Reviews: Karajan's Complete DG Legacy (1) The 60s

[@TichmanClassCologne]

I'm a professional musician and have just come across your channel. YOU ARE A DELIGHT! Of course, I don't always agree with you, but that's part of the fun!

[@eisenaechery7591]

Already looking forward to the other Karajan boxes to come. The Choral Box Review was so brilliant and hilarious, I laughed so much

[@ewmbr1164]

A little vignette to Karajan's Apollon Musagete: I think it was 1969. I attended a Berlin Phil Concert with my parents at the Amsterdam Concertgebouw during the Holland Festival that summer. Other than Stravinsky, the program featured Strauss' Heldenleben. One of the many critics in the hall that night published his review the next morning, beginning thus (I paraphrase from memory): "The program consisted of two works, Stravinsky's 'Apollon Musagete' and Strauss' 'Heldenleben'. One would think that this would be rather short, and wonder whether a third piece might be in order for the first half of the evening. Yet the way in which the Maestro descended the famous stairs toward the podium, stopping every few steps to elegantly bow to the adoring audience to his right and to his left, more than made up for any missing musical performance..." A memorable performance it was, indeed...

[@jorgereynosopholenz2865]

In 1965, Stravinsky reviewed and compared various recordings ot the Rite (Hi Fi Stereo Review, Feb. 65). About Karajan, he wrote: "..the performance [is] too polished, a pet savage rather than a real one...I doubt whether The Rite can be satisfactory performed in terms of Herr von Karajan's traditions. I do not mean to imply that he is out of his depths, however, but rather that he is in my shallows...There are simply no regions for soul-searching in The Rite of Spring."

[@JackBurttrumpetstuff]

I’ve listened to the 60s Rite, and it is surprisingly aggressive, the beauty is in the ‘lyrical’ section…

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I find it remarkably tame, actually.

[@JackBurttrumpetstuff]

I think Stravinsky heard that Karajan made the mistake of thinking that the Rite was a natural extension of European musical development, and still a part of the tradition which included the Firebird, Rimsky, and Tchaikovsky before that, rather than a break from musical tradition. Or as Dave would say, Karajan thought it could take ‘the Treatment…” My impression is the Karajan eventually took that criticism to heart. His second recording of the Rite (done well after Stravinsky’s death) is much better. The timpani, especially, are very aggressive.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@JackBurttrumpetstuff It's still missing some of the percussion parts.

[@jorgereynosopholenz2865]

@@JackBurttrumpetstuff By 1965, aided by Robert Craft and reacting againgst Adorno´s influence on the young composers, Stravinsky was trying to edit his own older age vision about his legacy. It´s interesting to read Sytavinsky´s opinions about Boulez (as conductor), Karajan, Bernstein (as conductor) and the Russian-Soviet interpreters.

[@chutton988]

A comment about Eschenbach. At 26:25 you come across him playing the Beethoven 1st piano concerto. Looking at his discography, he did the 3rd and the 5th as well, all three with different orchestras. I wonder if he was going for a cycle with five different orchestras, analogous to Kubelik’s symphony cycle with different orchestras? I found it an interesting “might have been” to ponder last night. I also happened to notice that three of Dave’s favorite composers all start with the letter “H:” Handel, Haydn, Hindemith! The videos sure are enjoyable, Dave, thanks! -Charles

[@ronaldpage9627]

🎉❤😂 So much info with wit and an interesting history. Thanks again for an Awesome series always something to learn. Very helpful and authorative reviews. Keep up the Fantastic work you do. Thanks again UTube for your Awesome programs.

[@mcgjohn22]

very informative on this set. Thanks very much. Its really too bad DG never had the sound of EMI or Decca recordings.

[@robertdandre94101]

I paid myself several years ago the complete edition of karajan recordings on dgg (Japanese edition) high price but what a legacy (240 cd) everything is there ....... and if I had to choose what i like the most....the parisian symphonies of haydn.....and parsifal

[@markgibson6654]

I once owned a 1960s Karajan/Berlin Brahms 3rd and it was wonderful. Lyrical and urgent, great tempos and structural sense with great high points, beautiful sound and he did the exposition repeat in the 1st movement which I prefer.

