RMAF2019 - Record Cleaning Made Difficult

[@lanesumner2293]

I was researching products to clean vinyl. I watched videos with Charles Kirmus on his restoration system. After watching this video it was clear to me that he will say anything to sell his product. I went with a vacuum system and I'm happy.

[@TheLegendaryJackMcDuff]

Charles Kirmuss does a fantastic job in his presentation. He shows that he really knows his stuff.

[@gianpaologliori3604]

I think the reason Linn and Rega dismissed record cleaning back in the 80s was that in those days most record cleaning tools were crap and did more harm than good. It’s only in the last 15 years or so that effective ie wet machine record cleaners have been affordable.

[@johnholmes912]

that kirmuss guy has never been near a chemistry class in his life...i suspect he's read a load of junk on the internet........he appears to lack even a basic understanding..

[@poisonflour6723]

Nice long advertisement for Kirmuss

[@poetryonplastic]

I came here for the old guys in the comments shaking their proverbial fist yelling about "Snake Oil!!!"

[@arnaldostudio]

Haha yea always entertaining to see the back and forth banter!

[@universoulistic]

How in the hell does this video get any “thumbs down” at all, much less half the “thumbs up” votes?! Dudes, chill the f out. Oh, and thank god someone has the devotion to music that Michael Fremer has and puts his energy into bringing this much needed conversation into focus. Thanks Michael. Your efforts are sincerely appreciated. And of course, thanks to RMAF for hosting and sharing.

[@bernhardmichaelfux308]

The Thumbs down are correct here! I only see a bunge of idiots that think: "I can hear myself, so it`s ok!" But it`s not ok! There are microphones for a certain reason, and if they are too stupid to use them, they get the thumbs down! It makes me angry when such an interesting topic is discussed by people that close out the Audience, just because they are to thumb to use the micros...

[@AnalogPlanet]

Bernhard Michael Fux I suspect everything angers you

[@jondubb35]

Bernhard Michael Fux You’re the idiot that watched it. If it’s so terrible, than why did continue to watch?? Go bury your head somewhere and quit leaving troll comments on videos you have no interest in, other than to tell us all how terrible it is. Goddam...

[@jondubb35]

Great video, and yes thank you Michael for bringing these gentlemen to discuss a topic I am highly interested in and passionate about! In fact, I went ahead and ordered a Kirmuss Audio Cleaning Machine!

[@mavallarino]

Men talking about their fluids...and I just wanted to learn how to clean my vinyls!

[@Condorsat10]

Charles Kirmuss took what should have been an interesting video and ruined it with his filibuster, time wasting slides and 30+ year old "don't use alcohol on Vinyl debate".

[@budsmoker4201120]

The more he talks the more a a solid chem undergraduate student in there 3rd year should be able to call him out on his shit. The Bio chem guy was nice to listen to after "Dr. Kirmuss" BS

[@Grooverski]

Ionizer+ cavitation + vacuum + fancy gadget = $5000. That buys you a decent LP collection (brand new) or new turntable/arm/cart.

[@gianpaologliori3604]

I think it’s unfair to say you can’t make your own fluid. I use the very widely accepted mix of distilled water, isopropyl alcohol and a drop of Ilford photographic wetting agent. It’s a bit like saying if you bake your own muffins to an accepted recipe you will die of food poisoning. The problem with Kirmuss is that while there may be some valuable insights in what he says, a lot of it comes across as polemic nonsense. I cite the equating of a water molecule with a water droplet in this discussion as an example.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Ilford photoflow is a monopolar surfactant. It is made to repel water. In a cleaning process we encourage water with a cleaner to be attracted to the record by using a bipolar surfactant. In any solution used do check the ingredients listed as to compatability with pvc. Many people use Tergitol, made if ethylene oxide, not recommended for pvc when consulting the pvc chemical compatability chart. It also us restricted as it is recognized to cause cancer. Many 45's were made using polystyrene. In using and cleaning agent or making one, do check for compatability with the material you are trying to clean.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

We do have images and the science noted on our web site and in our advertising as well as showing the results live in real time at various events recorded by third parties. We have had visits already to the recording academy. Much of the information can be officially registered with the LOC and published only when one of the 4 patents applied for comes through. In any avent, we welcome your phone call and or visit.

