Númenor | The Nature of Melkor Worship

[@LeHobbitFan]

The Númenorean death-cult is such a horrifying concept to me: imagine how the Elves must have felt seeing the descendants of their ancient allies bowing down to the Ennemy of the World, offering their own brothers and sisters to be slain and burned... The worthy always seem to fall, and the mighty end up corrupted, like Fëanor long ago.

[@englishlady9797]

I can imagine that was why Elrond seemed to be so close to Elendil and his sons, because they were some of the faithful who survived, but must have been so devestated when Isildur did not destroy the One Ring.

[@indio4-215]

Melkor was the ultimate example of the worthy and the mighty succumbing to their worst instincts due to his status as the greatest of the Valar by far (and Ainur in general, obviously) in his prime before he grew as vastly diminished as he did throughout the countless ages and therefore, the strongest power under Eru (Melkor also likely being designated to be the Great King of the Valar and of Arda by Eru before his rebellion). Fëanor strikes me as a "Melkor replica" due to obvious reasons, and not just because they both were the greatest of their respective species (talent, skill, intelligence, strength, etc.). But I do find the whole Melkor worship practiced by most of the Númeróreans to be very grim, saddening, and chilling.

[@Vikingr4Jesus5919]

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. And the Numenoreans were the most powerful Men to have ever lived in Arda.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thanks for another excellent look at a fascinating aspect of Middle-earth's history. Typical that Ar-Pharazon objects, not to Sauron's blasphemy and cruelty or to the threat he poses, but to him taking Pharazon's 'rightful' title 😂 if ever a character were optimally positioned to fall into Melkorism it was him.

[@TheRedBook]

A sure sign that the fall began way before Ar-Pharazon. Gone were the days that the Numenoreans would sail across the sea to aid Middle-earth against him. Now, as you say, it was about rightful claims to lord over Men. Sauron must have been giddy when he realised what kind of man Ar-Pharazon was.

[@artemismoonbow2475]

Another grand slam. Until now, I never considered that no matter how much faith I have personally developed or how much I believe I have overcome the fear of mortality, that if I met an immortal, maximally beautiful, supremely wise, profoundly dignified, elegantly graceful being that said they knew my distant ancestor and was like, "whelp, I'll tell your descendent 40 generations removed you said hello dear," that I might become envious and bitter. Slow rot is how corruption works.

[@claudius_drusus_]

Originally men did not fear death. Melkor introduced fear of it into Middle Earth.

[@frankteunissen6118]

This shows that the Valar were right in asking the Elves the cross the Sea and come to dwell in Valinor with them. Elves and Men cannot live side by side in the same world for the reason you describe. I have often been puzzled by the Elves’ contention that Men are to blame for many of the world’s ills when it seems to me that it was the Elves who ignored the Valar’s invitation to Valinor and stayed in Middle-Earth or returned to it that were the main cause of trouble. It weren’t Men who started wars over the Silmarils. They were caught up in them and suffered greatly as a consequence.

[@artemismoonbow2475]

@@frankteunissen6118 Elves refused to leave Eden and men left way to soon.

[@rickythe2nd63]

So true. Well said. We must lean on the Everlasting hope that only faith can afford us mere mortals. What a paradoxical existence we have, yet one made more rich, more beautiful, more contemplative with sublime art such as the works of Tolkien and the spiritual/ philosophical nuances it evokes.

[@claudius_drusus_]

@@frankteunissen6118 the elves also suffered from Acedia.

[@isthatjackson]

I thoroughly enjoy how you add a “spookier” element to the Legendarium. Quality content as always.

[@TheRedBook]

Almost happened by accident based on the subject matter of my first group of videos - but it seems to be the style now for this channel :D

[@ironblue4593]

I don't know how but your videos have a "horror" or "scary" vibe, quite different from other Tolkien channels, that is great and one of the reasons is why I started watching, awesome video btw

[@TheRedBook]

I really like exploring darker topics and themes, so the style suits that. I find it weird (aesthetically) if another video is talking about something so dark but the video is really colourful and the narration is too upbeat. These dark videos suit my voice better I think! Just in my opinion.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks again for watching! More to come from Númenor in the future. The downfall being one of my favourite topics to discuss. Any interesting questions regarding Númenor? Let me know. Can't hurt to add more of your suggestions to the ever-growing terrifying list of ideas so far! Interested in supporting the channel? www.patreon.com/TheRedBook

[@tominiowa2513]

Terrifying idea - explain the names in _Farmer Giles of Ham_ .

[@Enerdhil]

I really missed watching your videos, Steven. Sorry I disappeared for over a month, but of all the things that I could have given up for Lent this year, I chose Tolkien videos. Now I have a a lot of catching up to do. I noticed that you have over 11,000 subs now. That's pretty good, but I think there are tens of thousands or more Tolkien fans who would love to view your content. Hopefully, the algorithms will start working like they should and push prospective subs to your channel.

[@MistaGify]

Another great video! I've said it before and I'll say it again: the biggest lost opportunity of the Legendarium were The Second Age and Numenor. I cannot even begin to imagine the utter dystopia an already corrupt Numenor became under his watch. I also can't imagine how it must have been in the second half of Numenor's history, as their collective lifespans fell. As you stated, it must have made the Numenoreans increasingly bitter, knowing Elves are immortal and can remember their distant ancestors, while they themselves must age and pass away. Can you imagine how Numenorean families and societies were like?! The older and more pious generations urging their descendants to return to godliness, helpless as every new generation ages and dies faster, all while succumbing to fear of death and forgotteting the past themselves. What a dreadful thought, especially when our real-world is undergoing rapidly ageing everywhere. On a more positive note, you should talk about the Numenoreans as mariners. It is another lost opportunity that Tolkien had nothing to say about the oceans of Middle-Earth besides being vast bodies to cross. How must it have been like to sail over a flat world? How is navigation like, especially with stars, when the world is not round but flat? How was it like to reach the physical end of the world in the East, and see a door where the sun itself exists into another dimension to bring on night?! When Tolkien said there will never be mariners like the Numenoreans again, I believe he was just talking big words about their overall skills; in reality, it meant there will never be again sailors who know anything about navigating the oceans of a flat world!

[@TheRedBook]

@@Enerdhil - Giving up Tolkien for a month :O couldn't do it! And yeah the growth has been almost non existent for a while - growing at a snail's pace! I know a lot of others would like it but it's nigh impossible to force YT to show them it. Many seem to just stick to 3 or 4 other channels.

