2207 Solar Power - We Have Been Doing It Wrong

[@gtranquilla]

I lead a PV solar powered RTU project for remote gas well sites over 20 years ago in Alberta Canada. I chose to simply mount all panels vertically on poles aimed due south instead of angling them perpendicular to the sun during the winter solstice. Instead of payiming for angling hardware we simply upsized the panels by one size. Not only did these panels capture reflected sunlight from the snow and ice from the southern solar exposure but dust, snow and ice did not collect on them. Also our design resolved the issue of bird droppings as the birds loved to perch on the Yagi directional antennas mounted on the top of the same mounting pole.

[@kadmow]

- Look at how EdisonMotors are making their solar trailers (marketing through a CAT partnership) for remote BC - etc, simply use a steep A-frame with panels on both sides. Their rationale includes robustness, increased time of collection through out the day and year "switch on" (park facing north-south and the panels will face east-west (IF winter - low sun angle is a real problem turn around for the low sun months - so one side faces south), better thermal convection - and no need for tracking hardware... (Also partial (or complete?? weather covering for the inverter / batteries - not sure how they do battery winterisation /protection.)

[@gtranquilla]

@@kadmow - I have never been impressed by the PV solar panel output. all panels must be positioned towards due south at high noon for optimal performance. And….they are simply oversized and overpriced tricle chargers relying on many Solar hours for a very small electrical load. IR collecting solar panels are far more efficient but produce hot water for heating purposes vs electricity. But need a glycol loop and heat exchanger in winter.

[@AdrianMidgley]

@@gtranquilla Depends what you mean by optimal. In some cases, perhaps many, more power early and late is not less useful than a higher peak power near Noon. The sunlight is free, efficiency is nice, but 20% -ish is OK for now.

[@TimeSurfer206]

@@gtranquilla Well... You are correct, that Solar Heat collectors heat better than Solar Panels do. I will even grant you that they will collect a greater amount of total energy than Solar Panels will. However, when I need electricity, Photovoltaic Panels are still far more efficient. The cost and complexity of converting hot water, or even hot glycol, into electricity is a bit extreme. On that note, I am going to be buying some Solar Evacuated Heat Tubes soon, for heating and hot water.

[@gtranquilla]

@@TimeSurfer206 - only energy science idiots would even think of converting IR solar panel hot water into electricity! 🤪

[@ianking-jv4hg]

Thank you Robert, also with hanging solar panels, they wouldn't collect dust on surface as an angled panel does.

[@dalsenov]

As Warren Buffett once said (about not trading too often) "The biggest success I owe to inactivity".

Excellent video. About 15 during my research and developing solar chargers I noticed the PV panel which used buck converter is cooler than PV panel connected directly to load, even if buck converter draws from PV panel more amps than PV panel directly connected to the load. When we made demonstration in Jena -SChott company to them research department they did not believe it. They suggested it is because difference of temperature probes etc. But we just swapped PV panels and results were as we said. They did not have explanation . That means by drawing current from the PV panel cools the panel !!!

[@StevenKring]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing

[@justtinkering6713]

Maybe the buck converter's output wasn't smooth dc, but chopped?

[@chaorrottai]

@@justtinkering6713 well yeah yeah the current draw would be pusled when using the buck-booster but I think what he's getting at is that the buck-booster allows the solar panel to output it's maximum power, which cools the panel.

[@mikeguitar9769]

Conservation of energy. First law of thermo.

[@mohandamrouche7470]

I wanted to put a buck conveter or step down converter ! So your saying That by implementing a different connexion output you got better result because the panel didn't heat because it wasn't directly connect to the load ? If that's right or i got it worng, Anyways i'll try it soon i guess, but well i'm saying a F*cking Thank you to You if does !

[@timduck8506]

I heard if you have a pool of water below the panel improve the input by 5-15%t. But now you posted this it confirmed this point that others have pointed out. Thankyou

[@mohandamrouche7470]

Same here , even better i saw somewhere someone having made a panel with water closed loop that pass in front of the panel to cool it down and scatter light more efficiently ! having to see the image of a solar panel getting soaked by a hoes made me laugh and think '' computer can be water cooled so why loosing that water 😆"

[@TimeSurfer206]

@@mohandamrouche7470 Helped set up a friend's panels with a closed loop system that had a dedicated panel for the pump itself. A sprinkler bar at the top, and a piece of gutter on the bottom, and, the only water loss was evaporation. If the stream had been a little closer to the house, we could have just tapped off of it.

[@goldcountryruss7035]

Moving the electric cable from the front of the panel would have made an even bigger increase in power.

[@jasonbroom7147]

I was watching that, thinking...is he f***ing daft, or what? Was he trying to keep the output down, on purpose? Mr. Smith is no moron, so why on earth would he have intentionally left the cable shading the panel? Lost all credibility for anything else said in the video, at that point, didn't he?

