Revisiting Roald Dahl's Poetry as an Adult

[@RoughestDrafts]

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[@jeanneb6320]

I devoured most of Dahl's stuff as a kid and absolutely loved them. The fact that he didn't shy away from nasty subject matters and that he explicitly told us that adults aren't always right or trustworthy is something that I still think is worth acknowledging. Truly dislike his tendency to equate people's appearance with their character tho, not to speak of the more problematic stuff. I do however agree that it needs to be discussed, not erased.

[@misopeachy]

"dislike his tendency to equate people's appearance with their character tho" I see where your coming from but at the same time that is SO common in childrens media and even adult media. Its easily recongnizable. I'm not saying its good but its not really a Roald Dahl thing and more of a childrens book thing.

[@232mumboy]

All humans esteem those we find aesthetically pleasing higher than those we do not, ranking them as more intelligent, kinder, &c. It's called the halo effect. It does seem to maybe work in reverse, too, but we usually intake people's looks first and so that is what colors the rest of our view. This is not one of RD's flaws, this is a HUMAN flaw, and one you and I both have- a generalizing, smoothing tendency in human perception that is inherent to our neurology.

[@nm9688]

​@@232mumboy saying it's "natural to our neurology" (idk if it is or that's just something you made up) doesn't really justify leaning into that bias. As humans, we are obligated to rise above our base instincts and view things with rationality and empathy for our fellow humans.

[@no1weezerfan]

doesn't he say that everyone who's kind is automatically prettier? i mean that is true

[@ccaagg]

@@nm9688 It's also simply not true to assert. We have no way of knowing how much of it, if any, is natural because we don't have a single case study from a time where people _weren't_ socialised to equate appearance and character. So many modern problems with society are ignored thanks to these baseless assertions of "human nature" (like greed and selfishness, for instance).

[@nathangibbons9492]

I remember reading "The Twits" in Middle School and thinking it was one of the funniest things I'd ever read, and I still enjoyed the 1996 version of "Matilda". I don't feel comfortable reading or defending Dahl anymore despite his brilliant prose after hearing his statements about Jews. I wish you had brought that up in the video because his quote about how "even a stinker like Hitler didn't just pick on them for no reason" is really hard to ignore. Otherwise it's a good video.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

Yeah, the poem about the "rat" really let me with a sour taste. He couldn't ignore what vile imagery he was convoking here.

[@Lutemoth]

This is how I find out that Road Dahl loathed Jewish people? In a KZbin comment??

[@msjkramey]

Calling Hitler a "stinker" is also absurd

[@RoughestDrafts]

I'm honestly really kicking myself for missing the antisemitism in "The Tortoise and the Hare." I can't believe that just flew over my head, especially since I was aware of Dahl's antisemitic history. Thank you for pointing out yet another reason we should take his work with a grain of salt. I'm glad this comment gained traction.

[@nathangibbons9492]

@@RoughestDrafts thank you for being understanding, not many KZbinrs are

[@ConvincingPeople]

One thing about how Dahl treated “ugliness” in his work: There is a lovely passage in, if I recall correctly, The Witches about how true ugliness has nothing to do with superficial aesthetics or attractiveness, and that where kindness shines through in people who may have features judged “ugly” by society and makes their “flaws” beautiful to us, cruelty corrodes and destroys any outer beauty that a person may seem to possess at first blush because the inner hideousness always seeps through one way or the other. Certainly his framing of people’s looks could be quite nasty in places, but there is, in that passage, I think something very valuable worth bearing in mind, particularly for children who might feel self-conscious about these things.

[@dailytzeentch1664]

That quote is in the Twits, not the Witches.

[@ConvincingPeople]

@@dailytzeentch1664 Ah, thank you! It's been a very long time but it's stuck with me.

[@nishapatel-vu9lm]

it's a very good passage, just a shame he didn't carry that sentiment into his wider work :(

[@altalt479]

I mean as sweet as that sentiment is it's not really the reality we live in though so idk how good of a lesson it would be. I mean we're a desirability based society, people who are considered desirable by the masses are factually treated better than those who aren't often regardless of their personalities.

[@dustyrose192]

"if you think cruel acts you'll start to reflect your inner self. However if you think kind thoughts then that will reflect." I think thats how the quote goes

[@BradsPitts.]

imo adding content warnings >>> censorship

[@lokcachte]

I’m cutrently reading Lolita (which I have a lot of feelings about). The book has multiple intros and my copy from the library ends with an essay from Nabakov, I assume describing his intent. This wouldn’t always be necessary, but I think it could be helpful in Dahl’s case to add intros to the books to recontextulize and educate, other even add a glossary at the end for kids that have no one to teach them and to better understand a content warning

[@J0hnHenrySNEEDen]

​@@lokcachte show me your hard drive

[@theFakeRed]

​@@J0hnHenrySNEEDensuch an unnecessary comment to make

[@DeathnoteBB]

@@J0hnHenrySNEEDenTell me you never actually understood Lolita without telling me

[@victoriandino]

Yes! And adding context in a way that’s understandable for kids if necessary!

[@dustykneez]

Thinking on the tummy trouble poem, with Dahl’s others you covered, I think his point was about the dangers of parents who don’t listen to children’s medical concerns. Especially if a child is typically high energy, the parent may dismiss these claims until there’s no ignoring that there’s actually something wrong with the kid.

[@zester000]

I was honestly very surprised to find a poem in defense of victims (of any sort but the implication is mental illness) from Dahl of all people. That message hardly goes unchallenged in the present, sadly.

[@treacherous-doctor]

it's not only that- the poem specifically features a child who's overweight, a demographic (be they kids or adults) who often have their medical issues dismissed by both their loved ones and their doctors. they'll be quickly brushed off and told to lose weight. and when the problems persist, people attribute it to them just not trying hard enough. I doubt Dahl was thinking about fatphobia when he wrote the poem, but it's definitely a theme that warrants discussion in and of itself

[@Rissa_1322]

The problem with tuning prejudice that shows up in literature into teaching moments is a lot of kids don't have anyone to teach them. As a kid I could've picked up a book from the library but everyone around me was pretty severely racist so I would not have found out there was anything wrong, and indeed I didn't until my early twenties lol.

[@WobblesandBean]

Same. My parents are disgustingly racist and I had no idea about any of that stuff until my late teens.

[@mckinneym.2743]

Yuuuuup

[@ConvincingPeople]

@@Rissa_1322 I mean, that's less a problem of individual books having problematic aspects and more of society being kinda cooked more generally, unfortunately.

[@redline841]

​@@WobblesandBean Words of Power obtained

[@redline841]

Censoring this kind of stuff also has the unintended effect of making said funny words have more power and strength because it's brand new to them.

[@Foogi9000]

2:56 And Dahl is right, the original was much darker and mature than Disney's version. Fun fact: J.R.R Tolkien hated Disney, he considered their adaptations to be bastardizations of the fairy tales he personally knew and loved. He was also felt like it disrespected the intelligence of children talked down to them.

[@PeachReaver]

Oh stuff and nonsense, the versions of the stories that are "darker" are also centuries old and have been changed to suit the people telling them, the Grim Brothers frequently re-wrote stories to suit their puritan views.