[@derekviveiros]

Do you sell a concentrate that I can use in my ultrasonic tank?

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Our ionizing spray cannot be used with other systems for fear of damaging records

[@PassionRecordingStudiocoxnet]

After watching the RMAF2019 Seminar - I thought this might be a great place to look for help. I need help restoring what I believe is an old 78 RPM Lacquer on Aluminum disk that is in very bad condition. A customer of mine brought me a record to copy to CD. When I removed the 78 RPM record from the old envelope he had it in he advised me that he and his band recorded it at a studio when he was a young man. He told me the record was a master demo, that each member had a copy and that his master is the only surviving copy. I first started to clean the disk with non-ammonia and non-alcohol solution and a soft cloth I use on a lot of my old records just to remove enough dirt to get a better look at it. When I looked closer at the record it was in very bad condition. Very dirty and discolored and had lots of scratches, that looked like small cracks in the vinyl and also small bits missing from a couple of places. Two small adjoining narrow pieces about one half inch long by one quarter inch wide fell off that were containing parts of at least two or three tracks. The smallest piece broke into three much smaller pieces so small they could not even be re-assembled. Along the outer one inch of the record large size parts of the record material is loose from the disk and bubbling up in large smooth bubbles. The material is so brittle I am afraid to touch it. When the two small outer pieces fell off I could see that the disk was an aluminum disk. Since he stated it was an old studio master, I think it may be an old lacquer on an aluminum disk. If I could get the disk clean without doing any more damage to it I thing I could copy it and piece it together in the computer. I have done lots of restoration on old tapes and a fair number of old records but I have not run into this type situation before and don’t want to destroy this only copy. After the initial quick clean I did re-attached the two pieced that fell off and attempted to make a slow speed copy of everything to try to preserve something. But even at slow speed the needle jumped some tracks and stuck in other tracks. Those problems I might be able to overcome but I am not sure how to do any cleaning because the unattached parts could break, or fall off. If it is a lacquer disk I am not sure where to go from here. My thanks to anyone, who might be able to help me save this gentlemen’s record. You can reach me through passionrecordingstudios.com or passionrecordingstudio.com Thank you very much for any assistance you can give me Wayne Johnston

[@joshua43214]

13:50 90% isopropyl alcohol is not soluble? Last I looked, methanol, ethanol, and propanol are miscible. 27:90 water molecules are bigger than the groove? HAHA.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Water droplets, not water molecule. Sorry. Do consult the technical papers on ultrasonic technology. The term plasma is not referring to Star Trek. Sonic definitions talk about a wave created. You can see the wave in a sonic tank's (basin). For a layman, take a piece of aluminum foil and insert it into the sonics basin holding it up as a record would. Turn the sonic on. After 10 or so seconds take tge aluminum foil out. The foil will be dimpled. This a result of the wave created by cavitation.

[@johnholmes912]

that guy know f'all about basic chemistry

[@joshuafox2199]

Yeah chuck snuck his poster by registration too. The lady in charge tore it down as I was walking by one morning.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

She allowed the sign. The sign was removed by the venue not knowing it was allowed.

[@anjovandijk9797]

If you need a surfactant to get in de groove, how does dirt get in the groove in the first place except through the stylus. So I don't buy the fungus in the groove claim.

[@TomnJudy]

I have lost all respect for Michael Fremer. Charles Kirmiss maybe a marketing genius but he doesn't know a damn thing about cleaning records he's so full of BS it's coming out of his ears the only one with any chemistry background was the gentleman from okie noki, and he hardly got to say a word. I'm sure that most of these gentlemen are hardworking individuals trying to make a living but but few if any of them have any of the basic knowledge of the basics of chemistry involved in record cleaning the whole discussion is a joke and kirmiss should have been laughed off the stage.

[@paultopace1234]

The thing that throws me off the Kirmuss system is his anti static spray that is something like what's in radator coolant. Radiator coolant is very sticky when it dries up. I don't want any of that near my records even in the very light manner of applying it that he shows in other videos.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Respectfully, I beg to differ. Used by custodians to restore and not just clean records we are the only manufacturer to describe our process and measure our results by our 3d measuring device, using Sugar Cube, and signal analyzers. Lay people can hear and measure the results using a vu meter. Industry peers still hide the chemical properties to buyers to allow the public to check for compatability to the material that they are attempting to clean.