[@alanmike6883]

@@TheRedBook Not me man. Though I've just noticed that yt must've unsubscribed me. Its happened to me before in the past like mr obvious, media zealot, and others. Yet I always get the CNN and BBC shoved in my face lol I have a question for you mate. How big do you think the earlier numenorian families were compared to near the end when they were corrupted? Is there a rough estimate of how many numenorians settled in middle earth?

[@anchuisneoir3973]

Great stuff. I have always wondered what exactly Sauron did to get from being a prisoner to being the King's closest advisor.

[@TheRedBook]

Tolkien never goes into that detail but I like to think that since he was a hostage and prize, the King himself probably brought Sauron before him, to maybe try and Lord over him but Sauron would say the right things and over time the King would seek out Sauron to hear more from him. Becoming corrupted while still thinking he was in charge of the situation.

[@thebrotherskrynn]

The death-cult reminds me of that of the Aztecs which has always terrified me, since I had to read the primary sources on their religious practices in school. Frankly, I always imagined similar though not quite so barbarous practices as being encouraged by Sauron. I always took Sauron's decision to have the Numenor worship Melkor a sign of Sauron's continued devotion to his ancient master as well as a sign of his political acumen as you pointed out. Very well done Steven, as always your video is flawless.

[@beatleblev]

The Akallabeth is for me a reminder that there is no amount of blessings that a person or people can be given that can inure them from corruption. The grass under their feet, the trees that shaded their heads, fed their bellies, and that were made into their ships, the island itself was made by the Ainur as a gift to the men of the West. If there were a place outside of Aman where one would think this sort of apostacy impossible, it would be Numenor. Instead, the daily reminder of the immortality of the the Firstborn gave the Melkor element inside the hearts of Numenor a sure purchase, to overwhelm their nobility and strengthen their pride primed for the arrival of the Prophet of Melkor. Sauron the Deceiver just confirmed and amplified the fear and envy that lurked in the hearts of the Kingsmen. He then turned their fear into madness and their envy into violence until, in what has to be the most unprecedented incidence of 'biting the hand that feeds you,' the great Armada of Numenor sails West to war with the Valar. The bit at the end is where the madness kicks in. Have you ever worked really hard to find a gift for someone you love that fit them perfectly only to have them reject it? It was that feeling that Sauron was aiming, to spite Eru and the Valar. I'm sure Sauron threw a celebratory black mass on the day the building of monuments for the dead outpaced the construction of structures for the living. By then, Numenor knew in their hearts that the grass was always greener in Valinor and threw the Gift of Eru back in His face. The Akallabeth hints that Eru gives Pharazon and Pals their wish in spades. There the are, there they have been, and there they will be, with nothing but time to think about what they have done until the Last Day. No others of the Secondborn will be more grateful to receive the Gift of Death than Pharazon the Golden (He doesn't deserve an Ar-).

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Tolkien wasn’t a fan of Lewis delving into the inner working of evil with the Screwtape Letters, but it has to be admitted that he had a fairly good understanding of such things himself, as this discussion shows.

[@chrisp.9380]

It's possible to research and know a lot about something, but still not believe in or condone it. There are athiest theological scholars, so I don't see why Tolkien couldn't know about things outside of his religion as well.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

@@chrisp.9380 you mistake my point. Lewis was also a Christian. Tolkien’s concern was not that he knew *about* evil, but that he was trying to think like an evil person.

[@chrisp.9380]

@Cannabis Dreams Maybe lay off the cannabis.

[@chrisp.9380]

@@TolkienLorePodcast I'm aware of Lewis's conversion to Christianity due to his friendship with Tolkein. I was just using an Athiest studying theology as an example, not as a direct reference to Lewis. Also, a person can get into character and try to see from the perspective of those with ill intentions while still not being anything like those people themselves. I'm sure Tolkien's concern came from a place of caring, but C.S. Lewis seems like he was a good man who had no intention of embracing the content of the Screwtape Letters.

[@iainmcleod9190]

As a young reader, I always found Sauron’s submission to Ar-Pharazon to be problematic (why would a ‘god’, who appeared so powerful in the text of LOTR, kneel before a man?) This led me to the question - was the assault on Valinor his intention all along? In other words, was his submission before Ar-Pharazon a demonstration to the proud king that gods could be subdued by men, therefore making the attempt on Valinor more feasible? Really interesting video!

[@Crafty_Spirit]

The way I understand the text is that Sauron had the options of either feigning submission or retreating into the wild, as he underestimated the might of the Numenorean armada. Between the arrival of the Numenoreans and them reaching Mordor, some weeks passed, and I think Sauron was warming up to the idea of acting more like in his role as Annatar again. And faked submission was the only way to lead Ar-Pharazôn further on his path of selfdestruction. I would speculate that he came up with his plan after his capture since I doubt that he was already aware of the king's psychological weaknesses beforehand. You make a really great point that Sauron - willingly or not - in his kneeling fed Numenorean hybris and set a precedent that you seemingly could overpower the Ainur.

[@TheRedBook]

Sauron had not planned that far ahead. He would have wanted to have defeated the Numenoreans as they arrived. He is just remarkably good at adapting and had the time and patience to defeat them a different way when his servants abandoned him.

[@evenstar1608]

Correction: Sauron is not a god. He is an istari. (an angel in the bible) What he did is a deception for Ar-Pharazon.

[@TheRedBook]

He's a Maia. An Istar is a Wizard. The Wizards being a particular group of incarnated Maiar.

[@evenstar1608]

@@TheRedBook What I understand of Wizards are a disguised of istari on Middle Earth. Isnt?

[@stevenkent1979]

Amazing job on this channel. I subscribed soon after you launched and didn’t think it could get any better. I’ve been noticing some changes and enhancements you’ve been making and it’s just superb. I love the ambience, narrating, artwork and the subtle lean to the more heavier or darker topics you cover. Keep it up guys, you have the best Tolkien themed channel out there.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks, Stephen. Always glad to here my channel is a favourite. And yeah, I think my early videos are a bit rough now but I'm always trying to make each video better as I go. As I come up to a year on YT, I quite like how my current videos look and feel.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

Me again... So I had been thinking that Sauron intentionally did all these as a plan from the start. He was angered+ knowing that the Nùmenoreans could cause him some much trouble that he figured all of this out at that time, not wasting a minute. Of course he could bend Ar-Pharaôn to his will...piece of cake. Piss off the Elves and stick the finger to the Ainu. Maybe, like you stated, Sauron did not expect a full on, permanent assault by Eru but at least he still had his Ring and he didn't have Nùmenoreans to worry with ( or so he thought). Great story!

[@alejandromaldonado6159]

@@PleaseNThankYou Well the elf-friends would exile themselves from Numenor and founded the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor which did heckled him for the rest of his existence.

