Revelation on Mission to 'Lamanites': John Larsen/Carah Burrell @JohnLarsen1 @nuancehoe | Ep. 1483

[@Sugarcookieloves]

This has to be one of my favorite episodes of MSP. John Larson is indeed brilliant & hilarious. Carah livens up every conversation, I love her humor. I’ve seen this two or 3 times now. Thank you for all your efforts!

[@splendidwag]

What a healthy way to move through these episodes: correcting any prior errors and addressing reasonable questions. Thanks John and John and Carah.

[@fosterlanenga4970]

In the introduction, John referenced that there were even some members who believed that they had to wear their garments even during intercourse. I was taught this during my recommend interview to be married in the temple in 1977 by a counselor in the East Los Angeles stake presidency. He gave me direct instructions that I was not to remove my garments at all during my honeymoon. He told me that he and his wife never fully remove their garments even for showering. He wanted me to commit that I would follow that practice or I would not get a recommend and could not be married in the temple 3 days later. I never obeyed his direction but I was scared to death for years to ask anybody if that was right.

[@fantasia55]

So, did Joseph Smith wear his garment while banging other men's wives?

[@taso9846]

The fact that this episode is free is amazing. This is a semester of college

[@mormonstories]

❤️❤️💪💪

[@nolavee3477]

I came back and treating others to MS episodes. When JHL used the word “wigwam”- it brought back many childhood memories.

[@trudyburgoyne808]

I think it’s wonderful that JL speaks from the heart! Swearing and all!

[@huffpappy]

Hell's yea!

[@nancyhuston1939]

Listening to the podcasts has given me support to address dark, long kept family secrets that have kept us sick. I am grateful for your resource.

[@FFM115]

Just the explanation of Larsen about the true church is already enough the whole episode. Great interview and content.

[@Spungle15]

Yes! This helps explain some miscommunications with my non-Mormon friends regarding religion.

[@sheilab2154]

I really have learned a lot from JL. Please keep his content coming.

[@davidfoust9767]

I'll never get tired of listening to John Larsen. Would he ever do a not Mormon related content podcast? I'd listen whatever the topic.

[@willieclark2256]

Literally if he did a mommy blog I'd read it

[@thoughtsbeforesleep]

He did do a short-lived podcast a number of years ago that was just him and he talked about topics unrelated to Mormonism. I remember he had one particularly interesting episode about some of his experiences working with police departments. I can't remember the title of the podcast though.

[@justshani8950]

I would definitely watch or listen to

[@xaviera9994]

Love these episodes with John. Super interesting topic that shows the boldness of his claims, controversy (and crazyness) of Joseph theories. I prefer doctrine/historical episodes personally, so the more John L the better 👍

[@lesliecan8]

I love how feisty, raw, and real Larsen speaks his truth so effortlessly.

[@tedwilliams9669]

John Larsen is spot on as always!

[@joyallthetime1]

John Larsen you said something that brought so much peace and understanding to me and my hubs... we have struggled with our frustrations for the church but then worry that we don't want to hurt kind people we love... you are totally right!!! The church is its own separate entity with no feelings and that is where our frustration is directed. Thank you for explaining that so wonderfully!

[@trudyburgoyne808]

Love John Larsen! Keep him showing up.

[@kidndn]

There are indigenous people all the way down to South America. The church effort is huge there.

[@harlanlang6556]

