

If you made a 40 minute retrospective on "rock-paper-scissors" I would watch it.

[@Krelos1114]

sorry, i have to stop watching this video. this game already seems incredibly cool and i don't want to spoil it for myself. i'll come back once i complete it.

[@0SC2]

Did you like the game?

[@typo691]

@@0SC2 Not OP but I decided to play after seeing the premise in this video. I think it's one of my favourite games ever due to the detective itch it scratches that no other game has ever done.

[@darfjono]

pope is an amazing dev. who else would think of a ghost ship murder mystery and then present it in such a bizzarely appealing way? this is what all indie games should aspire to be.

[@NiGHTcapD]

Obra Dinn could have been *boss* on the Wii U; the Gamepad could have worked well for the journal.

[@izan6366]

holy shit

[@Gromek999]

Great youtuber talks about a great game *everyone liked that*

[@Nightflyermike]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/gnSmqaGrgdGGZ5o

[@JPTQJR]

G I A N T E N E M Y C R A B S

[@Twisttheawesome]

I don't actually think there's a way to design a game like this wherein all reasonable doubt can be removed for each crew member - either the lengths one would have to go to to accomplish such a thing dwarf a little game like Obra Dinn;s budget or (more likely) that would result in a less fun game. Yeah, there's a chance one guy would have taken another's sword. However, consider we only get snippet's of these characters lives along with the fact that identifying someone through their shoes or their sword is a clever and fun moment that isn't worth doing away with to make an unnessecary point about certainty. I love your videos as always Matt

[@matilyn_rf]

A version of the opposite is really cool in a game (VN) like Umineko where the gimmick is for the detective to cast any reasonable doubt you possibly can to show the one explanation cannot be true by having any alibi at all.

[@empty5013]

@@matilyn_rf what

[@andywilson5677]

You could make it so that the player has enough information to know for certain who each crew member is. If one of the topmen was sleeping in another bunk then you would need some other piece of info from another scene to determine that fact and use both pieces of evidence combined to figure out who they all are. I was a little sad there wasn't a few red herrings in Obra Dinn like a person of one nationality having the accent of another because they had lived abroad for a long period. I felt it would have kept the player on their toes and made it more rewarding when you found the piece of info that confirmed their identity.

[@JanneSala]

@@matilyn_rf Are you talking about Episode 5 of Umineko?

[@Ryham93]

I - like many of you - probably watch a lot of long form video game analysis content on KZbin. But every single video from Matt is so thorough and well considered that I actually come out with new perspective on not just any single game, but on video games as an artistic medium every single time. Great work again Matt.

[@saedt]

RPS 100%, he really expands your thinking

[@dominokos]

I recommend Errant Signal. Great content.

[@INtelshow]

I wish I knew of more long form analysis stuff. I know all the big ones, errant, mandalore, sseth, btongue, grim, joseph. Any others I should check out?

[@wuwei473]

soundlust mauler

[@wuwei473]

soundlust and Noah gervais

[@ilesalmo7724]

At the Persian inductive reasoning. I first thought that the turban-guy was a Sikh who live in India (there were many Indian sailors in the roster). Sikhs carry a knife or a sword with them at all times as a part of their religion, so only after I had identified all of the Indians I was confident to identify the Persian.

[@jiakunliu473]

Omg i've been waiting for a good review/ critique/ commentary of this game for so long. I want to say that most of the game CAN be solved with DEDUCTION, but with the additional premise that you have to treat it as a game and assume the game always "plays fair". Example: premises: there is always a way to tell who's who in the game. The only clue abiut the Chinese topmen is there shoes. Therefore they can be discerned by there shoes. This of course requires us to always see it as a game but with this art style, the watch and the sea monsters, we are constantly reminded of the contrived nature of this story Also your use of the game art is pure brilliance

[@Smilephile]

@No same i never noticed the shoes myself.

[@MonokhromatiQ]

Lucas Pope turned me into a foot fetishist during the Cold Chapter and I don't know what to feel about that

[@MultiMetar]

I'll be honest, I didn't use any clever tricks to identify the Chinese. I just had to look at their faces. Same thing with the Indians and the Russians really. Lucas Pope has some superb ethnic drawing skills, and it shows.

[@jiakunliu473]

@@MultiMetarI'm Chinese and I couldn't recognize any face at all. Probably just because I'm too face blind lol

[@diegokevin3824]

Actually you could guess about half of the chinese topmen just by time of death alone, as the timeline progresses they keep dying and their cots get removed, so you know who are the last ones alive because only their cots remain on board there are always at least 2 methods to deduce (or induce) someones identity

[@gwathdringadams4470]

As long as we're being pedantic, it's not really either inductive or deductive. Even if we stick to a one-word simplistic description, abduction is probably the way to go. We're not really working with general principles and broader conclusions--we're using specific details and limited information to make informed guesses about other similarly specific conclusions. But really none of these words address why it does or doesn't work very well.

[@liquidgeorge]

I was about to comment that it leans more on abductive reasoning.

[@nnnnmhughuuhhjiijj9457]

I think this game, deserves a analysis, scene by scene.

