Roman History 33 - Honorius And The Goths 400-420 AD

This is from the podcast series The History Of Rome by Mike Duncan.
He currently does The Revolutions podcast.
www.revolutions...

[@justcarcrazy]

The closer the end of the Roman Empire, the more sarcastic Mike's tone of voice.

[@-timaeus-9781]

I never really noticed tbh.

[@MegaTang1234]

Despite not being an emperor, I find it neat Stilicho still got the "he was x years old and ruled the empire for x years" treatment. He was a flawed fellow, but you can't say he didn't buy the western empire some valuable time.

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Stilicho was a victim of petty jealousies and was far too trusting. Imagine if he had actually ran the table, guiding the empire for a few decades.

[@LTrotsky21stCentury]

Time for what?

[@michaelsmyth3935]

​@@LTrotsky21stCentury not paying attention?

[@jamesdill2197]

Looks like the present U.S.A.!

[@markuskristersson4663]

@@LTrotsky21stCenturyI’d say some valuable time to prevent the collapse of the western empire Which in the end was for naught because neither Honorius nor his successors (except Majorian) would use to actually prevent the collapse of the empire. Poor Stilicho

[@xiaomistijn4743]

started listening to this one month ago when I had the flue. Amazing history, better than any HBO series! Keep em coming, don Timaeus. greetings from the mountains of Bulgaria, or should I say Thracia.

[@trajansmethod2050]

flue us a chimney, flu is an illness

[@lordjimbo2]

Stilicho did the best he could with a 4 and a 9. That's just a ghastly hand. I think he kicked a prodigious amount of ass given the total impotence of the nobility, weakness of recruiting and corruption in the East.

[@Deathskull0001]

Search for his name + badassoftheweek. Hilarious history website.

[@Outlaw8908]

If Majoran was Emperor with Stilicho in command of the military.Then I do not think Western Rome would have been in that bad a situation.

[@riftbandit223]

Honestly if Honorius would've never betrayed Stilicho to the lies of the imperial court, the west would've survived much longer - yea Honorius was beyond useless but Stilicho truly cared for him and his future depended on him and his daughter having a son and heir so if Honorius trusted anyone it should have always been Stilicho - the man his father trusted.

[@ChrisZukowski88]

Theres only so much shit one man can scrub off the floors. Rome had become a circus at that point and wasnt worth saving.

[@adamgorz9679]

The first 2 mins really resonated with me I've always considered 395 to be the official start of the Byzantine Empire. I know some like to place it 330 under Constantine. But after 395 the two halves were permanently divided and often acted in their own self interest even at each other's expense.

[@matthewturner2803]

Me too, I consider Arcadius the first Byzantine Emperor.

[@alejandromadrid8075]

The term Byzantine Empire was invented during the enlightenment era as part of their anti-Jesus agenda. Rome was a Tribal Confederate, Kingdom, Republic, then a Republic in name only, then an open Empire, then a theocratic Empire with a worshipful God Emperor...then it survived by becoming a stable Christian kingdom for another ONE THOUSAND YEARS, ...not an insignificant amount of time, during which time they continue to improve over their technology or know how, in architecture and warfare and governance.

[@elagabalusrex390]

I personally put the date in 476 because from that year onward there was only an emperor in Constantinople (Zeno) while, for the first time, there wasn't one at all in the West.

[@shakazulu301]

Started to listening to this today for the first time. Thank you Atilla Total War 💜

[@richardhoffman5769]

“Undermined Stilicho to death” that’s gold

[@jackbalitok3910]

When Honorius and Theodosius issued one of their final edicts regarding pagans (CTh. XVI.10.22) in AD 423, they felt obliged to remark that "We now believe that there are none." The ancient temples and those who had worshipped there were no more.

[@pharaohsmagician8329]

A terrible thing happened to us, they took away our God's and Knowledge and forced us to only learn from a Scripture

[@staygoldponyboy8881]

It took me over 3 years to get this far! I'm not slow and loved this podcast( when I found it 7 years late ) but I kept zoning out during the mid 3rd century and simply kept starting again. and again. Finally saw it through over christmas and only have about 10 episodes to go, iv just past the 2nd sacking of Rome.