Very interesting and educational even for a never-Mormon like me. I taught at the Indian school in Brigham City in 1962-3. The students were all Navajo from age 10 through high school and never left the school from August through April. No Christmas vacation home....that would be expensive and some of the kids would avoid coming back to school. But the school did have an indoor olympic size swimming pool and a bowling alley. There were also living quarters for teachers and other employees. It's enlightening to learn about any religion within the historical and cultural context. So I appreciate how John Larsen brings this context to life. All American religions grew out of the same cultural context and are the result of what and how people thought in those days. My own family is from Arkansas where religion was just as intense and self-righteous as Mormons. I can still remember the heated discussions about the "true church" within the family, and Mormons were not even part of the discussion. It was Southern Baptist versus Church of Christ. This is a very American kind of thing, but I sense that it's declining. Once we moved to California when I was four, my mother never returned to the Baptist church and never mentioned Jesus or God. She was free! And I didn't have anything to rebel against. I was lucky to be friends with a member of the Onondaga tribe in New York. His name was Hassa and he was raised by his grandparents. Their word for God meant "Grandfather-Grandmother" just as Christians refer to God as Father. Hassa taught me about how the Iroquois Confederation was created through the teachings of a prophet named Deganawida, called the Great Peacemaker. Former warring tribes became united through believing in Deganawida and following His teachings. So now we know that there actually were Prophets among the Native Americans, and the Founding Fathers of the U.S. were aware of these teachings and included some of them into the U.S. Constitution. One that I remember is the idea of the separation of powers. Another that we might should try is the Onondaga way of choosing a male leader. Only the women were allowed to vote on who he should be. Concerning the literalism found in Mormonism and most protestant churches, this isn't how Jesus thought and taught. A good example is the way Jesus interpreted the prophecy from Malachi 4:1-5: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" The Jews believed that the coming of the Messiah would be preceded by the return of Elijah, so the Christians were asked if Jesus is the Messiah, then where is Elijah? Jesus answered that John (not Larsen) the Baptist was Elijah (Mark 9:11-13). This obviously was not the literalist way of understanding. This is mystical and metaphorical. But the tendency in church theology is to get as literal as you can, because then you can pin down belief systems into creeds that are easily understood. Concerning the elitist tendencies in human nature, we all want to feel special and important. My feeling is that this is not the intent of Jesus, or Buddha, or Zoroaster, etc. The intent is to bring unity and love. As John mentions, the successors to the Founders of Religion like Jesus and Buddha lost that vision of universal inclusion and were satisfied with being part of the chosen. If any religion is worthy of your time and attention, it really needs to be focused on the human race: What's best for the health and prosperity of all people, not just my tribe. This religion needs to promote science and the truths revealed by scientific investigation and the scientific system of thinking. Interestingly, the latest developments in quantum physics has found evidence that the ultimate reality of the material universe, the reality underlying all the particles of the atom, is a limitless "field" from which all matter, stars, planets, etc. are in a process of coming from, or returning to. Matrix is probably a good word for it, or some may use the word "God". So it's getting rather mystical! And I like that. "Truth" and "reality" has to include everything. I'm going to keep on learning from John Larsen because he makes me think and reflect. Would John be the same person if he'd been born into a Methodist family? I don't think so. Even if Mormonism is fake, it has produced some great people. Pain, trial and hardship are needed, maybe, for certain human qualities to develop, like questioning, like courage, like detachment from all things not true.

[@davidcarruth1085]

I won't believe everything this guys are saying , Polynesian also we're laminites and Addison Pratt had great success ,15 stakes in Utah? Native Indian blood will convert in a day! It's not over and I think you know it! They blocked me so I can't reply. If the medicine man speaks again in near future you know you will come!

[@mormonstories]

What a fantastic comment. Thank you so sincerely!!!

[@harlanlang6556]

@@davidcarruth1085 Believe the science. Polynesians originated in SE Asia. Genetics don't lie. Believing that something is true doesn't make it so. The universe is like a Holy Book and science unlocks the meaning of this Holy Book. It's better to see humanity as a flower garden of diverse and beautiful colors.

[@davidcarruth1085]

You are 100% correct ,DNA and the scientific method is the the best way to believe.That being said the truth today will always change in time .. it seems? Look into the first foreign speaking mission of the church ,it too was laminites to Tahiti. If you ever watch BYU football look at there names .... Islanders even the coaches so you see all was not lost ,some joined the minute they heard! There darker than most Indians too! They practice d cannibalism and now they are per Capita highest nations of Mormons? Don't stop believing yet in Joseph just yet on the DNA . Joseph Smith didnt tell us everything ? Remember? If he did you would seek his blood? jLarson and Delin mad at the world because the Lord didn't answer there prayers,so now they are going to prove that it's a fraud! it's called life and it's all faith in the end ... Some have it and there mocked for it ,some chose to show all the Prophecy s Joseph got wrong! He was ether the best deceiver to live in last 200 year or he is as he claimed.... Kinda scary but if you think your just going to believe when all of a sudden they say DNA was wrong and your joing to join now you shouldn't be allowed until you repent with suffering ... The Lord will not be moched! And for the recored the Indians have been given more than anybody out side our great country .. and yes they would have gutted you and your families and ate you , go way apocalyptio that move is very accurate one I true Indian culture of the America s the languages of our Indian are mostly uto Aztecin of origin. They were no saints! Kimball tried and it worked , they know and some day there will be a great chief who will show them their idleness and will change .. I believe in the near future?

[@harlanlang6556]

@@davidcarruth1085 Yes, truth does change through more evidence and better understanding. This is true of science and should be for religion too. And as we mature, we are able to get a more mature understanding as individuals and as a human race. Whatever we believe about religion will be drastically changed in a few centuries, not because we are necessarily wrong, but because our understanding will grow. 7 year old kids have a beginning understanding of math and that's all they can handle, but over time they will be able to learn more math that a 7 year old just couldn't understand. This is true with everything we know and believe. Time and experience are great teachers. We just need to love and understand that people are all at particular levels of understanding, and they are not to be blamed for not being more mature. We don't blame our children for being immature. We know they will grow and we accept and love them at whatever level they're at.