[@Alberich_Prince_of_Dwarves]

"Giant enemy crabs" RIIIIIIIIDGE RACER!

[@Tumbolisu]

This game is special to me in a very unique way. It is the first time I found a game that I could play together with my mother. Any other games I have tried before always had the issue that either she would have to control a character in 3D space (which she doesn't like at all. an example being portal 2) or it would be a game where no discussion between us was needed (a game where the answere is obvious as soon as you see it. think where is waldo or The Witness) or simply not practical (too much dialog or text to possibly have the time to talk). Return of the Obra Dinn allowed me to take control of the character while my mother was simply watching, and allowed enough interpretation in what was going on that a discussion between us was necessary. The ability to repeat a death to listen to the dialog again, as well as being able to simply read it, might have been one of the most important aspects. In the end we weren't fully satisfied with the story of the game, as some things were never quite clear. The actual ending wasn't as good as we hoped either. Still, it was a unique experience that no other game was able to deliver me so far.

[@ddd-op5wy]

Okay?

[@Tumbolisu]

@@ddd-op5wy Glad to hear that you are okay with my experience of the game.

[@CheddahSlingah]

You and your mother might enjoy playing the MYST series! Very simple controls, with a heavy emphasis on environmental storytelling. The first game is currently being remastered for next gen hardware. Also, L.A. Noire might be fun, as a mystery game.

[@l3loodyfingers]

@@CheddahSlingah isn't myst really old?

[@CheddahSlingah]

@@l3loodyfingers Just because it's old doesn't mean it isn't still good, especially with a fresh coat of paint.

[@empty5013]

Wonderful review, I disagree about the induction vs deduction, I think they're going more for making you feel clever than making you feel like you've truly solved it. Some other people have explained the point better than I have. My biggest complaint is the story's climax kind of happens 2/3 in, and then its just kinda busy work after that point. Additionally, the monkey trick is awesome and super clever, but there's no real revelations behind the monkey so you feel like "yeah thats cool but I already knew this", the supernatural arc of the story is pretty well explained by that point already. Which is a real shame, because the narrative itself is wonderful. I agree it's not perfect, but it's a flagship for what is almost an entirely new genre, and it's absolutely fantastic on top of that. A flawed masterpiece can still be a 10/10.

[@SaadTheGlad]

Exactly I truly think this can be the birth of a genre of murder mystery games, if I could I would make one myself

[@headphonic8]

Honestly, I preferred how Obra Dinn required uncertainty in order to figure out the crewmates. It almost made me feel smarter being able to put outside knowledge of the characters' cultures to use rather than have everything spoonfed to me like I was a child in a vacuum. My only gripe was with how easy it was to bruteforce guess which character was which by abusing the system. I didn't bother finding out the shoe clue for the Chinese topmen, I just input their names systematically til I got it right. The ending was just a complete letdown, though. The shells were interesting, but this game was more interesting because of its complex human stories rather than just the spooky monsters. The monsters weren't what drove the plot, the characters' group reactions to them was. I don't really know why they built up the ending for such a weak pay-off; it's not like I was on the edge of my seat about why the kraken left. I was hoping to see something really horrific in the lazarette, something that cause madness and mutiny in the crew, or maybe a twist about the surgeon stealing the shell, but instead I got a boring and straightforward answer to a question I wasn't particularly concerned about.

[@wonderguardstalker]

You literally just asked for a different version of the same thing. I agree the ending is lacking, mostly because of the order it’s presented in, but yer solution is just as lacking

[@diegokevin3824]

So i guess none of you saw that the light of the shell that the mermaid had on the horizon in the "present" when the investigator was exploring the ship, that detail gives you the "ohhhh" moment at the ending because you realize that the ship was brought back by the mermaids and you had seen one in the distance (thus aldo making the story come full circle)

[@igloo.550]

@@diegokevin3824 Well I don't know how common this is, but I figured that light was a shell long before the ending simply by observing the shell in other scenes. Personally I suspected the captain did a blood sacrifice or something in the lazarett, hence the mutiny and build up to the ending.

[@headphonic8]

@@wonderguardstalker nope, those are completely different things. my suggestions revolve around the characters. the actual ending revolves around the monsters. i literally explained it

[@dickdick130]

the lovecraftian artifact made everyone crazy cliche is so boring. glad you didnt write this shit ii can at least respect the game’s cliches as they are: hurr durr humans are the real monsters. but ooo the magic thingy did it? seriously - what a lazy copout.

[@Ganondward]

Well worth my money despite not having replay value.

[@bmardiney]

Just finished playing this game. I’m a little disappointed in this review because it veers hard into subjectivity. He basically says “deduction is better than induction because deduction is more certain”. More certain, yes. But does more certain equal better? More fun? I actually found the fuzziness of the induction to be more interesting and immersive. So whereas he knocks the game for it, I think it actually elevated Obra Dinn. It’s a shame he went subjective with this one because all his other reviews are so nicely objective.

[@bmardiney]

gibbdude I’d like to introduce you to a man named Mauler.

[@melephs_cap]

Years later, but...leans into subjectivity? Any statement that is not falsifiable is subjective. All reviews are at their core subjective.

[@bmardiney]

@@melephs_cap Whether you like or dislike something is subjective. Whether something is made well is objective.