[@Hoss1492]

Charles is hell-bent on building a clock when I believe, the majority of people watching this video or attending the presentation just want to know what time it is.

[@CdnCharmer]

TIME..... The fact is: the Kirmuss Record Restoration Method / Machine does work and does a fantastic job, the downside is "Time" ... The time I spend listening to my records for me is valuable, and listening to pops and crackles is irritating. I do own this machine and researched the various products for three months prior to pulling the trigger. I corresponded with various suppliers including Mr. Kirmuss prior to obtaining the method of choice. His approach is scientifically proven with evidence that backs his claims as other panelists with "secret sauce" do not. If you invested in the TIME it took to watch the complete video, did you noticed that there was one panelist who barely said a word aside from his introduction at the beginning of the video? If TIME was wasted, it was his... or .. did he actually learn something from the other panelists who submitted very interesting comparisons to methods presented?

[@Hoss1492]

@@CdnCharmer You spent a lot of TIME devoting responding to points I did not make. Did I criticize the Kirmuss machine? Michael did a poor job moderating a very large panel. I've meet Charles and Michail and wanted to hear everyone's point of view. Michail tried to look for commonality but was never able to pull it back. People who didn't speak as much is absolutely no reflection of their knowledge or opinions. Some people are respectful to the moderator and don't need to be a bull in a china shop regarding a topic that has many opinions. So what speaker wire do you own :)

[@ThomasRodriguez]

@@Hoss1492 Kirmuss just seemed hellbent on getting honest, accurate, scientific information out there. As far as his machine goes you can clean with it in 2 minutes which is just as good as any. However in addition to cleaning you can restore with his machine. Seems to me, he is the most critical guy to this discussion and was even endorsed by the host.

[@rickmilam413]

Two minutes? Two minutes? Reminds me of the money pit (We tell everybody two weeks". I've cleaned hundreds of LP's on a Kirmuss. I've never cleaned one in two minutes. I'm sorry, Charles, I like you but....Two minutes?

[@isawlindsey]

I wish that guy in the middle would just shut up.

[@ewengallacher1163]

After watching this video and as a current user of the "French" product, I was really concerned. My bottle of concentrate currently has what appears to be "mold floaters". So, I contacted the company direct for explanation. I cited this video too. It appears the panels claims regarding mold in this product may be at best, unintentionally misunderstood. Further clarification is still needed tho. However, the chemist who invented this product stated it is normal for there to be particles (mold-like) floating in the concentrated solution. As Gian Paolo Gliori states, this was the top recommended product for several years and is still backed by reputable suppliers today. I do hope this has not been a case of dishing the dirt on a competitor company not there to defend itself? Would have been helpful to hear more from the bio chemist on this #moldgate allegation instead of from others pushing their own products.

[@paultopace1234]

Hmm I was just about to buy some of that L'art cleaner. But seeing as some people complain that it leaves residue and knowing that it grows mould. I don't think its a good idea to have that on my records.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Always ask any manufacturer as to what they use in their solution before using it. Check the pvc chemical compatability chart available on the web. If the manufacturer does not provide the ingredients as required by law, don't use it. Note where many 45's were made of polystyrene and not pvc.

[@gianpaologliori3604]

OMG can’t stop commenting on this.... I remember that “French” product was the top recommendation of all industry authorities for a while. I had some and it went mouldy. My homemade formula improved discs cleaned with the French “product du jour” 😐

[@gregalee]

I know *precisely* which product you are talking about and I never used it. It set off my BS detector faster than you can say "AudioQuest". What was it called, "L'Au du toilette"? LOLOL

[@danender5555]

@@gregaleeIt is incredible how easy this overpriced BS product is bought by audio enthusiasts.

[@rickmilam413]

One of your panelists seems to have been a bit dominant (being tactful). I sell and use the product but.... There are lots of smart people up there.