[@willieclark2256]

I'm one of those people who can't get enough of Mr Larsen. He makes me want to be a better person after listening in real material ways

[@Dmountaingoblin]

Me to he’s great 👍🏻

[@willieclark2256]

One push back though. There is no such thing as the environment in balance, it is always evolving it was just being managed to evolve in as symbiotic a fashion as the technology would allow.

[@brettwjensen]

You and me both!!

[@brittanybuscay2668]

I watched the last Podcast with John...as a conservative "MAGA" lover lol I absolutely love John's honesty, his passion for truth and his blunt way of speaking his mind..I may not agree with a very few small things but I love this guy..please keep bringing him on...I get so much knowledge and "ah ha" moments from him..thank you

[@Cryptosifu]

I think this is the case with most MAGA people. We can put aside our political belief system for the truth, whereas, most liberals cannot. We can eat our own, integrity is a valuable ally. Great job, John.

[@kevintroy4329]

@@Cryptosifu MAGA'ts are vermin. Nothing more, nothing less.

[@ericafors6039]

I miss Carah Burrell as a co-host on MSP. She added so much to the discussion with her unique perspective and communication style. John Larsen was awesome, as he always is…. Thanks, great show!

[@AnthonyFloresCPA]

John you totally buried a huge selling point of the Thrive event! I went to start looking into, worried how much the whole trip would cost, factoring in the cost of the tickets. Then I see that it's only $25 each! Please emphasize this! Keep up the great work, and Thank You.

[@JeffDayPoppy]

My ex-grandmother-in-law, born in 1910, was one of the generation who kept the Garment on her body at all times, even showering by removing only part at a time. She lived to be 100. It's not an anti-Mormon exaggeration or lie at all.

[@janepoindexter4470]

Yeah...and my dad is 93 and never worn a garment...so age is not a support for garments. There is a lady in my town who is 103...no garments

[@pansprayers]

@@janepoindexter4470 age wasn't being used as a correlation between wearing garments and longevity, Jane. It was being pointed out that OP's 100 year old grandmother actually did follow the old thought process on garments, and it's not an anti-Mormon lie, as so many members of the church have been led to believe. The age of your relative and random neighbor have nothing to do with the original comment, or the bias you applied to to simply feel superior. Read for context, not for convenient smugness.

[@janepoindexter4470]

@@pansprayers if your point wasn't longevity associated with the garment I misunderstood. You pointed out she lived to a hundred and serned to connect how careful she was with how long she lived. You called me smug and I could say the same of your statement. How about we both misunderstood and let it go. And who were you answering that it wasn't an anti- mormon exxagerration or lie...I did not insinuate anything like that. I merely said my dad has lived long, too so it wasn't necessarily the garment...but maybe it could have been. I don't know. I think it is awesome your grandma got to live that long and that you got to have her in your life here fir that long. I feel the same about my dad. Not ready to lose him for sure!! Enjoy your grandma and don't pick up being smug like me whatever you do. Kindness is important. Mormons and non-mormons both believe in kindness!! My dad is a medical physician and a pastor and he gave away alot of medical care to people who couldn't afford it and to the student athletes, he gave free medical physicals and attended all sports competitions as their doctor for free. He built schools for children in India and He paid for a science lab for the high school kids named after my mom who had passed away. He did house calls for the poor people in our area because it was an area of poverty. In addition, he titled. And he gave away so much money in addition that the IRS audited him 5 straight years and never found anything. Many times we didn't know he gad given money until a missionary came to speak our church and they would show the buildings my dad had given money to build. He didn't tell us when he gave cuz Jesus said in the gospels to not tell when you give money like the Pharisees did. He has quietly blessed so many and by the time we were in high school and we traveled even over to Europe he ran into people that knew him. Besides being a doctor and pastor, he farmed and would go out a 4 or 5 in the morning and hoe trees...or go for a horse ride. Come back to get ready...would eat breakfast with us and read the Bible and then he would be off to three hospitals to do rounds on his patient ( he might have been out delivering babies in the night or meeting sick people at the emergency room. This was a time before they shared practices with someone else. He was also on the school board. He borrowed a wagon every year fir the towns Tractor Rodeo Days and he rode dressed as the old fashioned country driver in that buggy pulled behind a farmer's palomino horse. And every night when he got home he would go out and play baseball or basketball or football on the lawn and in the winter wrestling in the family room until we got called to dinner. We prayed over our meals and then he would read from the Bible with us until he had to leave for a church Meeting, or go to a school board meeting, or sports events at the school, or if he had gone to people"s houses to show them filmstrips about Jesus or could be having a home Bible study. Then he would come back home to tuck us in, read Bible stories to us and pray with us before we went to sleep. Then he might get called out middle of the night to deliver babies or to handle emergencies that were his patients. He was amazing. I have called him our ever ready bunny whose battery never ran down. He was in charge of our youth group and Every Sunday morning and night both my parents took cars to pick up kids. Over 100 kids were in our house every Sunday evening for youth group. So and snacks My sister and I would make 100s of cookies and my mom made homemade root beer soda for all the kids. Phenomenol childhood and my dad us my hero@

