Review: Solti Storms London--Much of the Time

[@TheScottishoats]

The significance of your comment on the experience of buying a new record once upon a time brought back such nice memories. Discovering a new Karajan recording, taking it home, unwrapping it and placing it on the turntable platter-beautiful! It was truly special in the way so few things are anymore. Thank you for that touchstone.

[@GastonBulbous]

I think Karajan is the equivalent of 60s rock for Boomers who liked classical music at the time. Karajan is loved because he was THE guy in the 60s and 70s and many record buyers of that generation have such affection for his recordings based on nostalgia. For those of us who came to classical music later (I was a Gen Xer who was buying punk and New Wave records in the 70s), Karajan frequently seems overrated, just like many of the hippie rock bands.

[@weewee2169]

@@GastonBulbous say what you will karajan ranks as my favourite on many important recordings

[@alanmillsaps2810]

One reason for the success of most of Solti's recordings made in London and Vienna is that they generally sound much better than his CSO recordings. Decca mastered the acoustics of Kingsway Hall in London and the Sofiensaal in Vienna to a fare-thee-well, but IMHO never did as well in Chicago. It's no accident that Solti's famous Mahler 8 was recorded in Vienna while they were on tour. Decca's engineers knew the results they could get there and delivered the goods. DG did much better in the 70s and 80s with their CSO recordings made with Abbado, Barenboim and Giulini than Decca did with Solti.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Very true.

[@ericnagamine7742]

Jay Friedman talked about recording for Decca under Solti. He and others in the orchestra felt that the recordings got worse over time. Complaints to Solti was met with "It'll get better" By the time the digital recordings came about, some things like the Mahler were unbearable. My feeling is that Decca tended to exaggerate Solti's aggressive tendencies and makes the CSO sound even more aggressive than they sound in concert.

[@Mooseman327]

So true. In my opinion, the problem was "too many microphones." With the advent of first, multi-track recording and, then, digital, some classical engineers went overboard and tried to mic everything. The idea was that they, the engineers, would find the proper balances in the mixing but that did not happen. They lost the natural mix that the musicians themselves achieved in their own "negotiation" with the room they were in. You don't need mics right in front of the trumpets and the trombones and behind the French horns. This close miking of everything gave the recordings their harsh sound. Compare the early Reiner recordings using just two microphones to capture the "Reiner Sound." So much better then. A clear case of "less is more" and "let the musicians find the right balances, not the engineers."

[@alanmillsaps2810]

@@Mooseman327 "Too many microphones" is painting with too broad a brush. Many factors influence the sound of a recording and the number of mikes is only one of them. I've heard plenty of recordings made by many different recording companies that were aggressively and unpleasantly multi-miked, but Decca was never minimalist in this regard and they produced many gorgeous sounding recordings in the venues I mentioned above, as did Philips in the Concertgebouw. Nor did all of Reiner's early stereo recordings use just two mikes, many of them used at least three. I've heard too many great, mediocre and bad sounding recordings, all of them using various combinations of microphones, to point the finger at one isolated recording practice.

[@giveall9695]

Decca recently announced the "Europe" box set, so the Vienna we got covered :) I wonder whether I should preorder it.

[@davidross5338]

I have very fond memories of the Beethoven Concerto with Kyung Wha Chung and Solti that was extraordinary - in the slow movement I actually had tears in my eyes, it was so tender, even though I had, of course, heard a lot of performances, and knew it inside out. It was surprising for me to hear such an emotional performance conducted by Solti, most of Chung's best performances I knew from records accompanied by Previn.

[@willsingourd2523]

Yet another most excellent review. Extra points for using the musical, staccato word, "peripatetic"!

[@geoffharris9396]

Yeah, he made a pass at Kiri Te Kanawa too. Knocked on her hotel room in his dressing gown and tried to persuade her to let him in, but alas, she politely sent him packing ! He once poked himself in the eye with his baton much to the amusement of the LPO. Such was his flamboyant conducting style, the stick once ended up in the lap of the Horn section. According to the Decca recording producer, the late John Culshaw, he was much liked and Decca and Solti enjoyed 31 Grammy awards for their work together...