[@CreoTan]

There is no "original" cinderella story. There were hundreds of stories that fall under the umbrella from countless cultures across the world. The version of the story disney based their story on was Cendrillon ou la petite pantoufle de verre, by Perrault, written in 1697, which is the version with the pumpkin carriage, glass slipper, and 0 foot mutilation or eye pecking crows. The grimm's brothers version was published in 1812.

[@meattworm45]

the pig poem is surprisingly realistic saying that pigs are incredibly intelligent animals so if any animal was going to think about the meaning of life it'd probably be a pig

[@lahlybird895]

It's also realistic in the fact that pigs can and have eaten humans before So not only is any animal going to think about it being a pig probably likely but also if any of the animals we eat is going to figure out that they can just eat us back it's also going to be a pig

[@Edud62Alugetha]

The problem I have with the censorship of Roald Dahl's work is that it does not reduce harm to its readers so much as it protects his legacy. In a time where we are more and more acknowledging the nuance in the violence of our history and politics, we have come face to face several times with the fact that key figures have had their legacies and contributions to history altered or censored in order to fit a simpler and more convenient political narrative. It is harder to criticise what is wrong in a moral tale where the complexity of someone's morals is erased. It is a genocide of a part of history that only benifits those criticised by it.

[@SharpForceTrauma]

Exactly. There's been plenty of horrible people in the world throughout history, trying to hide that horribleness does nothing but burnish their character. We got to look it in the eyes, accept it, and take it as a reminder of the nature of the lens of history.

[@TeemoQuinton]

... and what harm is being done to the readers, exactly?

[@hi-i-am-atan]

@@TeemoQuinton are you just waiting for someone to hand you the obvious answer so that you can go off some unhinged rant about how men these days are pathetic sniveling women and women these days are shrieking hysterical demons and how everyone ( except, implicitly, a bunch of traditionalist white dudes ) is degenerating the human race into some subhuman creature that is totally not some white supremacist's allegory for a certain ethnicity or twenty because they're not emotionally constipating themselves through their entire lives, or are you genuinely oblivious to how words used to hurt hurt to read

[@Oldass_Deadass_dumbass_channel]

​@@TeemoQuintoneasiest example: portraying sexual assault against a young boy for comedic effect in children's media is... Bad.

[@CadeAlex]

Although looking back on roald dahl's work quite a bit of predjudice shines through, his prose made for such incredible fiction without the stories being shielded completely from realism. I also did admire his optimistic outlook, which is clear with quotes like "A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts they will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely." I find it incredible that he was able to have a positive outlook after events in his life like being shot down over the lybian desert while he was a wartime pilot.

[@WobblesandBean]

So basically you, a white guy, are saying "racism is ok as long as you're a good writer".

[@jankbunky4279]

I gotta say, I disagree that the Hot and Cold poem portrays the boy as being in a situation that's exciting for him. It very explicitely goes out of its way to point to the boy's youth, and complete ignorance on why the woman is taking off her clothes.

[@FTZPLTC]

Having read it as a kid, I can confirm that the idea of someone coming into your house and stripping off was just funny, for the same reason that the BFG farting in front of the Queen was funny.

[@lahlybird895]

And the one about the gym teacher didn't feel like it was trying to be make the child seem excited either just like a victim who did not know he was a victim which is often the case children don't realize what's happening to them especially if it's being portrayed in a way of a teacher trying to be helpful or something

[@IridiumTurtle]

I agree, the ending is ambiguous but it doesn't seem like anything happened. I never thought the woman was taking advantage of the child, I thought maybe she was planning something with the boy's father (or mother?). At least I hope that was the case.

[@urgae9125]

@@lahlybird895did you not see the smile and blushing on the boy’s face? It’s literally him showing that the boy “likes” that’s he’s being victimized. Not to mention how flowery and fawning he is over her.

[@lahlybird895]

@@urgae9125 well seeing as how I'm blind and the illustration was not described no actually I didn't, I was taking the actual words of a poem which are the more important part into account.

[@Laezar1]

the issue with altering these works is that... they're still racist and sexist. You can't just modify a lines to make them not so because the whole structure of these story are going to be affected by the author's views. By hiding the racism and the sexism you only make it easier for these ideas to reach kid's by giving them a more acceptable vehicle. This has the exact opposite effect as what's intended.

[@stuglife5514]

Personally, as a gay “man” who looks like a chick, I say don’t alter the works. But instead, put a disclaimer in the book explaining to kids how people back then werent so…wise to the way others should be treated as we are today. That’s history, real or fictional, that’s how minorities were treated. And it deserves to stay that way, to not be censored, so that way when modern day people start holding those sentiments, it’s easier to identify. I don’t like censorship, and not just for the things I like but the things I don’t like as well

[@Laezar1]

@@stuglife5514 Disclaimer are fine on the publisher part though they are destined to adults. I think there should also be caution about how those books are presented and spread too. Like, don't have them in the children's book section of your library for exemple, and just in general don't give them to read for kids without supervision. Like maybe reading it with them and pointing out when something racist pops up and trying to deconstruct it. Ultimately if the goal is just to have entertainment books for kids maybe just skip it altogether and find something else more modern. I'm not for any sort of enforced censorship but I'm still for taking into account the context of those books and doing work to correct the harm they might do.

[@senordinkus]

​@@stuglife5514why'd you put quotations around man?

[@lahlybird895]

​@@Laezar1it's literally a children's book it's meant to be in the children's section of the library just because you think the messages can be harmful for children doesn't mean that it's not meant to be read by children. And honestly the idea that a child is going to read a book that might have a racist affect the sentiment and instantly become racist or affected if just a ridiculous as the idea that a child is going to read a book with a clear character and immediately become gay. From my personal experience children don't actually look at the world outside the book. Ideas like that for children really only spread through constant repetition and other sources. For instance if a child finds affect the sentiment in a book and that's mirrored in the world around them or they find it in multiple books then they might start to believe it just because of constant exposure but if they just find it in a book especially if it's not the only sentiment in that book they're probably just going to think of it as that character or in that specific book. like in James and the Giant peach the sensitivity readers took out the part about the snow cloud women make cooking snowball for their husbands, because they thought that automatically was sexist just because a woman was cooking but it's not because first of all these are a made-up species of cloud people not real people and most children are going to just think about that and not think that these cloud people are real women in the first place and second of all I never said anything about the women being forced to or anything about that or that women are supposed to it just shows you women cooking, and if the child at home reading has a mother who cooks they might maybe make the connection and think that that character reminds them of their mom and that's it and for a child whose mother doesn't cook they're obviously not going to start thinking all women have to cook. Probably neither child is going to think that. And for the child whose mother does cook maybe if they find other books that also always show women cooking then they might start getting fixed with ideas, if they don't consider to just be a writing Tropez. and for the child whose mother doesn't cook they find other books that have the same idea of maybe they'll ask about it, or maybe they won't maybe they'll think that's weird but they'll obviously have their own personal experience to know that's not always the case and in all honesty they will also probably just think it's a writing Tropez. Like some examples of my personal experience finding stereotypes in books and how I reacted to them, I read multiple books where there's a character who is introduced with a stutter who's been revealed to secretly be a villain putting on the stutter as a way to seem less intimidating and be underestimated. It actually happened more than once. I noticed that but I only just thought that it was a writing tactic and that maybe one had been inspired by the other or that it was something to work out for when other characters have stutters in books I never once decided that them and people with real life stutters were secretly villains. The problem is not and has never been the content of the books the problem has always been people's inability to separate fact from fiction and stories from reality. Allegory is being made they don't know the history or whatever that the adults are easily picking up on so they just think it's a story most of the time. It's a weird contrast in that children are more likely to believe stories but also less likely to actually compare them to the real world whereas adults are perfectly aware of the story is fiction but also can seem to separate it. What children will wholeheartedly believed that Harry Potter is real and they can actually go to Hogwarts but won't notice any of the supposed racist or whatever implications within the books. Well the adults who love to analyze that kind of thing will notice pretty much only those and even stopped caring about the actual story and characters and everything in particular because it they have to analyze all the potential harmful messaging that's in there that nobody is even going to pick up on except them. Like children aren't going to look at the goblins and think Jewish people they're just going to think of goblins. The real problem is that we need to find a balance between being able to understand the stories as fiction and also keep the stories to themselves. Jessica the story has a villain doesn't mean that the author is saying every single person who's even semi similar to the villain of the story is a bad person and adults really need to get better at recognizing that fact. If you want children to not internalized racist infected messaging stop telling them that every single thing is racist and sexist. This character tell them that this character might be a bad person from a different demographic if you have to and point out that that's only because of the character is a bad person not because the demographic is bad that's all you need to do. You don't have to keep the book from the children or rewrite them to take out all their original language. It's debatable whether you even need to actually put in content warnings probably only if the child seems to think there's a message that's harmful to them which fair enough, but other than that children are actually not of analytical as we are giving them credit for. And we have adults need to stop projecting our own ability to psychoanalyze an author based on the language of about their characters onto the children because the children are not doing that.