[@cavetroll666]

man i listen to this channel while working its so good :)

[@neant2046]

I've watched it twice, very well done! I love that fiery frame around the text, it looks enchanting :) Speaking of the main reason of Sauron's success in corrupting Numenor, I find it amazing, that so many different stories in the Legendarium have one main idea behind them: unwillingness to follow the natural cycle of life. Literally every race made this mistake: Valar, Maiar, Elves, Men (hobbits included), Dwarves, even Orcs. Whatever it was - an attempt to slow down the natural process of decay, or unwillingness to let go of your creations, wealth, power, authority, habbits, or the order of things one is used to - excess desire to control and preserve, even when started with good intentions, always ended in a bitter lesson. Damn genius...

[@saunajaakko699]

What struct me deeply in Akhallabeth's text was details of numenorian everyday life changing from blissful, to resenting, anxious and doubtful and ultimately into something vile and sinister. They became obsessively hedonistic and full of vanity with parties and alcohol trying to live their life the fullest, while also display their glory to others, but with a constant gnawing dread of reality, of their mortality. Jealousy and cruelty spiraled out of control, causing citizens to even commit impulsive murder for petty reasons. I wouldn't be surprised if they even branded their personal enemies as conspirators who plotted with faithful, to report them for kings men to get them sacrificed in the temple.

[@TheRedBook]

That's exactly how I view it. All attempts to impress this new priest and their new god. Like the Salem witch-trials.

[@yvonnemason9137]

Great stuff! You clearly explain a lot of things I haven't previously noticed or understood. The artwork is lovely too. I'm glad to have stumbled across your channel! :)

[@TheRedBook]

Happy you have found it :D I've had a nice little boost recently with new viewers.

[@Enerdhil]

This was a very dark, but fascinating video. It is so clear that Sauron understood the minds of men in power, yet they never understood his mind. I am sure that as Ar-Pharazon and his men were being swallowed up by the land around them, they were not cursing Sauron's treachery.

[@tominiowa2513]

I have wondered which side Ar-Pharazôn and his men will fight on in the Dagor Dagorath?

[@TheRedBook]

Good point, Tolkien usually mentions when someone realises their folly at the end and he doesn't with them. They were probably cursing the Valar as they were taken. Though, it's interesting to think of their own purgatory in the caves of the forgotten. In my own write up of Dagor Dagorath I have them side with the Valar, after finally understanding where they went wrong.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Excellent take, as always.😁

[@Enerdhil]

@@tominiowa2513 It all depends on whether they realize that they were wrong and if they repent of their actions and ask Eru for forgiveness. How will they react during their long state of purgatory? Who knows?

[@christiansky942]

This video is much appreciated. The concept of Melkor worship by the Numenoreans has intrigued me since my youth

[@TheRedBook]

Do you have any other questions about it? It's one of my favourite topics :)

[@Savrho]

The quality of this channel has increased so much! I love the way you present all the information, and your voice is perfect for this. You sound like what I imagine a gondorian scholar would sound like xD Incredible content, thank you!

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks a lot :D I like that idea - If I had some crazy editing skills I'd maybe edit the intros of videos to make it seem like I was some in-world scholar telling the tales - but alas, I am not that good!

[@istari0]

I love videos on Númenor. I understand its inspiration from the legend of Atlantis but I see an element from the Arthurian legends in it as well. Númenor, like Camelot, represented a golden age of men but one that eventually fell. Even if Sauron was never taken to Númenor, the Númenoreans would eventually launched a war of conquest to conquer Middle-Earth and I think that could have also resulted in a civil war within Númenor and its colonies with the Faithful openly taking up arms to try and defend not only themselves but the elves and dwarves.

[@Ka_T_ya]

You are definitely the best Tolkien channel out there ! It’s beyond me why you are not more widely known , but I’m so glad to have found you !

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you :D I think it's because I don't really do any marketing or promotion...at all. Due to lack of time, effort, and patience (I think). I also don't do "history of" or "explained" videos for those who like Middle-earth but don't want to read about it. I'd probably get more views if I went that route!

[@Ka_T_ya]

@@TheRedBook Yeah, I was wondering about that. I see other channels promote their content on fb,Twitter,other social media ,from one side. From another,most of the popular ones make like digests of the info for the newbies or the too lazy to read. While their content is not bad and it has its purposes ,it’s nowhere near to your depth of analyzes ( which I find so enjoyable ). But sadly ,I think the wider audience is not much into deep analyzes but simplification of the material … But I really hope you won’t change ,we might be a minority,but we do need you !

[@TheRedBook]

Na, I certainly won't change. I make the content that interests me. I enjoy writing it and I'd get seriously bored if I was just making "history of " videos. I don't like I'd last a few months doing that! It would be cool if the channel got bigger but the people who watch it tend to enjoy it a lot, which makes it worth it too!

[@Lon_Suder]

Another outstanding video!!

[@yorktown99]

I am astonished at how good this video is.

[@henrifinstrom2555]

Your channel is a treasure, thank you.

[@drewp9819]

Citing in real time as the video plays the artists who created the images is a great idea

[@Marcus-ki1en]

Chilling. So well done. Thank you.

[@TheRedBook]

Very welcome :)

[@lordofthehouseofstormcrows8615]

loved it!! Hey Mellon, keep up the great work! I have missed your videos.

[@grzegorzkuczek5742]

As usual a flawless content. 10/10

[@josebarros582]

great work, as always

[@Poigmothoin]

Great video ! Definitely an underrated LOTR channel

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks! :D

[@jamief1263]

I have said this a few times, men were treated as 2nd favourites to the elves. Numenor was nice, but it was the equivalent of a son being given a small bungalow just outside of the grounds of a beautiful and vast mansion and grounds, which was given to your brother by your father. You are not allowed to go on the grounds on your back door, but must go into the dangerous wilderness out your front door. Worse still the reason why the world outside your front door was dangerous is because your fathers brother is a maniac and rules it and your father refuses to get his brother in line, even though he has to power to do so. The Valar waged two wars on behalf of the elves on Melkor, they built a garden of Eden for the Elves and the Elves know exactly where they go, when they die. The Noldor rebelled and were forgiven. Men on the other hand, men had to break Melkors influence on them by themselves. No guides were sent, no rescue, no help. They do not know what happens to them when they die, they grow old, get diseases and die. The three big houses of men were practically wiped out by the end of the 1st age, because men got caught up in the elves wars. A man slew the father of dragons, a man rescued a jewel from Melkor and a man called for aid on behalf of the elves that murdered his people and took his sons prisoner. If I were a man in the 1st or 2nd age, I wouldn’t really be fond of the Valar, the Elves or Eru.

