Ritualized Behavior From Animals to Church

[@Vokaynroks]

Been missing this format for some time. Love that you’re having success in the longform content and the people you work with, but I must admit that these videos are more easily digestible. Blessings.

[@animula6908]

I agree. I enjoy both, but it’s complex material from a unique perspective, and I don’t always get as much from the collabs and longer videos. My peabrain can’t keep up. These are more illuminating for my learning style and intellectual capacity.

[@kevin_heslip]

Same here

[@marine76a]

​@@animula6908no its not a limitation of yours. Let's describe x with y without discussing what Y is in the conversation is a conversation amongst people that understand Y. The long-form content forgets to discuss Y.

[@WarInHeaven]

Typical sir Pagaue these are your best kind of videos, thank you!

[@garyfrancis6193]

Why did you spell his name wrong?

[@JordanGreenhall]

Hmm. It occurs to me that the secular cycle of the last 500 years, might be understood in this frame as akin to MMA - that is an orientation away from ritualization and towards power. And that the awareness of mutually assured destruction began a remembering of the necessity of ritualization on this new base.

[@NTNG13]

Not just the secular, the rise in occultism and new age practice among the younger generations could be seen as a response to the existentialism and atheism of 20th century. The human desire for meaning shows itself in the search for rituals, they just happen to think "organized" religion is not for them despite being exactly what they are looking for.

[@RomanDobs]

@@NTNG13underrated comment I think that’s spot on. In fact that was my journey . Born into Byzantine rite Catholicism and moving through existential ontological and academic Philosophy to theosophical occultism and new age to traditionalism and traditioand back to Byzantine rite Catholicism

[@QuixEnd]

Actually extremely helpful. Some distinctions are far too easy to miss

[@AnimateSoul]

One thing I’ve noticed is that competent individuals in a domain tend to have an ability to see order at a depth that others can’t see, allowing them to craft custom-fit strategies out of more fundamental building blocks. It seems to me that premature ordering is a mark of incompetence - prematurely limiting behavior to tame complexity you can’t handle. Due to this the “master” in my view has always been the one who can act with perfect specificity. But this has been helpful to understand and increase my respect for ritualized behaviors. It seems like ritualized marital arts serve to make explicit the invisible patterns that exist in the soul of the expert MMA fighter.

[@117Industries]

Wow. So much to unpack here. I've been thinking about this a lot too. But while I agree that 'ritualized martial arts serve to make explicit the invisible patterns that exist in the soul of the expert [MMA] fighter', I think that the typical MMA fighter's ritualised behaviours aren't so much making explicit the otherwise invisible currents of their soul as a mere set of clumsily emulated, tightly rule-restricted behaviours entrained through coaching (or imitated from other fighters). So, while I agree with your notion that ritualised practices in martial arts carry precisely this function, in the ideal, in practice they are very rarely fulfilling this function. But that brings one to another topic: the sign and the signified. The MMA fighter I intonated towards (whose semiotics of body and posture are empty of any underlying expression of "soul") is the man without substance-- the last man. All simian, no humanity. All sign, neither substance nor essence. But again, this is a separate discussion.

[@lo5182]

Jonathan, you are the Orthodox friend I never knew I needed. From a Roman Catholic.

[@kimjohnson1755]

Hi there! I 0:00 just found you on the Exodus series. You are my favorite panel member!!🎉.

[@naryanr]

Congratulations on the 200K. Well deserved.

[@Porphyrogen]

Thanks!

[@Handbook08]

Fascinating. Watched it twice in a row. Thank you 🙏.

[@SilentBloedius]

I always learn so much when I watch your videos. Thank you for your content. I think you would be an amazing guest on the JRE

[@animula6908]

I’d actually download Spotify for that.

[@chrisc7265]

I don't want to come across as selfish because I do wish Jonathan success but I think he is right now in the sweet spot of popularity where he can make a good living while not being beholden to the political forces someone like, say, JBP is plus Rogan would have no idea what Jonathan is talking about and the discussion itself would be of little interest. I mean it'd probably be hilarious and worth watching, but of no intellectual interest.

