Rings of Power | The 'Gift' of Immorality

[@marcod53]

This channel is great. Easily the best Tolkien channel I've found

[@TheRedBook]

It's my favourite one too! Thanks, there's some great stuff out there. Being considered the best is really high praise.

[@draoidh6479]

This channel is going to grow and I'm going to say that I saw it grow. "I was there, Gandalf, three thousand years ago, when the red book had less than 500 subscribers..."

[@TheRedBook]

I hope so! Though, I hope it doesn't take 3000 years :D

[@LuisAlbright]

Me too … awesome channel

[@Victor.-.E]

6 months later, our man here is over 10,000 subs. If these trends continue...

[@Mo_alta]

And I will help bear this burden.. as long as it is The Red Book’s to bear…

[@gandalf8216]

We cannot ask more from Frodo.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Another great vid! I had never even thought about the issue of a possible contradiction between the rings giving “immortality” and the inability of any to give immortality to mortals but you handled the topic admirably.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks :) and yeah I was going to originally do this as an inconsistency video, like my guarding of Mount Doom one, but I don't actually think it is one. I guess it's down to the use of that word immortality. There are even people out there who say Elves aren't because we don't know their final fate. I didn't get bogged down by that one word though :D.

[@davelaff73]

Thank you for the work you do. It's so nice to have genuine ANALYSIS among Tolkien content creators rather than basic exposition and conjecture. This is the best channel. Thank you!

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks a lot for the kind words and the generosity David. Very happy to hear you enjoy the content and think so highly of the channel :)

[@user_____M]

The problem with immortality for mortal beings is that the body still decays, it wasn't meant to renew itself over and over past a certain point. Bilbo still grows old while Smeagol's body decays ever more. There's no real cure for aging - part of this is because Melkor corrupted the two trees from which the Sun and the Moon were made, when Men awoke, as well as the planet itself. It's like poisoning yourself when eating and then being constantly blasted by a giant torch when outside the house.

[@thelastbison2241]

Yes, diminishing/fading of elves in middle earth is very similar to the long-term effects of wearing a ring of power by men. Mandos insisting that Earndil die in Aman makes me think Sauron was not entirely lying when he was saying Aman gives immortality.

[@alexshadowfax1119]

Great video, thank you for the in depth, beautiful, and FREE! Content.

[@TheRedBook]

People would pay? ;) Fun to make and I am happy some people enjoy the content!

[@virtualcircle285]

I've watched every LOTR video out there but the way you present makes it seem like I'm finding these same themes for the first time.

[@TheRedBook]

I try to mostly cover stuff I don't see the other channels covering but there will of course be some cross-over from time to time. I noticed a channel far bigger than mine recently doing a video on a subject I made a couple of months ago. It's bound to happen.

[@virtualcircle285]

@@TheRedBook Even the crossover is much more nuanced. For example the idea that Faenor could be redeemed being a debate rather than just quoting one line. The largest LOTR channels, while they are well versed in the written material, seem content with accepting the agreed upon canon verbatim rather than using it as a springboard for discussion.

[@bubblebus1]

No mention of the effect upon the seven given to the dwarf lords. If I recall correctly, the main effect was to lead them towards greed for material wealth but there was no effect on longevity. I'm not sure what happened to the missing four of the seven. Is there a reference text to follow up on this?

[@LeHobbitFan]

Yet another fascinating subject... In a way, the Black Riders after being given these Rings experienced what mortals would (if it were possible) if they went to dwell in Valinor : an unnatural stretching of their lifespans, estranging them from their peers, until they only remained as monstrous, inhuman things.