[@jonystyles9473]

bro if you re implying that Elves were the only stonger faction... think again, for some, Numenor was the greatest realm in all ME and the strongest and more populated faction ever to exist in Arda... i know the Elves were extraordinary, but the Numenoreans were said to be like living machines, tall and strong in theyre greatest day, could wipe out any Elf faction

[@jamief1263]

@@jonystyles9473 I think you missed the point, I wasn’t make a case about which faction was strongest, I was making a statement that men in tolkiens world are not a favoured by the Valar as Elves. Elves were given help, comfort and protection, where men were left to defend and protect themselves. My understanding is that by the time of Numenors fall, they were one of, if not the greatest military power to have existed in middle earth.

[@aaronwright6340]

well said, I agree with you

[@TheRedBook]

A lot of this has to do with the lack of understanding of Men on the part of the Valar and the freedom gifted to Men. The Valar feel less inclined to interfere with Men because they could be interfering with the plan of Eru, the freedom for Men to shape their own destiny. I still think that Manwe could have (maybe he did?) sought counsel in his thought with Eru when it came to assistance for Men. Elves are less of a challenge (though still a challenge) for the Valar. They still messed up in numerous ways with them. Attempting such intervention for Men could have been even more of a disaster. One thing you say is interesting though and probably by design "Men on the other hand, men had to break Melkors influence on them by themselves". By doing so, they show that they are the greater, they fight and suffer for ages until inheriting the world - the plan of Eru all along. I like discussing the action or inaction of the Valar though, this sort of thing will appear in future videos.

[@jamief1263]

@@TheRedBook I understand that, it is said that the Children or Eru, the Valar love the Elves the most, but it is implied that Eru loves the race of men most and that death is his gift to men, although it can be a bitter one to receive. Men have to have a lot more blind faith than the Elves, as they do not know what awaits them in death. You can see how manipulators like Sauron and Melkor could use this uncertainty to cast doubt and hate in the hearts of men. Therefore blind faith is a lot to ask. I am not implying the Numenoreans were correct to rebel, but I can certainly understand why even the most faithful, must have had some seed of doubt in their minds.

[@TalesoftheRings]

Amazing storytelling bro 🙏

[@Silentskip001]

Very well done!

[@CarterBlackburn]

Engagement comment. I enjoyed the video. Commenting for the algorithm. Please keep making more.

[@jevonenoe5189]

Love these videos please keep doing more of them.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks :) , plenty more on the way!

[@wojito]

This video was amazing, thank you.

[@martystrasinger3801]

Bravo, very well done.

[@fifi-trixibell1888]

Excellent as always. 👍🏻

[@jamiegregg9211]

awesome vid really enjoyed it mate keep up with the kickass content

[@alexshadowfax1119]

So this may be an obvious question RB, but how did Sauron and presumably Melkor understand the fear of death that men possessed, but the rest of the Valar were shocked or puzzled that a few hundred years wasn't enough for the Numenorians? I know they are higher Angels and aren't expected to understand the trivial worries of mere men, but Melkor or Sauron understood this concept? Anyways, great video. Have a great day everyone.

[@GreatGreebo]

Thank you for the video. It’s great! (New subscriber here)

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks for subscribing :D hope you enjoy the content!

[@philipwest4553]

I hope you gain a good number of subscribers. Your videos are good.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you :D

[@shanenolan8252]

Cheers mate , numenor is a fascinating subject. And the downfall especially. The religious nature of numenor before sauron sounds like Japanese shinto

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

This is good stuff. Tolkien had some deep ideas on morality, and the nature of evil. He was very successful in communicating them , without being a preacher, like for example Lewis. He makes us think of the meaning of mortality. You too are a good communicator who makes me think. Today I have subscribed, don’t want you being a wee channel for ever. Thanks and keep up the good work.

[@TheRedBook]

You comment on most videos, I thought you'd have already subscribed :D And I agree with the Lewis comparison - usually a bit too on the nose with the morality message. Tolkien was often subtle enough that people can actually debate what things actually mean.

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

@@TheRedBook it was an oversight on my part. after the comment about the critical drinker I am going to guess you are from Ayrshire, I last lived in Scotland in 1967 and my ear for different accents might not be as good as it was.

[@TheRedBook]

@@joseraulcapablanca8564 You are the first to guess correctly!

[@cerberus6654]

This was really great! Though, much as a Scottish accent makes me weak at the knees, it was unintentionally funny to hear: "And the men of the Ale took Suh-ron back to Nuh-mennor from Middle Airth. Even the Fusstborn recognized the power of his rings to PREZAIRVE..." Aye, Red Book, ye might try a wee bit harder to nae sound so Gaelic about it all!

[@TheRedBook]

I sound nothing like that lol. Reads more like the cast of Outlander. Are you American?

[@drewweirwalker2033]

Great stuff!

[@jimbombadill]

exellent and chilling video, the nature of humans is realy put to its edge in the story of numenor, both methaforicly and direct. Sauron realy brought it home, since as long as the numenorean world would have existed there was no hope for him ruling middle-earth and he could never have ended it with force of war.

[@spyrosblt3320]

literal chills

[@aaronwright6340]

great video

[@TheSaneHatter]

Based on what you've retold here, I *really* need to go back and re-read the original amterial, because there's clearly a bit that I've missed or forgotten about Sauron's history! While I knew the tale of how he corrupted Numenor well enough, I somehow missed the detail of how he corrupted the Elvensmiths by promising to heal Middle-Earth, as I've never heard this before!

[@TheRedBook]

Like with Morgoth, much of Sauron's motives are not covered in the main stories but additional material. I think it's impossible for people to truly understand these figures without reading Tolkien's letters, or certain volumes of HoMe. Though, I'm sure I put the source on the screen when I mentioned that part. Highly recommend that because it explains that Sauron's corruption of the Elves was more than just offering knowledge.

[@Windrose86]

Now I have to say: having read Tolkein and doven into the Lore myself for about 20 years it's very well trodden ground in general and especially on KZbin. But your presentation in cadence, word selection, tone, and vocal quality really cause you to stand out and I expect with Interesting analysis and a new perspective on the content you'll do well.

[@milosstevanovic4117]

Please do longger video about Eru, from the aspect of Tolkien theogony, philosophy and teology. Thank you

[@salmanhyder1655]

So amazing.

[@michaelgriffith5747]

Wow... thank you for explaining this in a way my feeble mind can understand... I've always wondered what made the smartest humans in middle earth think they could enslave/control a myar(god/angel) I still don't quit understand but your explination about saurons cunning and the pride the numenorians had at the time help me alot.