[@claudiadaniel685]

Miss having you post on Rumble. Appreciate your content.

[@climbingmt.sophia]

This may be the best video you have made yet Jonathan, thank you.

[@HrvojeSL]

This is brilliant

[@Fr_Mitch]

You and JBP need to meet with Dr. Matt Rossano and discuss the power and importance of ritual. Rituals are resource management techniques. They accrue, aggregate, and store up social capital -- attention, wellbeing, goodwill, morale, etc. This is why soldiers march and chant in unison, why cheerleaders get the team and fans chanting together, why schools have structured PTA meetings, etc. I believe that much of the chaos we see in the last couple of hundred years is attributable to the degradation and decline of ritual. I also believe that's why Jesus very explicitly says you have to do the Ritual (John 6). The heresy of gnosticism is imagining that you can manage resources with the powers of the mind alone. Mind, body, and spirit are one. That's why we must insist on the Resurrection of the body, why the bread and wine must be the actual body and blood of Christ, and why the Eucharist celebration is the most powerful ritual.

[@BalazsKegl]

Ritualization also affords generalization through productive metaphors. Ju Jitsu means soft yielding, it is the principle of using the adversary's energy to beat him. That generalizes to any type of fight, not only physical.

[@Staniel08]

You just articulated perfectly and so simply some of the most profound experiences and realizations I've had on my deepest psychedelic trips. You are a prophet, sir.

[@ManuelPost]

Thanks. That was a great layout of ritual. Keep up the good work.

[@jacobgray676]

Top Tier Video

[@schmitzkaylee]

God bless, hope you are having a great week Johnathan.

[@brandon-leewilliams7092]

This was very helpful. Thanks Jonathan

[@jaylehman3333]

I love the idea of showing how ritual can be traced back into the most primitive of biological decisions/patterns. The idea of a path becoming an “ordered” way of proceeding that gradually has a lower “cost.” I wonder if a bigger part of the cost equation is looking for ways to reduce the anxiety of infinite options. So the neurological instinct is to reduce the cost associated with the anxiety of doing something the first time by repeating behaviours that are associated with less anxiety - a travelled path is associated w less anxiety with every successful use of that pattern. Just as a forest path to the river becomes a rut that frees us from the anxiety of blazing a new trail - so ritual (especially an existential ritual which is what liturgy is) is deeply necessary and resonates on a unconscious level…

[@jovanhranisavljevic6111]

Many years ago I read a book about the Colosseum. The central event was the two-wheeler races on which bets were placed. Then gladiator fights, then various forms of sexual intercourse between animals and humans. Obviously, it was aimed at three basic human weaknesses. The lack of ritualization led us to the Dark Ages.

[@Richard_Paradise]

👍✝ Martial arts was a really good example to frame the idea of the ritual. I liked it.

[@thecrookedtrail679]

Mind blowing 🙏🏻

[@TheAlison1456]

Interesting. Thanks. IDK if you have already but you could talk about rites of passage in the modern day. Also add chapters in your videos if this is actionable.

[@TheRationalCarpenter]

🤯 this took me to a new level. Matthieu's comments on simulation and the ritualization of absurdities, actions that don't correspond to their meaning. Even the idea of proxy war is looking different.

[@Theoramma]

The average person doesn't like looking at the underlying systems that generate the experiences they have because the labels that they are attached to lose their meaning. When all of a person's thoughts depend on the meanings of words, the upper limit of their possible thoughts hinges on the limitations of the language they think in.

[@roderickdickson8924]

great video Jonathan

[@tomg_2]

The problem is they don’t want to understand it.

[@Shadow_Videos]

This is a Genius idea !!!! Thank you.

[@donalfoley2412]

Thanks.

[@mistersmith8962]

Compressing meaning should improve efficiency toward united purpose...then what value does repeatedly ritualizing behavior provide if it generates destructive action?