[@melephs_cap]

​@@bmardiney Not at all. "Made well" relies on a certain definition of "well," which is subjective. It usually depends on your interpretation of what the piece of media was trying to do, and your opinion on whether it achieved that. Moreover, because humans are not all-knowing, our analyses are by nature always incomplete. What we choose to include, exclude, focus on, and diminish is not an objective process, but a subjective one.

[@bmardiney]

@@melephs_cap Well, it would take a long time to point out all the ways in which that's wrong, but needless to say, I disagree. It's like when people say "beauty is subjective" and yet can all agree on who is beautiful and who is ugly. So clearly it's not that subjective. Anyway, have a good one.

[@gabersons]

I missed that sweet silky voice

[@Cathonis]

If Mario never ages and can revive after death, is he still mortal?

[@edgarallanpwned6666]

The real question is... dies mario revive after death, or does a temporal time shift cause him to re-live his previous moments... just food for thought

[@edgarallanpwned6666]

Does*

[@Cathonis]

@@edgarallanpwned6666 A worthy explanation, another possibility that I like to think about is that Mario is just an army of clones, a bit like how his lives are presented in the 100-man Mario challenge in Mario Maker. Which then just begs the question if extending your life through clones counts as immortality or if the clones count as his children.

[@edgarallanpwned6666]

@@Cathonis If thats the case the real question ought to be, "Is each clone part of one collective concience or is Mario maker where failed experiments get 'repurposed' after they are killed in the plethora of other Mario games.

[@Cathonis]

@@edgarallanpwned6666 The collective conscience answer is the child-friendly answer Nintendo *wants* us to believe. For that reason alone I am much more inclined to go down the rabbit hole which you suggested, that Mario Maker is where failed clones of not just Mario himself, but all Mario characters all end up. The players are scientists toying with the hapless clones and their world as we wish.

[@ThePlatypusManifest]

I have been waiting for this. Thank you! Your videos are just top tier.

[@Cleve_Crudgington]

Rewatching this video and the line "It's a petty complaint, but less petty than it first appears." stands out as one of the most Matthewmatosis lines ever.

[@AydarBMSTU]

Better review than joseph's one

[@MrTwrule]

As a teacher of university 'Critical Thinking' courses, I wish my students were as enthusiastic about the deductive/inductive syllogism distinction as Matthew seems to be here. Maybe I should show them this video for inspiration?

[@islandboy9381]

the best way to let students engage with the subject is practical examples so yes it can inspire :)

[@MrTwrule]

​@gibbdude Haha I had no idea until you replied to my comment. I'm flattered!

[@DarthFennec]

The induction thing is what really threw me off while I was playing this one. I could never be certain that my guess was correct because there was never quite enough information to know, just enough to make a likely guess. I kept hitting this wall, then wondering to what extent I could trust the game to stay in this realm of likelihood as opposed to wandering off into any of the possible edge cases. Eventually this question became too much. I didn't stop playing the game, I did beat it on my own, but I ended up deciding to relax my self-imposed rule of making no random guesses, because as far as I was concerned, what the game ended up asking me to do was semi-random guesswork, so if I had stuck to that rule I wouldn't have been able to play at all.

[@TalathRhunen]

I managed to get a second playthrough out of the game by really limiting myself to only entering information I could really justify. I feel that restriction would have made the first playthrough a bit too tedious, but made the second one still interesting.

[@lolavasava3794]

Well, while I hate to say it, I find the point Matt is trying to make in this video kind of inane and stupid. From what I understand he's saying the game is flawed or misguided because it's trying to be a good detective game but it relies on "inductive reasoning" that is no clear cut. His example with the Persian is a good example, he points out that because there is plausible deniability in this character being the Persian, saying it is the Persian is not as satisfying. I HEARTILY disagree with this. Found the mystery solving in Obra Din stronger than other games like it due to this natural, realistic take on problem-solving. Ironically, Matt already says what I'm about to say, he acknowledges that real life investigations are FULL of this kind of inductive reasoning. He says it fails at a detective game because it's...more like real-world detective work? What? That's totally bogus. I noticed that a lot of the conclusions you came to during this game weren't "Clear cut" and I enjoyed that I think that's what the creator was going for, Matt saying it was "misguided" is tragically wrong, he just didn't get it. It's okay to prefer games and stories where every piece of evidence is rock solid and there's no room debate once the case is solved, but there is room for games that leave you guessing. Matt is usually the one who defends games making unconventional choices, and hearing him call this choice a flaw for no good reason...is disappointing. I would also like to point that while you are using inductive reasoning in this game, it is very solid and nowhere close to guesswork. There are many ways to figure out who is who and none of them is a stretch or implausible.