[@DiamondWorldYoutube]

​@@lahlybird895 Bro speaking fax

[@JJMcCullough]

I like that quote about Dahl and TV a lot. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is one of the most culturally important works of children’s literature, but the book is obviously very goofy and random and its morality feels very idiosyncratic. In his other books, and in most of these poems, the bad people are bad in a pretty unambiguous way: they’re violent, or liars, or cheats or thieves. But in “Charlie” the wicked children are mostly just personally offensive to Dahl’s own sensibilities and are punished for that. The story about the anteater is also another example of Dahl’s often shallow British chauvinism and anti-Americanism. Americans in his works, like Mike Teevee or Violent Beauregard or the US president in the Great Glass Elevator are always such one dimensional caricatures of American culture for him to righteously judge. Even American pronunciations in the anteater poem are portrayed as wrong, and one could even argue, “punished.”

[@tydetheseawing9821]

Fancy seeing you here. Nice seeing your take on this as a kid who grew up OBSESSED with Dahl and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

[@nm9688]

Enid Blyton has a similar attitude for Americans

[@sash_iii]

The pronunciation of 'aunt' as 'ant' makes even less sense to mock as an American thing as well, as there are plenty of British accents that pronounce it that way too!

[@ASingleSpaghetti]

I've always seen grammar "rules" as more "guidlines" than actual rules. Like yeah, it can be annoying if someone uses a run-on sentence, but that's nothing to demean a person over.

[@Jimpiedepimpie]

You're supposed to think Mr. Wonka is a bad guy for owning slaves. Did you miss that part?

[@leee1260]

Censorship also removes the opportunity for accountability. Covering up the shitty things he said, to me, says that he never thought any differently than the ways portrayed in his works, the publishers just want to make more money off of them. Pretend he was a better man than he was, make his work more digestible to appease more readers. Readers should be able to critique the things they read, and if we pretend they didn’t happen, it’s whitewashing history and dooming us to repeat it.

[@noheroespublishing1907]

Some of these reminded me of "Love You Forever" by Robert Munsch; a book that somehow some people find controversial because of the liberties it takes with it's more romantic poetics of parenthood, but when you know the reasons/conditions the book was written under you totally understand why those more fantastic bits were added, a grieving person was dreaming about a child they'll never get to see grow up.

[@moonfish3638]

Robert Munsch is a household name for most Canadians but this comment was the first time I learned that the story was controversial, and that it was inspired after Munsch's wife had two stillborn pregnancies. I suppose the idea of the mom singing to her son as a teenager and adult might strike people as odd, but I always saw that as a fanciful depiction of a parent still loving their children no matter how old or independent they are. To this day, thinking of the "I love you forever, i'll like you for always, as long as i'm living, my baby you'll be" refrain makes me tear up and learning the backstory to this book means I don't think I could ever read it to my own kids without crying.

[@noheroespublishing1907]

@@moonfish3638 it was more the mother climbing a ladder to visit her child while sleeping that was viewed as unnerving by some people.

[@boyrotting]

i used to love roald dahl as a child, mainly because his writing style was pretty similar to my favourite children's author of all time: gianni rodari. i'd suggest checking him out if you like roald dahl's stuff. however he's italian (and so am i) so i've only ever read his work in its original form, and i have no idea if it was ever translated...

[@boyrotting]

one of his book's translation seems to be available! it's "telling stories wrong", which is actually pretty similar to dahl's fairytale retellings

[@GilmarGirl]

I agree that censorship is not the solution. That's a slippery slope that just isn't worth the risk. Just because an author was a product of their time doesn't mean we should never read any of their work, ever. I was one of those kids Roald Dahl described: the kids that read their favorite books 15 times. I did that with his books. I'd never heard that quote from him before, but hearing it touched me as an adult because it made me feel like he wrote those books just for me and kids like me. He knew what he was doing and did his job well. His books do stand up to rereads, and they clearly stand up to adaptation as well, considering that several films have been made from his works. The BFG, Matilda, the Twits, the Witches, James and the Giant Peach, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory... it would be such a shame to discredit these works for a few questionable pieces of writing. Roald Dahl definitely has literary merit and impact, and you can't deny it. You may not like him, but you can't deny it. He wouldn't have lasted so long if it wasn't true. Not to say that the questionable stuff is okay, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. This goes with all authors. It's okay to like some things about an author and not like others. I'm tired of people thinking in black and white extremes.

[@misopeachy]

Its the age old saying in this case. Seperate the art from the artist.

[@jmrabinez9254]

Why are you tired of people thinking in black and white extremes?

[@GrubbyGub]

@@jmrabinez9254 because complete and total acceptance of a single side or ideal tends to quash people’s critical thinking skills and overall concept of nuance, it’s very dangerous to blindly follow ideas.

[@lahlybird895]

It's almost like people who write despite writing are also still just people people who have their own thoughts and their own feelings and people who have their own list of traits and flaws just like everybody else

[@lahlybird895]

​@@misopeachyI don't think that's the solution either because of the way people use it. They only use it to mean if an author does something bad just ignore that and keep the good work that you like but the fact is a lot of the times as people pointed out sometimes the negative messaging of an author can slip into the work and that's important and there is sometimes negative artworks and you can't just remove that from an author either. Puff vendors the whole thing about taking credit you know separate the yard from the artist albino selfie means remove the credit from the art as well. And that becomes especially complicated when the artist is in fact still alive, because they still have and deserve the right to be recognized for what they've done and what they've made and to be able to talk about it and to be able to influence it. It's thoughts like separate the yard from the artist that also leads to bad behaviors like ignoring the authors wishes for their own work. Which is a whole other can of worms

[@tristanbryan3067]

What if those weird poems about adults sexually abusing children is supposed to be like bringing awareness or like trying to say you should teach your kids about what adults shouldn't do? This is obviously me grasping a little bit but the fact that the child is always a boy doesn't help his case lmao

[@sophiatalksmusic3588]

I think they were intended to be comedic; there's no mention of how either situation could have brought harm to the children or that the adults' behavior was inappropriate. If I had to guess, it comes from the trope where an older woman committing sexual assault is portrayed as comedic, or that boys are supposed to "enjoy" it, despite the actual harm any form of sexual assault could cause.