[@f00drox]

Interesting video. Thanks

[@moneymuscles4498]

At 14:00 ritual/power, you used kung fu and mma as opposites... I would argue that Myamoto Musashi is a great example of the synthesis between proper grounded metaphysical ritual and practical reality...

[@moneymuscles4498]

Maybe impractical ritualization of your view of metaphysics practically shows its metaphysical flaws. ie kung fu being useless in reality

[@samuelramalheira7237]

That video is brilliant 🗿🍷 Really helpful! Thank you Jonathan

[@zita-lein]

Loved this!

[@Staniel08]

Wow. Just. WOW.

[@ChrishBlake]

Any way to connect this with JPs latest podcast with Dr Donald Hoffman? What is the meaning of something in a higher context than spacetime? And what particular could be drawn from that once we reached it? Can the notion of what it means to particularize or utilize itself be known? Or is that a false, prideful premise derived from thinking we can even understand a meaning outside of spacetime, or at/past the limit, or in the realm of the divine. Thank you.

[@YoniCrisis]

12:00 or sports for example, another sort of very specifically ritualized "tribal warfare"

[@MrSeanwarman]

There's a short somewhere of an MMA fighter beating a tai chi fighter to a pulp. It's like, the MMA guys are the 20th century, throwing all the rules out the window.

[@hamnkapten7977]

Can the Reformation be seen as a response to over-ritualized religious behavior? If so, what would power be in that situation?

[@gregwill500]

This was very interesting and makes a lot of sense. But I have to ask...what's with the pointy hats?

[@rohan-jl]

Would you be interested in making a video about the movie sausage party? I just watched it and I understand the main thing they are trying to say, but I feel like I’m also missing some of their points and references.

[@S.G.Wallner]

There's something interesting about compression of meaning and depth of meaning. But depth in what sense?

[@russellpizel3750]

Can the Summit be streamed across the globe?

[@shitsugane]

Very interesting

[@RitaVernoy]

I always learn something here or at least deeper meaning to something I had already known

[@Cyrus_II]

"Game" is ritual and order I suppose. In context of game in dating, you can imagine someone who is an expert in game and "peacocking" (i.e. ritualized behavior to show that you're powerful) , but in terms of actual power (job, resources, strength) has nothing. In this example I don't know if there's a trade off though, you can have both.

[@stephenbrannen]

Jonathan - have you explored ritualization from a standpoint of pragmatism yet? Parts of your explanation of it here have overtones of pragmatism à la materialism / survival of the fittest insofar as ritual behaviors might develop *solely* to reduce cost. Obviously that's an ugly take on ritual, but I wonder if you've addressed the problem of someone making that claim. Speaking of ugly (vs. beautiful), could beauty in ritual be an answer to the theoretical claim that ritual may be purely pragmatic, since beauty is so divorced from the cost/worth calculus?

[@expert12390]

Your content is the best! I cant wait till ten years down the line when you talk about things that were happening today and no one cares about anymore

[@notloki3377]

yep. so true.

[@WarInHeaven]

This is for understanding current events if you can see it.

[@csanadobsitos2169]

I think you would be interested in Michael Levin. He is doing the biology of your basketball team exemple, from the cells up.

[@TheChio116]

Awesome 🤩

[@chrisc7265]