[@skatemetrix]

People who know in the books about the destruction of Numenor often say that Eru went too far in obliterating Numenor. Yet the Numenorians if not stopped would have become much worse than Sauron for they were already conquering the western coastlines of Middle Earth, enslaving Men and practicing their human sacrifice and their Melkor-worship in the lands of Middle Earth. The Numenorians would have conquered most of Middle Earth and brought greater death and destruction than anything Sauron or even Melkor could achieve. Aside from the Faithful the Numenorians were twisted, corrupted and quite possibly irredeemable. Imagine an island of Gollums but having great wealth, great power and great armies. They all want their precious- to stop death, and will do anything to get it. Finally when the Numenorians waged war on Valinor itself (and besieged Tirion of all places) and were about to shed blood on the undying lands it was the last straw and Numenor was destroyed.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

5:25 "So Sauron had no recourse to guile". 😅 Tough for non native English speakers. What does it mean? Btw I think it's incredible up to the point of hard to believe that Sauron's entire army deserted him by the rumours or sight of the Numenorean army. At other times, at least his Orc servants would suicidally confront any enemy... or did I overestimate Sauron$s control over his foot folk? Could even Orcs in his presence be routed, their fighting spirit broken?

[@TheRedBook]

Unfortunately that "no" snuck in there and shouldn't be there. It should be "had resource to guile" meaning in this difficult situation he could turn to his cunning.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@TheRedBook Thanks, it was precisely the 'no' that confused me the most

[@pwmiles56]

An anti-religion is present in the transcript of the 1597 Aberdeen witch-trials, found in the Miscellany of the Spalding Club Vol 1 (1841). This work is in the catalogue of the Bodleian Library where Tolkien worked. It's quoted in 'Popular Rhymes of Scotland' by Robert Chambers, a work we know Tolkien consulted. [1] Likely because it has a lot of material about Thomas the Rhymer, "True Thomas", the ballad which he quotes in 'On Fairy-stories'. It also contains the original text, probably Chambers' own, of 'The Black Bull of Norroway'; a story Tolkien shows as an example of "eucatastrophe". So definitely fertile material. In the Aberdeenshire anti-religion there is a male figure called Christsondy, plainly a play on Dionysus. There is a female figure, apparently alive at the time of the trials, called the Queen of Elphame, Queen of Elfland, Queen of the Fairies. Sadly she's a promiscuous woman, taking lovers as she wishes. I'll leave it there but it would be fascinating to have a Scots take on this. [1] Tolkien on Fairy-stories, eds Verlyn Flieger and Douglas Anderson 2008

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Well done.

[@alanmike6883]

I always thought part of it was because the world was arda marred because of melkors influence. Hence the world itself was his ring..

[@TheRedBook]

Partly. The fact Morgoth's Ring exists means that everything has some tendency towards evil - great or small. It would certainly aid Sauron in his corruption as the Gift of Men had already been tainted by Morgoth in the past.

[@alanmike6883]

@@TheRedBook A combination of things plus the pride of numenorians? What's the saying. Pride goeth before the fall

[@morgothfromangband6082]

I highly doubt that the Amazon series will include this or any other canon story. 😩

[@nicksmacro]

So GOOD!

[@TarMody]

With this attempt Sauron presents Melkor as a god and himself as a prophet of this god to the people of Númenor. The phenomenon he manipulates is people's fear of death and desire for immortality. Melkor's will is at the root of every evil that occurs in Arda, as we know that he incarnated his soul into Arda. Being aware of this situation, Sauron may have preferred the worship of Melkor in this attempt to be the basis for the evil he will create.

[@DirtySouthJR]

There were clear signs sent by the Eru/ Valar. Warning them not to sail. So they had to see them. The only idea is that Sauron spun them all to some other meaning serving his purpose. Maybe the faithful saw them also and were then pushed to leave the island and save themselves.

[@TheRedBook]

By that time they didn't trust the Valar, and hated them in fact. Their warnings would have seemed like challenges.It had already reached the stage where Sauron wouldn't have needed to even lie about what the signs mean - in my own opinion.

[@DirtySouthJR]

@@TheRedBook Solid point. Makes perfect sense. It's pleasing to the mind to ponder such things delving into this rich lore deeply. Your channel, with it's serious and dark tone sets it apart from all others and captures the brooding atmosphere of this world wonderfully. It has quickly become my absolute favorite. I have watched almost all of your videos at least once, and pardon me if you have covered this already, but do you have any thoughts about this new Amazon creation you wouldn't mind sharing?

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you :) And I made a community post a while back saying I wouldn't make videos about the Amazon show since this is purely a Tolkien channel but things like Q&As and Livestreaming (which I am about to start doing) is a good opportunity for people to ask stuff about it. I'm happy to share opinions in that format but I just wouldn't dedicate entire videos to adaptations - not at the moment at least.

[@jesusaguilarjr6655]

Do you plan to do a video about Finrod Felagund?.

[@TheRedBook]

The next video that would be about Finrod would be a heroes of the first age video. So, that will come later :)

[@Maedhros587]

I've always seen a slight comparison between the fall of Numenor and the deluge in the bible (great flood). In the Silmarillion, it is said that the doom of men (flooding) befell at the 39th day after the passing of the fleet of Ar Pharazon. In the bible, it is said that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights, and the world was flooded. Coincidence? I think not. I am no expert on the bible, and i might be mistaken, but i think it is a thing to research. Tolkien was after all catholic. The ships of Isildur, Elendil and Anarion look a bit like Noahs arc.

[@theeffete3396]

I always wondered if Sauron actually planned to get captured. Afterall, he left his ring hidden in Mordor, so he clearly wasn't bringing his full force to the battle. And his army fleeing could have been orchastrated as well. Saron was, after all, a master manipulator.

[@TheRedBook]

Tolkien also says in a letter he took the ring with him. But I know the source you mean where it says he "took up the ring" again. I view Sauron as clearly taking the ring with him.

[@beatleblev]

@@TheRedBook So, can Sauron carry the One Ring in spirit form because a part of himself is in the object, or do you think that Ainur spirits have a carrying capacity? As a derivative spirit, can the Witch King flee his physical form with his flaming sword in tow? I would not want to ask Sauron for replacement gear if I didn't absolutely have to do so. Also, what do you have to do to get a set of Mithril Plate and a Mithril weapon in Mordor? Does it come in Black?