[@jiakunliu473]

You're right that Matt shoots himself in the foot when talking about real detective work, but his argument about inductive versus deductive holds up. Deductive is always solid while inductive work always contains guesswork. He is stating that he prefers deductive work rather than inductive, which I can understand even if I don't agree with his preference I fully support him bringing it to the public light

[@wandervalk]

Excellent review! But I don't agree on a critical point: real detective/judicial work is carried through the use of human mind. Even juridical law (and philosophy) states that facts can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, not for certain. So I feel induction reasoning is more intellectual honest choice as a framework for game design, other than more appealing for my personal taste. Yeah I REALLY liked Obra Dinn. (Source: I have a degree in criminology with a thesis in psychology of reasoning)

[@qqii]

I wonder if it was a creative/technical choice. If the game was completely deductive it would boil down to sudoku - which places a lot more restrictions on how events interact with each other. Given that needs to be combined with a coherant world and space I wonder if this the choice was deliberate.

[@TheRitva26]

when is your projared roast video and game of thrones season 8 rant coming

[@islandboy9381]

don't

[@bellatorpoeta]

Love this video but I’d like to point out that the first syllogism is actually a non distributio medii or undistributed middle fallacy. To explain, it’s like saying: Cats are animals. Some bats are animals. Thus, cats are some bats. The second subject needs to be the first subject in the second line to be logically correct. For instance, cats are felines. Felines are animals. So cats are animals.

[@benny26787]

Please do MGS5 Matt. It pains me that you're one short in your reviews.

[@randyrandalman8234]

Konami never finished the game so why should he finish the review? Jokes aside it would be great to hear Matt's thoughts on the game

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

Peraonally I am sick of "detective" games that require you to achieve a perfect solution via the only line of logic the game has peepared for you.

[@0SC2]

This game explicitly *doesn’t* do that, though.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

@@0SC2 Aye. This is why I brought it up. Joaeph himsdlf contrasts this one as counterexample.

[@wandervalk]

Excellent review! But I don't agree on a critical point: real detective/judicial work is carried through the use of human mind. Even juridical law (and philosophy) states that facts can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, not for certain. So I feel induction reasoning is more intellectual honest choice as a framework for game design, other than more appealing for my personal taste. Yeah I REALLY liked Obra Dinn. (Source: I have a degree in criminology with a thesis in psychology of reasoning)

[@cannonfodder4000]

Pretty cool to hear your perspective on it!

[@APesquera]

I usually don't comment before watching the video, but this was my favorite game from its year and I'm really looking forward to the review. Cheers!

[@oliilo1]

Damn. Your closing words were so well written! Love your videoes.

[@jmarra07]

It's kind of your job and all, but you're overthinking whether the game is good or not based on evidence available. There may be reasons in your head to doubt, but there's way more evidence that the thought is true, so you not trusting yourself doesn't mean that the game was poorly designed, it just means you're overthinking it.

[@wonderguardstalker]

The point is why someone might overthink it

[@bitterbatterdog]

I really enjoyed the game until I hit the end of the road and realized I only had about 70% of the crew covered. I think this review perfectly depicts most points. I'm not ashamed to say there was some things I had to look up (like the tags) and seeing the reasoning behind them soured the taste, let alone trying to search through all of these scenes again to find the ones I was looking for. The only other issue that wasn't brought up was how people were killed. There is a large list of potential ways to die and not only does this spoil some of the mystery but there are instances where it can feel exceptionally cruel when you are incorrect on a technicality, which you can't verify.

[@kevingriffith6011]

About the "potential ways to die" list, I personally found it to spark interest in continuing to see the story through to the end. There are *so* many red herrings in the possible death list that you can't take any of them as true spoilers. "Dies of old age" is on the list, as is "Killed by hostile natives", to name a few. The technicality part I can completely get though, as with the poor man that gets shot with a cannon that is wrapped in the beast's tentacle.

[@saedt]

Your vids make me feel so smart, I learn so much.

[@nalvious]

7:15 I like how he couldn't contain the laughter

[@wonderguardstalker]

I like that he kept it in

[@eudaemon4931]

Possibly my favorite part of the video.

[@andrewscarpati9665]

I fucking loved this game. Glad to see it get publicity.

[@Outplayedqt]

Andrew Scarpati I think I’m just too dumb for it. It’s the one game I’ve ever refunded on Steam. I wish I enjoyed it as everyone else seems to have universally given it too praise, but alas it’s not marketed to me. But I look forward to watching this entire video and at least somewhat capture the “magic” of this title.

[@viyhexe131]

No disrespect to Matthew, but I think being named Zero Punctuation's Game of the Year is already the most publicity it's going to get.

[@ChaseFace]

@@Outplayedqt I feel that, I love Matt's videos but I'm actually incredibly dense when it comes to puzzle games, which seems to be his forte, so I enjoy living vicariously through his content.