[@misopeachy]

@@sophiatalksmusic3588 I also noticed that all the poems with r*pey topics like the P.E teacher or the Mother's Friend, the predator is a woman. This is very telling. In a world with toxic masculinaty young men "scoring" older women is still seen by most as a great feat. Many don't realize they are victims, its only recently that people have called this out. Although he wasnt using it to teach kids that its bad, people can now.

[@ashleylongley1628]

@@misopeachy”young men” or children? There’s a difference there

[@misopeachy]

@@ashleylongley1628 Of course. I never disputed that? I was clearly stated they were victims also. Young men/women is a term used for late teens to early adulthood. Although yes the word "men" or "women" itself refers to only adults in other/most circumstances. English is a complex language, words tend to not have one definition. Anyways, my point is I wasn't speaking on young children because that's much more obvious to people. Of course people will realize sexual assault is going on. No ones gonna look at someone who's not even begun puberty with an older woman and say he's lucky or he's scored big. Its too clearly a predator. Again I was speaking on toxic masculinity which is prevalent with teens and young adults. The popular guy with a college girl trope in early 2000's rom coms is a good example. Please don't misconstrue my words. Your making it seem like I purposely said otherwise, which I don't appreciate.

[@candide1065]

@@misopeachy Your comments are so full of toxic femininity. Who hurt you?

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

_The Witches_ is the most darkest Roald Dahl work yet that I thought the hotel manager stabbing the Grand High Witch as a mouse is brutal (doesn't help that the manager is Mr. Bean, of all people), but _Revolting Rhymes_ showing the Prince slaying Cinderella's step sister with a sword as he showed his true color is pretty grizzly (which is not surprising that the Grimm Bros. version of the story is already dark to begin with).

[@FishareFriendsNotFood972]

1:04 Thank you for using the term 'censorship' correctly here. I get annoyed when some media types use the term 'censorship' to refer to books being taken off reading lists, not taught, or even not carried by bookstores. Freedom means both that you think a book can exist, but also that institutions can be to choose to not promote said book anymore. Reading lists can and SHOULD evolve with the times and changing social mores.

[@liljepolak8565]

When we got to 4th grade, our new class-teacher took to reading us 'The Witches' by Dahl each Thursday. But not just that - throughout the story, she'd call herself a witch; mean, scary, and an avid kid-hater! As the story moved on, the boy developed a master plan to defeat the witches. She played along "oh but he won't succeed! We are witches. We are so powerful!" My classmates and I were all so riled up! By the end, she told us that she'd be 'open to working with us' now that we have learned how to destroy a witch. Her introduction as a witch, to us, children - was so striking! She felt like a threat in a way, but not like an untouchable authority. She was the best class teacher I've ever had. I'm 21 now and still reminisce on my anxiety riddled days, where my attendance was at a measely 40%. She'd call me each school morning at 07:30 to tell me that if I came to school, everyone would be happy to see me. So I came to school more, thank you witch teacher

[@kylewoodson]

Hello hello! I don't comment much if ever, but I wanted to leave this comment to say thank you. I have been watching and admiring amd studying all of the poems, stories, and ideas you have been showing in these videos, and you have brought a great inspiration to me. Especially with these videos about poems. I have grown to love poems since middle school and wrote a ton during the pandemic, but since 2 years ago I have been on a drought of poetic and writing creativity, until I stumbled into this video and your other video about Mr. Silversten. I want to say thank you or being an inspiration to inspiring poets and writers, and I hope your day is merry and bright!

[@delta7737]

Thanks for making this video. We should never erase history just because we're afraid of it. Learning with people's mistakes and being critical of influential artists is really important. I think you did exactly that, interpreted what was important and criticized what was bigoted.

[@Sunny-ek8sx]

as a huge matilda and bfg fan who just started this video i am not having fun

[@QuiteSimplyInsane]

Well, I suppose the lesson here is it's fine to enjoy media without agreeing with the person who made whatever it is you like. BFG was fun though

[@justin2308]

And here I used to think the worst thing Dahl ever did was the Knidds in Great Glass Elevator. Seriously, that illustration of one just standing in the elevator combined with the description in his writing still messes me up. That was my first real glimpse into the uncanny valley.

[@misopeachy]

As a kid I read basically all of Roald Dahls books and poems I even read one of his audobiographies too. And I espiecally found revolting rhymes quite entertaining, the cinderella one has been ingrained in my mind. I'm going to be quite frank, I never caught on to any of the problematic stuff. I am left leaning and was suprised at a lot of these because as a kid its something I would simply not understand and move on from. Roald Dahl was the fun and slightly naughty book in my houshold and school. I was read "The Witches" a lot in school, its kind of like a entrance into the horror genre for kids where most books were adventure fantasy. I also really think Roald Dahls books are for older kids give or take something around 8-12, now I did read these at a younger age but I also didnt retain anything deeper than the base story. I think people both underestimate and overestimate how much kids understand. These topics are in kids content way more than you would think, it's usually there for the parents. A parent will see the deeper meaning and it will either fly over the kids head or they will get the basis of the joke/story. I know this has been said many times but these were written from the 1940s through 50's and such. It is no suprise theres racism, mysogyny, and very serious topics. (I also noticed that all the poems with r*pey topics like the P.E teacher or the Mother's Friend, the predator is a woman. This is very telling. In a world with toxic masculinaty young men "scoring" older women is still seen by most as a great feat. Many don't realize they are victims, its only recently that people have called this out..) Do not get me wrong I am not defending these! I do think some of these poems that have no other story but the offending topic should probably not be shown to children. Although it could maybe be used to shown that its not okay in a simple form? I'm not sure. Overall, don't ban these poems/books. If you are raising your child right and they do find these topics in a book (or any type content) you should be able to explain why this is wrong. Banning old lititure is not really the way to handle it in fact its a great teaching moment. "How many of you have read Roald Dahl? How many of you enjoyed it? How many of you noticed the questionable moments?" Just like Roughest Drafts said it opens up conversation into controverial topics. ANYYYWAY thats my shitty thoughts on it.

[@lahlybird895]

I was thinking pretty much the same thing that we are giving children way too much freaking credit. A child is just too simplistic they think of the story as the story therefore any negative youth they have aren't likely to trickle into the real world even if they are strong enough for the child to notice in the first place and if they do it's probably not going to be an actual racism thing it's probably just going to be like children bullying each other on the playground because one child kind of looks like a bad character in a book and not because they think all people are bad who look anywhere or similar. And children are probably going to blow each other on in elementary school anyway no matter what so

[@spiceycustard3024]

His book Danny the Champion of the World still sticks with me all of these years later

[@leafzz-v7]

I read that when i was 7, i still love it

[@ConjureNoonSloth]

16:50 I just thought of Dahl using “Afghanistan” there to rhyme with “man” lol

[@jankbunky4279]

I could totally believe that. I don't think Dahl was trying to make a point on purpose about foreigners being bad people. He just held nasty beliefs about foreigners of various flavours, and thus it seeped into a poem purely by chance.

