Review - Tunnels and Trolls

[@SebastienlovesCookieswirlc]

Still fondly remember the "take that you fiend" spell. Thanks for the review, much appreciated.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Thank-you! I think a lot of games could learn something from T&T's spell names ;)

[@hugadarn]

This is one of the best reviews of Tunnels and Trolls that I've heard. Comprehensive, specific and fair. Thanks.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Thank-you!

[@WizardOfAtlantis]

Great review. Thorough and precise. Great audio and visual quality, and man, do I love the art on those old covers! Truly the bones that indie OSR games gnaw on.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Thank-you!

[@ArcaneCowboy]

Liz Danforth's art was a big reason I bought these back in the day.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

It was evocative :)

[@stevebruns1833]

Great review, really enjoyed it. A couple of points I'd like to add: To expand on something you said in the video: T&T's mass combat system--It Is Genius! In a marvelously simple way, it allows characters of vastly different levels and types to fight together easily and effectively. For example you can have a party with a 5th level giant, a couple of 3rd level humans, and a 1st level pixie--and they can fight together because everyone's efforts are pooled into one big "our side in combat" roll. In other game-systems, the GM either has to shoehorn "like" opponents together or allow power mismatches to kill off the weaker party members. Not so in T&T. Can't say that about any other game that I can think of. Another point (and a reason T&T mass combat works) is that the losing side gets to choose who takes the damage. So in the example above, the giant might soak up all the damage so the pixie isn't wiped off the map. A simple, elegant solution. A not-so-positive aspect of T&T is the skill and saving roll system--overly fiddly and math-intensive if you ask me. Not sure why they didn't just go with an exact analog of the combat system, with characters rolling against a Difficulty Number. A very incongruous part of T&T (but easily home-brewed out.) Also, the skill system was a missed opportunity to flesh out the skimpy character types. While I have no love for "character class" games (much preferring skill-based systems) you can't build a competent thief (?!?), sailor, bard, cleric, etc. in T&T. Your choices are fighter, wizard, or hybrid warrior-wizard. ("Rogues" is terribly misleading. They're hybrids, not thieves.) However, like you, I am enormously fond of the game. It's simple, fun, and full of humor. It has great solo support. If anyone is interested in getting a taste of T&T, there is a free phone app that adapts several of the old solo adventures. It works well enough that I can recommend it as an introduction to T&T. After you've played that for a bit, level up to the paper-and-pencil version. My recommendation would be Deluxe T&T (from the recent Kickstarter, now available from Flying Buffalo.) It's handsomely illustrated, has the clearest version of the rules, and contains lots of supplemental resources. A highly underrated gem from the early days of RPG gaming.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Good points :) On the app front - if it's the same one I've played, it's not supported anymore, and might not even run on certain devices/OS versions. If it's a different one - post a link! T&T on the phone makes train journeys fly by :)

[@SebastienlovesCookieswirlc]

Aaah, I'll have my dinner first then listen to the video, but I know I am going to love it.

[@dennfett]

Cheers for this, your video has cleared a couple of things up for me. I recently re discovered T&T and found some of the solo games at my mums from the 80's and downloaded some free stuff off DrivethruRPG.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

I'm glad you found it useful :)

[@mectrom]

Tunnels & Troll one of the oldschool rpg I never got around to play.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

It still exists - still time to give it a go!

[@SimonAshworthWood]

I love Tunnels & Trolls solo adventures! :D My cousin & I started on them before playing D&D together. :D

[@WillyMuffinUK]

@@SimonAshworthWood I came a bit late to T&T - the Corgi books are the first I owned, mid-80s. Playing through City of Terrors during downtime at the dorm at one RPG convention worked off a bit of adrenalin built up from DMing tournaments all day!

[@aaronwalters1569]

It was the first I ever played, at age 10

[@dungeondumbo]

Had a ton of fun with Tunnels & Trolls back in the day!