[@TheQsam1]

​@@jasonbroom7147 since the cable is there in both cases the % change is the same

[@jasonbroom7147]

@@TheQsam1 - Your are reaching conclusions based on facts not in evidence. All we know for sure is he did not move the cable out of the way. I presume he's smart enough to know he SHOULD have done so, and that makes me wonder why he didn't?

[@TheQsam1]

@@jasonbroom7147 he didn't need to, same result

[@jasonbroom7147]

@@TheQsam1 - You don't understand the scientific process, do you?

[@mattsmith6500]

From one Smith to another, you’ve got one of the best channels on KZbin…period. Great stuff! Thanks

[@ThinkingandTinkering]

Wow, thanks!

[@48aces]

And I of course claim him as a Murray😂😂😂

[@rodgersmith4116]

Thank you Robert, I have 3 solar panels for my Motorhome , two are laid flat on the roof, the third is a portable panel that can be angled in multiple positions. I now know to choose the correct angle to increase power output, but decrease solar panel heat and degridation on the portable panel.

[@TimeSurfer206]

Park your RV in an East-West configuration, use Bi-Facial Panels, and mount them vertically in front of the wall of the RV. You''ll need to adjust the distance from the wall of the RV to the curtain of Panels to make sure they get maximum reflection during the day. The whiter the side of the RV, the better, there is a "Super White" paint out now that is the reflective version of Vantablack. Just a thought.

[@RePeteAndMe]

This is a logical extension of the "minute-by-minute" track or seasonal track or don't track debate. Dig deeper and find ramifications that change axioms. I LIVE for changing axioms. Thumbs up. And I still hope we'll connect. Being alone sucks

[@gerryjamesedwards1227]

Fascinating stuff, as always, Rob. I understand that the bi-facial panels also produce more on dull, overcast days, when all of the light is diffuse, making the most of the extra surface area. Very suitable for UK conditions. This makes the idea of buying small plots of land in the right sunny spots and putting up solar panel arrays on it to supply the local community a much more viable one. The initial investment would be a bit lower overall, I'm guessing (slightly higher cost per panel offset by much cheaper mounting hardware and installation labour costs) and it also leaves gaps between the rows of panels to use for other purposes such as growing low-growing crops, or - judging from your results here - filling the space with pent-roof-shaped reflectors to get more light onto the front of one row and the back of another. Perhaps there is a low-level wind turbine design that could make use of the airflow disruption that the panels would cause?

[@vitordelima]

Solar updraft tower, but nobody cared to develop this too much.

[@crackedemerald4930]

​@@vitordelimabecause the towers would need to be like 1km tall

[@vitordelima]

@@crackedemerald4930If it was properly designed, it could be small and generate enough energy for local use (most renewables don't scale up well).

[@petevenuti7355]

I have never never heard of these bifacial solar panels, in general as I understand it efficiency performance drops off dramatically when direct light isn't available or just changing the angle slightly from being perpendicular with the sun even. Also I've been told the reduction in efficiency is greater with higher efficiency monocrystalline silicon , but the drop off in efficiency is a lot less with lower efficiency amorphous cells. All the solar installers around me, and most of my friends opinions, they tell me I'm crazy for not going for the higher efficiency solar panels, biologic is if the efficiency drops so dramatically on cloudy days for high efficiency one but hardly drops at all for a low efficiency one wouldn't I gain more overall in the long run with a lot of cloudy days? A lot solar arrays with blocking and bypass diodes just tend to cut the shaded cells out of the loop!!! Overall getting no power at all. If these bifacial cells could produce enough power to be of significance to someone just from the diffuse light on the back, that sounds like something I'd be interested in.

[@vitordelima]

@@petevenuti7355This explains why organic solar cells (which are very cheap and printed over plastic films) are more efficient on average and this also means that many methods from concentrating solar heat based on indirect reflection also work well with them.

[@Purple_flower09]

Good video. At the start we're advised that wind power is far advanced relative to solar power. But at consumer level there is no wind power option that can pay for itself in a reasonable timescale but solar can pay for itself in 7 years. And that's in north east Scotland where it's very windy and not great for solar because of how far north we are. If anyone can explain this please do.

[@drillerdev4624]

Economy of scale. Small wind turbines don't generate nearly as much as big ones at higher levels. That's why wind generation research is trying to find his "golden" vertical turbine.

[@danedmiston9673]

Based on cost per kilowatt, wind turbines start to compete with solar when the are about 30 to 40 feet in diameter. At 100+ feet in diameter the cost per kilowatt drops significantly. This is why large scale wind farms are much more common than large scale solar farms. For systems rated less than 15 kilowatts solar is the most economical way to go. For wind power efficiency size does matter.

[@Purple_flower09]

​​@@danedmiston9673 thanks that's helpful. So I'd need a turbine which would look huge as well as being very costly. Some potato farmers near me have one, the power keeps their potatoes cool. But they can justify the cost and the visual aspect which I can't. Shame as I like the idea. My solar array is doing well though. It's on the ground so it's not noticed.

[@vitordelima]

@@drillerdev4624This is the excuse being used but a proper wind turbine that isn't that big can supply a small business or home easily.