[@kevintroy4329]

@@janepoindexter4470 You were smug and even thought it appropriate in your smugness to write a God damned book on it!!🙄😒

[@Spungle15]

I’m a simple man. I see John Larsen, I click.

[@Sadie37]

Swearing is my favorite!🥰 John speaks from the ❤️ heart! I wouldn’t change a thing !

[@MargaretPritchett]

This specific showing has finally made me understand why my mother joined the LDS Church. My mother's family has a Native American lineage, yet for the last few generations has tried to deny/remove it from our history. I was never taught my history. My mother was such an independent woman from a Matriarchal family, yet she almost immediately acquiesced to this Patriarchal religion. Basically at age 7, I went to bed one night a "normal" Christian, and woke up the next morning as Mormon. My entire world was turned upside-down. I went from chocolate chip cookies and milk after school to (disgusting) carob cookies and white milk only. (Yes, it was the 70's). I went from a card playing family, (Euchre & Canasta), to absolutely no cards, as they were a gambling culture, my adoptive father, (PURE SLIME), decided that I, the eternal tomboy, must ALWAYS be "chaste" and in dresses past my knees and long sleeves. Have you ever tried to play baseball in long dresses and sleeves? Needless to say, I got my backside busted many times for sneaking pants to school. Eventually all my pants were taken from me, and I had work/play dresses and school/church dresses. So much more I could go into, but will not at this time, but it has taken me many years to get away from the hatred I had for the church, though I never hated the people. I hope this makes sense. Thank you for this show. I have watched many episodes, but this particular one, has helped me massively. Also, the shows that show how the church has not helped those of us with sexual assault. You have helped me personally, and I am grateful.

[@EMILY_EX1968]

Thank you all three of you for every single thing you have said. All your knowledge and research. Big time thanks frim me. I SUPPORT allllllll of this. I want this to be me. I HAVE all of these thoughts and feelings . We need to band together and be better as a human race to allow all people to be who they are and eradicate the domination of any other humans. Wow I wish I could be on this podcast and add my story and my life to move this forward.

[@alethearia]

I completely forgot about the time period of church history and where it relates to modern history. Germ theory isn't a thing yet. Boiling water would save thousands of lives... and here the church is insisting that hot drinks are bad for you. Scientific fact: the advent of tea as a popular drink in the UK actively lengthened lifespans thanks to the boiled water.

[@pamelaq6185]

Never thought of that 🤯

[@davidwelsh332]

I hate to add to your to-do list the Johns and Carah but one issue that needs to be raised is the bizarre disconnect between the Mormon belief, then and now, of what Judaism is and what is actually is. Jews didn't just not believe Christ was the Messiah 500 years before his birth. They don't believe it now. They're still waiting. If you want to call that cultural appropriation of Judasim by Mormonism you can. Frankly in my conversations I've found Mormon's have essentially no understanding of the Jewish religion as it's every been practised. And yet so much of Mormonism rests on this "understanding". I'm sure there must be a good liberal Rabbi who'd find it an interesting episode.

[@markpeter1968]

my limited understanding is Joseph and the Mormons were self described Jews and beloved of god building zion, and all the other Americans were gentiles and pagans/infidels.

[@MsCaterific]

❤️💛💙 I greatly appreciate Mr. Larsen! I'm learning so much. I'm not a fan of the yelling, it's triggering for me 🥺, but what he shares is so important that I'll suffer through the yelling bits. What a stupendous episode! Thx gang❣️

[@brettwjensen]

I testify that John is the One True Larsen

[@harlanlang6556]

I testify that brother Jensen is right on!

[@tor_ras91]

John Larsen I disagree, you're the best Sunday school teacher in the history of the church!

[@deaarcee3269]

Again, thank you for the clarification you make for the Never Mormons.

[@ryanberg2892]

More John Larsen Please and thank you!

[@questioningcat7949]

Interesting timing - The Canadian Gov is having it’s First Stat Holiday September 30th, Truth and Reconciliation for First Nations.