[@Outplayedqt]

ChaseFace Haha dude as soon as I posted my comment, I wanted to edit it and add the phrase - living vicariously - because it’s the perfect description for folks like us who view these reviews. By the way Chase, your videos singlehandedly convinced me to buy and sink dozens of hours into The Evil Within 2, AND after enjoying it so much, I played through TEW1 to see if I agreed with your comparison. Looking forward to any new uploads :)

[@Vther]

I fail to see how replacing inductive reasoning by deductive reasoning would fix the problem you mention (which is, if I understand correctly, that it's hard to feel fully immersed and satisfied with an experience based on inductive reasoning when we know it is the product of a human author and not the product of real life circumstances). Indeed, my counter argument is that we already have countless fully deductive games: Puzzle games picross and sudoku are the purest form of deductive reasoning games (granted, you could also include some puzzle platformers) and yet, they miserably fail to summon the feeling of uncertainty and relief that Obra Dinn creates. I do agree that the premise of developing a purely inductive ruleset to progress in a game might have its limits, buts Obra Dinn clearly goes beyond what has been done before in both video games and other mediums. I would argue, the closest medium to reach Obra Dinn's level are real-life escape rooms, which manipulate the players by creating a high pressure environment which helps keeping the player suspending their disbelief. But what Obra Dinn does infintely better is scale: An escape room is only 1h tops and is restricted to a very small area, the amount of problems to solve has to be scaled accordingly and most of them fall into a very simple deductive formula which isn't very satisfying either (specially considering the price).

[@Cadaveralien]

I don't think the argument was that inductive reasoning is less satisfactory or immersive when is fiction, but that inductive reasoning always comes with a lesser feeling of confidence about the conclusion reached, making it less satisfactory than a deductive conclusion, the reason why real life vs fiction was addressed in the video is that, while in real life, inductive reasoning is basically unavoidable, in fiction you can have a 100% deductive experience, so is hard to justify using induction at all.

[@AntiNihilist]

I don't think MM knows what "reasonable" doubt means. I hope he never stands in a jury.

[@ChaseFace]

Cynical takeaway from a brilliant video, but sure.

[@AntiNihilist]

@gibbdude it doesn't matter how "educated" in law you are, if it's a judge making the final judgement(which it usually is) then they are being swayed either illegally or by personal feelings.(a judge with children vs one without is always going to judge a pedophile differently even if with the same evidence presented to them. The point of a jury system isn't necessarily for them to determine if a law has been broken but if the individual who broke the law should be forgiven and to what extent they should be forgiven. Reasonable doubt is always up to a person's own determination, but at a point, when there's enough or a specific type of evidence, personal determination doesn't matter much and it enters the realm of the widely accepted limits of coincidence

[@Ratto]

Am I an asshole, when I am disappointed when matthewmatosis video is under 2 hours?

[@morganlak4337]

Ok, throwing out my entire old comment because after thinking about it for another year, I disagree with the video EVEN more than I did before. This argument ignores entirely the themes and emotions the game is trying to create. "I didn't like being uncertain so the games design is misguided" is missing the point. The game is about the uncertainty and mystery of what happened to a ship, and the answer is so fantastical if you hadn't seen it you wouldn't believe it. Forcing players to be uncertain, take risks and leaps seems extremely in line with the emotional experience Lukas designed. I wouldn't be surprised if it was specifically tailored to force induction. Imo, this kind of uncertainty is more memorable and interesting to think about and talk about than if I had approached the game like a sudoku puzzle, filling in each box because Im a smart little lad who figured it out myself. The mistake here is confusing "satisfying puzzle solving" for good game design. Good games are emotional and artistic experiences, they create friction and tension in ways you may not like, invoke feelings that challenge us. Without that, they're just "fine". Also I cannot accept the argument that "fiction needs to alter reality in ways that makes me more comfortable and satisfied" that's just so short sighted and wrong. Fiction exists to make altered realities, that includes ones that are worse or more difficult or less satisfying than the real world, not just ones that are better. Lastly, you gave no direction at all for what specifically you would do to make a "completely deductive" obra dinn. Honestly I'm not even that opposed to making one, but the presentation of this video just rubs me the wrong way. If you had given even a single example of how you would change a certain puzzle in the game I would be much more on your side, but you didn't, and neither did anyone in the comments that I read. TLDR Completely deductive obra dinn could have potentially existed, sure, and it would have been "more satisfying" from a puzzle solving stand point. I don't think that's what the game was about though, and the friction induction creates is more interesting artistically. I would be more on your side if you gave deductive examples within obra dinns framework

[@melephs_cap]

I think you're right that pure deduction is unnecessary, but i think you can alter his argument to compromise in a way I actually prefer. I think he is mainly indicting the game's validation system. Using this game system to show whether your guesses were right is proof that there isn't enough info to reach a certain conclusion about every mystery. If your conclusions can't be certain, the game should not pretend as though they are certain by having accepted solutions. I think Matthew's proposal for an improvement might resemble single-validation that relies on you typing in an answer manually rather than selecting items from a list, and provide more evidence that proves without doubt the identities of the victims. This would make it harder or less desirable to just trial-and-error a solution, and it would not eradicate all induction; it would just give players enough info to confirm their inductions themselves rather than letting the game tell them if they were right. As far as fantasy and mystery goes, I think a surprising hard answer to what seems impossible at first is perfectly in-line with the game's intent. The ending rewards players who fill out the book in a way that the game accepts as "true." And ultimately, the story is not about the fantastical creatures, but about the human behavior. Seeing something mysterious collapse into something familiar and comprehensible once fully investigated is exactly what Obra Dinn is about, imo.

[@vallahdsacretor4839]

I mean, you do make a good point. If the audience is expecting a curve ball and never get it, that could diminish the experience you take away from it. Though I question how you'd make a game like this based on deductive reasoning while still being able to keep a good sized audience engaged?