[@drillerdev4624]

@@vitordelima One that works in an email urban environment and isn't noisy? They're working on that still, AFAIK.

[@zenzen9131]

Anything non-intuitive fascinates me :) Thanks for the info Robert

[@wesrurede]

Super interesting. Now all we need from the manufacturers is solar panels that are 1 cell wide and X cells long so that we can install them in this digital twin array for roofs. Too high in the air above a roof and you risk wind torques. They would need some kind of sandwiched tee shaped mount to keep them sturdy if built within a framed setup. But if it were the flexible design, they could be glued to a tee shaped mount.

[@enigma51ted]

Best science teacher on earth - reminds me of my science teacher 20 years ago....she had huge effect on my learning energy

[@jasonbroom7147]

No, even a half-assed science teacher would have moved the cable so it wasn't shading the panel...something fishy going on here.

[@philbob9638]

@@jasonbroom7147 while maybe not ideal there's nothing fishy, his demonstration was to show the difference a lenticular lense makes. As long as the cable is there both before and after using the lenticular lense then it doesn't impact the demonstration. That is to say while the cable may have a small effect as long as the effect is present in both scenarios it's a reliable constant, not a variable that will skew the results from the lenticular lense.

[@hunnybunnysheavymetalmusic6542]

I just saw this, it reminded me of a WHOLE LOT of things... So I figured I would share this with you. Its making me think very deeply about the technologies I spent years working on!

[@DJ-uk5mm]

Wow. Just what I needed. To know I’m about to install an off grid solar system for a small holding and I was going to do a ground mounted system And I was thinking that as also needed to put up fencing. I could hang the panel vertically, but I thought my efficiency would be reduced . i’ll give it a go now I’ll send this to my bro

[@MinusMedley]

Interesting, no doubt. Practical? Not from where I'm standing. Physically install some solar panels, and you'll understand how the same equipment built to withstand the elements are extremely fragile at the same time. A 5% gain is not good enough, doesn't justify the phrase, "doing it wrong". Like you said the technology behind the solar cell has stagnated, this is simply a band aid for an age old problem. Solar panel mounting systems have already been standardized, battle tested and are mostly affordable - considering how economies of scale already dominate the industry. Kickstarting a niche product just to put panels vertically would most certainly under cut all the potential savings/yields.

[@vitordelima]

Meanwhile heat engines/generators and solar concentrators are still progressing.

[@buffplums]

Absolutely fascinating Robert.

[@Bozemanjustin]

0:38 I've said people are using solar wrong for so many years. I live in South Florida. It is criminal that we even have hot water heaters here. I used to have a black garden hose, it was 75 ft long, you had to run it for a few minutes before you could touch the water because it literally came out. Steaming I had a sink outside that didn't have access to hot water... I could fill the entire side of a kitchen sink with the hot water from that garden hose and it came out hotter than the hot water came out in the house. 5 minutes in the sun and the hose would be exactly as hot as again and I could fill the other Sink up. So just from a 75 ft garden hose laying in the yard, every 5 minutes you got a sinkful of steaming hot water for free. Imagine if that was just running all day into an insulated container. Even if you still had a hot water heater, but you preheated your water, the heater would never need to kick on. You would use zero electricity to heat your water. Also, the hot water from the shower hits your body and then goes down the drain 98% of the heat just left your house If we simply had a heat exchanger on your drain pipe with the cold water line passing through it, you could reclaim a good portion of that heat, making it even more efficient to use solar heating.

[@marcfruchtman9473]

Thanks for the video. Concentrating the solar power is a good idea. I keep thinking that we should look at hemispheres, however, I am not sure if that would work with the cooling requirement.

[@sorbetingle]

Matt Ferrell on his youtube channel "Undecided with Matt Ferrell" did a piece on vertical solar panals too, from the same study👍

[@janthran]

that guy has a tendency to report on stuff without giving it much of a dive to see how legit it is, though

[@sorbetingle]

@@janthran ok...i will take Mr Ferrell's channel with a pinch of salt, i watch both Roberts and Matt's channels, they both bring some good stuff to the table👍

[@davidaustin6962]

T​rue, though this was a reliable one

[@Milkybar3320011]

I only have a vertical south facing gable end that is suitable for solar panels, so I’m going to hang mine back to back facing east/west and place a light diffusers on the gable end to assist when the sun is due south. You’re a genius, I get twice as many panels installed and I can’t see a downside.

[@TimeSurfer206]

There's a Super White paint out that's the reflective version of Vantablack. You'll want to space the panels from the wall to make sure they get maximum reflected sun. And ofc use Bifacial panels.

[@Milkybar3320011]

@@TimeSurfer206 appreciate the great idea

[@davidaustin6962]

There some KZbins on how to make extremely white paint super cheap with bariumsulfate, used for radiative cooling. Don't pay for the expensive stuff full of titanium dioxide.