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Grammy awards mean nothing. Chicago had a lock on NARAS and for a couple of decades his win was automatic.

[@HassoBenSoba]

How well I remember my older brother (Spring of '68) bringing home his new set of the Solti Mahler 2nd (LSO) and the THRILL of that huge Tam-Tam crash (with awesome low bells) on the chorus' final cadence; we re-played it again and again. I agree that the sonics/balances are a little squirrel-y...but that was London during that period; even his CSO Mahler 5 and 6 from 1970 have some crazy balance manipulation going on, with the brass suddenly leaping out at you at the big moments, and a distant, rather feeble sound to the strings at other times. I also recall that first-time LP experience with Solti's Mahler 1 (LSO); it was the first time we had ever heard the work, and the LSO'S Trombones are so loud during the final chorale, we didn't realize that the trumpets were playing the same thing an octave higher. My next purchase was Ancerl on the Crossroads label ("hey, there's trumpets playing that chorale, too!"). Fueled by Solti's 1st and 2nd, I enthusiastically bought his Mahler 3rd, but was totally turned off by the interpretation (your description is spot-on) AND the funky, diffuse sonics. The LP set didn't last long in the collection. LR

[@duvidl]

It may be heresy to say so, but I prefer the younger Solti's pre-Chicago recordings, with some exceptions, to the repeat recordings he made in Chicago. No question about the CSO's greatness, but I liked the more freewheeling impetuosity (Solti's best characteristic) to the more conventional approach he adopted in Chicago. Some examples: Mahler 1, 2 and 9 with LSO, Mahler 4 with Concertgebouw, Bruckner 7 and 8 with Vienna Phil, Wagner Ring with Vienna Phil. and many more.

[@gregnyquist7714]

I prefer earlier Solti as well. Even in his Chicago period, I tend to prefer some of the earlier stuff, like his Mahler 5 and 8. He seemed to have gotten a bit staid and domesticated during the seventies, particularly when in Chicago. The best of his later stuff tends to be outside of Chicago, like the Elgar London Phil stuff, where he seemed to be able to tap into his older self.

[@ThreadBomb]

That Vienna Bruckner 8 is a lot of fun! The same team also recorded some good Beethoven around the same time.

[@davidaiken1061]

Many thanks for your review of the Solti/London box, which I had been looking forward to. No disagreements with your positive reviews of the Mahler 1, 2 and 9, Elgar, Bartok, and Kodaly, all of which I have enjoyed over the years. I am inclined to disagree a bit over Solti's Haydn. The earlier issues in his London Symphony traversal are forgettable--rigid and insensitive. But later on in the cycle his interpretations mellowed considerably; his coupling of 93 & 99 are both genial and sparkling (worthy of the rosette the Penguin Guide gave it), and his coupling of 97 & 98, which I believe were the lastin the series, are wholly delightful--clear, vibrant and light-hearted. I'd also like to mention that Solti gave us, in Chicago, two splendid Haydn oratorios very late in his career. Both are live performance, as I recall. The Creation is far superior to his earlier version; full of vigor with incisive rhythms and light textures. Even finer is his late recording of the Seasons, which I have to number among the very finest ever recorded. Great solo and choral singing, and Solti really enters into the spirit of the piece. Haydn's Seasons can drag on way too long in a dull performance; but under Solti's direction the tension never sags and the joy never ebbs away.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I stand by my guns regarding the"meh" London symphonies, although I take your point that they aren't all equally uninteresting. However, I agree fully regarding the oratorios. I wish they were widely available separately apart from the big Chicago box at a decent price (I saw the Seasons hanging out on Amazon for about $35).

