Robert Hewison on the film Effie about Ruskin's marriage and why it failed

[@storyvi9530]

My ex was impotent. We were both 18 at the time. My first serious relationship. I never heard of or understood impotency. We were together for a year. I was virgin before and after that relationship. But he never explained or told me anything. Instead he pushed me away and said I was too ugly. When I dumped him, he broke down in tears and begging for another chance but I was done with being bullied. Years later I learn about impotency and realise that was what was wrong with him, as well as an awful personality. Ironically I am asexual, no libido. I can easily live without sex. So had he been a good person we could have still been together. But he was evil.

[@petrichorweather350]

I just finished watching the film on Netflix and i really hate Ruskin like damn he's one of the worst husbands in history

[@nobodyowens8159]

Poor Effie Gray .it's wondrous she escaped Ruskin , being made to feel her body is not normal for 6 yrs by Ruskin to then have 8 children with Millais , whom she loves ,is so fantastic . What a tale of escape and return to freedom. Wonderful.

[@sabineb.5616]

nobodyowens, it's far from clear that Ruskin ever told his wife that there was something wrong with her body! Effie and Ruskin both used the word "person", and it's more than likely that "person" meant "personality" and not "body". Of course that didn't make poor Effie's situation easier!

[@nobodyowens8159]

@@sabineb.5616 no I don't agree with you .Ruskin was shocked on the wedding night to see she had pubic hair and never consumated marriage in 6 yrs , Effie was made to feel her body was not normal by Ruskin untill she left him and met Millais who they had 8 children .

[@sabineb.5616]

@@nobodyowens8159 , you may not agree with me, but there isn't a scrap of evidence that Ruskin was shocked and disgusted by Effie's pubic hair when he saw her naked for the first time! Neither Effie nor John Ruskin, who are the only persons who could know this for sure, ever claimed such a thing. This story about Effie's allegedly disgusting pubic hair was spread in a book written by Mary Lutyens. But Lutyens merely speculated, because she believed it was possible that John Ruskin simply didn't know what the body of a normal naked woman looked like. She herself retracted the story later and admitted that there was no evidence at all. But this story would not go away - maybe because it was such a simple and compelling explanation which seemed to affirm John Ruskin's reputation of having his head in the clouds. Some of Ruskin's early letters to his wife have survived, and they reveal that he was initially very attracted by Effie's naked body, and they always slept in the same bed. When he later claimed that he was disgusted by her person, it's far more likely that he was talking about her personality and not about her body. We will never know for sure what exactly was going on in John Ruskin's head, since he never stated explicitly why he was so repelled by his wife that he couldn't bring himself to make love with her. Robert Brownell speculated in his book "Marriage Of Inconvenience" that Ruskin learned shortly before he married Effie, that she probably didn't marry him for love but for the money of his wealthy family. Effie, who had known Ruskin since she was a child, had refused to marry Ruskin when he proposed for the first time. But she might've been asked by her family to accept Ruskin's second proposal, since her father was on the brink of bankruptcy. Ruskin's father did indeed help the Gray family to avert bankruptcy. But it's possible that John felt he didn't want to have sex with a woman who didn't love him. He said later that he had hoped that love might develop eventually. But John and Effie were totally incompatible, and they resented each other more and more. They were both trapped in a marriage that didn't work at all, and they were victims of Great Britain's restrictive laws which made a regular divorce virtually impossible. The annulment because the marriage was never consummated must've seemed to be a great way out of an impossible situation.

[@nobodyowens8159]

@@sabineb.5616 Ruskin was controlled by his mother and was not emotionally able to be intimate with Effi ,this could be for various reasons that go much deeper than a hatred of public hair , intimacy never occurred and Effie was desperately unhappy and had to end the marriage. Effie wrote to her father: 'He alleged various reasons, hatred to children, religious motives, a desire to preserve my beauty, and, finally this last year he told me his true reason... that he had imagined women were quite different to what he saw I was, and that the reason he did not make me his wife was because he was disgusted with my person the first evening.'

[@sabineb.5616]

@@nobodyowens8159 , yes I agree with your assessment of the marriage. The wedding night might not have been a success for fairly common reasons which have never been openly explained. Ruskin may have been unable to cope with a naked woman because he had never been in that situation before. Maybe Effie had her menstruation. Maybe, both were simply tired or had a cold. It's quite possible that Ruskin and Effie didn't even see each other naked during their honey moon! In those days most couples weren't completely naked anyway when they had sex! It was also quite common that newly married couples didn't have full blown sex during their honey moon, because they wanted to learn to know each other better, or they didn't want to start a family just yet. However, Ruskin and Effie didn't manage to overcome these early hurdles. Btw, Ruskin said many years after the annulment, that after the five-year celebacy period which they had agreed about in the early days of their marriage, was over, that he had offered to consummate their marriage. But according to Ruskin Effie hated him so much by then that she was the one who strictly refused to be intimate with him! While we need to take everything which John and Effie said about each other later with a huge grain of salt, I think it's quite possible that after having been married for five years, Effie and John disliked each other so much that both of them didn't want to have sex anymore. We will never know for sure. But it's highly unlikely that the early problems shortly after the wedding were solely responsible for the total disaster of that marriage.