[@Okamika44]

@@davidaustin6962 I just made some and it works for passive cooling, but holly cow its hard to make and toxic and not cheap considering the man hours, 16 hours made 3 grams. the bottle neck is centrifuging the nano spheres out. calcium carbonate nano spheres was easier if you want to try it and less toxic nighthawk has a video on it. I did both because making the whitest white paint looks good on a resume lol.

[@ourkilkennyhomestead2006]

Hi Rob, living with both solar and wind in both DIY and pre bought for I can honestly say that there's no way that wind out stripped solar in a fair comparison.

[@danedmiston9673]

Based on cost per kilowatt, wind turbines start to compete with solar when the are about 30 to 40 feet in diameter. At 100+ feet in diameter the cost per kilowatt drops significantly. This is why large scale wind farms are much more common than large scale solar farms. For systems rated less than 15 kilowatts solar is the most economical way to go.

[@vitordelima]

@@danedmiston9673This is the cost for power stations for the gov't and big businesses.

[@evil17]

@@danedmiston9673fun fact about large wind farm maintenance detail, it costs $20,000 to get a guy to climb up to the top to change out the air safety light bulb at the very top.

[@48aces]

Indeed, Scotland outstripped foreign wind farm investment in 2022 than the ROW combined. Unfortunately none are, as far as I'm aware using any of the more effective designs in structure / layout RMS has highlighted 😮

[@vitordelima]

The suspicious people here deleted my reply. HAHA

[@pandemik0]

If you just had some high albedo sheeting, or even just lighter coloured ground, between the rows of vertical panels, you get even more efficiency.

[@offgridwanabe]

I have a hard time believing that I have some vertical panels and they only perform better in the winter months or 6 weeks each side of the winter solstice and I am at 45 degrees latitude. There are a lot of things that determine the productivity in a real life application and not on a solar farm located in prime conditions. But it is always nice to see more experimentation being done with the free energy of the sun with no mechanical maintenance.

[@edwyncorteen1527]

We have a south facing wall that I had some panels added to our other E/W facing arrays, the specific idea was that these would actually produce power over winter as they track the very low in the sky sun, the E/W array produces very little as the angle to the sun is too shallow. This has worked very well adding to the summer output but increasing winter out put by about double and this is only from three 400W panels. Much more work required on vertical panels!

[@Nordictor78]

We focus on the wrong energy. Solar collectors are extremely effective vs solar power. But the holy grail is actually use thermal heat from the ground. Geothermal drilling is the solution to our thirst for heating up our homes. It runs 24/7 and extremely effective. If you look at what most power in private household is, it is heating and cooking. Removing the heating from the electrical bill you don't spend much money on anything else.

[@dashman13]

If you were to "dangle" them as you put it, then these could also act as a potential source from wind power. . Magnets and coils on the standing frame and side of the swinging panel... Fun thought.

[@Andy__A]

So you say, let's put solar panels on the blades of a wind turbine (which will help them stay cooler)? Are there any existing researches / projects implementing that?

[@fireball75677]

combining the fluorescence materials with the light guides on these vertical panels should interesting

[@delicacydelight]

Back in 2019 I designed a vertical mounted hinged solar panel system using sketchup, the idea was so they open like a concertina, suspended from a single pole, a manual winch retracts a steel cable erecting them so that once they're in position one panel is in direct light reflecting excess light to the inverted downward-ish facing panel above it, with this system the panel /sun angle can be adjusted similar to louvred window shades. Some of the other design elements, is the main support RHS pole becomes a single track and the panels are loosely connected to the pole with cleats made from repurposed C Purlin offcuts; to limit the amount of movement during windy weather. Ideally, one would lower the panels in cyclonic and or predicted damaging hail situations.

[@ellooku]

Its the same as mounting panels on a the roof while leaving a gap at the bottom. Roof should be of white colour or zinc. That is how I installed mine and did not regret the decision.

[@Nick_Tag]

thank you Rob!!

[@dr.dolphi8915]

They key kicker here is that morning/afternoon/early evening gets way more efficient, whereas noon (where the sun is highest- as a generalisation-bear with me) the east/west facing dont produce AS much.. .. but since power to X is still kindoff behind East/west makes perfect sence, since most private energy is used exactly when?? -right.. mornings and afternoon/early evening.. leaving the use for massive power to X, investments alot less needed than it does seem to be needed in angled solars peak hours. 😉😉🤜🤜🤜🤙🤙.. feel free to use this statement as you wish..

[@Stolen_]

Brilliant…. Love the content….

[@luckydubeinrc5165]

the studies i have seen with prove of runtime amps proves panels at an angle still produces more power than vertical and the season to season differs as the vertical mounts produce 93% of what the angled produced as was recorded over 2 seasons. 93 % is incredible high but only at a certain time of season, the snow on the ground does have a huge affect as it reflects the sunlight, and the angled panels have the problem of snow build up, but to a certain degree the verticals had the same problem, fascinating stuff as we experiment into 2024. i forgot the youtube channel name, will see if i can find it , was really cool to see al the live graphs over the months of the year.