[@ghiagoo]

Michael thanks for doing this panel. Been wondering about the fluid cleaning systems. I have a discontinued Crosley record cleaning kit, similar to the Spin Clean. It didn’t say anything about their cleaning solution. Seemed to work fine. When it ran out, I ordered the Spin Clean Wash Solution, because that’s what was available on Amazon. I don’t know anything about what’s in it. Seems fine. Don’t know about the long term effects on my records. But I’m sure it was better than just playing the records as is

[@dcrook232323]

The Spin Clean device & modest amount of their solution works VERY well as long as you dry with ultra clean absorbable, lint free towels.

[@charleskatz2606]

Spind Disc would be a good pre-clean is my guess.And George Merrill's sink placed pressure washer.Why would you go from tag sale to a KAN machine or even lessening life of felt lips?

[@youtubejunkie7283]

Michael Fremer's recipe for enjoying vinyl 1-Win the lottery 2-Buy a $30,000 turntable 3-Buy a $5,000 cartridge 4-Buy a $6,000 record cleaner 5-Now you can enjoy your $5 records If you don't follow these steps,you're just a peasant and you don't deserve to enjoy the hobby

[@chris1275cc]

No I'm sorry Fremer may fall for the snake oil from time to time (i suspect willingly) but he has also made lots of videos and given interviews where he recommends good quality entry level equipment and is always telling people to enjoy their records. I have never seen him be condescending to people who can't afford high end gear, only helpful. Unlike many audiophiles I know who would rather go back to the 90's when they could still pick up first pressings for $1 in a goodwill he wants the younger generation to fall in love with vinyl, that's why he has such a problem with those shitty Crosley TT's because they give a bad first impression and put the younger generations off.

[@charleskatz2606]

Well I am not so sure you can't make your own juice.I mean if this was a panel on apple juice would they say "Don't grow your own apples and don't buy a press".But one thing I believe is easy and right on get a mat for your machine.Cork on my VPI?Not as bad a felt but I just got a junk table at Goodwill and took vinyl mat and clean it with fluid every few cleans

[@cengeb]

How do they get away without proper labeling on the fluids, telling you what it is. there are labeling requirements on all products. Maybe the FTC should go after these nudnicks?

[@D800Lover]

Oh boy, this is all so American. Greetings from Down Under.

[@cengeb]

VPI doesn't label ingredients, how do they get away with that? My bottle has no ingredients listed, probably violates labeling requirments

[@EddieJazzFan]

Yeah I always thought they had to list the ingredients on consumer chemicals in case of someone drinks it by mistake???

[@cengeb]

@@EddieJazzFan EXACTLY, surprised these jokers are allowed to have this stuff on the market...and why no VPI or other goofballs stuff have any UL or ETL listings?

[@_synthicyde]

@@cengeb It's because if they actually listed their components, they'd have to stop selling it. I know exactly how it's made and I think if people knew absolutely no one would buy it anymore.

[@cengeb]

@@_synthicyde FTC labeling requirement VIOLATION, I want to know what's in stuff, especially for poison control etc. It violates so many consumer protection rules, like most makers of stuff in this industry...but I guess they are too small for the FTC to care, until someone gets sick or something, and then it gets expensive for the mfg, for not following the rules. Just like no UL or ETL tests and labels on the stuff, it's like they all want to not follow consumer protection rules, and laws..But lawyers go after the big money, the majority of these companies are tiny, irrelevant operations, I bet the FTC would have a hard time collecting fines, they would just go out of business and hide..

[@danender5555]

@@cengebIf you are worried about the stuff contains, and seller does not wanna tell you, you still have an option available to not buy such a product

[@TranscendentBen]

I've successfully used the wood glue method with the original Titebond glue, though I'm a little paranoid and did a rinse with water on a vacuum system. There's a big long thread on AudioKarma about it.

[@paultopace1234]

I did use wood glue once. It was actually my first record cleaning attempt ever. I was amazed by the difference that it made to the total clarity, not just removing the pops. My issue is I don't believe it will always pull off in one piece, especially if the surface is a little scratched. I think bits of glue could break off.

[@vcp93]

Really great panel and discussion. However I had a question regarding what can and cannot get into the groove of a record. Did I hear one of your panelists say that "... water molecules are too large to get into the grooves of a record" or something like that? Wouldn't a dust/dirt particle (forgive the term) be larger than a water molecule? Thanks Michael, great work.

