Roller Derby Pack, Proximity, and Position

[@danielalt8365]

Great video! There are some changes from when it was made to the 2017 ruleset: 10:44 2017: *Any* clockwise motion that destroys the pack is illegal. (unless the pack is moving clockwise) 12:15 Out of play engagement only receives an penalty if there is *impact.* 12:55 The actual obligation (stopping vs skating clockwise) of skaters out of play in front is not clear in the 2017 rules. You should probably officiate it according to the flowchart, since that's probably still the consensus, but it's no longer explicit. 20:45 2017: It is now *illegal* to deliberately remain out of bounds, although it does require a warning to be penalized. 23:23 2017: Timing is now *much* more critical than in 2015. If a "no pack" occurs at *any point* during this procedure, there is now an automatic destruction for the CW skating skaters, even if the motion is gradual. 28:15 2017: The exact rules around reentry from the box in front are less explicit, but the consensus for jammers still matches what you are saying here, at least for jammers. (The rules for *blockers* reentering in front are even less clear.)

[@bitchesbruze]

THANK YOU! This is excellent and I've pinned this comment for future reference. I have another two videos to produce before re-doing this, but I will eventually redo this one to reflect the current practice and update numbers.

[@phila.mingdong5529]

This is genius. My head hurts. Scoring 5 points without passing a skater should be a trivia question

[@sunwatr]

I have been playing roller derby for over a year, I have my second ever roller derby game today yet I’m watching this.

[@angelamariehessenius411]

Thank you so much! I'm a new skater trying to learn the rules and gameplay quickly (and keep destroying the pack during scrimmages...), and seeing visuals of the different scenarios is EXTREMELY helpful!

[@SynapticKid633]

A great video. Is going to save me a lot of time with new skaters when they move up into the relevant levels.

[@gwenifyr27]

Thank you so much for this!!!! Understanding the engagement zone and pack has been such a challenge for me, and I absolutely get it now!

[@spookyblaylock8853]

It's 2019 and I'm watching this video. Some rules have changed or been clarified, but this is still super helpful!! 😁👌🏽

[@CCVMoore]

Yes, the rules are outdated, but most of the strategy is still spot on. This speaks to the integrity of the WFTDA rules.

[@CCVMoore]

Be sure to check out the pinned comments because they cover the changes in the rules from when this video was made.

[@spookyblaylock8853]

@@CCVMoore I did!! 😘👍🏽 There have been even more changes with the 2019 update, but this video has been super helpful to a nerdy freshie who likes to study game like it's a university class. It's me... I'm the nerdy freshie. 😂

[@Newsome9465]

You have no idea how helpful this is. I've needed some simple yet in depth explanation on pack. Really good video. I'm currently about to pass the link onto my other newbie team mates xx

[@squeekytoy123]

We make all new skaters watch this (or at least we tell them to!) great reference thanks so much

[@bitchesbruze]

Thank you for this feedback! I really appreciate it.

[@zaicolainen]

Thanks for taking the time of doing this and uploading.

[@Shambhalasaurusrex]

WOW, thank you soooo much for putting this together.

[@refrigerator1256]

In reaction to your 5 point scoring pass explanation around 24:00, That scoring pass would be a 3 point scoring pass. In order to earn the NOTT points for that opposing blocker and jammer, there has to be scored upon an opposing blocker. Which is not the case in this specific scenario :) **Exception** Scenario: Black jammer is on a scoring pass but has not scored any points yet. Black jammer gets send to the box. When black jammer is serving time, two white blockers get send to the box as well. Black jammer is done serving their penalty and reenters the track legally, jam ends. 2 points.

[@bitchesbruze]

The 5 point pass I'm talking about is not a jam end score (7.2.4 and 7.2.4.1). The moment the jammer leaves the engagement zone to the front, she has completed her scoring pass and, according to 7.2.5 she "...will score a point for every Blocker who has advanced ahead of the Engagement Zone." Since she has completed a pass and scored the points, and the jam is not yet over, she would then get the NOTT (7.2.1.1) points because she just scored on blockers in a scoring pass. 5 points. She can't get the 7.2.1.1 points if she's still in the EZ because then to get the points for the OOP blockers, the jam would have to end and you don't socre 7.2.1.1 points after the jam ends.