[@amphibiousone7972]

Good Stuff Robert, Keep'em Thinking & Tinkering. 💪🤝

[@CactusJackSlade]

Very interesting.... coincidentally I was just reading about this study. Thanks for the easy to understand explanations you always give!

[@paborralho]

Great video. I think maybe on vertical panels the heated air near the cells flows faster upwards, thus cooling the panel more efficiently. Well, thinking more deeply it may be the opposite, cause hot air from lower part of the panel heats the upper part.

[@scotthenry3401]

Interesting... mirrors absorb more light than they reflect, a matt white reflector will work at reflecting more light.

There was an idea which got in that time. It works, but seems not practical on large scale. Buck converters use inductor to go step down and they need voltage difference to be more efficient. Instead regular inductor I used fan directed to back side of PV panel. When there was not enough energy to drive fan, it worked like solid state inductor. It was not problem because the PV panel wasn't hot then. There are two effects in the same time . the first one is because the fan was close to back side of PV panel and it was some kind of load, second is that it cools PV panel. But when my team and me had discussion is it worth to go in that project, we gave up because of price and so many things a side told us that it will not pass.

[@Czarewich]

Could you do a lenticular lens made of that UV material you had in your previous video? I wonder what the total gain would be.

[@jys160]

Plus shanging the panels vertically less dirt and snow will collect on the panels.

[@earthlingthings]

Also, in my experience, the greatest loss in solar power is the "storage' of it, since most batteries go into 'float charge" by mid day

[@mikeguitar9769]

Yes, and the electricity produced in early morning and late afternoon is probably worth more per kWh than at noontime. Solar concentration not only increases current, but also voltage! Efficiency is higher (if cooled). I calculated that a low solar concentration gives max efficiency, while a higher concentration ratio gives max power. Use the heat to offset the cooling cost. Where fresh water is plentiful, simply evaporate it to the atmosphere. Where it isn’t, maybe use it for distillation of salt water.

[@davidaustin6962]

Yeah, the thermal issues suggest we are doing it right. But we can and should do more engineering to make using reflectors worth it in large utility installations.

[@j.christie2594]

Pushing the limits, questing for Vista. Keep pushing Sir, your a Hero to geeks, nerds and Intellectuals.

[@mkogrady6078]

If infrared heats up the panels, can you filter just the red wavelengths to reduce the thermal influence on panel efficiency?

[@ferrumignis]

That would also reduce the amount of visible light coming through, since filters always have an insertion loss.

[@kadmow]

Hanging the vertical array (literally allowing to swing in the breeze may reduce wind damage to the whole array in storms - AND the verticality will minimise (or eliminate) potential hail damage - - Aligning the axis lines North-South, the thermal heating will be lowest when the sun is highest - and there will be increased time of collection as the sun rises and falls - for midday (noon) collection - "circular" - (or a morep otimised ?/ hyperbolic) reflectors located on top of the rows will distribute the "insolation" to adjacent panels. ??

[@H4N5O1O]

why arent solar panels having tubing to/from a heat pump fitted to the back to use the heat better ?

[@RaperJason]

Again an interesting vid Robert as with all your vids it made me think do you know if anyone has tried imersing the solar panels in say 3" of water layed flat would this cool the panel and magnify the light maybe even stick a lens on top as well just a thought that I won't have time to try also living in pembrokeshire we get more rain than sun 🤣

[@551moley]

400w + solar panels are now freely available for less than £100 and they work reliably, a 400w wind turbine isn't available for anything like £100, £700 to a £1,000 gets you something very unreliable at best. My 4kws of panels produced just over 4kwh today, on an overcast UK dull day!

[@gindyman1]

Would hot mirror film keep the panels cool and allow the usable light to pass through?

[@RioSul50]

As I understand it, as the solar cells heat up (due to extra light) they become less efficient. That could counter the gains due to the extra light.

[@ferrumignis]

He clearly explained this point in the video, did you not watch it all?

[@RioSul50]

I have seen a video before that did an extensive trial on many solar panel/extra light with documented results.@@ferrumignis

[@AdrianMidgley]

It doesn't.

[@john_blues]

Interesting. I'm hearing 3-5% efficiency increase, but also 3-7% more costly. Doesn't seem like a gain. I suppose if you're a manufacturer and not a consumer this looks a lot better.

[@DaremoKamen]

Just had an idea, what if you combined acrylic focusing with vertical mounting? Your acrylic panels are mounted on an East West line, and the pv cells are mounted on their edges, perhaps the two side edges and the bottom edges. The acrylic would gather light from both sides, and it would give you a way to experiment even if you didn't have access to biphasic pv cells

[@justtinkering6713]

I like the idea of using TEG modules in conjunction with a concentrating solar collector. That way I get heat as well as electricity.

[@popuptoaster]

I have solar panels with water tubes on the back that both heat water and carry heat away from the panels.

[@justtinkering6713]

@@popuptoaster great idea.

[@vitordelima]

Heat engines, they generate so much power the photovoltaic cells may be even useless under concentrating solar. This happens because most of the incoming energy from the sun is infrared and ignored by the solar cells.