[@WillyMuffinUK]

It certainly is a good ton or two 🙂

[@midshipman8654]

this is a very informative and well done video. Kudos for giving me the lowdown on this system and its history.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Thank-you - I'm glad you found it useful :)

[@dmforsyth]

Great explanation, Ian. Thank you. Question for one and all: any recommendations of a favourite edition? One thing that's always scared me off T&T is the sheer number of editions out there. If one is generally accepted as superior, I'd like to start there. As Champions showed us, later editions are not always better.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

The thing with T&T - there's not a huge difference between editions. Most of it is about presentation, and expanding options, rather than drastic rule changes. The current edition - 8th "Deluxe T&T" - gives you everything you could need, rules-wise. You can absolutely use it to play any of the older adventures. My personal preference is the Corgi version of 5th, but I think that's more about nostalgia than anything to do with the content. What I would finish with is... avoid 6th. There are very good reasons that it's not mentioned at all in the video.

[@dmforsyth]

@@WillyMuffinUK ahhh. Thank you for that, Ian. So 6e T&T is like 4e D&D. That'd good to know. I believe I have a set of 7th edition rules on my shelf somewhere. Maybe I'll pull them out and give them a re-read. Thanks for the inspiration.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

@@dmforsyth Sort of... If 4E had been pushed out by someone other than WotC who didn't really care about things like, oh, trademarks, IP, all that... It's a whole kettle of worms!

[@ScottMalthouse]

I tend to mash rules together. Generally from 5th edition up the rules are very similar. Even before they are, but you'll find missile rules to be completely different

[@dmforsyth]

@@ScottMalthouse Good to know, Scott. Thanks.

[@machfront]

Bizarrely, I finally came in contact with T&T years after it had been made fun of, and after FBI/Blade had publications so I was buying, years later, an “old” Corgi iteration from 1986 in late 1990 here in the States. I’m so glad it worked out and so glad I did!

[@WillyMuffinUK]

I've only recently came to know, via the Random Encounter Show's very amenable host - great channel, look it up if you haven't - that the Corgi books were also kicking around the US. Something to do with an agreement between Corgi and Flying Buffalo that FB would be sent some stock of the Corgi books. RPG history is a uniquely tangled subject!

[@SimonAshworthWood]

Yeah, Tunnels & Trolls! :D Love it! :D

[@RodBatten]

I'm really enjoying your overviews of roleplaying games. I have many of these games in my library but it has only been possible to get my gaming buddies interested in a handful, usually some version of D&D or, if I'm lucky, WFRP1/2.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Yeah, I have a similar issue with some of the more obxcure ones. Fortunately, over time, I've managed to gather a few that'll give anything a go.

[@machfront]

Great overview! Though you entirely missed the 1st UK edition (the black spiral art rulebook from early 1977). I’m a Yank and know this. Heheh! Cheers to ya all!

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Heh - yeah, I skipped over that a bit. Mainly because they were so difficult to find - I've never seen copies. There were two UK editions that predated Corgi - Strategy Games Ltd. and Chris Harvey Games. Most of us in the UK discovered the game through the Corgi editions, when Corgi picked it up after Fighting Fantasy had really kicked in the popularity of solo game books. So yes, omitted, but half by design, half by... some level of apathy towards obscure editions that I felt would have muddied the narrative.

[@archivis]

I too loe love Tunnels and Trolls. Grabbed the kickstarter. :)

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Good stuff! You helped keep a legend alive 🙂

[@jamesrickel3814]

Love the reviews. I have been on a GDW shopping spree lately.

[@whangbar]

Voluminous and complex is not always better. T&T was the second game system (after B/X) that my friends and I played. We liked it a lot and found it a little strange after studying D&D (which, admittedly, extended to reading a lot of other non-game books in order to develop our own materials--I developed a love of history and reading in general thanks to Gary, to be honest). In southern California in the 80s, we just couldn't find enough T&T to sustain us. I think we would have played it a lot more if we had.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Do you mean in terms of published material?

[@whangbar]

@@WillyMuffinUK Yes, this was before Amazon and the local games store was also a comic shop. So things were pretty scanty within bicycle range . . . .

[@WillyMuffinUK]

@@whangbar I hear you. Mail order ads from White Dwarf were my saviour there.

[@whangbar]

@@WillyMuffinUK I'd have loved that. I remember seeing copies of White Dwarf. Everything from the UK seemed cool and from a different universe. But Dragon magazine dominated at the time. We also played a lot of Avalon Hill's Panzer Leader and Wizard's Quest. But aside from that, it was always B/X.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

@@whangbar A lot of it was just weird. I mean, just look at the Fiend Folio!