I'm not super feeling this one, even though there's some very useful stuff in here. You have the metaphor of ritual as the shortest path worn through the forest to get to the river: -start with a specific goal -a pattern is solidified that represents the most efficient manner to accomplish that goal -the wisdom of that pattern is codified in ritual But in practice ritual almost always has an aspect that is precisely _not_ the most efficient pattern or the shortest path. The Pope literally cannot fit in a car with his hat. Ritual can veer more towards practicality/MMA/sports team or more towards ornamentation/Kung Fu/pope's hat, but there is always some aspect of the latter. You can argue, okay, the utility of the pope's hat is not immediately apparent, but much like the peacock's plumage, there is a proof of status built in and so on. Kung Fu is less efficient because it needed to be, otherwise over iterated games all the participants would die. This to me is missing something --- I don't think ritual can be boiled down to purely material/evolutionary explanations. This is like the creationist searching for evidence in the fossil record that world is 6000 years old. I think a proper definition of ritual is that it's not merely a pattern of behavior, but a pattern of behavior _organized around an ideal that is not completely reducible to material efficiency_ . The fastest path to the river is _not_ a ritual. The path to the river that veers around the sacred tree instead of cutting it down is a ritual. Here is where someone like JBP would say that not cutting down the sacred tree is, in a meta sense, reducible to material efficiency because the big rat loses 30% of the time and over iterative interactions etc (you all know the speech). And JBP would be correct in everything he said, but he's just kicking the can down the road. At some point there is hole in the material explanation, and that is where the light gets in.

[@stevennewberg9993]

Right. Grateful someone else pointed this out. Ritual doesn’t just serve material efficiency. It also calls attention to the spiritual essence of our existence. It manifests the beauty and grace of living, working, sometimes even fighting by in relationship. That’s something I learned from Jonathan, by the way.

[@razvan_anton]

The manifestation is patterned not towards a single goal but at least two, as St Maximus explains in the Ambigua, similar to a spring growing in both directions or in modern science, a DNA strand. This pattern appears from above like a spiral( think Golden ratio) which is why Jonathan says that it moves towards a single goal, as time is a spiral not a circle because history repeats itself( circle) but never in the same manner( line). From these it seems to be that there is a struggle of understanding the measurement of time . One is the line( natural law, paganism, animal ritual ,post French Rev political axis, and secularism which is a form of paganism hence why the animal like behavior in our modern times) and the circle which is the sacred and a more heavenly form as described in Genesis. These two shapes , line and circle are both included in the spiral which is also spring and the way reality takes shape over time.

[@aryanz66]

I love that outro music

[@michaelofstjoseph]

The MMA analogy was excellent.

[@JamesDixonMusic]

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness. When goodness is lost, there is kindness. When kindness is lost, there is justice. When justice is lost, there is ritual. Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion. Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of the Tao. It is the beginning of folly. Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real and not what is on the surface, On the fruit and not the flower, Therefore accept the one and reject the other. V38 Tao Te Ching

[@JonathanPageau]

This is a good point about ritual that I didn't mention, it echoes the biblical, "I require mercy not sacrifice". If ritual becomes outward gesture without internal form, that is if ritual forgets its purpose, then it is indeed like an empty husk and the worst of all.

[@robertjarman4261]

C.S.Lewis recommended the Tao.

[@JamesDixonMusic]

@@JonathanPageau you see if all the time in my line of creativity being love music performance, in genres like "folk" or "jump blues", so often the way the music is presented with the clothing, the brand of guitar, the type of production, song choice, even things like the way your hair is work, these are often elevated to a higher level of importance than the quality, content and passion of the music being performed. It's exactly this, the ritual overpowers the meaning which generated the ritual in the first place, like a river that has a frozen surface. You see it art galleries all the time, the focus is on the style surrounding the art and the way the artist presents themselves, more effort is put into that than the quality of the actual art. I suppose you could make parallels with Simulation and Simulacra .

[@HammertownWins]

Thanks

[@majinflaco8353]

I play video games online mostly competitive games but i noticed that we form a meta that everyone does. It seems to be related to rituals lol

[@JosefSvenningsson]

Jonathan Haidt has claimed that religion and Christianity has been selected evolutionarily for to ability to collaborate and work together. This mirrors exactly what you're saying about religion as the highest, most powerful way of binding us together.

[@peterrosqvist2480]

What are the names of the pattern of tiles on the symbolic world intro? Edit: it’s called mosaic

[@peteroleary9447]

Yes, mosaic. Specifically in the opus tessellatum style.

[@peterrosqvist2480]

@@peteroleary9447 thank you

[@b0bsProductions]

Sincerely hoping this MMA metaphor is Jonathan’s way of preparing for JRE hahaha

[@R_A_V_E_R_X]

When you brush your teeth away from the sink, you destroy the universe.