[@TheOrangeRoad]

Just finished it. Glad I didnt watch your review till after, as you got a couple spoilers in here. Good video though, agreed about the deduction

[@civilwarfare101]

Man, I can't help but think of critical thinking class when watching this.

[@ChadkinsShow]

I got the e-mail for this video and saw "I strongly recommend avoiding this..." and I was terrified that something behind the work of this game was so terrible that it would be cause enough for you to announce to everyone that they should avoid it on moral precedent. Thank GOD that was not the case. Glad to see you upload as always

[@Shnishnugar]

I think you would find Umineko very, very interesting.

[@eandjproductions2]

Shut up weeb lol

[@emiliozacarias5501]

Is this a game or a manga?or both?

[@Esmoxe]

At the same time it doesn't have the interactive element. Which Matthew values a lot.

[@Two-HeadedBoy]

So glad you reviewed this. One of the most interesting games of the last few years.

[@Gworzor]

The game was pretty good but I couldn't help but be let down by the lack of any significant development of the story as I got to the end. It was just a bit too minimalist for me.

[@cinnamonnoir2487]

"Deduction" and "induction" are terms that people commonly confuse. For instance, most people call Sherlock Holmes' mental gymnastics "deduction", when in fact most of his solutions require a fantastic imagination and specialized knowledge to even guess at. Most real-life detective work requires making assumptions, at least to begin with, and is therefore inductive, so I'm not at all surprised that a detective game would lean towards inductive reasoning for its challenges. Logic puzzles (the kind where you have to find out who brought whisky to the party, who was wearing the green dress, who had blonde hair, etc.) are strictly _deductive_ , but that makes them kind of boring to most people. I'm a big fan of nonograms (a.k.a. Picross if you're a Nintendo fan), and those are usually deductive too, but making guesses is a fun way to approach them. Even though deductive puzzles often require greater mental effort than guessing games, you don't _feel_ as smart when you play them because the solution is something you're led to rather than something you invent. I think that's why Yahtzee was such a big fan of this game in particular; it makes you feel really smart by offering a lot of grist for your mental mill. It's not my cup of tea personally, nor was Papers Please, but I have to admire Lucas Pope for his dedication to testing people's minds in unusual ways.

[@islandboy9381]

The reasoning Sherlock applied in his detective work is neither deductive nor inductive, it's called *abductive* reasoning: forming a inference from a set of observations that give the simplest and most likely explanation for these observations. Or as Sherlock put it: _''when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth''_ and I guess that's what made this game so satisfying to figure out the solution because the solution on it's own then _sounds_ very likely. I disagree that deductive puzzles don't make you feel smart because as much as you get leaded to the correct solution it's still up to you to make that final mental step and that's still difficult on the first try.

[@cinnamonnoir2487]

@@islandboy9381 If we're going to split hairs here, I never actually said that Sherlock Holmes' reasoning is induction (read it again if you doubt me). Also, even the man who introduced the term "abduction" to logic admitted that he frequently used it interchangeably with inductive reasoning or inference. However, I get your point. Holmes' work is an act of creativity, the construction of a technically fictional sequence of events that makes logical sense from a disconnected set of known facts. My personal favorite example of this kind of reasoning is found in Dashiell Hammett's Continental Op, who admits on several occasions that his work is more about making a good story stick than strictly finding out the truth. I said you don't feel _as_ smart when you practice deduction, not that you don't feel smart. Any puzzle can do that for you. I admit that this is subjective, but it's my opinion that puzzles which invite you to be creative are more flattering to the player's vanity and make you feel better about yourself. I would actually say that deductive puzzles are generally _harder_ than inductive ones, because the solutions to inductive puzzles are deliberately chosen to be intuitive, the kind of thing that an average person would imagine given enough time. Deductive puzzles aren't made to be easy to guess; inductive ones are. Thank you for your thoughtful response, by the way.

[@I-Rex232]

matt is on a whole other level when it comes to video game critique, every single one of the points he makes is so air tight and the pacing of the videos is so well considered

[@MrShoopezino]

You sound like Forrest Gump

[@luckyumbasa417]

The only reviewer that makes me want to buy games /before/ watching their review...

[@ytoon3031]

Matthew, did you played "Her story"? In this game you need to discover what happened to a seemingly normal middle-aged woman by accessing a database filled with videos of her, the catch being that a search will give out only the first 4 videos related to the entered keyword. Each video you watch is an occasion to learn new thing about her and gather keywords which you can then use in the search engine to repeat the process all other again. When you raised the point of induction in your video, I immediatly thought about this game, because unlike Obra Dinn it never tells you when you are right about something, not even at the end, in fact there is no ending to it. Instead, it's the player and the player only which decide whether he deduced enough and wants to stop. This mights make "Her story" the perfect embodiment of the player-driven detective game, at the cost of being more frustrating than its maritime counterpart. There might be a point on whether some streamlining is better than true player freedom, especially when you want to present a story in addition to all the investigation stuff, but that will take a few pages of developpement. For any one who took time to read this comment, I'd like to know your thoughts on whether it achieved the induction aspect better. Thank you.