[@markconstance4477]

“And Rose, who was a very strange girl.” Wow. Just Wow.

[@elizabethfaraone]

From the writings of Ruskin and Effie, it is clear that he was dominated by his parents and he believed it was his role to dominate women he thought he loved. He was attracted to young girls for their looks, desirability and ease of domination. Although this was common then and now, it was never right. Every society has wrong ways of existing. That does not excuse bad behavior. Nevertheless, Ruskin contributed so much good to the world. He also severely harmed at least two women. I’m only just starting to learn about Ruskin.

[@sabineb.5616]

Elisabeth, great that you are able to see Ruskin in a more nuanced way! I think that Ruskin was a flawed human being as well as a great and original thinker whose thoughts are still relevant today. And people who side solely with Effie often overlook that after she had managed to get out this disastrous marriage, she was able to marry a famous painter who truly loved her, and with whom she had many children. If Ruskin had testified in court and declared that he wasn't impotent at all, but that he simply disliked his wife, the annulment wouldn't have been possible! His refusal to have sex with Effie and his silence made the annulment possible. And Ruskin never managed to have a fulfilling relationship. His lot was much harder than Effie's. And if the marriage had been consummated, the annulment wouldn't have been possible, and at the time it was virtually impossible to get a regular divorce! Couples who could not live with each other anymore, could separate, but they could never marry again and have legitimate children. That said, there were nevertheless many people who didn't give a toss about what others thought about them, and they loved and lived with whom they wanted. And many of these bohemians and free-thinkers were women! Lady Hester Stanhope, Mary Wollstonecraft and her daughter Mary Shelley and the French writer who called herself George Sand lived a surprisingly modern life. But because of the restrictive legislation women were far more vulnerable than men. For Effie it was important to have her place within the British establishment. Leaving Ruskin and living a bohemian unmarried life with Millais, as many of the othe pre-raphaelite muses did - wasn't an option for her.

[@nobodyowens8159]

@@sabineb.5616 Effie divorced Ruskin in 1844 , Effie did marry Millais in 1855 and went on to have 8 children with him .that's a more traditional marriage than bohemian.

[@sabineb.5616]

@@nobodyowens8159 , I agree. Effie's life with Millais was very conventional in many ways. I said in my previous comment that Effie wasn't a woman who would've simply left Ruskin and lived with Millais without being married to him. And Millais most likely wouldn't have done that either. Effie didn't even want a divorce from Ruskin because she didn’t want to be a divorced woman, who were stigmatized for the rest of their life! Effie and Millais weren't like Dante Gabriel Rossetti and Lizzie Siddal who had lived together for many years without being married. And Rossetti's greatest love Jane Burden and her husband William Morris had an open marriage, but Jane and Rossetti were lovers for many years. Effie however wouldn't have chosen that option. That is the reason why the annulment was so important for her! What I wanted to point out in my previous comment, was, that it wasn't unheard of in those days that some brave women didn't give a toss. They lived their lives as they pleased and they refused to be shackled by restrictive laws and the stifling conventions of their times. But Effie wasn't like these women, and she was gravely hurt that Queen Victoria, who had received her once when she was still married to Ruskin, refused to receive her when she had married Millais because the Queen never received divorced women. Millais and his friends and patrons tried to tell the Queen that Effie wasn't a divorced woman because legally she had never been married to Ruskin in the first place! But for many years the Queen didn't accept that explanation. However, she finally received Effie when Millais who was a baronet by then, was on his death bed with throat cancer. Btw, you got the dates of the annulment of Effie's marriage and her subsequent marriage with Millais slightly wrong. Effie married Ruskin in 1848. The marriage was annulled six years later, and Effie married Millais in 1855. But your assessment of Effie's married life with Millais is correct IMO 😀

[@clementine_0]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting!

[@BlakeHolsey]

I just watched the movie. It was sad to me. But I'm glad she got what she wanted.

[@2msvalkyrie529]

To become a brood mare popping out a succession of kids ??

[@2msvalkyrie529]

The Arthur Miller and Marilyn of their day .

[@HealthyObbsession]

Well given that Joe beat her she didn’t have luck in the love department Joe was mad that she was Marilyn Arthur was mad that she wasn’t

[@2msvalkyrie529]

Very perceptive 👍 !

[@nobodyowens8159]

Def not a comparison to Arthur miller and Marilyn Monroe . Arthur and Marilyn had intimacy unlike Effie and Ruskin .

[@brianrodney712]

Let's face it, he was put of the minute she revealed the map of Tasmania.

[@2msvalkyrie529]

Yes , it can be a daunting experience ..

[@2msvalkyrie529]

PS.....maybe she farted in bed on the honeymoon night. ? That CAN be offputting..?

[@LoveLove-ke6pl]

Sir effie gray and rose la touche is in me this two souls is in me😢 I found ruskin and millias This two souls is in one man too I save this man with god here present from being death...in the event that is a rare event Sir i remember alot... Reincarnation is real believed me sir..😭🥺

[@danvee1804]

sounds like Bullshit to me !!! referencing his marriage to Euphemia Chalmers Millais...but what do I know ....!!!