[@Crafty_Spirit]

If that was the case, Sauron would have admitted to himself that he had no chance of defeating the Númenoreans the way a true Lord of the Earth would, which seems like an overly humble insight for Sauron. Melkor also managed to salvage something from his first capture and exploit the weak points of the Noldor, but he definitely did not plan to end up in chains. I admit that the situation is far less risky for Sauron but it still seems a bit like a desperate option considering that his plan could simply fail (e.g. if someone would topple and replace Ar-Pharazôn) and then he would have nothing to fall back to. Sauron at all other times avoids risks if he can, so I think it's likely that he was completely taken afoot by the overwhelming fierceness of the Numenorean army. I suspect he surrenders to Ar-Pharazôn not in high spirit, but still willingly, concluding that he either takes a risk and hit to his ego or flee further East and give up on any ambitions worth living for 😈

[@neant2046]

​@@Crafty_Spirit I'm actually from the "Sauron planned it all" club (because Sauron is a careful and cunning perfectionist, he would not move a finger without making a cool plan first, and that whole army abandoning him thing also sounds suspicious to me - he could plan it to instill in Ar-Pharazon the idea that he can compete with the gods). However, I like how you drew a parallel between Melkor not planning to end up in chains and Sauron miscalculating the enemy's strength. Who knows, that could really be the case - after all, underestimating the enemy is his favourite sort of mistake...

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@neant2046 Excellent, it was a spontaneous idea I had and I should have been sleeping by that point, so it's always nice to hear when you get others to rethink certain things :)

[@funkfamily4165]

Listening to this I really hope the Rings of Power gives the Melkor cult some attention.

[@thorshammer7883]

It is pretty sad that the good thing about Arda compared to Earth in a ancient Biblical perspective is that Melkor was never really successful when it came to creating long lasting and enduring evil either they were bloodlusted, twisted, or wickedly morally perverted religions, beliefs, and false philosophies which spread properly like the real world occult pagan ones in the Bible did. As in the Book of 1st Enoch which the occult originated from the blasphemous doctrines and practices taught by the Watcher Fallen Angels and their nephilim spawn. Even after the Flood those evil occult doctrines survived and grew once more especially after the fall of Nimrod's Babel and still remain. Where Melkor failed even as his servants tried to activately be advocates of his twisted worship against Eru. Satan or Mastema as he is called in the book of Jubilees on the other hand didn't really have to do anything but simply sit back and indirectly corrupt through his command of the disembodied spirits of the nephilim who would do the corrupting for him as mentioned within the same book in mockery and tempting man to sin and rebel against Yahuah Elohim. Using and adopting the same wicked occult created by the Watchers and repainting them a bit but in essence the same corruption just taking different appearances and forms. It is quite a sad perspective analysis indeed and show how much man can fall very easily under unseen influences.

[@saunajaakko699]

The problem is that there is really no real tradition of (or even coherent motive for) devil or evil worship that has survived through out history. Many of the modern new age religions usually claim to have their teachings passed down through generations from primordial times, but they are all fabricated stories. This is the case with neopaganism also, the chain of initiation was broken long ago and everything that is attempted to do to restore these dead religions are imitations that end up being just mockeries, no matter how honest effort they put in. And usually mixed with misconceptions of modern values while dropping the most inconvenient ones. In the end, through out history the marginal cults and philosophies have emerged when people, usually young or/and dissapointed or/and marginalized individuals of their time, seek alternatives for the dominating religion of their era. I don't think that there really is real display of evil there with any real influence in the first place. "Satanic" cults who indulge in intentional cruelty, sadism and violence are extremely rare and marginal. Individuals there either come from position of power or are mentally ill

[@RhapsodyInBlaah]

Was the ring on Sauron when Numenor was destroyed?

[@TheRedBook]

There is some debate here - and I was planning on making a video about it. One part of The Silmarillion says that when he had returned to Barad-dur he "took up" the ring again, leading people to say he didn't have it with him. In two other sources (Letters), Tolkien says that Sauron "naturally" had the One Ring with him and used it. When he was killed, he carried the ring off as a spirit back to Barad-dur. Spoiler alert for the future video - I think these can both work together - Sauron taking up the ring again in Barad-dur when he had taken shape again.

[@andersgustafsson5533]

I think it might be interesting with a discussion about how the actual world mechanics differed in Tolkien's books and in the real world. One such difference is of course that magic exists in Middle Earth. Science and magic are not always easy to tell apart, however. Is Gandalf's staff power partly by gunpowder or by magic only? How much magic was included in the art of crafting the legendary artefacts, like the Silmarills, the Palantirs, Vingilot, as well as the famous weapons and armours, and how much was just advanced technology? It also seems like biology worked differently in Tolkien's books. Sometimes evolution is manifested as some kind of extreme Lamarckism working over a single individual's life span, where Gollum for example, who had dwelled in darkness for many years, accuired traits of animals that have evolved in similar environments. And how come interbreeding between different humanoid "races" was possible, considering that they were separatel created? I'm sure there are plenty of other things to discuss about how our world and Middle earth workes differently.

[@CORIOLANVS]

first i didnae want to give you snash about it but pal : 7 ads? other than that: pure brilliant content. cheers from germany 😘

[@TheRedBook]

I don't set the number of ads youtube show you. Some get 7, some get 2, others might get 10.

[@CORIOLANVS]

@@TheRedBook oh sorry my mistake then. those rockets. its just a wee bit irritating sometimes listening to your calm philosophical talking, me looking at my tolkien map collection and then out of nowhere a shrill green haired lassie screams at me about how cool tiktok is... again my mistake and thanks for all your work pal!

[@TheRedBook]

@@CORIOLANVS it is annoying. I could remove ads altogether but I also like to me paid for making the videos 😂 just wish youtube weren't so intrusive with the ads.

[@CORIOLANVS]

@@TheRedBook no worries. for all the time you surely put into these videos you should at least get compensatory dosh 😬

[@Barbossa778]

Darth Gandalf, another small and great LOTR KZbinr, also just put out a very similar video. I think these videos complement each other very well

[@TheRedBook]

Yes, I've never watched his stuff but noticed he had a video on this topic after I had already recorded mine. Usually I delay videos when that happens but I'd already started the work and no one else really does that when it comes to my videos, so I just make them when i want now really. I'll check it out since I've never watched his stuff.

[@Barbossa778]

@@TheRedBook His channel is much more relaxed than yours but he is equally dedicated to the lore. Also just to be clear I wasn’t saying there was any kind of plagiarism or anything lol your videos actually take different looks at this issue.