[@tear4442]

"It's a petty complaint, but less petty than it first appears" No, it's exactly as petty as it first appears

[@zarodgaming1844]

When i got my hands on it, i felt like i didn't play this game right, that i wasn't approaching it correctly. I'll give it another try after watching this :D

[@AtlasNovack]

You're a joy to listen to, even for a game I've never heard of.

[@barryherbers6090]

Matthew, you are a goddamn treasure, best critic on KZbin, easy.

[@ilyasibz]

If you've finished all of Matthew's videos, check out Noah Caldwell Gervais. He also does long form gaming critiques without any KZbin-culture bs but often covers more nerdy games than Matthew does. Along with Joseph Anderson, they're the holy trinity of KZbin critics.

[@jammer4317]

@@ilyasibz joseph anderson is trash and doesn't understand the importance of brevity

[@roberttausig9170]

@@ilyasibz Noah is clueless and while I generally like Joseph Anderson's videos, he indeed often needs 10 minutes to make a point one could make in 1. Anderson is clearly below Matthew in the quality of his critiques, and Noah shouldn't even be listed. He doesn't make a lot of videos, but SaltFactory is surprisingly good.

[@ilyasibz]

@@roberttausig9170 Yeah don't get me wrong, I definitely don't think Joseph Anderson is on the same level as Matthew. I'm clueless as to why you think Noah's clueless though. It's a rather vague criticism of his critiques. I didn't mention Salt Factory because he's way too 'KZbinr-y' (for want of a better phrase) compared to the rest of the people mentioned and I was specifically talking about creators that don't fancy up their videos and buy into KZbin culture the way most do.

[@antimatter3084]

@@ilyasibz Joseph Anderson is far from the holy trinity of youtube critics, especially with how dragged out his videos are

[@dennystamenov5286]

I like your vids mate

[@SaveDataTeam]

Been a huge fan for a long time. Just curious if the into/outro parodying the style of the game itself was inspired by Kevin Perjurer's Defunctland. Either way, it was a great addition and a wonderful video as usual!

[@GameplayandTalk]

This game has a crazy visual style--I like it.

[@ubertuber3d]

"The game isn't just good, it's great." Coming from him, those simple words mean more than the entire rest of the video combined.

[@Mepholar]

Very satisfying, pun-ridden summary. Provoking and poignant review too.

[@Crowbar]

Yes! My favorite game from 2018. Great review as always and really insightful and bringing up questions I never thought about, but which make perfect sense.

[@Avonaeon]

This was my favorite game in 2018

[@melephs_cap]

Wow. This is great. My experience very closely matches what you described. While I respect this game a lot, I felt a lot of friction with it because it draws an arbitrary line between what's reasonable to assume and what's unreasonable to assume when investigating the deaths. I felt that, if some identities could only be confirmed using process of elimination or logic that wasn't rock-solid abductive reasoning, I had no reason not to make bolder, even stereotypical, assumptions. This was abetted by the game's validation method. I knew if I made enough correct guesses I wouldn't have to go back and prove "for sure" that my guess was correct. This made the investigative experience less appealing. Relatedly, I would argue that Obra Dinn limits its audience somewhat (not necessarily a bad thing) by validating the assumptions of players who know specific cultural information about the time period of the game. Some players will be more confident in their abductive work because they know some things that other players don't, like the clothing a person of a given ethnicity would wear. Effectively, some players will have more evidence to use than other players. The glossary of terms in the book is helpful, but it doesn't go far enough to level the playing field in my opinion.

[@jamma246]

I just completed this game and my thoughts on it were identical. This is an incredibly good review, thank you.

[@CrucialDuude]

I see what you did at the beginning, I love it.

[@MemeticMutant]

Finally one of these I've actually played

[@TheBlackSparrow12]

Ok ok 2 minutes and I can't keep watching thanks for suggesting this game I forgot about it .

[@UrsaMinor-69]

God i love obra dinn, im itching for like 3 years to pass so i can play it again haha

[@Caboose2711]

It's been 3 years! Will you return???

[@UrsaMinor-69]

@@Caboose2711 yea i already did not too long ago, & i loved it even better the 2nd time :) thanks for asking bud!

[@ranglix1]

This is just one of my favourite game i have ever played

[@BandacootK13]

Honestly I feel like the lack of perfect facts is necessary to make the game interesting. if every situation had a silver bullet that perfectly nailed everything to the floor, it would remove the need for the inductive reasoning that allows you to take multiple paths to the right answer. maybe it just comes down to personal taste, but I found having my best guesses being proven right immensely satisfying. I would play a million more games exactly like this. I wonder if it would be possible to take this formula and make a big detective game out of it, or if it would only really function in this confined environment...

[@Christian-gr3gu]

I love how Matt is like "it's good, but can we make it HARDER?"

[@varsoonhks3211]

Obra Dinn was cool until I got about 3/4 through solving the whole book and then realized the only ones I hadn't solved were: 1. People with off-screen deaths 2. People identified by foot-wear 3. People identified by cot number It felt really lame that there were a lot of solutions that fell solely into these categories.