[@TheRedBook]

I don't understand if you mean the Blessed Realm would bestow some "immortality" on mortals? Bilbo and Frodo would dwell there for a "limited time" according to Letter 325. A "purgatory" of peace and healing. The BIG difference here is that he says they would die of their own desire or free will. If people take that to mean they could live beyond their ordinary lifespan, then that's another debate, but I think Tolkien is really being clear that they wouldn't feel their time there in the same way the Rings of Power have an effect on them. There would be no stretching and pain of existence. When the time comes to go, they would willingly pass. Though, I could be wrong with how I read the comment, correct me if so! :)

[@LeHobbitFan]

@@TheRedBook You're right, I miswrote a bit, my mistake ^^ I was thinking of one of Tolkien's letters where he explores a hypothetical situation : how, even IF mortals could dwell in the Blessed Realm AND benefit from the same immortality as the Elves, it would still end badly for them, because it would be against their very nature. And since Sauron tempted Ar-Pharazôn with the idea of "seizing immortality for himself", I'd imagine he did the same with the nine mortal men who'd later become the Nazghûl. So, I felt like there could be a connection there ^^

[@TheRedBook]

@@LeHobbitFan Yes, definitely. Against their nature would be the best way of putting it. Man isn't meant to share the same gift as Elves, as Men have their own gift. To attempt to change that is against the nature of Mankind, and that's why it's so disastrous! I'd like to think that too, though it's interesting to imagine different scenarios with different Ringwraiths. Sauron offering different benefits for the rings for each of them. It's even possible that Sauron did not know what the Rings would do to Men, because they were made by the Elves for the Elves, we just assume he'd know what would happen, but why? They failed to work the same way with Dwarves. Sauron wanted to dominate their will and the fact they faded and became wraiths was a surprise to him. Not saying that's the case, but it's an interesting thought...

[@LeHobbitFan]

@@TheRedBook I never thought of it that way... It's true Sauron didn't know the effects his rings would have on other beings. Though since three of them were Numenoreans, he may have tempted these ones with immortality, not knowing himself whether or not it was attainable for them... But as you say, it's more interesting to think of Sauron tempting each Ringwraith with something specific to them. After all they were different people coming from different cultures!

[@TheRedBook]

@@LeHobbitFan As three Numenorean Lords, it may have been easily to sway them merely with power as well!

[@thelastbison2241]

Ironically, Sauron probably understand how the physical/magical laws of Arda work better than the Valars. The 9 rings of power shows it is possible to transfer the immortality of the elves to men. It is a crude transfer of immortality that he has not perfected.

[@MasterBombadillo]

Great video, as usual. And about a subject I was recently thinking about yet again. One question that I couldn't find an answer to though was: what was the effect of a Great Ring on the lifespan of Dwarves? We know of at least one line of Dwarves wearing one of these Rings: the heirs of Durin. And yet, many of its bearers died a natural death, at an age one would expect a Dwarf's life to be over. Are the souls of the Dwarves so indomitable that even their lifespan can't be altered by one of these Rings, not even existing without dying?

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks, nice to see you back! With the way the Rings of Power work on Men, the Dwarves would be unaffected. The reason being that the Dwarves would not fade, they would not fall and become shadows under the greater shadow. The stretching of life is a "side effect" of Men wearing it even though Gandalf says "mortals"...he is definitely talking about the race of Men (Hobbits obviously included). Their motives for having the rings, their nature, all factors in how long it would take them to eventually fade..but that wouldn't happen with Dwarves. The Silmarillion states that Dwarves were harder to tame "nor can they be turned to shadows". Just to back up all I've said...Durin's Folk as part of the Appendices outright states "they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it."

[@MasterBombadillo]

@@TheRedBook God damnit, I somehow completely missed that part. Indeed, your line of thinking is roughly the same as my own in this matter, but I can't belief a quote confirming it all was hiding right under my very nose!

[@TheRedBook]

@@MasterBombadillo haha its easily done, there's a lot out there to quote!

[@nfragala]

I'm rereading The Lays of Beleriand and I'd really like to see a video on the prose versions of Tolkien's works. They made me appreciate the stories in an entirely different way.

[@Advancedgod]

Do you mean the poetic versions?

[@nfragala]

@@Advancedgod Woops, yes- the poetic versions. The Beren & Luthien poetic version in particular.

[@sainiharika]

Best video n original content. Literally awesome 👏.