[@nobody08088]

​@@jankbunky4279 "foreign freak" is a bit more damning though.

[@jankbunky4279]

@nobody08088 I'm not saying it isn't damning towards Dahl, just that I'd guess the poem itself isn't supposed to be *about* foreigners. Just that this is something that to him, would seem "normal" enough to write.

[@ConjureNoonSloth]

@@nobody08088 yeah that’s one is rough

[@marthademovimaus5140]

Yeah, he had to use one of the -stan countries!

[@nanuqo2006]

Hearing an American say “Daft” is so incredibly uncanny

[@EngineerMonkey-zp3yj]

Why?

[@nanuqo2006]

@@EngineerMonkey-zp3yj Its british slang. Not a very american word

[@EngineerMonkey-zp3yj]

@@nanuqo2006 Ah, I get it!

[@tonyheraldo6525]

Not very American? It's not like we're talking about " twee" or something. Daft is just the polite word for moron here.

[@dubitataugustinus]

Dahl: 'no matter how you look, if you have good thoughts you will be beautiful' :) Dahl's artist: draws the most disgusting orc-looking child

[@edartist4062]

Oh my God, I loved the Giraffe the Pelly and me, it was my favourite story ever as a kid. My Mum's old car had a tape player and she borrowed that story from the library. Despite being really small I still remember how good the narration and music and story was. The library soon got rid of all their tapes and we could never find that recording again.

[@ianflanagan209]

I don't think you can understand the Afghanistan reference in the cow unless you analyze the Taliban in Afghanistan which denies woman education and equal rights. The cow is female. Also Britian has had a very tricky history with Afghanistan with opium wars and imperialism. Also Afghanistan was in the news a lot in the 80s due to Russia invasion of Afghanistan which was like their veitnam. I would imagine this at least in part informed his choice of Afghanistan. Although the use foreign freak is xenophobic non the less.

[@lizapest8518]

I think that the Afghanistan reference was chosen because of the whole "brown people wearing turbans" kind of xenophobia. In political cartoons of the time it was common for the turbans to be mocked as a 'cow pat' and of course the cow in the story takes a dump on his head.

[@sean..L]

All these rhymes some how start to make more sense when you imagine them read in Salad Finger's voice

[@JorWat25]

Even though I had a feeling it was coming, seeing 'A Hand in the Bird' gave me mental whiplash as my grandmother has a copy of it in her bathroom, so I've seen it many times over the years.

[@nadine1208]

I used to love these poems. I remember my teacher read the fairytale ones to us back when i was 10 or 11. I loved that the stories were unpolished. It was a nice change reading about a character that wasn't perfect. It opened discussion about subjects we'd normally never think about. I think those conversations are really valuable, and censorship takes that away.

[@astrinymris9953]

I was never a big fan of Roald Dahl, because I dislike his black-and-white morality. Characters are usually all good or all evil, which I find both poor storytelling and mean-spirited. I mean, I like 'Matilda' okay, but most of his other novels are pretty meh. I thus have little experience with his poetry except for this video. And I have to say, I don't find his verses as morally problematic as 'The Witches'. Maybe because the poetry is obviously crackfic, and you aren't supposed to take it to heart they way you would a novel? Also, the book 'Rhyme Stew' literally has "Warning: Unsuitable for small people" in its cover art, which ought to give any adult a warning to read it and consider before handing it to any child. I agree that Dahl's books shouldn't be banned, but used to teach kids that writers aren't always admirable people, and literature should be read critically, rather than passively absorbed.

[@Lxkoxkoksolps]

I guess. as a kid, even though all of us read roald dahl books, I didnt enjoy most of them because of the mean-spiritedness upsetting me lol. I do remember enjoying some passages though that I'd reread over and over, ignoring the parts that scared me/I didnt like. so theres that. also I'll say, I do remember feeling that experiencing the mean-spirited did help me develop as a kid. I cant explain it but I can feel I changed learning early on the world can be mean and unfair from his books/poems that dont end in sunshine and rainbows like other kids media. it's important for some kids media to portray shitty stuff without good endings to prepare them for the reality later on

[@TeemoQuinton]

That black-and-white thing is a constant for childrens books in general, not just special for Roald.

[@maydaymemer4660]

His morality is always on that adults are bad and kids are good. I dont really think thats a valuable criticism given his style

[@TeemoQuinton]

@@maydaymemer4660 thats... A way to look at it.

[@PauTheDeo]

As much as I understand the reason to censor Dahl's books (at least some of the reasons) I feel like its way too disrespectful to Dahl and authors in general. Authors and their works are always disrespected, like when dead authors' unfinished stories are published without permission, or how it is with Roald, changing their writing. Dahl stated that he was against people changinf even one comma in his stories, so to just change words like "ugly" or even "black" (when referring to a vehicle) is just absurd. There's entire descriptions removed for the sake of protecting the young. Its quite sickening.

[@microwavecoffee]

Yeah. Dahl's no saint but he had these almost gross out descriptive passages that added a lot of character to his work.

[@AdrianDiaz-u9l]

So sorry we're disrespecting a racist

[@PauTheDeo]

​@@AdrianDiaz-u9l It's disrespectful to writers in general. Art is Art, you shouldn't change it to your way of perceiving the world, even if you're correct. If you don't like a writer's writing, don't publish it. It's like giving Mona Lisa a moustache. Even if there's a reason for it, you're still changing Art, either show it or don't.

[@PauTheDeo]

​@@AdrianDiaz-u9lRoughest Drafts, says this himself at the start of the video.

[@PauTheDeo]

​@@AdrianDiaz-u9l If you truly want kids not to read racism (which from what I see, there really isn't any in much of his books) you can add a warning, similar to what Disney+ does with movies like Peter Pan.

[@padenlisk2447]

Something I find notable about Dick Wittington and is Cat is that the British marching tune Long Way to Tipperary features the quote "Up to mighty London went an Irish lad one day. All the streets were paved with gold so everyone was gay". As this song has an association with recruiters I believe he is also commenting on the lies of the military when speaking of gold paved streets.

[@blakeharrupdack1256]

Ahhhh I adored Revolting Rhymes as a kid! This will be a fun watch

[@alicetheibault9440]

From my perspective, the problem with censoring Dahl's work is that there's no getting around what a terrible person he was. At the end of the day, he really was a bigot, a bully, and an abuser, and that's something no amount of editing his stories is ever going to change. As such, I think the best use of his books is as a teachable moment, insofar as they can serve as a kid's first introduction to how bad people think and view the world.

[@maydaymemer4660]

Dude fought the nazis to get called a bigot by you sitting in your chair eating doritos

[@awhimsyreader9015]

​@@maydaymemer4660 He once said that Gene Wilder was unfit to play Willy Wonka because he was Jewish and that Wilder looked evil and unsettling because he was jewish so I don't think OP is far off when they call him a bigot

[@miyubeilschmidt5351]

​@@maydaymemer4660he openly admits to being an antisemite lol.