[@adamq8216]

Great video!

[@Sfpgg7480]

So what it says is that religious rituals serve the same purpose as any rituals humans have💡

[@dave1370]

This is exactly why the liturgy is awesome

[@kyletwitch]

Can't spell spiritual without ritual

[@TonyCRosa]

The move to consider behavior and culture not only as mere power -plays but also arbitrariness really wrecks a person's ability to understand "the pointy hats". One does not (intuitively) understand and so one rejects.

[@invainthedreamer7505]

When might we legitimately reevaluate a religious ritual? Or do we always "trust the process"?

[@invainthedreamer7505]

I wonder if the Protestant and then evangelical movement away from ritual is a trade of meaning for power (tapping into the immediacy of emotions, garnering more enthusiasm from the laity toward spiritual matters, etc). I'm struggling to know how to evaluate whether this can ever be a licit trade. Maybe it produces an effective burst of power (the missions movement, social improvement, increased biblical literacy) that ultimately implodes because of a lack of meaning (sexual confusion, communal breakdown)?

[@ashrafkarkout4285]

I think evaluation is way in the process u cant not trust the process and reevaluation has a purpose of learning that u dont necessarily need after a .. process

[@sandmancesar]

I don’t think we can reevaluate any ritual, as they emerge and are modified by themselves. Our conscious mind has nothing to do with its state, as it comes before ontologically.

[@nyssalynnie]

🙏🏼

[@nyssalynnie]

The contraction of communication through emoji 😂 thank you!!!! ❤

[@luchador1764]

Fighting vs sparring

[@LJ7000]

But Evil things can be, and are, ritualised too. So doesn't necessarily make ritual an inherent good.

[@stevennewberg9993]

What about the positive side of ritual? Doesn’t it also manifest the beauty and grace of living, working, sometimes even fighting in relationship? In other words, ritual doesn’t merely serve material efficiency, it also calls attention to the spiritual essence of our existence. I love all your talks, but I felt this one uncharacteristically failed to point to the more important aspect of the reason for ritual, apart from which we just stay materialists in essence.

[@ethankaat3135]

This seems related to the Abolition of Man in some way

[@mhjbnz]

MMA:Kung Fu is like Protestant:Orthodox

[@bandie9101]

Jonathan Toothbrushing Pageau :)

[@Louis.R]

René Girard

[@BalazsKegl]

Eye-opening, thank you Jonathan! It reminded me to what Vava says here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/noGQiJeadr2SkMU The collective rituals of a physics collaboration to make sure to collectively avoid self-deception. We have our methods, but at the end what is needed are the rituals of double checking, ordering the importance of which checks to run, and collectively cancelling out individual biases.

[@ZAYA2227]

BOOKMARK

[@eckharttolle-nq7qu]

I don't draw a connection between civil duties and God

[@stoo_]

انا رجل من أصول عربية وهي دولتي المملكة العربية السعودية وانا من قبيلة بني التميم الي تمتد اعمار القبيلة اكثر من الاف السنين وانا من عائلة محافظة أي لا نتعدى الحدود الحمراء التي علمنا الإسلام عليها درست الأديان وتعلمت الأديان وفرقت أن أصل العبادة هو الشي الذي تكرس حياتك من أجله ولا يوجد شي مثل الله عبادة الله وعدم شرك هو أكبر الأسباب لفهم الحياة ولماذا خلقنا ولماذا خلق الشيطان اسأله كثيرة عند البشر وأن دين الإسلام دين مثقف ويتبع الأدلة وانا أقول بالتحديد الدين الإسلامي السني لأن هنالك طوائف تم تحريفها من أجل التجارة والكذب وطائفة السنة التي تتبع سنة الله ورسوله تتبع القران والأحاديث المنقولة عن أب لإبنه وتم تدقيقها ومراجعتها من قبل السنين ولم تحرف الى يومنا هذا لقد دخلت لمواضيع كثيرة اعتذر للقراء

[@НадбровныйДугин-в8е]

Islam is a Christian heresy mixed with Arab paganism. You worship power as a transcendent subject, not the the true God.