[@TheRedBook]

@@Barbossa778 - Na, I never thought you were accusing of such a thing. I've been the victim of repeated plagiarism by one of the big channels and it's the last thing I'd want to even do anyway! I've got too many ideas for videos to stole anyone else's ideas :D

[@Barbossa778]

@@TheRedBook you do such great work, it’s a shame people steal it from you. But the good news is they clearly see the values in it as well. Keep putting out quality content like this and you’ll be at 200k in no time

[@gagaplex]

It's a bit odd that the Elves who did NOT worship Melkor had the immortality that Men hoped to gain by doing so. The two (immortality, worship of Melkor) would appear not to be connected if you, as a Man, look at your former Elven allies. I guess Sauron ensured the Numenoreans wouldn't notice this discrepancy, though.

[@docopoper]

Don't think of it as a bad reflection that your channel is numerically small. What you're making is more akin to scientific publications, in that your in depth approach appeals more to people who are really into Tolkien instead of a general audience. So you should think of it in those terms. People don't expect scientific papers to get many views, but still hold them in high regard. And you're held in high regard by the people here.

[@TheRedBook]

I get the sentiment of course but even if the ideas put forward are a bit more in depth than "History of character #48' I think the editing and style makes it more engaging than if I was just writing and putting articles up like I used to do. I still think the channel is worth more than the sub count I have and views I get based on the subject matter. Not expectiing 100k or anything but without sounding arrogant I think the quality is worth more than the 11k I have at the moment. Still, I'm happy to even have that after worrying I'd have none when I started :D

[@docopoper]

@@TheRedBook I totally agree. Like honestly the quality of the videos and especially the way you present and structure things is so high on this channel. I'd absolutely love for you to reach a wider audience, I was just trying to make you feel better haha. Maybe a good strategy would be to do some collaborations with other Tolkien KZbinrs. I've heard that's a great way to grow a KZbin channel without having to go down the clickbait route.

[@TheRedBook]

@@docopoper I recently was on a bigger channel with over 300k subs and it made no difference in terms of views or subs. Well, I got like 60 subs instead of an expected 20 that day or something. With the size of that channel I expected to gain a lot more than I did. It's like it never happened. Collabs are difficult as well because there are only a few Tolkien channels I actively enjoy watching and only a few who talk about stuff that would lend itself to collaboration. I like making my own videos and doing my own thing. I basically don't use all the tricks to get more viewers but then complain that I don't get more viewers 🐵

[@docopoper]

I've always wondered if Eru actually disliked Melkor being worshiped. He seemingly intervened here because of the men traveling to Valinor instead of because of them worshiping Melkor. It's interesting to think about because Melkor came from Eru, and Eru willingly accepted his themes into the music, and he seems to have had no problem with figures such as Varda being worshiped (at least I think, I'm not sure if there are actually cases where the Ainur are specifically worshiped).

[@TheRedBook]

Tolkien's Fall of Man story has Eru seeming rather peeved that Melkor was being worshipped but more because Men were being deceived and believed that Melkor was Eru. There's a big difference with the likes of Varda though, it's not really worship, it's reverence. They sing prayers to her and seek her blessings but don't build temples and enforce rules or instructions. Revering the Valar as representitives of Eru is far more innocent than constructing places of worship towards them. Even the Numenoreans didn't "worship" Eru originally, they had prayers for him, feasts in his name, a holy place on a mountain - all positive.

[@docopoper]

@@TheRedBook Fair enough. That basically answers my question. Interesting, and thank you.

[@jkhristian9603]

@@TheRedBook I always saw it more like Catholic reverence for saints. Like St. Michael, for instance. That would make sense to me since Tolkien was a devout Catholic.

[@erwingvargas2272]

But didn't Numenoreans remember or passed on who Melkor/Morgoth was? I mean their ancestors fought in the war of Wrath against Morgoth so the knowledge of this dark lord was lost?

[@TheRedBook]

Men of the First Age would have fought against a figure known as "Morgoth"., Remember, few spoke the name Melkor. Also, that was thousands of years in the past, no living memory of Melkor there. They were also blinded by what Sauron was saying this figure could offer them while saying the Valar were against them. It makes Melkor/Morgoth seem like the victim.

[@erwingvargas2272]

@@TheRedBook yeah Sauron the deceiver

[@Elia-fn8jv]

i honestly cannot blame the numenoreans for feeling hated by the Valar and Eru, having no power over death only the choice of when to die, which it lead to my questions for anyone in the comments about the "gift of men" being mortality: Why men had to be inflicted their gift?couldnt Eru have made aging and death not painful? Why didnt give to all men the power that the numenoreans had in dying whe they want?

[@TheRedBook]

The thing is, death was never meant to be painful, it was meant to be a naturally accepted process when occurring without outside intervention (battle, wounds, poison, etc). Aragorn is a good example of this. His death would have been painless. He reached a point in his life when it felt right for him to die and he did. This is the way it was envisioned. But corruption led to it being something else. We see this with the Kings on Numenor, who eventually didn't accept the natural death and decided to cling to life until it was painful and frightening. The whole idea is that Men haven't been "inflicted" with such a gift - it's supposed to be a gift and just a different one from Elves. Elves end up envying Men who are able to pass from the world and Men envy Elves who don't have to leave - such is the nature of corruption.

[@Elia-fn8jv]

@@TheRedBook but thats my point,Aragorn being a dunedain a descendant of Numenor,he had the ability to die willingly when he felt the time was right,not all men had this ability and my question is why?

[@TheRedBook]

Because they were unfortunately corrupted. All Men should have been able to do so. The world was marred. Including many in it.

[@gagaplex]

I can kind of get behind worshipping "creative darkness", but its master is Eru, not Morgoth!

[@specialnewb9821]

One thing I could never figure out is HOW Numenor over awed Sauron. Sauron is an angelic engineer. He should at least have cannons since Saruman had bombs. But Numenor's conception as steampunk was abandoned. They still use a medieval army. Granted they had a population of maybe 30 million according to some fan estimated I've seen but even then that translates to maybe a 4-500k army (extrapolated from Rome population/army average + some Valar agri/health blessings). Sauron has the the rest of the planet. If both armies are medieval then I just can't figure out why there wasn't even a fight.

[@tarkadal5563]

Sauron did have cannons but Numenor had air to ground missiles so they weren't effective. Honestly I think if you choose to overthink stories like that then you can't enjoy even the best stories there are. Did you expect Tolkien do give you an in depth analysis of precisely how every battle is fought and won?

[@specialnewb9821]

@@tarkadal5563 I think it would have been amazingly cool to have it described, and even better imo to have 1 curb stomp battle then Sauron's armies nope right out.