[@therealdealblues]

Looking forward to these. They were indeed originally Korean but DG did release all of them domestically here in the USA before releasing the monster box.

[@shostakovich343]

I do love Karajan's Circus Polka. It's nice and lumpish, with a good, thumping bass drum. When the trumpets come in at the end shrieking the Marche Militaire it sound so wrong and so good at the same time.

[@robkeeleycomposer]

I turn to the Circus Polka when I’m feeling low. It always cheers me up. Profound music masquerading as trivial perhaps?

[@richardf2209]

Thanks Dave for doing these Karajan boxes. I bought them when they came out, but was very disappointed with their sound. As you said DG was not known for superior sonics, and their "Original-Image Bit-Processing" marketing blather signified nothing. I'm glad to see that the discs/performances that I listened to sort of go along with your suggestions; the ones I didn't like, I bailed on, and those I did, the light and sonorous ones, I kept in my rotation. I will have to visit his Sibelius as I so far haven't. I always learn much when watching your channel, and your wit, humor, and incisive, insightful dialogue and vocabulary keep me coming back. Thank you for your, time, effort and musical intellect, but the way you seem to enjoy sharing looks like its gratifying in and of itself.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Thank you. It is gratifying. Regarding the sonics, I will say that the Karajan Gold edition really did fix the sound on many of his original digital recordings--I understand because they didn't have to put up with his own personal, hearing-impaired concept of high fidelity.

[@matthewweflen]

As a Sibelius nut, I have heard recordings that equal the 4-6 in the 60s box (Blomstedt/SF would be my pick). But no one has ever touched that 7th. It's cosmic and majestic in a way no other recording has matched.

[@dmntuba]

I also remember from college days that in the music library we had a book called something like, "Solti VS. HVK." The entire book- chapter thru chapter was about the rivalry between Solti and HVK. I did read it, but don't remember much except at the end Solti won. May have been written and/or published by DECCA 🤣

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

There was a NYT article about the Solti vs. Karajan Ring cycles--it said that "both were necessary," ultimately.

[@mehmeh217]

Could you please do a video on 10 great line-guy conductors?

[@davidaiken1061]

Thanks for this fair and balanced assessment of Karajan in the 1960's. I am an ambivalent admirer of Karajan. I love that "sheen," and let myself be seduced by it even when I know how much of guilty pleasure it really is. Especially in works like the Handel Concerti Grossi or Mozart Divertimenti (which I actually enjoy very much). Stravinsky is another story. Why he attempted that composer I will never know. Ditto Bach Brandenburgs. In any case, this is bodes to be another fun series, and I look forward to Karajan in the Seventies, from which decade hails his finest Beethoven cycle (for me), his great Bruckner and Tchaikovsky cycles, and much else of interest.

[@matthewweflen]

I've always found the 70s set to be my sweet spot as well. His best Beethoven, his best Tchaikovsky, most of Bruckner, good Mendelssohn and Schumann cycles, some great Strauss, the Vienna School albums, and some pretty good Mahler, to boot. On the other hand it has what I consider the worst thing I've ever heard, Carl Orff's De Temporum Fine Comoedia. But that's one disc out of 82.

[@davidaiken1061]

@@matthewweflen Yes, I do think HvK was at the height of his powers in the 70's. That doesn't mean the engineers were always doing their best. The sound was sometimes harsh and only got worse when DG went digital. remasterings have helped enormously. Glad you mentioned Mendelssohn and Schumann; both cycles are very distinguished. Karajan makes a better case for Mendelssohn's "Lobgesang" then any other that I have heard. Some of his last, digital recordings were also very fine--Bruckner 7 and 8 with Vienna, and that famous live Mahler 9.

[@matthewweflen]

@@davidaiken1061 I just listened to the digital VPO Bruckner 7 last night - it is transcendent!

[@davidaiken1061]

@@matthewweflen Delighted to hear it, Matthew. Whatever else one might think of Karajan's legacy, he was undoubtedly a great Brucknerian.

[@dmntuba]

When I was in college the HVK Brandenburg album was a popular "party" album, and boy did we use it🥳

[@RichardGreen422]

I learned Brahms 4 from the Munch/Boston recording, which may still be my favorite. But when I first heard the Karajan 60s version, I was just blown away by the playing, particularly in the last movement.