[@alfgand8040]

Yes, and MMA is just a lower level of what happened in WW1 and WW2

[@polemizator723]

Sounds similar to Peterson's meta-game.

[@daves-c8919]

How does this video have 22000 views, but 77000 likes? It’s a great video, but I don’t understand.

[@Aestheticaye]

I don't understand the obsession with "meaning". Meaning at some point becomes indifferent to a ritual that seeks theosis or some transcendence. God is not meaning, god is beyond meaning. ​As you perform a ritual and integrate higher levels of complexity aren't you simultaneously reducing the multiform aspect of various meanings and reducing to one meaning and eventually the "absence of meaning" in an apophatic way?

[@SydneyApplebaum]

God is the source of meaning

[@Aestheticaye]

@@SydneyApplebaum But as Non-Being, God is also the source of Un-Meaning. Meaning cannot separated from conceptualization

[@HubertofLiege]

God=truth therefore meaning=life

[@Aestheticaye]

@@HubertofLiege These are empty assertions. Truth is relational. One thing can be "true" in one moment and the same thing can be "untrue" the next given a change of circumstances. There is a fluidity and relationality to truth. Ontologically, God cannot be reduced to human assertions of "truth", because truth claims are inherently caught up in our limited view of reality. There is a "truth" of God that outreaches any of our assertions of what we believe is true.

[@aprillee83]

My priest explained it’s not a question of whether God is real…but that He is everywhere present and fills all things (the heavens and the earth). So if somebody is in the room with you and you want to acknowledge their presence and communicate or have a relationship with them, you want to participate in the potential relationship…and that takes rituals and physical action with that person. Because we are not just spiritual beings but also physical. And where the spiritual and physical meet, that is life/purpose/truth/meaning or whatever you want to call it. Thoughts don’t get you to theosis…you need ritual/ordered actions and behaviors…like everything else we do as humans to achieve meaningful goals.

[@user-tp7wi4lt2b]

As a psychology student I see strong parallels to behavioral ecology and selectionism in Jonathans thinking, just amped up to a cosmological scale.

[@TonyCRosa]

Jonathan getting ready to speak with Joe Rogan? 😉

[@sandmancesar]

Is he going to??

[@stoo_]

دين الإسلام هو الدين الوحيد الذي لا يمكنك أن تقارنه مع الحيوانات او مع الجماعات الأخرى لأنه الدين الي يخالف شهوتك ويخالف راحتك ويفسد لك نومك وتستيقظ من أجل تأدية العبادة أو الصلاة فهل من المنطق مقارنتها مع حيوانات لا تتبع إلا الشهوة ؟

[@jesusisunstoppable4438]

Islam is pure evil and is comparable to the absolute worst of human nature.

[@ashrafkarkout4285]

Sad for u not being able to actualy say qigong (i think ) and u should thank john vervaeke 😂😂

[@hankkuya4354]

Religion a house of hope for some and a gate to hell for others. Such a tease

[@jesusisunstoppable4438]

2nd add on comment.. You call it Ritual Behavior... It's called Routine. Humans love Routines, it's a form of safety, knowing what to expect instead not knowing... etc etc Your parents did it, they taught you to do it and So on. You continuing to make videos has become a Ritualistic Behavior.

[@heyokaoverdashelly2kangel945]

Are ASSumptions the same thing as SUPERstitions ?

[@KevinMakins]

Super = above Stitious = to stand The opposite of understanding. We are overstood by something we cannot put under us and understand.

[@jesusisunstoppable4438]

Ok so why watch the whole video when you summarized it very well in the 1st 26 seconds. Nothing new, blah blah blah.

[@mellomojared]

Is there an online Orthodox Church I can attend I feel so lonely

[@TheAlison1456]

are there local ones? have you looked? we can't look for you