[@koylesmasterpeice]

They explained that it has to do with the bond between the water molecules that prevents them from reaching deep into the groove. Thus the use of a surfactant is important. Cheers. Karl

[@V96GLF]

Yes, he did say that water molecules are too large, which is clearly nonsense. Perhaps he didn’t mean it, but that’s what he said. He also said that some alcohols are not soluble in water, which is not correct.

[@vcp93]

@@V96GLF I think you're correct, it was more of a poor choice of words than anything else. I bet he meant to say "droplets". Still it was an interesting demo and the point he was trying to make was certainly clear. He's quite a character, but I believe he's actually done his homework and isn't selling "snake oil".

[@johnsweda2999]

You can get a deionizer cheap doesn't cost $1,000 about 20$ just buy an air purifier ioniser produces a ozone gas changes the positive to negative ions so have this near the record cleaner and one where you store your records, this will filter out pollen bacteria carcinogens. Yes but the paper label will attract moisture over time fungus will be present a diluted of isopropenyl say 50 50 only on on a rag wipe the the paper will take care of it every few years. If it's flood damaged then clean it with isopropanol the cover unglue it first thoroughly dry then paint on the inside with diluted with isopropanol wood glue 10% PVA or non PVA water soluble glue that will sell the cover and protect it 4 the future. You can even iron the cover first to get it nice and flat don't use steam. If the cover is is expanded then flatten under a heavy weights 10 kilos. Simply hit heat up your fluid in the microwave to about 70 degrees and clean out your machine with boiling hot water now and again. Why do they keep saying distilled water you should use deionized water. If it's a vacuum filter I would use a cigarette but filter that is a HEPA filter you could use a water purifier filter like charcoal in the chemical mix cleandown to microns

[@benpit2762]

Please please please ensure anyone who’s talking have a mic for those watching and listening online, thanks!

[@cengeb]

Looks like another outing from the old folks home...and chemicals of dubious merit, and not properly labeled with ingredients, which is FTC VIOLATIONS, consumer product safety rules.

[@analoguecity3454]

I've noticed by my mistakes of the past that when I used isopropyl alcohol on my stylus (not these days), it gets horribly static charged! I stop using alcohol since on records (maybe a tiny bit "very tiny"), and absolutely NONE on my cartridge stylus! Hell to the no!

[@cengeb]

VPI guy is a loudmouth, stereotype?

[@gianpaologliori3604]

Ok Charles if you can’t get rid of the stuck on sleeve plastic how do you get rid of the welded on dust particles? For me this is the no. 1 question. If you believe the theory that stylus pressure melts the vinyl (and not everyone does, at least not for more than a microsecond) then this is a big problem. It would explain why I have some records that no amount of cleaning seems to improve. But I have some doubts as I have not found any records I bought new and treated with care to have developed any serious surface noise, even though I am sure there was dust in the grooves when I played them. On balance, I have a feeling that the unsaveable records were damaged by a poor stylus in previous ownership... 🤔

[@kirmussaudio7578]

As we have pioneered record groove restoration, the premise is where in sonics or with vacuum or in manual cleaning systems, both the water with or without a soap added has the same charge as that of the record. If you recall elementary school science, like charges repel. So even using an ultrasonic machine that creates a plasma wave by way of cavitation, the wave while it approaches the record, is in fact repelled. It does see surface cleaning, visible to the eye. The purpose of record restoration and our process is to attract the plasma wave into the groove of the record. Known fact where the dyne of the needle heats up the record's release agent in the groove, thus microwelding as we term it, dust into the groove. When hit by the needle on the next play, a pop is heard. To get into the grooves and remove the release agent and the captured dust, we spray an ionizing agent onto the record. Thus the charge of the record is changed and now attracts the plasma wave. Those familiar with our process know that we see this charge revert to that of the water over several minutes and cycles. ..., hence the need for multiple cycles. The benefit of our process is where one can see first the rise then the fall of materials disturbed by the brush we use between cycles. In essence if one keeps a record spinning in an ultrasonic bath for hours in a solution of distilled water and a soap, the release agent will not be removed...due to like charges repelling each other.