[@Lwilibert]

Great video. Great voice to listen to.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Thank-you :)

[@johnlach2199]

Overall, well done but Monsters! Monsters! was a stand alone game using the T&T engine vs being a solo or adventure. 8th is the French edition. Deluxe doesn't have a number

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Yes, you are right - but Monsters! Monsters! was always lumped in with T&T in my experience. That's odd with the numbers. What makes the French edition need an edition number, other than language?

[@johnlach2199]

@@WillyMuffinUK From what I understand, there were more tweeks from the edition it was translated from. Unless is it a straight reprint, every time something comes out, the rules are slightly different. There are quick rules for free rpg day and The Japanese translations and they are slightly different. Metagaming did a t&t app and the rules there are different. But it really doesn't matter much since you calculate your combat effectiveness independently of each other. Everyone can run under a different edition. Kit bashing your own from all editions is popular. I even added in GURPS magic since both are point based

[@WillyMuffinUK]

@@johnlach2199 I played that app until it stopped working. Shame, because that was fun to kill half an hour or so with.

[@oddsandexabytes]

Good review. Thanks. 😀

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Thank-you :)

[@johntoland6696]

Awesome video!

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Thank-you!

[@r.j.macready5541]

Great game, great review!

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Thank-you!

[@John-k6f9k]

I tend to like anti-elitist underdog things so I'd like to try this game.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Go for it! Monsters! Monsters! has also just been released in a new edition, too.

[@AAron-gr3jk]

I never understood people's fascination with T&T. By all accounts, it should be an "also ran" copy cat. I'm wondering if it stayed relevant because someone is copyright infringing the books and that's in the news from time to time. (?) Great stuff btw: please share more of your old school experiences.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

I think it's more that the guys at Flying Buffalo have been tenacious. I don't think the infringing books have had much of an impact - they were there for a bit, now they are largely forgotten. It was also very much simpler than D&D from the start, and handles solo play much, much better. Try a T&T solo and compare it to TSR's solo modules - or even RuneQuest's SoloQuest books (which I do like). Anyway, it has a unique style and play, so although on the surface it looks like a copy cat, it isn't. It may have been cashing in on the rising popularity of role-playing when it was originally published, but it is its own thing.

[@johnlach2199]

T&T was the first game written as an RPG vs D&D where it was still a tactical miniatures game you can role play with. Pretty much every place that T&T got to first, it out sold D&D. Only after the Steam Tunnel incident and all that free publicity did D&D run away with sales. It was ahead of its time with rules light, quick combat and role playing hooks built in.

[@richmcgee434]

Nuts. It's all about the solo play adventures. Not another TTRPG in the world has as many of the things as T&T and I dare say there never will be. Next closest TTRPG might be The Fantasy Trip if you look at all the 3rd party adventures out there, and it's still a distant second. With home computing being so primitive back when T&T came out it was along time till PC and console gaming offered a clearly superior alternative for lone players. The "adventure book" genre (ie the Choose Your Own Adventure series and its many, many imitators) gave some competition but the early stuff in that genre was solidly aimed at a kiddie market. Took a while till things like Fighting Fantasy or Lone Wolf cropped up, and their game mechanics never approached even the flyweight engine that T&T runs on. T&T found a niche as "that solo RPG" in the narrow window of time where you could have made that work, and they've clung to it ever since. It's kept them afloat, but it sure hasn't made them their fortunes. Precious little fame, either. Ask most millennial or Gen Z gamers if they've heard of Flying Buffalo or T&T and you get blank looks. Even fifty-somethings in my peer group are frequently surprised to hear the company is still afloat, assuming they remember them at all.

[@user-wr4uz8pg7m]

Hi. Have you played the game? If not then your confusion is understandable. The review here did an excellent job explaining the appeal and sustained enjoyment by the fans of Tunnels and Trolls. Did you not find the explanation compelling? Have a nice day.

[@mightymickey8879]

I remember playing this game at a convention with the creator. Absolutely dreadful system. The combat of dice pool against dice pool doesn’t work at all. For example, we had a troll on our team who literally had like over +100 to his 3d6 dice roll compared to my warriors like +10.

[@WillyMuffinUK]

Well, it works, demonstrably because quite a fair few people play it. I think what you mean is "isn't balanced". Which isn't something an RPG necessarily needs. Did you have fun playing it, or did the asymmetry put you off?