[@charleslarrivee2908]

Given how McCay and Payne want The Rings of Power to be something the whole family can experience, in direct contrast to something like Game of Thrones, I wonder how far down this particular rabbit hole they'll go 😏

[@dfringsofpower]

🔥👁🔥

[@lisacook8235]

Question: Why would Sauron use the name his enemies gave him? Tell me that , Professor Tolkien.

[@TheRedBook]

Professor Tolkien?

[@dv9360]

Worship of Melkor survives to this day.

[@grizzlednerd4521]

With mortality being the Gift of Men, how is it that the long life of the Númenoreans was a blessing? Surely that "blessing" sent a precedent that more life was better than less...with this naturally leading to a desire for immortality.

[@sainiharika]

Saurons cunning knows no limits

[@Crafty_Spirit]

Btw Steven, I think my nitpicking on one of the previous videos payed off 😁 Thanks for listing all the pretentious titles Sauron gave to himself in the 2nd Age

[@TheRedBook]

I didn't say King of the World this time lol

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@TheRedBook That one is reserved for Leo DiCaprio

[@Davlavi]

for the algorithm

[@TheRedBook]

Glory be to the great Algorithm.

[@kirkmiyake4414]

What do you think happened to the Numenoreans who were killed in the destruction of their island? Did they follow a mortal's fate after death, thrown into the Void, or ...?

[@TheRedBook]

No mortal would be thrown into the void, those who were on the island and died would have followed the path of mortal's upon death. Only those who sailed West would have remained in the Caves of the Forgotten, awaiting the end of the world.

[@TheMarcHicks]

I still believe that, had the Valar left the Edain in Middle Earth, many of the worst events of the Second Age would have been averted.

[@TheRedBook]

Most likely but it all ends up becoming part of the bigger plan. Numenor made , Numenoreans aid Elves , Sauron involved in Downfall, Faithful survive, descendant helps defeat Sauron.

[@kevinmichaelbergman8276]

Enemies are always called Evil by the Victor's now who is the fool?

[@charlesstanford1310]

This reminds me of the Book of Mormon: the philosophical problem of death (and its necessity), the blasphemous messenger teaching resentment toward God, the hubris of mighty civilizations leading to their degradation into evil...

[@TheRedBook]

The Book of Mormon is one text I haven't read, though the problem of evil and degradation into evil was certanly a theme in other religious texts I've read :)

[@charlesstanford1310]

@@TheRedBook One of the universal problems of the human experience.

[@solotraveler37]

The whole "gift of Men" thing always seemed like a con. And Eru didn't help his case when he made that one guy with the elf wife immortal. If you really want to make old age, illness, and death seem like a gift, don't offer the literal opposite of all that as a reward.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

It would be nice to see your idea of what is coming up in Sept. as far as how Morgoth worship will look coming out of a woke writing staff. I hate Amazon at this point and we aren't even actually at "the point" yet. The only thing that Amazon has that I want now are a set of sheets on discount and a new bicycle seat.

[@TheRedBook]

Na, I won't be covering the series on the channel. This is a Tolkien channel 🙂

[@Sym0S]

@@TheRedBook Haha well put

[@PleaseNThankYou]

@@TheRedBook 😜Thank you for giving us a safe haven!!!

[@istari0]

@@TheRedBook Nice burn! 😂

[@tominiowa2513]

Universal Cycles probably has a bicycle seat that would work, plus they have almost as many shop cats as Queen Berúthiel had cats.

[@Sym0S]

[@His_Name_Was_King]

The Numenorians were already in a weakened state per se. Even with a present mighty army. All roads lead to Rome.

[@kevinmichaelbergman8276]

We are the Trinity of 8 we already won I Absu Adam Atum Keivan Kyivban Kevin Kemet withTiamat Ishtar Gaya Sophia Athora Lillith Terra we are the Original Creator's of the Universe we are again the Rulers of the Universe no Evils remaining all removed and Destroyed by Lillith and our Enforcement of the Trinity of 8

[@TheRedBook]

Here we are. Born to be Kings. We're the Princes of the Universe. There can only be one.

[@kevinmichaelbergman8276]

@@TheRedBook There has only been one the whole time that's why they keep inviting me back after they kill me? Hoping to get more secrets from me failing every time lol.

[@kevinmichaelbergman8276]

Evil thieves telling their own Stories making their thefts seem good so again who became the Fools

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

I see people saying that Númenor was already corrupted before Sauron arrived on the island. For the island was in a moral decay with a colonialist-mercantilist posture. I do not agree. I think Númenor was abandoning the elven qualities and the ethereal aspect that made the island a blessed place (in relation to the cultural decay of Middle-earth), that is, the Númenóreans were taking on much more of a human vision with flaws and selfishness. Númenor was more human and less elvish.

[@waltonsmith7210]

It explicitly says in the text they came as lords and takers of tribute hundreds of years before Sauron came.

[@leonardomarquesbellini]

I see what you mean, but I believe the imperialist argument has credit, long before Sauron they were already arrogant not only towards elves, but other men too. One thing that always stuck out when reading the Akalabeth is how heavy handed they are when dealing with other peoples through their naval empire, as if their superior position as High Men allowed them to deal with others dismissively or even violently. During the First Age it's hard to argue Elves weren't superior to the tribes of Man they encountered, but despite some internal disagreements it was noted capital G Good occurred when elves welcomed their more primitive siblings with genuine offers of friendship, unlike what the Numenorians did to their fellow men.

[@waltonsmith7210]

@@leonardomarquesbellini The Numenorians had everything they could ever need, and chose to use their power to take from those living much harder and shorter lives than them. Tolkien was savvy enough about human nature to know that when the Valar created a race of superhumans, they put a gun to the head of the rest of middle earth-and themselves. Eru himself had to disarm the Numenorian gun.

[@istari0]

Tolkien's writings clearly describe the Númenoreans as having turned from friends and teachers to the men of Middle-Earth to conquerors and rulers who dominated the men of Middle-Earth in the areas the Númenoreans controlled. This and the envy of the immortal beings began during the reign of Tar-Ciryatan, who ruled from SA 1869 to SA 2029.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

Are you the Critical Drinker? Or do all Scots sound alike?🤔

[@TheRedBook]

Lol he's from a completely different part of Scotland. From his accent, I'd guess he is from Fife. I'm from other side of the country. Though. I know foreign folks get confused distinguishing between Scottish and Irish too 😂 so I don't blame you for thinking we sound alike.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

@@TheRedBook I’m confused anyway. I’m used to it. Thanks!

[@spiffygonzales5160]

@@TheRedBook From what I can tell Irish are happy scots and scots are POd Irish.