[@robertkunath1854]

I may well have missed something when I listened back in the early 1980s, but I am a huge fan of Haydn's "The Creation," and I was excited at the prospect of hearing Solti's. To be honest, in a low, vulgar way, I was looking forward to hearing the Chicago brass blow the daylights out of those famous choruses, and I was startled at how recessed the brass was (note: this was back in the days of LPs, so I can't speak to the CD sound)). I wonder if, in classical works, Solti was aware of his reputation for high-powered intensity and consciously held back in order to confound the critics. If so, what a pity: it might not have been echt Haydn, but it would have been a jaw-dropper. I was fortunate enough to hear one of Solti's last concerts in Chicago, the Shostakovich 15th, and I thought it was done extremely well. I'd have been interested to hear his Sibelius: the mighty Finn can stand up to some rough handling, and, gosh, what a CSO/Solti Sibelius 5th might have been!

[@leslieackerman4189]

The Chista Ludwig snippet was hilarious.😂

[@bradwilkins9347]

The Chicago Bartok remakes weren’t all “glassy.” The Miraculous Mandarin and Music for Strings, Percussion, & Celesta were recorded later after Decca/London worked out the kinks. I always enjoyed those performances, but I’ve never compared the London versions. My box just arrived so I am anxious to hear. Also interesting is that the Enigma in the box is actually with Chicago. I guess they decided to keep the Elgar together (or 36 CDs fit better in the Decca proprietary box). Nielsen and Sibelius? He was just getting into Shostakovich when he passed away. Could have been interesting but I don’t remember the Shostakovich being all that memorable.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

None of them sound better than the London stereo recordings.

[@bradwilkins9347]

@@hmhparis1904 Funny story. My high school band director cancelled Wednesday night rehearsal because Solti and the CSO were in town (it may be the only time he cancelled in his 40+ years). They played the 8th and he was blown away by the brass in that performance. He couldn’t stop talking about it. I bought the recording and was underwhelmed. It didn’t have the feeling of utter terror that I get from Haitink. That being said, I always wished I got a chance to see Solti and the CSO brass live.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@bradwilkins9347 Yes, that 8th is nothing special.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@pablov1973 Um, no it isn't. They made some great recordings, and some lousy ones, just like everyone else.

[@ericnagamine7742]

@@bradwilkins9347 The recordings exaggerate Solti's aggressiveness. The orchestra in Orchestra Hall could sound subtle as well as powerful.

[@barryguerrero7652]

They really should do a 'Best of Solti Mahler' box. For me, that would be all the L.S.O. ones for M1-3 and M9, plus his Concertgebouw M4. That would make for a half-way decent Mahler set - especially if they included the "DLvdE", where Gordon Peters played Fred Beckman's personal dining room Wuhan chau gong (Fred was the first to import Wuhans into the U.S., after Nixon's trade agreement with China).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Not the 3rd. They were both bad. I'm not a fan of the Concertgebouw 4th either.

[@barryguerrero7652]

Yep. Both M3 recordings are pretty dreadful, but the C.S.O. one strikes me as being worse. I suppose his C.S.O. M4 is technically better than the Concertgebouw one, but I find stiff and cold. I'm not a Te Kanawa fan, but I think she was put to better use on the Ozawa/B.S.O. M4.

[@murraylow4523]

Factual question, Dave. As you got me keeping on listening to Lutoslawski over the last week I noticed that Symphony number 3 is dedicated to Georg Solti and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra. Maybe this worked, maybe it didn’t - the rather aggressive Beethoven 5 motif in the might seem to be designed for them! - but did Solti actually get to record it?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Not that I'm aware of.

[@johnwright7557]

As far as I know, he didn’t either. However, Barenboim made a very respectable one with Chicago for Teldec-now Warner. I like it better than Salonen’s, but think Wit on Naxos and now especially Lintu on a marvelous Ondine disc are the ones I go to first.

[@murraylow4523]

@@johnwright7557 thank you John (and Dave). Goodness, what a time we live in, that must make at least 6 or 7 recordings already of a “difficult” and still relatively recent work!

[@murraylow4523]

@@johnwright7557 Actually John and Dave I checked Wikipedia and there are apparently 9 recordings of this. Pretty remarkable. Maybe Solti just didn’t like it that much?Strange as it clearly has some very hyper-Bartokthings going on in it….