[@rogerjames6956]

Is this anything to do with music?

[@soundonly2]

Wood glue may be a kind of joke, but PVA-based glue works. There had been (or are) commercial products for the purpose, they do not say their products as pva-based though.

[@pauldemara7633]

100% fascinating discussion. So many nuggets of information. Today's word of the day. Surfactant

[@thegrimyeaper]

Filthy lips with schmutz.

[@TomnJudy]

This video is almost unbelievable,

[@rogerjames6956]

Can you imagine Mr Fremer cleaning his own lp,s don,t think so!! !! People send him lp,s for free!!! Just don,t buy crap Lp,s !!!!

[@isawlindsey]

Came back to finish the video. As much as I admire Michael, most of this is for rich guys to throw their money away on. If what they say is true, 99% of used records are ruined before you get a chance to "clean" them. I'll spend my $1000+ on records and a soft velvet brush with some distilled water and a drop or two of Dawn. Air drying is also free. Turning something you love in to a chore does the vinyl community no good.

[@dulls8475]

After watching loads of videos the only constant method is Distilled water and a soft cloth. No one argues about that.

[@recordsam]

But water has no detergent effect. Water plus dirt = mud, so to speak. Use a safe detergent, like Green Earth Peroxide, and rinse.

[@TranscendentBen]

I think it's funny how they warn against making your own fluid. For vacuum cleaning I use Alconox powder mixed with water.

[@danender5555]

Of course, their products are sold for a pretty penny.

[@dungthoi1379]

For an audio fair, the sound crew is surprisingly amateurish.

[@thegrimyeaper]

For an audio fair, there will ALWAYS be this comment underneath the video.

[@panjin79]

I throw my records on the carpet and let the Roomba run over them a few times. Works for me!

[@onegoodearcanada]

:)

[@lcmont]

@@onegoodearcanada Perfect :)

[@Chunksville]

Jeez once again this shows why people walk away from vinyl you end up more confused after listening to this, you think the mainstream public are going to sit there and clean a side for 10 minutes go clean the other side for 10 minutes we just want to put a record on and play it....I have records going back 50 years which have been played many times sometimes on auto changers from the 60's in those early days and they sound excellent still, other than the typical inner groove distortion and dynamic loss which just cannot be avoided in its entirety due to the nature of the lateral groove. All I use is a carbon fibre brush to clean before playing and the stylus brush that came with my cartridge to clean before playing, I have spent many a trial with vacuum based and ultrasonic based cleaners and to be honest there wasn't enough difference to justify the cost or the time, and these records still have there original paper sleeves in some cases which hasn't effected them too.

[@poetryonplastic]

My VPi machine cleans a record in 30 seconds. Never had an issue, have a collection free of most surface noise.

[@mikemcguinness1304]

There is something seriourly wrong about these guys, don't they know what a mic is for

[@z1522]

5 minutes in, and the fantasy of "microwelding dust at the record factory" comes in as gospel; how much raw dust does the typical pressing factory have floating around, where is it coming from, and wouldn't an air filter in the HVAC solve that? There's no need for record cleaning to be made difficult; the trick all these characters are about is, How to Make Record Cleaning Expensive.

[@MaterLacrymarum]

The guy is a snake-oil salesman, I'm afraid.

[@AudioFanMan]

I for one find value in Kirmuss info. Not sure I understand the haters here. Isnt this to learn ? Oh, you knew it all already ? Make a vid and enlighten us already.... Unfortunately, as a panel of experts I see only a few that should be considered experts and the others as very knowledgeable. Amazing that anyone here could confuse the two... Oh, CD's have there place in the world. Most who can hear that difference know that the highest fidelity isnt from a CD. Sure, they are easy. Sure they dont require work. Nothing of value ever comes at no cost. I cant tell certain colors apart. If someone recognized this, I am not insulted with that truth. Dont be insulted if you cant hear a difference. Dont be insulted if the difference you hear is not big enough to deal with the work....