[@nihilistlemon1995]

@@kinkycadete225 but a lot of recording equals it

[@murraylow4523]

Maybe but it has that annoying scherzo - it’s excellent but overrated

[@markfarrington5183]

@@nihilistlemon1995 ...Especially Jochum/Berlin 1953 (DG) and van Beinum/Concertgebouworkest 1958 (Philips).

[@kinkycadete225]

HvK’s DG recording of Roussel’s 4th and Dvorak’s 8th from the 50s/60s are excellent

[@kinkycadete225]

Wait… The Roussel is actually on EMI. Still phenomenal

[@mariodelahuerga3614]

Thanks for reviewing the 60's box Dave. Looking forward to your review of the 70's Karajan box which I think has better performances and recording sound. Had to laugh when you mention Karajan's Bach - He never should have attempted Bach!

[@bostonviewer5430]

I have both the 60's and 70's Karajan boxes and rarely do I open them! Why? The packaging is so frustrating with the 4 inner caverns of CDs that are not impossible but very inconvenient to find what one might be looking for. Nothing on the spines and those boxes of frustration within the box are enough to make me avoid the whole thing. I recently re-watch your Brahms Symphony cycle and realized I'd never heard the Karajan 70s cycle so I got out "THE BOX" and remember why I almost never open it. You are right, Dave, the 70's Brahms was worth my attention. RCA/Sony really did know right from the start how to make the big boxes. Neatly ordered with CD numbers and information on the spines with good books including Alpha Composer indexes and those boxes don't drop off and hit you on the foot if you aren't careful. Still there is much to enjoy in both of the Karajan boxes... if you want to deal with the frustration of the box itself!

[@williamwhittle216]

My guilty pleasure: Karajan conducting Handel's Concerti Grossi,Op.6 Forgive me Dave for I havc sinned.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Not at all. As I said, the playing is gorgeous.

[@daniellibin5254]

Not guilty at all! These recordings are resplendent!

[@matthewweflen]

Those concerti are by far the best Baroque music in the set. You can actually hear the harpsichord, for one thing.

[@flowsouth8496]

Karajan's first Rite of Spring is interesting because while unidiomatic it shows that the BPO used to cultivate a distinct sound. "Some believe they really sort of set a new standard for Sibelius playing. I think they kind of did, actually". Wow, that is high praise. The first movement of the sixth Brandenburg Concerto sounds like the musical version of melted chocolate, music without any kind of texture. I also think the Bartok recordings really are quite good, surprisingly good. I agree that this recording doesn't have the right sound for Scheherazade, but when the strings come in at the climax of the third movement... Oh my.

[@bwpm1467]

I honestly think his 80s Beethoven 9th is his best. And his 80s Beethoven Eroica, too.

[@CortJohnson]

This was quite enlightening as I completely turned away from Karajan after hearing his Beethoven. But he’s clearly done quite well in many works. Nice!

[@hendriphile]

“The Bach Brandenburg Concerti: Come on, are you kidding?” “The Grosse Fuge: NO NO NO NO NO!” Hearing these capsule summaries is a guilty pleasure!

[@petterw5318]

This is going to be fun! I you check how Karajan recorded stuff, specially in the 1970s and 1980s, it's all bits and pieces. He could record a single work in three different sessions with enormous gaps (months and even years), or even record bits during one day for different recording companies. I guessed he could do that because his style never changed much over the years.

[@dr2549]

I find it a bit ironic, that the Karajan recording heritage was so precious and costy and totally controlled by him at its time - all "Golden Editions" and "Diamond Renditions" - but are now so redundant and all over the place and cheap as sand.

[@TheVaughan5]

There’s no doubt that Karajan’s best performances were roughly from the mid 50’s to early 70’s. After this time as we know, he became obsessed with refinement at the expense of passion in his conducting technique.

[@shostakovich343]

There is some truth to that statement -- certainly the 1970s recordings sound the most artificial -- but let's not forget that "late Karajan" could be revelarory, in Strauss and Bruckner for example. He made great, good, mediocre, and terrible recordings during every decade. You just have to know which ones are the best.