[@Victoria-vd2li]

in a practical sense, i think having censored versions for young children is fine. Dahl doesnt raise our kids; we do. On the other hand, having the original version be available for older kids is important. I feel his writing is made to challenge the reader into not just taking things for granted and accepting things that are presented to us. So, things in his poems that are clearly wrong don't announce that they're wrong. its up to the reader to go 'hey, wait a minute'

[@MandelTräd]

A short Haiku about my current state of mind: Please wake up honey! No, you can share my breakfast!! A new draft just dropped!!!

[@chadcronkwick4989]

Dandy

[@dolphin1418]

I like the lack of unpalatable flack

[@mckenziepearmain]

i think as a kid roald dahl unsettled me or weirded me out so i didn’t really read much of his works. it’s so interesting to see so much of what he wrote would have probably gone over my head!

[@autonomous3807]

Lots of contempt for the upper ruling class. Makes you think why they're really cancelling him

[@S4NR1O_LUVR]

I had never read this before but I remember a show on Netflix that was based around this. Personally, I loved the show and I think it’s better conveyed that way rather than in the uncensored book

[@nobody-fh5dd]

your voice brings me peace

[@RegularBiscuit]

I had a different conclusion in the flying cow poem. The mans origin foremost simply rhymes with 'man' as well as possibly telling how people will come from outside of a group and be rude, seeing as he travelled the whole way just to be horrid.

[@alicethemad1613]

I think, unequivocally, those poems targeted towards a child audience treating sexual abuse/assault of children as a joke at best and aspirational at worst should be removed from any future publications. You could make an argument for using the rest of these as teachable moments or even about their severity or validity, but those are actively dangerous.

[@pliskin101]

We have a similar problem in my country. One of our most influential writer of children’s literature, from the early 1920s, was a virulent racist and white supremacist. His most famous work doesn’t have any of that, but it’s hard to ignore his other works, which some of them do touch upon the subject.

[@leonhardeuler7647]

Are you talking about Lovecraft?

[@moonfish3638]

@@leonhardeuler7647 Lovecraft is not what i'd describe as children's literature, and his most famous works have very racist undertones throughout.

[@ASingleSpaghetti]

​@@moonfish3638"Dear god no... I'm WELSH" *Writes Shadow Over Innsmouth

[@haruspicex]

I can probably guess OP's from Brazil, from the description. There was this very influent author and editor, we even have tv series and movies from his IP. But yeah, he was actually a self-proclaimed eugenist. I read his books when I was a child, they were my first contact with literature. I don't regret reading it, because my parents couldn't have known, but it's really hard to revisit it nowadays. Especially because you can see how his vicious ideology was imprinted on his characters.

[@yanderespecialist7142]

Oh my god I did the exact same thing when I was a kid with the silly verses books, thinking it was two different books. Glad to know the experience was universal!

[@Void-qz1zd]

Probably the most awkward transition into an ad read I've ever seen

[@Kayla-oe9wm]

Honestly I'm not really seeing the anticapitalist themes. The pig story, which I think is one you could make the strongest arguement for, seems to me to have a more broad message that could also be aimed at religion. A lot of the poems with rich characters seem to be more about acting entitled and greedy than about class structure. It's s possible to think business men are con artists and to hate rich posh people without really being an actual anticapitalist.

[@arlequinelunaire418]

I was stunned by just how many of these poems I remembered years later

[@misopeachy]

The cinderella one had been ingrained into my mind without me even realizing it.

[@it_is_i_deo]

20:16 goddamn Mr.Brightside even made it here, The Killers are everywhere.

[@frankstnable]

"'the pig' has strong anticapitalistic vibes - which must be why so many people drew comparisons to animal farm" uhmm, are we gonna tell him or...?

[@Sepi-chu_loves_moths]

I actually think you can draw a pretty not anti-communist outlook from animal farm - it's not like the farmers are much better seeing as they will kill the animals eventually

[@Phoebe5448]

Animal Farm was supposedly based on the Stalinist regime and Orwell's works mostly was about the criticism of totalitarianism in general. Orwell was pretty socialist and fought against Franco's regime in Spain if I remember right. ​@mothgirl326

[@Oldass_Deadass_dumbass_channel]

Gotta love how the people who invoke Orwell's name the most know almost nothing about his personal life or his actual beliefs.

[@ollieno971]

Animal farm is not a pro capitalist story, that’s a misconception

[@Phoebe5448]

@ollieno971 if anything, it's a critique against what Stalin twisted Communism into. And of course the character of Pinkerton satirising the US in general.

[@Wapcvm]

10:00 GAMBLING !!!!! 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣

[@thestanleyparableultradeluxe]

LETS GO GAMBLING!!!!!

[@ScS-g1o]

"Well if it isnt gambling, the greatest evil in the world?"

[@SionaIsTired]

thanks for the uploads!! your content is very appreciated

[@garlicK_ing]

Your rhythmic narration with its varied interpretation elevated my experience of watching this video😊 great work 👍🏽

[@meowmeow6013]

I really don't have much to input, but as a kid my home life wasn't the best and I clung to Matilda so much. I related to the story even if I didn't know what was happening to me was wrong and wanted to find my Miss Honey and live happily ever after. It gave me hope that things would get better eventually.

[@SpireSpore]

Thank you for mentioning lon po po. I read that when I was a kid! And you showing it up on the screen made me remember it! I had forgotten it.

[@katttscratchfever]

I remember watching a dvd or Tom & Jerry that had had a few of the older cartoons with "Mammy two shoes" in them, Ill always remember the opening with Whoopi goldberg they added where she explained the history behind her character, and how even though it's a very rac*st depiction of a black woman it was just as disrespectful to attempt to remove her and act like she never existed then to leave the cartoon as is and use it to educate people

[@iklone]

This video is incredibly funny to me. The totally deadpan reading of these comedy poems and then the dry dissection of them while I'm laughing at each one

[@svetatikhonova8718]

This unearthed so many memories omg, lovely video

[@BunnyEcho1]

I read a lot of uis books as a kid And it never felt like he was forcing bad views on me It felt like whimsical tales i had fun reading But everyone has their flaws

[@andrewwood3597]

Terrific video. I was afraid this was going to be a hit piece but it isn't. Very well balanced and sensible and thoroughly educational.

[@maxwellli7057]

As a small child I always founds these books strange and often terrifying. I think its better that we expose children to more complicated stories early lest they view the world as a fairytale too.

[@pupnub]

The fact that you haven't hit 1 million subscribers yet is shocking, your videos are so informative and high quality, and your voice lends itself amazingly to this video essay format. Keep it up as I think soon people will see how insane the content you make its.

[@taylorm8156]

One thought about Dahl's poetry is it ia definitely written with a lot of irony and sarcasm. You pointed out the irony in the Cow poem and to me the last couplet in Snow White read very sarcastically (its not a sin if you win, but you can only win with a magic mirror). I think there are still lessons here but are they accesible for young kids? His poems on women you dicussed in this video were icky, though

[@maydaymemer4660]

Americans dont understand irony

[@taylorm8156]

@@maydaymemer4660?