[@lottaapples8635]

"be kind to people, be ruthless with institutions" Micheal Brooks rest in power

[@atheistapostate7019]

Awesome statement by Larson on where his anger is directed! I myself also state on my channel I am NOT anti member, I am anti leaders/organization. The members are just as duped as we once were

[@Cryptosifu]

I agree.

[@Rjohnson8641]

Best MS episode in a while. You guys are respectful and funny on this one. I am a W.W. Phelps descendant, Wow, the "Red Man." Insanity. I am reminded again just how silly, sexist and racist Mormonism is.

[@kentthalman4459]

Early on in the Church's fledgling, JS calls members to convert the Lamanites, later, he used them to marry their wives while they were gone.

[@bdshafer]

Blessings to those speaking truth to power.

[@MisMissie]

Love listening to you guys & all the great points made by John Larsen! My question… if it is the “True” church but the truth is always changing (progressive) then what truth do you stand on?

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

Larson really knows his shit

[@backdraft53]

Thanks Carah and John(s)

[@riptide311]

Fantastic listen as always. Really looking forward to that live event discussing the Jaredite barges.

[@dtsosie5836]

I just come across this discussion. It's interesting to learn about "true" facts regarding the native tribes. Great job!

[@satutoivonen9679]

22:40 I was raised Lutheran and I can't remember ever being taught anything about a/the church, true or otherwise. It just wasn't important. So yeah, I'd say Larsen is spot on about the question of "true church" in Christianity. At least in Lutheranism the question doesn't exist. What was stressed instead was the importance of congregation: "...where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:20). Meaning, that any random folks that believe in Jesus and want to, say, pray or celebrate Jesus together, are a "true" congregation in the sense that Jesus will accept them as such and He will be there and hear them out. A church isn't needed at all to practise faith. Priests, ceremonies, sacraments, doctrines, all are superfluous. All you need to practise faith is to remember Jesus once in a while in a gathering of two to three people.

[@davidbritt6506]

Wow Mormonism is more of interesting now that I don't believe the fairy tales.

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you.

[@littlezentz]

I want a religion to practice with others with no god and no need for the government to allow tax deductions, no gods, no moral authority. All I want to do is be among people who want to overcome historical mistakes and face the fact we need each other.

[@MarshaAnderson-i1j]

Right now I’m stuck on why God demands worship.

[@littlezentz]

i know right@@MarshaAnderson-i1j

[@taso9846]

Is there a “win a lunch with Larsen” coming? I’d love to participate.

[@allekatrase3751]

To Carah's comment at the end, I feel stupid now, but I believed all of it. When you start with a magical worldview and being taught that with God all things are possible, then you can ignore reality because God can make it work however it needs to.

[@markmagana7389]

Great episode. At minute 2:24:10 you mention Joseph Smith linked the trail of tears with manifest destiny. Any link to where I can find he said that? Thanks

[@JC-vq2cs]

This is such an important and insightful discussion, thank you John L, John D, and Carah. I listened again via audio only because live chat and my ability to multitask don't really align lol (Carah how do you do it? :) John L's point at about the 41 minute mark is key: "...from a Mormon perspective, from a 19th century Mormon perspective, they were unambiguous that Indians were "Lamanites" be they wherever they were at..." As a NeverMo in Mormonland "investigator" who got obsessed with Mormonism to take my mind off the pandemic and the news while in lockdown, this point seemed immediately obvious to me in my explorations (thank you Naked Mormonism and My Book of Mormon podcasts, RFM, and of course Mormon Storries, among other sources). Since Joseph Smith's time, Native-Americans-as-Jews-from-the-Mideast has been proven false by science (and just plain rationality) beyond any reasonable doubt - and by Native peoples and their own traditions themselves. The ongoing mental gymnastics and literal treasure invested (probably 10s of millions of $ or more) to try to place "lamanites" of the BOM somewhere long-lost in mesoAmerica is just painful to observe. And now...."we just don't know/some questions we just can't answer" as the main apologetic? Ouch. John L's careful walk through the failed early prophesies and mission to the "lamanites" does not even need to rely on DNA, archaelogy, etc. - just documented history. Very good research and explanation, it clarified a lot for me. Unfortunately, Joseph Smith didn't stick to the purely supernatural and thus generally unfalsifiable, like his evolving epistomology, various levels of heaven and eternal families, even the preexistence. (personally I think this is actually falsifiable but I digress). Smith claimed to write a true history. The most true book - it's just not. Or even vaguely true. It may not be true, but it is fascinating! Including the human psychology involved then and now - how members can completely thought-stop and glide over all the glaring issues still boggles my mind. Ah, the power of undue influence. Keep up the great work, happy to be a donor to the John Larsen special guest series.