[@TheVaughan5]

@@shostakovich343 Yes, I wasn’t actually suggesting that all his later recordings were inferior just that overall he was better in the early days. I particularly like his 60’s recordings with the VPO. and also the Philharmonia though they suffer from inferior but not bad, recording quality

[@stephenmarmer543]

When it comes to conductors and their complete recordings I would not choose HvK in my top group. Mine would be Szell, Klemperer, Ormandy, Markevich, Joachim, Mackarras, then Bernstein and Munch. These huge mega boxes seem to be a way the labels are getting rid of inventory.

[@JackBurttrumpetstuff]

Thanks Dave! I own the 60s and 70s boxes… I think you present a fair and reasonable view of one big pile of discs!

[@michelangelomulieri5134]

Karajan is a good conductor with late romantic and early XXth century music only

[@asheko]

Dear Mr. Hurwitz ! You´ve mentioned, that the Berlin Philharmonics ( under HvK ) have been surpassed by other orchestras. Who are these ?. Who are currently the best orchestras ( in terms of virtuosity ) ?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I've discussed this many times and I'm sorry but I just can't do it again now.

[@matthewweflen]

Let me say from the outset that I am an HVK/BPO fan. So "surpassed" is probably not a place I would land. But in terms of technical virtuosity, these are the orchestra/conductor combos I would say are in the same ballpark: Chailly/Gewandhausorchester Leipzig (their Brahms recordings are superb, as is their Beethoven) Blomstedt/San Francisco Symphony (their Sibelius is tough to beat) Michael Sanderling/Dresdner Philharmonie (*everyone* needs to hear their Shosty cycle) Gardiner/Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique (classic Beethoven cycle) Theodore Kuchar/Janacek Philharmonic (their Nielsen!) It is of course kind of a silly notion, because very few people have listened to enough recordings of everything to make such claims, and said claims are inherently based on personal preference. But for my money, if I get a recording from these orchestras, I am basically guaranteed a top flight experience, both technically and in terms of interpretation, with only minimal exceptions. Which is how I feel about HVK/BPO.

[@estel5335]

These Big Universal Boxes (Mozart 250, Bach 333 & Beethoven 2020) aren't anywhere on your radar to present to us, are they?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Not at the moment, but maybe I'll get there.

[@Vikingvideos50]

Thank you for this. I'll ask a dumb question. How did he learn all this music? This is the whole symphonic repertoire, plus he did opera.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Well, it's not the whole symphonic repertoire--not by a mile. There's so much duplication, and the difficulty of learning it is exaggerated. It's what he was trained to do.

[@lesgoe8908]

Fascinating. I look forward to the rest of this series. (I'd love to know the analyitcs on such a long video as this. I viewed the entire presentation in one sitting. Karajan has a lot of baggage, and you are so good at dealing with baggage. So there's a real entertainment value to go along with the music criticism -- but what percentage of the 2.8K viewers up to now watched the whole thing?)

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I have no idea.

[@tterrace]

It's a good thing to have for people who are interested, and those who aren't don't have watch the whole thing or any of it. It's a resource, not a ratings war.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@tterrace Very true, but I do wish the people who don't watch the whole thing would just shut up and refrain from commenting. It's not fair to those who do take the time and trouble to watch.

[@raphaelfournier8273]

Karajan's 1959 Heldenleben as "heavy duty ex-nazi battle": you kill me, Herr Hurwitz ! No fun spot spared, at least in your comment, and incidentally at the expense of the divo artist. Agree on La Mer, Brahms, Sibelius symphonies, R. Strauss stuff, Bruckner's 9th, Haydn's Creation, Bartok's MSC, Honegger and lighter fare. The last three Tchaikovski symphonies do here very well. I love the sound profile of Berlin PO they display built on brass and strings. And happen to love his Haendel and Bach orchestral recordings : ok the 80s Brandenburg recording is much better, a bit like a thought experiment, as if he had taken into account the self-styled HIP perdormance practice and responded to it by romanticized Bach with a vengeance, i. e. post-romantic. As to droopy Big band Brandenburg Bach btw, A. Boult set the standard in droopiness, quite unmatched, if my memory serves me well. Thanks for the tips and the entertainment.