[@gammat8248]

not gonna watch because I plan to play this sometime, but just popping in to give the obligatory like as it's a fucking matthewmatosis video

[@talkingfights]

lol dude this content needs to be injected into my veins. thank you

[@eugenewatson1456]

Hope you guys like nautical metaphors.

[@Trakesh]

As someone who hasn't played this game it seems like a very good review (albeit it might reveal too many plot twists like krakens and crab people, I wouldn't know). Though there's one particular part I feel that was kind of out of far left field. When talking about the chinese you're asserting that its possible that people might have switched bunk beds. And while I don't deny the possibility, its a bit of a big stretch and not something a person could reasonably be considered to start thinking about without any reason. Besides that little tidbit I think all your argumentations and reasons are very strong and that your conclusion does seem to be very sound. Therefore from my perspective your video was very good and entertaining. Sadly though this isn't my type of game, as I do not like detective stories.

[@toberone5158]

I think his point was more that even if it is very unlikely, it is still within the realm of possibility and should therefore be considered but then you can't actually fact check these possibilities so your always a little unsure about your own deductions, basically he is saying you have to put a little too much faith in the game.

[@Trakesh]

Yes that's exactly what I just made a comment on you fucking moron.

[@toberone5158]

@@Trakesh Yea you're right, my bad.

[@davidlynch4202]

Matthew please i have my leaving cert

[@rat4992]

Wow that intro hit me

[@1Tiberiuss1]

I'd argue there are a couple points of deliberate misleading, most notably (SPOILERS) the bosun's mate. Bosun asks for his frenchman, is told that his mate was torn apart. The only person the player has likely seen being torn apart is Maba, the tattooed New Guinean (who doesn't look particularly french, but fits the death so well).

[@johnjekyllson28]

1Tiberiuss1 This one confused me so much. I didn’t understand why it wasn’t being validated.

[@jiakunliu473]

Yeah I got that wrong for a long time. Also he's the only mate who wears different. And I know very very little about the cultures

[@headphonic8]

It's clear he's not a frenchman with all those tattoos, though. And there is a frenchman wearing a classic striped French naval shirt, who is also seen working closely along the Bosun's side during the fight with the kraken. It's an easy mistake to make, but it isn't misleading if you just use the clues there.

[@JustSkram]

Matt notification squad

[@Hugop_arts]

Great review throughout but mimicking the game's own fate outcome/insurance report for the final review was top notch. Subbed for that attention of detail

[@Sagaan42]

Amazing vid, man. You are a Pearl.

[@nickkerinklio8239]

The upload notification made me cüm

[@note4note804]

Is it bad that even after listening to this in it's entirety, I don't actually understand what his complaints or even his point was regarding this game? The first half seems purposeful and achieves it's intent, but it's only kind of a review because almost half of the review is dedicated to a nitpick regarding the meta nature of games as crafted experiences as opposed to the game itself. I don't know, it feels like his brand of videos seems to demand an exercise in pedantic minutiae, but it feels really forced here.

[@wonderguardstalker]

The only thing forced here is this comment goddamn

[@monkiemonA]

My only problem with your critique is that initial statement of deduction being more satisfying that induction. Variety is the spice of life, and there are other games people can play that will scratch the deduction itch. On the other hand, some people may find induction more satisfying than deduction no matter how many curve balls the author may throw at the player. This in my mind, justifies Obra Dinn's existence. Additionally, given the premise, detective stories are always going to throw curve balls so this is the best experience people would get for induction. That is, if you don't count the inductive work players might do in an immersive RPG. In that setting, players may practise induction without necessarily being in a detective role or story. Therefore, players wouldn't be exposed to curve balls made by the developer since their conclusions are made from facts of the game world.

[@fendas123]

Yeah, the deduction induction distinction was something which I didn't understand when I was 11 years old getting into ace attorney.

[@birubu]

With your discussion regarding induction vs deduction, I think you’re correct, and induction is the correct term to describe how you’re actually meant to play. Occam’s Razor is your best friend, and is applicable to every case in this game unless there is clearly conflicting evidence.

[@faez_dabestani]

So... the Case of the Golden Idol is following in these footsteps! You might wanna check it out! I just finished it last night, and it was quite a blast! :)

[@gusonian8637]

Anyone know how he kept that color scheme for some things? My guess is black and white conversion, then turning all blacks to that greenish color, but how the second step over video?

[@klaunstance9554]

0:00 btw the font for the game is actually closer to (or exactly) IM Fell DW Pica. For future reference if you choose to revisit the game.

[@IcaroWWW]

Hey, Matt. Have you ever played Hollow Knight? I'm really curious about your thoughts on the game.

[@TheOrangeRoad]

Cant watch, it's on my wishlist and I intend on playing it very soon. I will ask this: Does Matt like it or not?

[@contendo64]

He thinks that while the game has some areas as a detective game could be improved, few other parts of the game could be improved. He finds a bit of fault in the game's "deduction" due to the logic being induction but nonetheless he finds the game fantastic.

[@TheOrangeRoad]

@@contendo64 Much thanks, ill give this a watch after I play

[@tommero6584]

@@TheOrangeRoad If you are debating Ill just say: PLAY IT!!!!

[@StarWarsUnited123]

are you interested in covering Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze? Would be a pleasure.