[@michealohaodha9351]

Likewise...Last Christmas really got me back on track

[@jbussa]

Why is this author killing off all his characters? oh wait...

[@daanyd13]

Lol "that's romanae" sorry thought of that Italian song about talking about love and pizza: that's amore?

[@michaelsmyth3935]

.....exactly......

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Taking another trip through, still funny.

[@bonifacejsjacobs6149]

After eight trips to Constantinople, I have walked the entire circuit of the Theodosian Walls - on them if I could, behind them, or in front of them if I couldn't. Dead ends, filth, impassability, falls and even teens shooting pistols did not stop me. I also walked on top of the Aqueduct of Aurelian four times without getting arrested.

[@rx0102]

🧎🏼‍♂️

[@bcvetkov8534]

Honestly, I'm sad everything went to shit. But, it's like common sense that you should probably work with pretenders from England to defeat the barbarians. Alaric is a political genius. Even though the sack of Rome is literally the physical representation of crippling depression.

[@LTrotsky21stCentury]

Crippling depression? What? It's the historical representation of a ruling class which in the pursuit of enriching itself trashed the basis of their social system. And good riddance to any such classes.

[@hailalexander93]

I think this just proves how once in a millennium type figures like Julius Caesar and Octavian Augustus are so rare. Oh how they could've used their resurrected spirits at this most deadly crisis. However with the abandonment of the old gods and the principes I think they are likely turning in their graves and wouldn't even recognize the empire they started.

[@histguy101]

I'm not sure someone like Augustus or Caesar could cope with the challenges of the 5th century. Caesar could go out into disorganized barbarian territory and burn some villages unti he got a reaction, then destroy the resistance. The barbarians of the 5th century were organized, smart, well equipped, and much tougher foes than those centuries earlier. And there were military disasters in Augustus' days, but the borders were much more secure, and didn't face the incomprehensible onslaught of foreign migratory armies trying to get in.

[@alal039]

Christus Regnet Julius Caesar not only fought unorganized barbarians, he fought organized armies in Spain, Greece and North Africa, and his victory over a great general such as Pompey is proof of his military genius, I believe that Caesar in any era would do a good job

[@LoneKharnivore]

"Once in a millennium figures like Julius Caesar and Octavian Augustus" ...who both lived at the same time, therefore not being "once in a millennium." I note also that Charlemagne probably falls into that category and he also lived within a millennium of JC and Augustus.

[@hailalexander93]

@@histguy101 your summarization of Caesar's campaigns against the Gauls and Germans and Augustus's handling of the border territories is erroneous to say the least. But I already said they couldn't do much in this time as themselves because the empire changed so much.

[@hailalexander93]

@@alal039 Caesar was definitely a military and political genius. Tactics, Strategy, Propaganda, Logistics, you name it he perfected it. As Michael Duncan says earlier in the series; "he out-politiced the greatest Roman politician (Cicero) and out generaled the greatest Roman general (Pompey)."

[@thehistorybard6333]

Honestly after that horrifying and unprovoked genocide of the Gothic women and children, Alaric's Sack of Rome seems kinda justified. Honorius's court really acted unbelievably stupidly towards Alaric and the Goths

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Always remember, Rome deserved every terrible thing that happened to them. They committed genocide on a regular basis. Their crimes dwarf Stalin, Hitler and Mao combined.

[@ninjadolphin01]

The inability of the old Roman aristocracy to accept Germanic peoples as they had everybody else I think it's the bank cause for the fall of the West.

[@hazeshi6779]

Eh, maybe but I still think the atrocities of ww2 are slightly worse.

[@chrisbond6791]

Stilicho. What a cutup!

[@Kijnn]

2:05:00 The first Brexit that went horribly wrong...

[@johnforbes8282]

Brexit is actually a win/win for britain & the European union, Britain was always half in half out of the european project due to having one foot in Europe and one foot in America, we straggle the north american/european worlds and so don't fully belong in either. With Britsin out of the EU the policy making of the institution becomes much easy now that the remaining 27 states are united under German/Franco rule.