[@DrNidrog]

So awesome, great work here!

[@SaraGouldsaje]

Thanks for the closed captions! Much appreciated by Deaf/HOH skaters. It looks like the captions weren't edited around minute 15 (and perhaps onward? I don't have time to keep watching right now)

[@bitchesbruze]

***** Still working on editing those CCs. Sorry about not finishing them yet. Once I get them done, there's someone in South America who also translates them to Latin American Spanish. I'll try to make a note to let you know when it's done.

[@my-callbuble1266]

First of all, awesome video! I have advised our entire league to review it to learn the pack principles presented. I want to ask a scoring question as it relates to scenario "I" (as illustrated at 25:32 of the video). I want to modify one aspect of the situation though and say the Blue blocker is not in a penalty, but had been bumped off the track by Team Yellow, before the Yellow jammer passed her at the hips ie. she was out of bounds from a check before the Yellow Jammer arrived. If it ended as the freeze frame at 25:32 where all blockers are in the engagement zone, does that change the scoring in any way? You indicated the score would be 0 for that and I agree, but some people are claiming that going past the OOB Blue Blocker counts as a point BEFORE scoring any points from the 3 skaters in advance of the zone. Hope that makes sense. Thanks in advance.

[@bitchesbruze]

As soon as a jammer passes the hips of an out of bounds blocker, she scores on that blocker regardless of whether that blocker is in play. (7.1.5, *7.2.1*) The score in the scenario you propose would be 2 (passed blocker and NOTT jammer). Staying in the Engagement Zone keeps the forward 3 blockers from becoming points. A blocker physically knocked down is physically passed! I have another presentation on scoring that I do at clinics and coaching sections. 7.2.1.1.5 is clear that if you return from the penalty box behind the jammer, she doesn't earn your NOTT point until she passess an opponent (7.2.1.1). There are a lot of ramifications to 7.2.1.1.5 for blockers returning to the track after completing a penalty. You are NOT required to leave the box. You are NOT required to enter the track quickly. You could even skate a long derby-direction re-entry to stay behind the jammer. As many of us know, a solo blocker does little against a jammer. If I'm coming out of the box and have little opportunity to pair up with a teammate, I'm going to come in behind the jammer and not be a point until it will help my team. If I can get in in front of her and partner up, then I'll do that.

[@WooliestPuma]

This is good. Were there any 2016 rule changes that would impact the info in this video?

[@bitchesbruze]

No rules changes or clarifications that would change anything in 2016.

[@LCCasapulla]

Hi BB - check out Derby Stance Coaching Community. Maha has her feelers out for a less than 5-minute video on “pack definition and engagement zone.” Wondering if you can perhaps craft an excerpt that fits current rules or create a new version?

[@bitchesbruze]

I'm open to requests. While 33 minutes may be too long, 5 minutes is too short to truly cover the topic. Whomever wants this new video should reach to me via email - bbruze at gmail.

[@pdxsk8nfool]

So to put a different angle on the pack/score scenarios from 23:15-26:00, what if the yellow jammer was well behind the pack when the jam ended and there were one or more blue blockers OOP in front of the pack? Would you say that the OOP points earned also earn any NOTT points? I'm inclined to say no and to question the 5-point pass you described in the video segment. Looking at the section on earning NOTT points ( 7.2.1.1 - 7.2.1.1.5), it is a subsection of and directly below 7.2.1, which explains the points scored specifically by passing opponents on the track. That and the use of the word "also" in 7.2.4.1, well below both of the other sections, says to me that these are a separate tally from the points described above that entry.