[@Ka_T_ya]

It makes me wonder. In this case if it’s a stretching of the spirit and thus suffering,how it is different than the fading of the elves? The mortality/immortality topic is probably the one that bugs me the most in Tolkien’s writing 😅 and seeing the genesis of him trying to figure it out from History Of Middle-earth,to the published version of Silmarilion,I feel like he couldn’t fully figure it out.

[@whyukraine]

Were the Elves truly Immortal? I think not. Tolkien makes mention of them 'fading,' diminishing,' and 'forgetting.' At some point when they've faded & forgotten enough, I propose they all suffer Arwen's fate according to Elrond. Except in Valinor, which is why the Valar want to bring them there.

[@TheRedBook]

They are still immortal and their spirits remain in the world as long as the world lasts. After that, who knows? Serial longevity might be the term but the terms you are using really refer to their physical bodies. They still exist in the world even after fading and diminishing.

[@raydavison4288]

As for "the gift of men," couldn't the valar at least send an emissary(Eonwe maybe)to Numenor to tell men that they(the valar)did not have the power to bestow immortality on them?

[@TheRedBook]

Eonwe had already interacted with the Numenoreans. Men are mortal, so eventually the memory of what he said would fade. Would he have to keep coming back? At what point would they think he was deceiving them and that they just didn't want to bestow immortality or "share" it with them?

[@MistaGify]

One of the things that sets Middle-Earth apart from all fantasy worlds thereafter: A highly nuanced and metaphysical deconstruction of immortality compared to mortality. Even now, when considering whether I would be an elf or man in Middle-Earth, I don’t know what to choose. The immediate gains of elfdom for the whole span of Arda’s losses? Or the same failings of the human condition, but in a world where there is definitely something better beyond? What did you think happens if a human wears one of the three elven rings? They were not meant to confer immortality and power, but to heal and preserve. Would a mortal still be doomed to be stretched thing as a side effect? If they were of sufficient stature like Aragorn, could they access some power and downplay the trade-offs for a while?

[@TheRedBook]

I have thought about that too, and I don't know which I would pick. A lot of people seem to jump at the idea of being an immortal Elf, but there's a great sorrow that comes with that. Elves wouldn't have decided to go ahead with Rings of Power if they were completely at peace with who they were. There is that grief at the decay of everything around you as you remain a part of the world, never being able to leave it. But, even the greatest of the greatest men still have limited time and still meet their end. Even if the stories of a place beyond the Circles of the World are true, it is still an unknown, and that leads to the fear. It's not an easy choice in my opinion. I tend to still believe Gandalf. Even with the Three being unsullied, they are still Great Rings and are still perlious. We have the debate over invisibility, as they do not confer invisibility, so would you fade? Or would he just mean invisibility for Elves? It's a brief remark and leads to more questions. Even the Three are not wholly good, and if there was some delay, it would just be that...a delay, you would still suffer under their power in the end because they were never meant for mortals. I agree about the invisibility, but not the power. They are still Rings of Power, great artefacts beyond our understanding, perilous objects even with good intentions...

[@MistaGify]

@@TheRedBook You also don’t know which one to pick?! I suspect many are like us, being unable to choose between elves and men. Once again, the gains and trade-offs of both races are quite evenly-stacked, a testament to Tolkien’s writing on the cost of immortality and the beauty of mortality. As for The Three, I believe only The One Ring and the rings of The Nine would confer invisibility. For a human, it is my personal theory that wearing 1 of The Three would grant one extraordinary insight and perception. Similar to Frodo by the quest’s end and Denethor using the Palanthir. It will also ‘heal’ and ‘preserve’ you as intended, making you age gracefully, be resistant and immune to poison and sickness. But in due time, ‘preservation’ will mean extending your mortal lifespan until weariness. But unlike The One and The Nine, all wilfully intended to corrupt, The Three will do this as a side-effect of a mortal wearing them, after some time of prolonged usage.

[@TheRedBook]

@@MistaGify - I'm guessing a lot think of immortality and all the benefits, but none of the drawbacks. Probably because it's something we don't have! Yes, I do think the Three would eventually corrupt but not by design, as you say, but just due to the nature of the rings themselves - that forbidden "power" we are never meant to experience. Interesting thoughts about what the 3 would do though, I'll need to have a think about that.