[@Xmannn001]

Children’s book author try not to be a horrible person challenge (impossible)

[@leafzz-v7]

Like Dr.Seuss

[@maydaymemer4660]

Im very sorry the dead british ww2 veteran had bad opinions on israel :(

[@specialthanksyou601]

I feel like “Hot and Cold” and “Physical Training” shouldn’t just be chalked up to fantasy fulfillment. To me, it seems to be about how sexual assault with children isn’t fully realized until they’re older, hence why there’s no punishment and it’s played for a joke. Another way it can be interpreted is how male sexual assault victims are often ignored or shrugged off simply because they’re male.

[@Dan-hd6rg]

The number one takeaway i got from reading Roald dahl's adult oriented material from my school library (expecting something entirely different) was that Roald dahl was a giant pervert. The impression it leaves is of a slightly more polished version of the fantasy/ wish-fulfilment p*rn you see by amateurs on online writer's forums. On reflection, the vibe it brings is of former child stars trying to be taken seriously, breaking free of their contractual squeaky-clean persona. Makes sense since he writes for children I suppose. However, he seems to be sticking to that same formula: the way he appeals to children who love seeing gross or disgusting things for the thrill of it (gory deaths and toilet humour), he uses s*x in the same way. He treats his adult readers like large children who might ooh and aah at the taboo topics. The wife swap and weird s*x scenes (the great switcheroo), the black comedy of The Visitor, the pheromone induced frenzy of B*tch- a lot of it seems to be shock-jock-y, or just because he can. What separates the fates of the chocolate factory kids from a man who slowly transforms into a giant talking "member"? It has an energy not unlike a 9 year old wielding a booger at his classmates at the end of his finger. Fittingly, as an 8th grader reading an inappropriate book, i reacted in exactly that way. In the end, the fact that he seems to be reveling in the freedom from child safe subjects yet falls into the same formula feels ironic. Just like my textbook format essay here. How'd I score?

[@patricksfriendbobthesponge8256]

Haha, your way of writing is very entertaining. Personally, I say you score into the Advanced category.

[@John_the_Paul]

The dude was a war veteran, the fact he managed to write anything suitable for children is a massive accomplishment on its own.

[@maydaymemer4660]

Roald Dahl’s adult stuff came before he wrote for children

[@megasparklegoomba6807]

9:44 obligatory 99% of gamblers quit before the hit it big

[@theghostlydreamer]

my legal name is Matilda, specifically named after the book. I don't go by it anymore, but it feels like it's still a part of me. It's disheartening to know of Dahl's actions, but I still can't deny the impacts the book Matilda (and many of his other books) had on my life as a child. However, I can't bring myself to read or defend him, ever. It's just an odd situation for me.

[@organiccouchpotato]

OMGG LON PO PO! I’d forgotten the name of that book and assumed it was a crazy dream i’d had lol. thank you for bringing it up

[@mousydoesstuff5366]

I remember watching the poems in pbs kids but in animation form and its funny to see that the show and the original poems where not so distinct

[@kyler4963]

Loved this. You are amazing at these!! And it's a plus that your content happens to be in my very specific niches!

[@silasmobhall9587]

2:52 CAN WE GET MUCH HIGHER!!! SO HIGH!!!

[@talkingraccoon525]

i never really got to read roald dahl's poems which is really sad because i would have loved it growing up. i only knew he wrote poems because netflix released a show a few years ago based on the revolting rhymes

[@harry.t9523]

Me looking at the thumbnail: Ever since I was a kid, I always wondered “🤨Why does that wolf have an anteater’s tongue?”. Imagine what one could do with the tongue of an anteater.

[@50bottlesofpinklemonade]

oh i hadn't realized the Revolting Rhymes animated film was based on a book... very interesting!

[@OWlsfordshire]

"Sensitivity Readers" LMAO.

[@IisLasagna]

14:10 personally, the pig reminded me of humanity as a whole. The farmer is the universe or even some god, and eventually, when or if we find our purpose to be bad, we will devour the the farmer whole and though we will be alive, everything will be much harder due to the lack of something protecting and feeding us.

[@twitchynosesam]

I think a good way to censor non acceptable stuff in children's books, is to publish two editions, one without the stuff in it, and one with it in. So it isnt removed from history, but you dont have to make your child interact with the stuff if u don't want to

[@maydaymemer4660]

Maybe parents should parent instead of letting massive corporations and an ipad parent them If you dont want your kid to read the bad bits in Roald Dahl, read it first and then read with them and explain what elements you dont like There was a quote in Futurama or Family Guy about this, “have you ever tried turning the tv off, sitting down with your kids and hitting them?” TV has had to deal with this puritanical attitude for years, but now we’re supposed to act like stuff that British kids could see the irony in is too much for American adults

[@twitchynosesam]

@@maydaymemer4660 this idea was more aimed to children who can independently read (and idk what the iPad part was for). Not everyone has enough time to read through everything their child's read, so they could rely on a company they trust (via past experiences) to remove any harmful content. Also a lot of the times the reason why a certain idea is bad is a lot more complex than that idea, so there could be issues with actually understanding what is wrong with it on both parent and child side.

[@Macer84]

I didn’t read as great a quantity of Roald Dahl’s work as some of my peers. But I must admit that hearing you read an excerpt of “The Girraffe and the Pelly and Me” brought tears to my eyes, as it was one of my favorite poems when I was little. I agree that censoring art is reductive to the intended message of said art, and that the more problematic aspects of Dahl’s work should be used to educate the youth about how our society has changed since the writing. Thank you for making this fantastic video.

[@Mr.Axolotle-of_the-eighth_guy]

17:00 I thought that the only reason he did that was to rhyme, but there could’ve a different reason, I don’t know

[@treacherous-doctor]

I really liked this analysis of Dahl's work because it doesn't just arbitrarily lump him into the category of a "good" or "bad" person, like many seem to do when talking about artists. The criticisms are just as valid as the praise here, and I appreciate that.

[@Handle8137]

Could it be that... perhaps, he is from Afghanistan because it rhymes?

[@ghoma8336]

interesting ! as someone not at all familiar with Roald dahl I apperciate the nice spread of stories I came in fully against the idea of censoring them and I'm still not onboard with rewriting someone's work as misguided as it might be, if only for the sake of preservation I guess the question gets more complex for me when I ask myself if some of these should be given to children I believe in children's intelligence and I think they can be taught to have a more nuanced and critical reading of the stories they're presented with at the same time, I have no grounds to theorize, stories like this are so far removed from children's book as I know them that I don't actually know how a child would internalize them the first stories with grim and somewhat adult though not explicit content I've experienced were fantasy stories at around age 10, and I know for a fact I didn't analyze anything that I was reading as I was already putting all my brainpower into simply understanding the text, and I certainly wasn't questioning the voice of the author ultimately I'm against censorship here but I question how children's stories should be curated and if a book should be put into the hands of young minds simply for being labeled as such

[@thegreaterclaush8292]

17:01 I disagree with giving the man The inportance of its roots in Afghanistan As rhyming is hard As jumping over own arms

[@alanritchie7850]

I think the Afghan man in the cow story is reference to the third Anglo-Afghan war in which the British used early planes to bomb the Afghan capital. Perhaps the idea was that the Afghans were dumb and didnt believe the power of the British until it was used on them. This interpretation is thus imperialist because of how it casually talks down to colonized people or foreigners. maybe Im just overthinking it

[@fz3043]

Even if that wasn't the exact intention he was going for, you raise a good point about that the British Empire was involved in Afghanistan. Coupled with the fact that the Soviet War in Afganistan was coming to boil when this was published, a British person of the time would have had preconceived notions of Afghanistan.