[@ferrumignis]

TEGs are disastrously inefficient, and fairly useless at relatively low temperature differences.

[@justtinkering6713]

@@vitordelima Concentrating solar, I meant parabola heating a fluid to boiling temperature.

[@simonpannett8810]

Yes, heat is the killer of PV outputs and along the equator the vertical solution could be a better answer especially when combined with agriculture???

[@mikeguitar9769]

In natural convection cooling “Heat rises”. Convective cooling (of a flat plate)!works better in a vertical orientation because there’s less resistance to air flow.

[@mikeguitar9769]

Higher mass flow rate of air and/or lower average air temperature and/or higher reynolds number.

[@ArjayMartin]

Have 'horizontal' ones between the vertical ones = less footprint and more reflection not being wasted.

[@ferrumignis]

Vertically mounted panels may also be less prone to damage from hail and almost certainly will require less cleaning. Wind loading may be more problematic though.

[@eeledahc]

I took apart a projection tv and put the fresnal lens on my solar panel but it didn't do much even with a frame about an inch above the panel. Didn't think of using it to project additional light with the mirror onto the panel. May try that out.

[@ferrumignis]

Not a surprising result since the lens itself absorbs some light.

[@thevoiceharmonic]

By coincidence, I sent a question to New Scientist 5 days ago asking why solar panels are white on their underside when black would dissipate more heat and increase efficiency of panels in hot climates.

[@evil17]

Not sure I can agree with this reasoning. White reflects light while black absorbs it and converts it into heat, any reflection on the back of the panels would potentially increase the panel heat. Many flexible panels used on vans & 4wd’s, etc, are black on the rear side and dont generally last long compared to their heavier glass house grade panels, they also suffer heat buildup from not getting airflow under them like the house panels when attached to framework a few inches off a roof surface.

[@jobloggs6528]

That’s amazing, and as you say counterintuitive. Hanging solar panels in the worst way has the best results. To me most consumers want electricity and heating, and PVT like the Spanish Abora PVT at 89% efficiency (if it’s marketing bumf if to be believed seems the best option, as the water cooling of the panel is captured, raising the efficiency of the panel. This has to put through a heat exchanger and utilised, but as most consumers want space heating, it’s a win win?

[@ferrumignis]

You want space heating in winter when there is less light and panel heating is less of a problem, not so much in summer when the opposite is true.

[@sinenomine9093]

We have fixed-angle panels and one of the things I discovered was that even when the sun was low in the sky in either the east or west and the direct sun was shaded by a nearby hill, as long as the sky was brightly lit, the panel could still generate considerable power. But in the case of the vertical panels, is it possible that during the summer months, the vertical orientation will generate more during the heat of the day but in the early morning or late afternoon a traditional slanted orientation would be better.

[@yvanpimentel9950]

watt if you were to cover the solar panels with VCOOL the 3M product that repel infrared allowing visible light to pass thru.

[@kendm9760]

You could combine horizontal wind turbines + vertical solar , horizontal wind turbines in the middle with at both sides solar panels slightly angled towards the horizontal wind turbines, all the wind would flow in to wind turbines, so you're generating electricity from both wind and solar at the same time, you could do it with vertical wind turbines as well but a lot of wind would get lost probably, better to close it up as much as possible.

[@paulgroth3345]

You may be receiving inaccurate measurements as you are shading the panel with power cord

[@Endlouw]

since he is measuring the difference and the cord was present in both tests, it is considered a sistematic error. He is testing in more realistic grounds where the tolerance is much bigger. Also, he is making a quick video as proof of concept

[@SimEon-jt3sr]

Only if the instrument is sensitive enough. Hint. It's not.

[@cerberes]

1.5% is my estimate

[@551moley]

​@Endlouw to my mind the mirror will reflect light behind the cable! So not a comparison, shading is a big problem for solar panels.

[@christianeaton]

A very small amount of shade (even a few percentage of area) will reduce PV output by 50%+

[@Clancydaenlightened]

Use solarpanel thats sensitive to visible light and ultraviolet Not just lower energy infrared Solar panel is just effectively a giant led panel If you backfeed one and stare a camera at it, itll glow in the camera Connect panels via a bride rectifier so current flows in one direction only

[@Clancydaenlightened]

That's how I used to dump codes from dish network and TV remotes, take ir led, wire to line in on computer Record and just point remote at led

[@Clancydaenlightened]

Traffic lights too of they still used dat system

[@Clancydaenlightened]

With two leds and opaque heat shrink and npn transistor you can make your own optoisolator too

[@rdcabal]

solar panels connected to an mppt inverter have starting voltage 13% higher in winter than in sunner. in full sun, the difference is minimal, favoring cold.

[@maddhatter3564]

so , it would seem to explain why my perminant november alligned solar still puts out same power in summer as it would if i tracked the sun. TY BOB

[@Deebz270]

Hi Robert ... How about photovoltaic fabric; do we have any data/research/practical uses/ sources ? I'm thinking yacht sail-plan; self-inflating wing-sails made of PVF...