[@mormonstories]

Brilliant comment!!! Thank you so so much!! I owe you an ice cream!!

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

Love you John Larson. That's how I feel about words. It's sad that's Mormons can't look past the fucking words to see the real issues.

[@davidwelsh332]

If Christians id that there would be no Christianity. if Muslims did that would be no Islam. Just a weak theism at best based on feelings. It's a human problem, not a Mormon one.

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

@@davidwelsh332 yes but you have missed the point. Mormons make it such a point of contention. That they completely shut down.

[@letahamilton2754]

@@TrevorThatBandanaGuy An excuse, perhaps, to retreat into the security of their belief system? No more reflective thinking required if I’ve used a swear word as an excuse to stop listening. 🤷‍♀️

[@huffpappy]

Too bad DNA testing wasn't around in Joseph Smith's day or he would not have wasted his time on the American descendants of Siberian people. He could have spent his entire life looking for the descendants of the Lamanites and never found them. To this day, no one has been able to find these elusive critters. Your chances of finding a unicorn are just as good being as how they and Lamanites are fictitious.

[@davidcarruth1085]

They block my comments, but Polynesian also we're missioned to and they have blossom like a rose ,but they won't talk about that

[@huffpappy]

@@davidcarruth1085 The Polynesian people are also from Asia, specifically from the indigenous people of Taiwan. They are not of Jewish descent. DNA is the death knell for the validity of the BOM, and Book of Abraham, and many Mormon doctrines/teachings with regards to the origin of Native Americans, Polynesians, etc.

[@pansprayers]

@@davidcarruth1085 the Polynesians have thrived IN SPITE of the LDS Church, not the other way around. The LDS Church really needs to stop trying to colonize the world, because it's only causing long term issues.

[@christineludlam4170]

Here in Uk ,women have bosoms ,and can feed their babies with them ,but Americans disapprove !

[@mrgrnjns1111]

Here's a question how much contact did Joseph have with the Iroquois. Reason I ask this is I am Seneca and our tribe has oral history that their was a fair skinned Indian and also even has a legend of what some say is Christ. Maybe he got the whole thing from them. I have often wondered this throughout my life.

[@dan9948]

That politically incorrect hand gesture for "lamanites" in the BoMS primary song, was not just in the 70s and 80s. I grew up in the 90s and it was quite present then as well. Even into the 2000s I've observed this still being passed down in some instances

[@kidndn]

I was told by my BYU professor that upon baptism there was a literal change in blood so that we could have the blood of Israel in our veins.

[@a.bad.mormon6679]

Can't remember if you mentioned this, but the BoM even talks about Christopher Columbus in a "positive-guided by the spirit" way. And at church they read those verses as one of the fulfilled prophecies of the BoM, but actually Joseph Smith wrote it more than three centuries later, he already had all of the information

[@koljag5]

I would love to go to thrive day, but my wife is pregnant and due in the middle of November. Will there be a live cast option?

[@mormonstories]

Yes!

[@mememe1468]

I think it's shocking how many movements exist today that realize the restoration has occurred and forget about the indians. I've heard before that converting the Jewish people was a big reason for the BoM but I always forget the indians are included in that. Another interesting thing but when I was in my faith crisis I was coming further and further to my catholic roots. I'm half native American and it was really refreshing how indian Catholics took their faith. One very interesting historical person amongst native Catholics was Black Elk. He reminds me of the Joseph smith prophecy of the " One mighty and strong". Black Elk was , at least in his biography, a prophet reckoned to be similar to Jeremiah. He could apparently see the future and heal people! He became a catechist and alot of people are trying to get him canonized as a saint today. Some of his prayers and ideas can be found around KZbin and it's honestly pretty fascinating how he joined his catholic faith and culture together!

[@christophercampbell4166]

Oh yeah the Lamanite hand gesture. I totally forgot about that! We did that in the 90s as well.

[@brooklynparkse]

Just a fact checking note, it’s been mentioned a few times that the missionaries sent out to preach were okayed to marry the Native American women when they were married themselves - thus the first introduction of polygamy. Those four missionaries were Cowdery, Pratt, Whitmer Jr, and Peterson. Of those four, only Pratt was married at the time of the mission - unless there were other missions which I can’t find record of. Just trying to help. 😬

[@aaronnicoll8094]

How do I see the show notes they are always referencing? Lol im on KZbin and cannot find them

[@mormonstories]

They will be up tomorrow!

[@aaronnicoll8094]

@@mormonstories Ah I see :) I would love to follow John’s Reddit and maybe be of some help. Thank you for being authentic and compassionate enough to do this, it’s personally helped me more then I’ll probably ever be able to articulate.