[@MistaGify]

@@TheRedBook It is the nature of humanity, as Tolkien wrote, to become discontent and ungrateful for what we have. Not only is this true of the Numenoreans. I come from Singapore, a country where 1 ruling party has transformed us from third world to first in just half a century. While there are definitely issues, I notice my fellow Singaporeans frequently complain out of proportion, putting false standards on the ruling party because they’ve been around for so long. As for The Three, being unaffected by Sauron directly, I believe they would have worked as intended for humans. This means that, if Gondor’s Ruling Stewards had 1 of them, the physical beauty and integrity of the buildings, as well as the surrounding natural regions, would all be pristine. In the hands of someone like Denethor II, it would boost their leadership prowess and military effectiveness from within Minas Tirith, since defending against Sauron should count as ‘preservation’. But it would also define the tenure of its wearers. Rulers would have a system where they know they are being weary and holding out too long, then having to give up the ring to their successor. Quite a theory, eh?!

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

@@TheRedBook So if Galadriel gave Nenya to Aragorn (The War of the Ring), what could he do with it? Not challenge Sauron, obviously, nor would it be much use building and preserving the Reunited Kingdom after the One was gone. I wonder what Tolkien possibly meant when he wrote about people in Gondor referring to Aragorn as the lord of the ring(s)? It was only mentioned once in early drafts, but still.

[@ellanenish5999]

Mortality and Imortality are both blessings and cursed

[@TheRedBook]

Yes, at times both kindreds have lamented their own fate, perhaps not realising that the other side isn't as perfect as they may have imagined!

[@MasterBombadillo]

@@TheRedBook Indeed. That's human nature. Our own suffering is most apparent to us, and we tend to focus on this suffering. So much so that if we think we see a solution, we will rarely see the downsides of it. And if we do see them, we don't fully grasp their implications and tend to downplay the bad ones.

[@misterwhalrus7334]

morgoth at work, his marring makes immortality unbearable, and mortality a curse

[@HistoryHubChannel]

How do dwarfs fit into this then? Created by Aule and given life by Eru, but they die too…

[@TheRedBook]

The nature of Dwarves means they cannot fade, meaning Rings of Power wouldn't 'extend' their lives. They are affected in other ways with Great Rings.

[@alexsell9219]

The second music of the Ainur that involves the freewill of men? I think the second music is going to be Jazz lol

[@beatleblev]

Excellent video! I'm curious about Gollum. He possesses the One Ring for nearly 500 years, but does not fade. He murdered someone to possess the Ring so morality and good character do not help Sméagol resist the corruption of the Ring, but he does not fade in almost five centuries of possession. Then, a tricksy Baggins steals his Precious in 2941 TA, but he does not grow old and die. Is Gollum stuck in the middle of the fading process? In other words, is Gollum too far gone to be healed by separation from the Ring, but on the other hand, not completed the fading process to become an invisible wraith? We see Bilbo age in the 17 years since Frodo has seen him in Fellowship, but this does not happen to Gollum as far as we know. Is his life now wholly bound to the Ring? On a different note, do you think the Witch King was allowed to keep his Ring of Power when he was the King of Angmar in the early Third Age? Sauron is hiding out in Dol Guldor and the Witch King is serving as the overt face of the Shadow in Middle Earth. Do you think Sauron took the Nine as soon as its wearer faded, or did Sauron only take the Nine (for his nine fingers?) after his reoccupation of Mordor in 2951?