[@dmnspdn-lz9rg]

The first thing that came to mind when you read the cow poem was that it was a metaphor for misogyny. I haven't read it myself, so I don't know if it was the intent or if it checks out with the rest of the text, but it's what jumps out of the poem to me. I feel like it's meant to be like, a backwards-thinking man commenting on a high-achieving woman's life to bring her down. And so I think it's important to Roald Dahl that the man is foreign; and I don't know enough about the cultural attitudes at the time but it seems significant too that he's from west asia, places that are often thought of as backwards and very specifically misogynistic these days. He's playing with the stereotype of discrimination from Afghanistan and maybe other countries that didn't fit the rhyme, to give his (supposedly) feminist moral a clear antagonist without having to point out that the society he lived in, that surrounded those women and girls he's talking to, was very misogynistic itself. I think it's partly a feature of children's litterature at large, but Roald Dahl very often categorizes the good people and the bad people in his stories. Grandma VS the witches, poor Charlie VS the rich entitled kids, kids VS adults, etc. He can't write people doing something wrong without it being depicted as them falling into the trap of the designated flaw inherent to what they are (see: "rich people are lazy unless they really pay attention", "adults don't get children unless they really pay attention", etc.) So thus the character flaw of Saying A Misogyny must be inherent to "those people over there who treat their women so badly or so I've heard". Instead of it being a collection of beliefs and actions that reinforce the idea of a Category of people that are Other (women/flying cows in this case), it's treated as one fully-formed discriminatory idea that arises because of someone's nature. And thus Roald Dahl categorizes afghans (/foreigners/muslims/the barbarians we're bringing civilization to/etc.) as Other, and the misogyny he associates with them as Other, and distances it from himself and the society he inhabits and identifies with.

[@BlueShadow7777]

This is such a nuanced comment, I love the way you put it into words

[@dmnspdn-lz9rg]

@@BlueShadow7777 Thank you! I'm just kinda writing stuff down cuz trying to make my vague idea fit into a linear train of thought, that's readable and can start a conversation, is the way I develop the thought and check if it makes sense. I took a break in the middle if the comment to check if Afghanistan was indeed a british colony like I thought. If I catch myself spewing idiocies, that's when I can pull the plug before hitting the send button.

[@lizapest8518]

@@dmnspdn-lz9rg The problem with the Afghan man is that the common trope of the time was that brown people wear turbans and turbans look like cow patties this brown man does not have a turban, but the cow supplies him with one.

[@zemufinman1639]

These poems that are versions of fairytales were made into an animated show on Netflix

[@sh0shkabob]

I’m pretty sure my mom confiscated Rhyme Stew from me after I brought it home from the library as a kid lol. Considering his record of unapologetic antisemitism, that poem about “people like our Ratty friend” was probably the first red flag. It was actually kind of shocking to me not to see you address that at all, given that Dahl’s antisemitism is fairly well known.

[@maydaymemer4660]

Itd be a real shame if he fought a war to liberate Jewish people only for them to start an apartheid state that genocides the people they took the land from The backlash against Jewish people would be ridiculous

[@illeatthat]

Censoring books is the worst thing we can do. Any form of censorship is wrong. Including racism, sexism, discrimination: it is important to remember that this places books at a time written when this was acceptable and allows us to see how far we have come. Censoring books is sensoring voices and infringes on ever human beings right to have a voice. You dont have to agree with it, but they have a right to say it - however they choose to say it.

[@Calculator-Idiot]

25:52 P DIDDY?

[@FTZPLTC]

Something that surprises me is how many people are just unaware that works are edited over the years... but they'll passionately insist that these are the books that they dearly love? Agatha Christie fans can call bullshit on the "but it was a different time" mentality - iirc And Then There Were None's original title was ditched within, like, a year or so of release. Also also... there's some general very British anti-American sentiment in the poems - the stereotype being that Americans are vulgar and selfish and don't understand why they can't just have things because they can afford them. I'm wondering it that still comes across - I think a lot of Brits have been thoroughly disabused of the idea that that's a particularly American trait.

[@misopeachy]

I had not realized that was the original title, it was quite a suprise. I can see why it was changed as I would not want to be seen buying book with that on its cover.

[@FTZPLTC]

@@misopeachy - My favourite part is when they changed it to Ten Little Indians. I can just imagine someone being really confident and like "Yeah, let's see anyone get offended by THAT!"

[@misopeachy]

@@FTZPLTC Yes its quite humerous how they changed the title so many times only to continously make it just as offensive. My mother explained to me that the title was the name of the poem that the book is centred around, so I can see why fans might not want to change it. But the new name fits perfectly.

[@maydaymemer4660]

I think editing a title in the author’s lifetime is a bit different from taking out the shock jock elements from a guy who wrote stories specifically to shock children and adults long after he died Its amazing how Roald Dahl wrote “children’s” stories and Christie wrote “adult” stories yet the Dahl fanbase has significantly more critical thinking and less of an aversion to inappropriate elements than the followers of a lady who wrote murder stories Will you request that people go and edit Tupac’s discography too, to remove all the swears? Or remove missions from GTA that involve killing cops?

[@FTZPLTC]

@@maydaymemer4660 - Yeah, I should probably clarify this: I'm not defending a position that I personally hold, I'm just calling out those who act like re-editing of books is some kind of sinister woke conspiracy that, crucially, has only started happening recently. My feeling, generally speaking, is that most works can simply be accompanied with some kind of disclaimer - that they are a bit archaic and maybe use language that is now seen as inappropriate. I'd rather people know that that language used to be used than pretend that it didn't. e.g. There were some Goon Show re-releases that cut out sometimes quite long sections where the entire joke is "Indians be talking certain ways", and while they're spectacularly unfunny, as historical relics, I would rather they be included so that people can understand. The examples you give are strange because they come from media that are specifically labelled as being for adults. That's what the Parental Advisory sticker and the EPSN rating is for, and that's why I *like* content rating so much - because it trolls those minded towards censorship with a compromise that they really don't want, and allows for more extreme content as long as it's clearly labeled. Where I do think there's some nuance though is in children's books, and specifically books aimed at children who are likely to be reading unsupervised - i.e. not stuff their parents will read for them. I think we do have a bit of a responsibility with that stuff, the same way we would with a movie that's rated as being okay for kids to watch unaccompanied. It's part of why Elsagate blew up - not because the content exists at all, but because it's clearly intended for children who aren't likely to be watching with adult supervision. So yeah, that's my position: broadly anti-censorship, pro-content warning, but not opposed to a bit of editorial restraint when it comes to certain media.

[@Thismightjustbeclaypuppington]

I used to love this guys poems more than the books (except for Danny the champion of the world) and read them over and over UNTIL I got my hands on a book of his adult short stories and gained a fear of my own fingers cause one had a kid gamble away his fingers

[@zemufinman1639]

His version of the kings new clothes is the only telling I've ever heard, I to this day don't know how the original goes

[@TheMelloyMan]

Sometimes when I listen to someone read poems or rhyme for long enough every thing sounds like its going to start rhyming like a poem lmao