[@dc1544]

If you install your solar panels for max winter production like mine are They stay much cooler in summer. everyone thinks angle towards the sun. Yes in winter when the air is colder and keeps the panels cooler. I also like the vertical panel way like a fence. a fence all around a house of solar panels, I wonder how much it would produce would the south and north sides even be worth it? or would they with Bi panels make enough power?

[@GofuKyersen]

Decreased Angle of insolation. Bound to decrease the temp, how it increases output is a twister though

[@test-193]

Agreed. Varying the angle of incidence from 90 (the typical orientation perpendicular to the sun) slowly down to zero (vertical orientation) clearly shows the power decreasing as a cosine function of the angle. A vertical panel doesn’t collect ANY light at noon when the sun is directly overhead and the angle of incidence is near zero. So this method relies on vertical mounting and East/West orientation…. But wait! The sun’s intensity is far lower in the morning and evening versus the intensity at noon …directly overhead. Ok, the bi-facial aspect of the panel will effectively double the energy collected in the morning hours. But still… Something’s off with the study and the numbers. I’d like to see a more thorough study. For example, if this method collects XXX Watts, try tilting the panel just slightly off of vertical… perhaps 80 degrees instead of 90 degrees(vertical). You would need to place a second panel back to back and tilt it 80 degrees as well, making a tee-pee configuration. I’m going to experiment a bit with this tee-pee configuration and vary the angle to see if we can achieve more than XXX Watts from the vertical configuration. Even a 15% improvement would be worthwhile. Ahhhh, but this tee-pee configuration requires two panels back to back (at 20 degrees) instead of one bi-facial panel. Hmmmm. This is getting interesting.

[@pjprobertson]

Hello Robert, If solar panels use the visible light wavelengths, and heat degradation is caused mainly by the infra-red spectrum, would it not make sense to split the light. The visible wavelengths could go to PV devices. The infrared to heat devices (capture, sterling engine, or just neglected for now). Just a thought. Love your videos. Best wishes & keep safe, Peter : )

[@shmayazuggot8558]

I get 30% over the rated power for my panels on windy days. Cooling the panels makes a huge difference. Sunny clear day I get 20-30% under the rating.

[@CitizenJourno-1]

I have an idea relating to several of your last videos. Could you hang the panels in a ring And use wind to drive a small motor with a governor To spin the ring slowly which would cool the panels. And hopefully give more power out. Since the wind is adding some free net energy to the system by cooling the panels As well as producing excess harvest energy, it might be a meet use of a combo energy harvester. Might be a neat project

[@ThinkingandTinkering]

it is a neat ide - cheers

[@d.marbus1493]

I've seen solar farms on large ponds, lakes and old waterfilled gravelpits here in the Netherlands. How would you adapt a large rainwater tank with vertical solar panels attached (on a frame work) to cool the panels.? Air circulation between tank and panel wouldn't be enough.

[@blar2112]

3:12 Double the surface area for a 12% increase... Just put there another solar panel and you will increase the output by 100%

[@Ithirahad]

Solar panels cost more than shiny stuff, at the moment. The cost of space is variable.

[@onmyworkbench7000]

I bailed out when he did not move the cable from in front of the panel. All he had to do was turn the panel over cable in was at the bottom, with solar you need give you panel all the help that they can get.

[@stephenjones3737]

If you covered the extra area used by the concentrator in standard solar cells you would get a much better result and keep the panels cooler at the same time

[@ferrumignis]

But then you've spent a bunch more money on panels. It seems like the entire idea is to maximise the yield of panels to reduce the number you need since they are expensive.

[@Kangsteri]

Funny stuff :D Thanks for the information! White paper/cardboard or paint will reflect nearly as well as mylar...

[@TimeSurfer206]

There's a Super White paint out that's the reflective version of Vantablack.

[@bettyswallocks6411]

Vertical photovoltaic panels seem to be the next big thing in renewable energy. They are being fairly widely reported.

[@l0I0I0I0]

Solar power commercially is around 20-30%. Solar for heating can be over 90%+! Solar heating is the way to go! There are ways to use the heat for cooling as well as you know.

[@ferrumignis]

Except when you actually want electricity rather than heat you need to go through all the efficiency losses of a heat engine driving a generator like some early solar farms using thermal collectors to drive Stirling engines.

[@CitizenJourno-1]

Wow... the best I had heard of was 40%... how is that done? At least that's what the Department of Energy says in the US. I'm very interested in what you have. I trust a member on this channel far more. Then the u s government agencies

[@CitizenJourno-1]

Ah... you're referring to different things. My bad. I realized it after re-reading your comment and another one from @ferrumignis . Cheers

[@l0I0I0I0]

@@CitizenJourno-1 It uses heat only and not electrical power. Takes a lot less pannels on the roof and is great for heating and hot water. I've been working on my own design but not there yet. Just need to build it.