[@MaterLacrymarum]

Except Kirmuss is well known in audiophile circles. He's not speaking facts, he's a snake-oil salesman. If you've ever cleaned records, you'll know the stupidity of some of what he says. If you visit him at a conference you'll find him wearing a lab coat. He does himself no favors. Honestly, if what Kirmuss says were true, most of us wouldn't have any records left.

[@mikewilliamson1539]

Having just ripped about 100 LPs and experiencing utter disappointment in the shape of my wife’s old Beach Boys collection to the point of the LPs being worthless, THIS is why I prefer CDs. Not only don’t I have time for this deep cleaning, unless the result is free from pops and clicks, the cleaning process is a waste of time. Pops and clicks aren’t warmth, ever.

[@ThomasRodriguez]

Mat seems pompous. I put my faith in Charles Kirmuss. He is very transparent and provides science and fact based arguments.

[@thegrimyeaper]

Kirmuss brought his A game.

[@xvariabledesign]

thanks for sharing this topic. i've been confused by all the technologies and different claims by companies. one company is very outspoken in this panel which is fine as long as claims are true. does anyone know if claims/studies mentioned are published and made available to public? thanks.

[@eddiel70]

There's really only a couple of technologies at play here. Either you use ultrasonic method or a vacuum based method. That's it. Now if you mean formulas that's another much longer story but I have used a large portion of cleaners on the market and in the majority of cases they all work as well as each other because most records are not excessively dirty with mold growth, etc on them. When you get into cleaning really dirty records like that, you may need to consider your formula. But really, this isn't that difficult. Get any decent formula and try it yourself. If you like it keep using it(*). And if you want bang for buck, just get a traditional vacuum based record cleaning machine. They are more affordable than the ultrasonics, which IMO, have not really been proven to clean better than any other machine out there. Yes there are people who swear by them and will tell you otherwise, but that is not proof, that's just conjecture. There's no real scientific testing happening when comparing machine to machine. Any claims made my companies that are not repeated claims already in the public domain aren't available. Companies never really tell you stuff like that. But some of the information mentioned is basic chemistry so easy to verify if true. (* if you use tergitol you need to be very careful. You need to make sure your solution is diluted properly, you need to make sure you rinse really well and don't let it sit on the record for too long. Just put it on, scrub if necessary and then rinse, once, twice. More if needed.)

[@ethanayye4646]

So, does anyone want to buy a record collection and about 7k in audio gear? (Just kidding) This video is such a put off for people wanting to get into the hobby. The extreme snake oil blah blah fungus, molecules, "you're doing it all wrong!" Is insane. Absolutely nothing was said about cleaning records. Pretty entertaining though LOL

[@derekviveiros]

Ya this is a big problem with the vinyl hobby. I just got into it and am loving it. But trying to figure out how to clean the damn records is rediculous. I want the best sound. I'm into hifi, so it's obviously important. But wow nobody can agree on anything. Why can't I buy some damn fluid for my ultrasonic cleaner. Why why why?

[@MaterLacrymarum]

@@derekviveiros If you have an ultrasonic cleaner, be it a 40Mhz model or 120Mhz, all you really need is a little surfactant. All this snake-oil stuff is just silly.

[@losingnemo9655]

VPI representation on this panel was imature at best! The rest of the panel were all focused no matter how long they had to speak. VPI jr. was rolling eyes, yawning etc....

[@matweisfeld3537]

I was also texting.

[@TheMills567]

@@matweisfeld3537 LOL!

[@TheMills567]

What you are seeing is his recognition that this panel is bullshit....

[@rubbinsracingvideos]

He sells some of the world's greatest turntables, I'm sure he knows what's fact and what's BS. If Mr Kirmuss was spouting facts, every turntable, stylus manufacturer, etc would say to use nothing but his system.

[@onegoodearcanada]

@@rubbinsracingvideos as a matter of fact, he lies about "Oracle turntables" using his system because he never shipped them the unit they had originally ordered. Owner is a friend of mine and he has stayed clear of the machine since watching these videos that clearly demonstrate the process is too long. Most RCM's take less than 10 minutes...His machine and process take upwards of 25-45 minutes!

[@hifitommy]

wow, i am surprised this turned into a commercial free for all. it's almost like some of the grandstanding at the Democratic presidential debates. ...hifitommy

[@ChristianGoergen]

So, today we learned that the record industry supplies us with discs that are inevitably harmed, if we play them without cleaning them properly before dropping the needle, because those records are made in dirty plants. I'm cured.