[@MilsteinRulez]

About the 1959 Heldenleben, I agree with much of what you state, and I never got the ending of the piece, which there sounds especially trashy. However, the one place where there is real comedy and wit is the violin solo. In my ears, it comprises the very best of concertmaster solo playing, or even of solo playing full stop, at that time. The luscious sound, the mimicking of actual language, the revelling in characteristic detail, I think is quite extraordinary. I for one never heard it played better. -- Oh yes, and I wholeheartedly agree about the Rokoko variations. Just why?

[@clea9070]

Thank you for wading through all this sh-stuff for us. Did you ever meet Karajan?

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No.

[@dmntuba]

This was interesting/fun

[@murraylow4523]

Thanks Dave. I have this box, listened all through it, and agree with all your evaluators. Doing nuanced criticism of Karajan is very important as otherwise he just becomes a pantomime devil etc etc. In Sibelius, all the Strausses, Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, and yes Bartok and Shostakovich and Honnegger he was marvellous. And very good at Beethoven and Brahms mostly. Plus as you say Haydn. The Mozart is bafflingly horrible, especially as he did some good Mozart earlier with Walter Legge. It’s also good that he did some Baroque repertoire, Respighi, etc but those brandenbergs (Berlin is there obviously) are shockingly bad- the polonaise at the end of the first concerto is unbelievably bad, but I’d never listen to it again! Looking forward to your review of the Karajan 1970s box (which has some wonderful things in it). It’s been my footrest during all the pandemic period (still is, it’s getting a bit scruffy!) and so somehow I associate it with your talks …

[@IP-zv1ih]

Apart from the Mozart mass in C minor, which is incredibly beautiful.

[@jaykauffman4775]

I think Karajan took over Berlin almost immediately after Furtwangler died

[@goodmanmusica2]

From 1955

[@jasonquinlan731]

Have to humbly disagree with you Dave with regard to the Mussorgsky/Ravel disc. I have very little Karajan in my collection as I am not a fan of his conducting but this disc is one of his best.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

OK. Have fun with it.

[@chrisdurham563]

I love this box for Ein Heldenleben, Beethoven's Pastoral, Sibelius' Violin Concerto, Sherazade, Haydn's Creation, Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto, and the Dvorak Cello Concerto. Some fabulous performances in there which I will always treasure.

[@charlescoleman5509]

I listened to the Karajan Bach Brandenburg. Sounds like a bunch of elephants stomping in a kids playground. Way too sonorous! The recording of the same music he did later in the 70s is less gloopy, but not by much.

[@jamesking7868]

The DG lps of the era did not sound good especially the piano recordings of kempff, glassy hard, brittle treble, dry bass, lacking in warmth and just bright. The orchestral recordings had the same issues but it was the piano recordings that really showed up DGs poor sound.

[@francoisjoubert6867]

Those Karajan baroque recordings are atrocious. My first Brandenburg recordings were the Pinnock DG ones. A friend then bought one of the Italian Karajan Barocco boxes. I was shocked. The Karajan reminded me of a big, beautifully car with a too small engine. Like WAY to small. And the car is lumbering up a steep hill, full of people who think that they are very important.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Well, it's kind of hard to start with a period instrument version and listen backwards, as it were, to Karajan. If you started before then, it wouldn't sound as bad (but let's face it...it's still pretty awful--just more understandable, perhaps).

[@danielhornby5581]

Not listened to the Karajan but the Pinnock was my first purchase and only. Another recording of such high quality that it’s difficult to want another.

[@mark19441944]

With karajan there is the bit of a problem that he was a nazi.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

You think?

[@corgansow6173]

Kind of perception bias when people did not bother to do a little more research. He married a half Jewish wife (if he was obviously a Nazi that was career suicide move) wasn't a particular favourite of Hitler and did not have a stellar career during the WW II as compared with Furtwangler, Bohm, Richard Strauss who also worked in Nazi Germany at that time.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@corgansow6173 Frankly, I don't think the fact that he joined the Nazi party should matter after he's dead and gone. If we "cancelled" every artist who was a bad person or who did stupid things, we'd never listen to 90% of them.

[@corgansow6173]

@@DavesClassicalGuide ditto!

[@igorgregoryvedeltomaszewsk1148]

Karl Böhm was an ardent believer in Nazism @@mark19441944. Karajan was not - he was an opportunist.