[@CitizenJourno-1]

@@l0I0I0I0 I had a friend who used to heat his pool with a black mat. It worked great.

[@markmann7739]

Had an idea that we could use some form of reflective panel to direct more light at the back side. Next thing I know i see an article in PV mag with research on this idea but not with vertical panels...worth more investigation? Would bi-facial still be the way to go or would mounting two mono panels be better?

[@weslingm]

This is great stuff!

[@lClOlDlZlSlGaming]

Let’s do it right

[@paperburn]

did not mention how vertical east west panels are combinable with farming as well. allowing more profit from the field

[@CraigDavies.]

You can buy solar panels cheaper than mirrors at the moment. Would laying the panel flat give the same results as hanging them upright ?

[@TimeSurfer206]

I think hanging vertically allows the heat to be shed faster by convection.

[@sniper100]

moreover, vertical will give more power during winter when sun is low, more sun rays will hit it,ofc they cant shadow themself, but as a south wall on a building will work wonder, electricity and heat one wall of your home during winter - ofc small amount of power and heat, but better than normal 30-45 degree

[@KaliFissure]

Consider that if we put them in a radar reflector type waffle texture of squares, then every photon will hit 2 surfaces. If the panels are all 90° corners, any photon will hit twice. Twice the chance of contract for losing 1/3 in area from the tilt?

[@richbuilds_com]

You can cram in more panels per given area if you hang them vertically too. Obviously they can't get too close, though.

[@jorkirasalas2726]

Vertically mounted PV on "solar fences" have been around for a while & seem to be big in Netherlands, unfortunately UK Planning Permitted Development seems to prohibit in domestic installations as the requirement was for at least 5metres from boundary-a huge waste of PV mounting space across the UK! However WRT the reflector boost idea, how about a fluorescent IR-absorbing layer to convert the heat into usable light- could be machined/printed to get the lenticular effect!

[@AdrianMidgley]

I'm not sure that the material we use for fences or boundary walls is so closely controlled (in the UK) that we may not install a glass fence, a black glass fence, a black glass fence with a silicon internal structure etc. It might be a little exposed to vandals and not maximally exposed to the sun though.

[@philipvecchio3292]

Would you be able to do a solar thermal refrigerator? In caravans or RVs as we call them in America, a lot of them have propane refrigerators that turn the heat of a propane flame into the cooling force for the refrigerator. I believe it's some form of Adsorption refrigerator. Tech ingredients did one form, but it seems like with Caravan fridges being a lot smaller and effective there's got to be a better way.

[@markgeurts258]

Also the power input in winter is much higher😉

[@paul1979uk2000]

I think what will really matter when it comes to solar and wind is going to be small scale, localised and price point. As the tech continues to get better as well as battery tech continues to improve and get cheaper, it's going to allow more of us to go off grid and it's likely more will. Because of that, small scale is going to be important, solar as the advantage in that area because you can plaster solar everywhere even at a small scale, whereas wind turbines don't work that well at small scale for the home, maybe that will change in the future but for now, that's a major disadvantage that favours solar, but wind is a lot better at big scale, but it just stands to reason, that as renewable tech gets better, a lot more of us are going to want to generate and store the energy on-site and probably gridless longer term, which basically means that wind needs to find ways of producing more energy in urban areas at smaller scale and they need to find ways of doing it cheap, because solar is getting dirt cheap and is likely going to get cheaper. On the plus side, there is a lot more creative ideas being done over the last few years on small scale wind turbines, but until any of them hit market, shows a meaningful amount of energy generating in urban areas and can be made for a low price, then honestly, I think solar is going to win out and most of us will just add more solar because of how cheap panels are getting, and it's a shame really because I would love to have a mix of solar and wind together, they would complement each other really well, it would also mean you don't have to oversize your solar setup and you wouldn't need as many batteries as a buffer because having both solar and wind will have more consistent energy coming in compared to having just one of them. As for vertical solar, it's an interesting concept with bifacial panels, but I would like to see more testing of it in different weather environments around the world to see how effective it is, if it works out well, it would be far easier to set up and you could have a lot more of them for the given space and as the video points out, solar tracking wouldn't be as needed as vertical panels would be capturing more light throughout the day.

[@BrentRainbow-rh6xf]

Solar panels were invited in the 20s and they were more efficient my many times today . Brought up by BP. Go figure

[@maddhatter3564]

Problem with wind over solar is Turbines require far more maint. I have solar a set up 10 years ago that have required about 2 hours maint in that 10 years (we had 2 snows in the last 10 years). I also had a wind turbine (for 31 days) till the wind destroyed it. Also solar is silent, Wind turbines sing, and the larger it is the louder it is.

[@nitelite78]

Wouldn't vertical solar panels be better for growing crops in between the rows? Or at least certain crops that need lots of light.

[@RainusBrainus]

Would it be possible to use some kind of thermoelectric setup to use the heat?

[@nirgunapa56]

If the solar panels are vertical what is the effect of changing the distance between them? Could you get more panels/unit area and thus increase the output over conventional fixed sloping panels?