[@kiterafrey]

As someone who is a mix of Israeli and Shoshone (N.A) - it has always confused me that in the Book of Mormon I wouldn’t be multi-racial anymore.

[@susangroom960]

I didn't realize Jesus "made a church". He created a revolution and new way of thinking-not just live a law. Which to me, opposes the dogmatic theology of LDS thinking.

[@christineludlam4170]

Americans travel the world telling the rest of us we are inferior.We just have a good laugh when they have gone.

[@lesliedaubert1411]

I come from both the Seneca and Lenape, (aka) Delaware. I do have European too. But some of my ancestors were stuck on the Atlantic Ocean side as slaves. Various proof. Both my parents parents come from those Native American tribes. Later, I had white ancestors ,even in the 1800s and 1900s who got pushed off their farms by the military and had their houses used as target practice. Where I live now in Pennsylvania, there is a Walmart store that was built on top of a Native American burial site. I'm glad the one has been haunted ever since it was built.

[@mattjohansson8931]

"The Tribe" really good book Carah. Good plug! I can't remember where I read it, but the nazis were good with the mormons in Europe and Germany during ww2 once they realised how racist their beliefs were. Previous to that they were a bit sus on them, being an American religion. Then realised oh you're one of us. Great episode guys.

[@jeffk464]

The Germans during WW2 treated the western prisoners in general better than they treated Russians, etc. I mean not perfectly, but a lot better.

[@vonnbriggs8190]

John Larsen hype!!!!!!

[@ReadingComprehension8X]

John , Why do u think the mound building is a myth?

[@mormonstories]

The mound building is not a myth. The accompanying legends and folklore about light and dark skinned native Americans is the the myth part.

[@ReadingComprehension8X]

@@mormonstories ok thank u for the clarification I’m gonna go to episode 1063 and look into that thank u for the recommendation and all the work you all are doing , also if y’all could take into account when you all use terms like “light” to pertain to things positive and “dark” to pertain to things negative ur still using damaging terminology which I can completely understand this is a hard language to navigate without missteps

[@bgardunia]

Shows also US focus of LDS church too. No thought for the rest of the America’s

[@kiterafrey]

I think the content rating is a great idea. It beats uncomfortable bleeping.

[@monus782]

Mr. Larsen is a lot more patient than I am when it comes to responding to questions like the "true church" one, I would've straight up said that such a thing never existed to begin with because I don't believe Christianity in general is true to begin with (and I used to be Catholic while believing my own church was the true one, some apologists there use very similar rhetoric like the guy who made the question did).

[@lisawyatt1671]

To idle Indian hearts = To tame/lower their Indian passion. He'll come for your redemption, And break your gentle yoke = He'll come and break your spirit The yolk is the heart and spirit of the egg. Beyond Gross

[@corbinbrodie2636]

Another fantastic episode. That hymn at the end is jaw-droppingly nauseating. The towering condescension (and historical ignorance) in it. It was good you took a pause between each verse just to be suitably (and very entertainingly!) nauseated. I sometimes forget that 'red man' used to be a term for Native North Americans. I mean, if the Book of Mormon had said the punishment for sinfulness was to be cursed with red skin, then, well then all us blond, fair skinned, freckly people who travel to Spain in hot sunny weather would be considered pretty wicked folk. You guys should do a whole podcast looking at LDS hymns in general. I'll bet some of them still contain not yet expunged nuggets of true awfulness (beyond the general silliness). I still feel conflicted because church music was something I actually enjoyed. Only one as a kid I really hated... 'Saturday is a special day it's the day we get ready for Sunday...' etc. etc. Not only because the melody was so terrible, but because I was thinking...jeez isn't Sunday enough? What, not even one barbeque or swimming trip amidst the teeth brushing, hair combing, clothes folding etc?

[@ryanhollist3950]

I'm trying to work on starting my own KZbin channel. There are several parts of this I want to bring up when I get going.

[@adammcguk]

37:52 Only one book of commandments and that was 1833. D&C was 1835.

[@mormonstories]

THANK YOU ADAM!!!

[@Moksha-Raver]

Laminates are fine when discussing the descendants of the Cedars of Lebanon.

[@qazxswrdc]

I grew up with the book of Mormon stories song complete with hand gestures in the mid 2000s

[@mstringham]

My mom nearly cried when I threw them on the ground when I first started wearing Gs. I thought that was extreme.

[@kiterafrey]

I can’t speak for every group, but I know in many tribes women are truly treated equal to men historically. I’d 100% run away from a misogynistic colony back to equality myself.