[@bitchesbruze]

If the jammer were still in the pack (or even still in the EZ) when the jam ends, she'd get the 3 points for the 3 blockers ahead of the EZ (7.2.4.1) and nothing more because 7.2.1.1 says "If the jam ends before the Jammer scores, said (NOTT) additional points will not be awarded." 7.2.4.1 points are only awarded after the jam ends. But the point here is the yellow team has created a pack scenario which rapidly shifted the pack location and the EZ. In my video scenario, we're not talking about 7.2.4.1 points, we're talking about 7.2.5 points where the jammer gets those three points on completing the scoring pass (exiting the engagement zone because her blockers made her exit the engagement zone) and that score happens BEFORE the jam ends so then she gets the NOTT (7.2.1, 7.2.1.1.1, 7.2.1.1.5) points at that moment. Are you asking if the jammer has to be in the pack to score the 7.2.4.1 points? That answer is not clear and is beyond the scope of this video. I suspect the rule is there because, by advancing beyond the EZ, the blockers have made themselves unavailable to be scored on which is an unfair advantage so I would presume the jammer would need to be in the EZ to get those points. But there are NO scoring rules which say the jammer must be in the pack or even in the EZ to score so there's no precedence to say that's definitely the case for 7.2.4.1 points. It's a good question for the WFTDA rules committee. I do a whole class on scoring when I do my travel coaching. I don't know that I'll ever post it as a free KZbin video. While I can lecture on it, it's the kind of topic which really requires an in-person dynamic to really help students grasp all the ways we can earn and be awarded points as well as the affect of speed, math, and time on scoring.

[@pdxsk8nfool]

Bitches Bruze That all makes sense. If 7.2.4.1 kicks in at the end of the jam and those are the only points scored, NOTT points are not triggered by the points scored as the jam ends. If, as in your example, the points for OOP skaters are scored during an ongoing jam, it triggers the NOTT points as points scored during the jam. That seems to fit the letter and the spirit of the rules satisfactorily. Btw, 7.2.4.1 does not require the jammer to be in or near the pack to earn the OOP points. Anywhere on the scoring pass counts.

[@shannonleeann5643]

Thank you,

[@ConorPender]

At 30:42, potentially both teams fielded a pivot and performed star passes.

[@higglytownshero]

So with the 2017 rules regarding scenario I (24:00), I'm looking at it that the opponents weren't lapped (passed twice in a row), so then no points should be awarded if the jam ends with the 3 blockers outside of the engagement zone, right? It looks like they earn a pass, but since a lap (passing twice) never occurred, then no points would be awarded. Or are we saying that the first trip was complete, and this is the scoring trip?3.1. Earning Points - Jammers score one point every time they lap an opponent. A Jammer laps an opponent if they pass that opponent TWICE IN A ROW (without that opponent having passed that Jammer), but score a point only if the lapping pass is earned (see 2.5).

[@bitchesbruze]

Scoring rules haven't changed, but the wording has. This is still a 5 point pass without actually passing anyone and it's because of 3.3 Scoring Avoidance. "If a Jammer completes a trip through the pack (which has been done when the yellow blockers move back) without the opportunity to earn a pass on an opponent, the Jammer is said to have earned a pass on that opponent. This includes but is not limited to opponents who are ahead of the EX when the Jammer completes their trip through the pack... [and] andy Not On the Track Point the Jammer cannot earn because they complete their trip through the Pack without the opportunity to earn a pass on any opposing Blocker (which accounts for the returning blocker and the jammer in the box)".

[@loblolly777]

So in scenario I, is the blue blocker required to re-enter the track once released from the penalty box?

[@bitchesbruze]

No one is ever required to *leave* the penalty box, much less return to the track.

[@loblolly777]

Thank you. So in that scenario, they would be better off staying off the track.

[@bitchesbruze]

With the new rules, in this scenario, they may be better off staying in the penalty box. I'm not certain, if a skater has returned to play by exiting the box but has not yet returned to the track if they then become responsible for reforming the pack immediately if the pack becomes broken. No official can order a skater to leave the penalty box or skate counter clockwise to legally re-enter, but if this returning blocker stood just outside the track behind the rearmost opposing blocker, they may have to come in. If they came straight out of the box and didn't skate counter clockwise, they do not have to skate counter clockwise so they could leave the box and wait trackside without skating clockwise.

[@loblolly777]

Great stuff. Thanks for the responses.