[@CortJohnson]

For all the bashing Solti comes out well in the end - nice!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Surprise!

[@CortJohnson]

@@DavesClassicalGuide just listened to his Haydn symphonies. Really enjoyed them! Great sound, fleet of foot st times and quite lyrical at times as well. I think he enjoyed himself!

[@williamwhittle216]

You have on my sweatshirt!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Your taste is exquisite.

[@EddieJazzFan]

Great review. The weakest stuff in the box seems to be the Mozart. But the Elgar Enigma Var. are super.... BTW, I checked your channel looking for the Fricsay DG boxes. Did you review them?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

They predate my KZbin channel. They are on ClassicsToday, but perhaps I should give them a shot.

[@cartologist]

Getting the physical Fricsay DG box is extremely difficult, as it was released in 2014 and is long out of print. I bought the FLAC version (3 vols.) from Presto. It comes with PDFs of the booklet. Then, a month ago, a copy of the box popped up for sale, and I couldn’t resist. Not very many OOP box sets are available in FLAC format, but more of them are available on streaming services.

[@musiconrecord6724]

@@DavesClassicalGuide I wish you would - just to hear your thoughts. I have both and they are amongst the most essential items in my collection, especially the orchestral box.

[@MarauderOSU]

Here's an excerpt from Beverly Sills' autobiography: "Georg was glad to see me-a little too glad. He said he wanted to hear my arias in German, and when I stood next to him at the piano, he made a pass at me. In putting him off, I accidentally slammed the piano lid on his fingers. I ran out of the opera house and kept going. When I got back to the Frankfurterhof, I realized I didn't have neough money to fly home. I did, however, have a letter of introduction from the Semons to Rudolf Hartmann, the head of the Munich Opera."

[@pauldrapiewski6761]

Solti was a big figure in my early classical life in the late 60s and 70s. He could do no wrong - tho I learned better later. When he was good he was incredible - wonderful Beethoven, Bartok for example, as David points out. Mahler: I was introduced to Mahler with that big shiny silver box with the Coca Cola like printing on the cover. I agree most of his London recordings have worn very well. Wonderful 1st, and where have you heard more excitement and more elegance than in the Resurrection? But except for an exceptional and truly beautiful performance of Part II, with absolutely ideal soloists, in #8, (The Veni Creator is "all hat and no cattle" as they say), his Chicago Mahler is awful. I realized this after I listened to Haitink, Bernstein and others and realized what was missing. I get highly irritated by the heaps of praise still trumpeted on 5 6 and 7 which to me are as boring and unidiomatic as readings of Mahler can be. He did not understand this music at all. It is all washed over. So a very uneven and mixed bad with Solti - he was a great conductor but don't assume that he is the be all and end all of classical music!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I largely agree with that assessment, although I like his middle Mahler from Chicago--5 and 6 at least--better than you do. The remakes were generally dreadful, but that first 5 is very exciting, as is the Sixth. Seven is kind of brainless, but fun in places.

[@pauldrapiewski6761]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for the reply! P.S. Vanska is ending his "controversial" (!) stint here in Minnesota with the 8th in June, CoVid permitting. For his successor, keeping my fingers crossed for Dima Slobodeniouk!

[@bendingcaesar65]

David, very surprised to hear you say you don't like Solti's Night on Bald Mountain. I always thought it was the most powerful performance I've ever heard.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Then you need to hear more!

[@bendingcaesar65]

@@DavesClassicalGuide What would you recommend?

[@kennirobertokristianto8550]

@@bendingcaesar65 I'm gonna pick Fournet/Concertgebouw on Decca. You should listen on that one!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@bendingcaesar65 Slatkin/St. Louis on Vox.

[@markfarrington5183]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Agree ! The Svetlanov/USSR BALD MT. is a roller coaster ride - not "pretty" but POWERFUL. Could you do an Evgeny Svetlanov survey or surveys, sometime?

[@jaykauffman4775]

Solti ran into quite a bit of anti-semitism during his Covent Garden period