[@geschaftsmanngeschaftsmann6891]

Hey just gonna add a few comments here The Redman story I mean the song It's referring to the fact that the descendants of the native Americans are from the tribe that came from Jacob It is so difficult though that they would rub in on the faces of the people that they conquered that they have nothing

[@soloban81]

The Jaredite Barges were like the drug smuggling narco submarines 😂

[@juanjaramillo96]

As a kid who never has religion forced on him, this is scary... I mean Clovis societies prove that native people's came from Asia. There's no argument there. The argument is how they moved throughout the continents so quickly and diversely.

[@Cryptosifu]

Maybe the continents of ASIA and North America were connected at that time???

[@pansprayers]

@@Cryptosifu my tribe still has verbal traditions about how we came across the Baring Straight. It's also what anthropology and archeology has speculated. For Asia and N America to be directly connected in any larger way when we transitioned would require that my people were around before the dinosaurs. And that's just not a thing.

[@jeffk464]

How quickly? They had maybe 15,000 to 25,000 years to make their way down to the tip of South America.

[@ShamanicLightHealing]

Great information. I just needed to add that I know we're in the day and age where we know the difference between Indians and native Americans. I guess it's just a huge pet peeve of mine that those who are trying to address racism are not using the right identifying term.

[@jeffk464]

Indian was an unfortunate term for Native Americans. There was/is already an Indian culture. Many Native Americans do seem to prefer to call themselves Indian, but its not a great term for them. They identified as tribes/nations they didn't really see themselves as one people, so they really had no term that includes the entire group of Native Americans.

[@roger8773]

Regarding 'we are the chosen,' join a choir, any choir, and you will instantly be a member of THE greatest choir on earth. 😂 And that's the way it should be.

[@Cadwerx1]

Joe first and foremost should;ve used his rock and hat to translate a book the native americans could read, God didn't or wouldn't give Josephs Myth any idea? I don't think all this stuff was thought out. KEEP JOHN ON THE SHOW. Thank you John D. and Carah. Everyone have a great day!! 1:26:23 great stuff

[@gary_stavropoulos]

Just once I would like to hear someone criticize citizens united without conflating the word people with a person.

[@desiraejordan2872]

I was just thinking that the "ONE TRUE CHURCH" is within you. Those who have the holy Spirit within them. Those who have excepted Jesus Christ as their lord and Savior.

[@CatskillsGrrl]

John’s comments about Kimball are interesting. Kimball was much beloved during his presidency. I think his real-life appeal faded quickly after his death when all Mormons were left with was his writings.

[@jenniferstevenson1618]

All this rating is sad. What attracted me first was the raw honesty.

[@sabatamapetla]

I simply loooooooove Larson...

[@thoughtsbeforesleep]

[John Dehlin]: What was the name of your studio? [Me, yelling at my monitor]: STUDIO FIST IN YOUR FACE!!!!! :)

[@TrevorThatBandanaGuy]

I always find it amazing when Mormons or anyone that has a belief structure based in the Bible demands proof of someone that criticizing the Bible or the book of Mormon, when they're the ones that have a whole structure of life based on no actual evidence or proof. It's just laughable. And what's even more hilarious about them demanding proof is the Bible in the book of Mormon have already been debunked through historians and scholars and experts in their respective fields.

[@davidwelsh332]

But they are in a world of doctored information, a bubble of lies, a kind of Stalinism light where critics are scum to be smashed and outside sources blocked. I'm of the Johns' age and I have friends the same who grew up in the Soviet Union. They really did believe they were the richest, strongest and most powerful force on Earth that possessed the truth of how the human story would conclude. Until Gorbachev came along anyway. The Mormon bubble is what the net is challenging and why the Mormon Church as a mass participatory religious cult is bleeding out.

[@janepoindexter4470]

You have name Tanto spelled incorrectly hence you have wrong meaning for name...Tanto has very positive meaning

[@pansprayers]

No they don't, Jane. Tonto was the Lone Ranger's side kick, it does mean 'dumb or foolish person' in Portuguese and Spanish. It's literally spelled that way in the film's, on the scripts, and within the books. It's a trope, and a poorly constructed one at that. You know full well that it's vastly different to a 'tanto', or a Japanese short sword. Don't try to whitewash history, just because it makes you feel superior. There's enough of that going around already, and trying to further edit it is ignorant at best.

[@bezoar7735]

Take off the garmets for the three S events “Swimming and sports”

[@rogerrutz5820]

No, let's keep the garments on for swimming. Old time swim suits accommodated garments. While we are at it let's go back to those old pre-1979 one piece garments.

[@emilym.2830]

I love this John Dehlin 😂😂😂

[@CheesySteve]

I appreciate your trigger warning, John, but you might also need to give one about Tannehill.

[@christineludlam4170]

I wish the young lady would speak more crisply.I want to learn all of these conversations.