[@danielalt8365]

This has now changed, with a casebook scenario that expressly requires skaters to leave the penalty box when their time is complete.

[@leet5357]

Awesome resource thank you! However in a way it's turning me off Derby :-( I feel a little like how is a human supposed to asses all of this information while hitting and getting hit.

[@bitchesbruze]

As with any skill, with practice, this becomes second nature. I could spend just as long explaining how to navigate traffic on a busy highway and complicated intersections - yet most of us learn how to drive a car. Maybe not in the middle of China, but we can still drive a car. The best skaters, announcers, and referees have these concepts grasped so well it's second nature. They visualize the Engagement Zone without thinking consciously. They can follow a quickly moving pack - not just moving around the track, but a pack that shifts from front to back as skaters fall or go out of bounds. It starts by training your brain slowly - with this video, with photos, with bout footage. Freeze frame footage and see how your thinking adjusts. Then it progresses to watching derby live then playing it. I think it also helps to cross train in different roles (referee, skater). There's a reason it is said that roller derby is like playing chess, on skates, while having bricks thrown at you. This is the chess part of derby! If you can't think 3 or 4 moves ahead, you won't be a very good chess player. :)

[@leet5357]

Thanks for taking the time to reply :-) it probably doesn't help I just came away from.playing my first scrimmage with players from the Belgium and Dutch national team. They all seemed to know exactly what to do and where to be and I felt a little lost. I'll be looking out for your next video !

[@bitchesbruze]

Lee Thomas it won't be long until you know all that stuff too! I've coached in Enschede a couple times. Hope to come back to the Netherlands soon and do more coaching :)

[@SynapticKid633]

+Lee Thomas You'll get there. I am sure you're likely there now!

[@DrNidrog]

@6:28 I said "penalty", woo hoo!

[@raulcaml]

I'm a new ref in a new league. I am being told by experienced skaters that coasting back to intentionally create a "no pack" is legal game strategy. From what I've read in the rules and online it doesn't seem legal and is cause for "destroying the pack" penalty. Is this a new rule change?

[@bitchesbruze]

That is legal so long as the action does not destroy the pack. For example, if there is a forward group of 4 red blockers with 1 green blocker 12' in front of 3 green blockers, that front group is the pack and the rear group is in play. If the green blocker suddenly and decisively stops to join her teammates, once the no pack happens, she is held responsible and should be issued a pack destruction penalty. If she gradually slows while the rear team pulls away it would not be destruction. Now if you're talkng about one team gradually slowing while another team gradually speeds up, it's like a "no fault" and there is no penalty as long as when the no pack is called, that back team speeds up to reform.

[@raulcaml]

+Bitches Bruze Scenario: 4 green blockers actively blocking a red jammer, the 4 red blockers coast back and stop to create a no pack which causes the 4 green blockers to release the jammer. Is this legal?

[@bitchesbruze]

+Raul Lara as long as these things happen gradually, yes. Both teams have the right to influence the speed buy they may not do so suddenly.

[@bitchesbruze]

+Raul Lara 5.10.2.1 - Examples of illegally destroying the pack may include but are not limited to a Skater, Skaters, or a team running away, braking or coasting to drop back more than 10 feet (3 meters) behind the opposing team; taking a knee; intentionally falling; or intentionally skating out of bounds in such a manner that the legally defined pack is destroyed. 5.10.2.1.1 - The rules do not define pack speed. Gradual deviation from the speed of the pack as established through game play is legal, unless said deviation is sudden, rapid, and marked, leaving the opposing team no opportunity to adjust and maintain a pack.

[@raulcaml]

+Bitches Bruze Thanks! I'm about 99% sure what they are doing is illegal because braking/stopping to me is a sudden deviation of the pack speed since it doesn't give the opposing team time to adjust.

[@surethaburrows2806]

4 players get passed..There are 5 puppies.............

[@bitchesbruze]

I'm not sure what point in the video you are referencing, but we usually talk about "passing" blockers. Is the fifth puppy the jammer?

[@annestokes1535]

Rod Stewart