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you :) And let's go through each point... In the last quote of my video, Gandalf makes it clear that if someone often uses the Ring to make himself invisible...he fades, then becomes invisible permanently. Gollum did not use the ring often. The Hobbit tells us that he "used to wear it at first", then it started to tire him, so he kept it in a pouch, then it galled him, so he hit it in a hole, and kept going back to it cause he couldn't part with it. He wouldn't fade just by having the ring near him, or by holding it. Plus, he was naturally quite resistant and would resist longer than the Wise would even believe, but the main reason is that he never used it enough to fade, but still suffered the horrid effects of long life. As for aging when being parted. Gandalf says that it might take a long while for the influence to wear off, he might live on for years quite happily, just as when he parted with it. Though, Gollum was bound as you say, so dependent on it, focused on getting it. His relationship with the ring was quite different when compared to Bilbo. We don't know a lot about when Sauron reclaimed those rings. By the time of LotR, definitely. He could have taken them any time when they fell under his dominion because their wills were now his to control. Many think he took them back when he returned after losing the One. That's a safe assumption, but he clearly could have just reclaimed them at a time when he was able to command them to do as he willed. There's not enough out there for me to get specific with the WK unfortunately!

[@beatleblev]

@@TheRedBook Thanks for the response! I concur. Bilbo reduces his ring use significantly after the Quest for Erebor and Gandalf gives Frodo explicit warnings about further usage of the Ring. Poor Gollum, he's not a wraith, but neither is he truly a hobbit anymore. He serves as both Frodo's shadow self and his inevitable future in the story should he abandon the task set before him.

[@TheRedBook]

@@beatleblev You're right. Guiding them into Mordor, Frodo would only need to glance at Gollum and be resolved in his desire to destroy the ring. But it is as Tolkien would want, we are to pity Gollum, and I think most readers do.

[@vinyamar3604]

It would be interesting to see if Tolkien ever thought about Sauron redistributing the 9 rings to other leaders AFTER he had gained control of the Ringwraiths. I wonder if Tolkien ever considered this, it could’ve made for some interesting events happening in the East. But just a fan theory if anything 🙂

[@lonniewhite3905]

If elves are immortal and orks are are elves twisted by morgoth then are they immortal. If not then why.?

[@TheRedBook]

I cover this in my video "How long do Orcs live"

[@lonniewhite3905]

@@TheRedBook ok

[@thelastbison2241]

It is funny because I would be amazed if immortality is not discovered within the next 500 years

[@Aelorick]

At the end I had the impression that you (The Red Book) think that all rings were made for the elves, even the seven and the nine. Am I wrong? One other thing, dwarves are mortal and the rings didn't give them (fake) immortality. I'd like to hear your thoughts in that matter. Maybe in a future video. Cheers and great videos!

[@TheRedBook]

Hello Raphael. Yes, that is correct. The rings later known as the Seven and the Nine were not made specifically for Dwarves and Men. They were just later given to them. All were "immortal" great rings concerning the immortal Elves. And I will definitely be covering the nature of Dwarves in relation to the rings too that's on my very big to do list!

[@danepatterson8107]

Tolkien is just too inconsistent in terms of what "immortality" is (my opinion). It's one of his weakest structures. If mortality is a gift when compared to Elves, it is absolutely unclear to the race of Men, who gladly accepted longer life as Numenoreans and who then tried to take immortality by force, however impossible that may have been. To call dying a gift is to make it preferable to something else, and there is simply no reason to desire death for one's self fulfillment given all we know about Arda/Tolkien's universe. Death is emptiness. Nothing is ever presented to make one find peace in the concept of Death in Tolkien's universe. I mean, why did Elrond choose immortality, and doesn't he seem better off than his other brother who chose to be Man?

[@Elia-fn8jv]

Because if you dont experience immortality,you cant experience the sorrow that eventually comes with it,Elrond made that decision because he thought that he could "endure" immortality and on the contrary his brother Elros thought that he could not. Rather than "inconsistency" i think its better to call it "unjusctice"(that in my opinion its not a writing mistake but a way to represent the world no t being just) against men not having a choice about death,they dont know why or how it happens and not knowing for certain what lies beyond it

[@mos4396]

👍

[@TheRedBook]

👍

[@durendalarcas8209]

Wow.... It's too bad Tolkien didn't write more books set in Middle Earth there is so much potential in the setting.

[@alanwake6960]

so not true immortality but close enough

[@TheRedBook]

I'd probably say "faux immortality"