[@D800Lover]

A Canadian upstaging a room of Americans? WOW!

[@D800Lover]

We have had the Terminator and the Governator, now we have the Dominator and he is Canadian? I love Yankees being outdone at their own game. ;)

[@MaterLacrymarum]

Seriously - how many people have had their records eaten by fungi? Seriously.

[@TheAgeOfAnalog]

Not mine personally, but I own a record store, and I’ve seen things… I’ve SEEN things man.

[@cengeb]

Why are the majority of these dumb things NOT UL or ETL listed, or tested for any electrical safety standards, ....

[@kirmussaudio7578]

It comes to first the cost of testing. Then to maintain the yearly maintenance fees.. Many products made do not meet electrical or FCC standards. UL standards are not as stringent as the ones in the EU. CE has many added norms that manufacturers must meet.

[@zenfishbike]

Paralysis by analysis. JFC guys, if you want to encourage newbies to vinyl you better figure out a simple and fast way to clean a frigg'n record.

[@TheAgeOfAnalog]

There are plenty of cheap and easy ways to effectively clean records good enough. This isn’t for “newbies”

[@needley]

All of them Snake Oil salesmen.

[@poetryonplastic]

Mat Weisfeld is a snake oil salesman? Have you ever even used or demo'd a VPI product?

[@needley]

poetryonplastic I have been using Distilled water, 2 caps of distilled vinegar and one drop of washing up liquid for 45 years and I have clean, surface noise free records. I have been told "VINEGAR? How dare you use VINEGAR, it will ruin your records. Well if it does, it takes longer than 45 years as my records are still as clean sounding from the day i cleaned them. These people have to make a living and I get that, not saying their methods are useless, there are just extremely cheaper ways of cleaning records but they will dispute that because they have invested a lot of their time and money into these products that they try to sell you.

[@cengeb]

@@poetryonplastic Grossly over priced stuff, I have a VPI TT....Look up the orignal VPI magic block, absolute BS.

[@UberPilot]

I get it. Lots of BS because of marketing to rich deaf people. I think BMWs are junk. If I thought it was ALL BS would I spend time commenting or watching videos? That would be beyond pathetic......................

[@paultopace1234]

@@needley Vinegar would clean the mold so that is good.

[@cengeb]

That's why CD's where invented, I never clean my CD's.....i save a lot of money

[@danender5555]

But you are totally unable to remove any loudness crap from it.

[@TMWSTW-hy5ph]

@@danender5555 it would depend if they are pre 2000's or 2000's+.

[@rogerjames6956]

U S, B,s as normal.

[@cengeb]

Look at that audience, it's an outing for old folks home, oy vey....Vinyl is a dead product....

[@EddieJazzFan]

Maybe, but I think it may be because only older (wealthier) folks can afford to travel to this seminar and/or don't have to try and get time off of work to attend.

[@angusvanhalen2886]

ya thats why its the biggest selling tangible format in audio, for several years. because its dead.

[@cengeb]

@@angusvanhalen2886 Funny stuff, biggest selling, "tangible" format..in audio, it's an irrelevant media, IT'S a DEAD product...7 Billion people in the world, 30 million records sold, are you not good a basic math? Oy Vey. Selling $3 record for $30,$40 is certainly making some lots of money off the old fools....The Rotary phone business is the next big comeback? Will be the most dumbest selling product in communications, just like vinyl records are in 2019....I guess you don't have any recollection of the time, when records where the media, no other things available, until cassette took over the market, then CD, ya know, things progress, they don't go backwards, wake up

[@angusvanhalen2886]

cengeb ah yes progress, like the cassette, cd mp3, all progress in....convenience. And as I can tell by your comment, and misinformation (30million records sold?? Lol) that you’re simply...how do u say in Murica, ‘special needs’?

[@cengeb]

@@angusvanhalen2886 How many records where sold in 2018? If you weren't around in the 1960's when records sold millions a week, vinyl is a dead format, like rayon bias belted tires and AM radio.....do you still do blood letting with leeches to cure ailments?