[@hazeshi6779]

If the UK is not in Europe wouldn't that slightly isolotate Britain from potential close allies, what if an anvader pushes all the way to France? I suppose the UK could sit it out this time?

[@katraconnor8451]

Its a great podcast, i listen to it at work and learn on the side about the roman history. Your doing great! would love to go all the way to 1453 :D

[@-timaeus-9781]

Thanks :) I would have liked for it to go to 1453 as well, but Mike cut his series off at 476.

[@bcvetkov8534]

@@-timaeus-9781 it would be so dope if he did that!!

[@mitchellalexander9162]

Well...Some guy did a Byzantine Empire Podcast.

[@mitchellalexander9162]

@E Fig Durrrr Perhaps it was this thing? thehistoryofbyzantium.com/

[@LTrotsky21stCentury]

For Byzantine history, check out Thersites the Historian - kzbin.info

[@paulrosa6173]

Would it be accurate to say that by this time in Italy and the city, Rome is really falling apart? That the baths of Caracalla, (the reason I started listening to Mr. Duncan's series for a better take on why and when the ruins became so) , is still receiving water but that it may be difficult for them to provide hot baths? The emperor's aren't there to sponsor the big public works projects or fund their continued operation, so I suppose so? Archeological sites I've found online don't seem to say a lot about when places were abandoned, usually only when they date from. They always find a range of datable coins and other objects and date from the earliest, I think? It also sounds like political accountability isn't as good as even under the so called bad emperors. The senate doesn't seem to have any voice at all at this time and government is opaque, hyper-tyrannical, very dogmatic - Taliban like even, almost like an autonomic reflex and nearly something one could call psychotic? The emperors definitely can't think too well and seem to kill off the very people who can help them. Stilicho, Aetius, Bonaface, and Bellesarius. All successful generals and all ruined by their own emperors. I recall that from the short history of Italy I read years ago by a British writer. I recall that the Taliban came to power in Afghanistan because the better standard of living and healthier political climate was shot to hell by over twenty years of chronic warfare, first with the USSR and then with the USA. It may not be the best analogy but is it close? The Taliban and Christian influence on the Roman political life are very similar it seems to me. The Roman government could be manipulated by people who had their own sectarian interests and tend to be very corrupt. The people are very much beaten down by the shear difficulty of staying alive. They all seem to be very grab it while they can sorts. If it isn't the Goths and barbarians it's those who still swarm around the centers of power. So much money - species- is being lost that economic activity must be almost dead. or just barely able to function. and slavery may have never been as cruel. They aren't yet building castles but rural estates must be either in bad shape and barely able to function or are abandoned. Or is the 4th century too early for that kind of decay? The major roads may still be there but maybe aren't being repaired? It sounds like the army would be too preoccupied to have much time or money to repair them and certainly they can't extend them. The roads are very well built - up to 5 feet deep of concrete and stone, so they lasted so long but the surface could very well have been a mess. There is no mention in the spotty histories of any major public works projects by this time. or so it sounds. They apparently had a concrete surface coat that when fresh would have made them very smooth. But by the 4th century it may have been gone and you'd see the surface like they are now. rounded and cobble like but the stones aren't as small as cobbles and it would have made it harder to walk, march or roll carts on them. They could have been very hard on cart axles and wheels. Years ago I watched a movie called Pope Joan that suggested a woman may have occupied the papacy in about the 7th or 8th century. It isn't considered a quite accurate history but not impossible. The city of Rome was shown as almost intact. Roofs still in place and many major landmarks are still identifiable. I thought it was great CGI. Gibbon stated that until the Papacy returned to Rome from Avignon and until the Barogue era, when Popes started the major redesign of the City we see today under Sixtus V, that most of the major buildings of the forum were still intact. After listening to this series I'm finding that hard to believe. There was at least one major earthquake in the 800s, so the forum may have been scavenged sooner than that? If temples were being occupied as homes and places of business by the 4th century, maybe the theaters were being used as residences too? I've read that the Coliseum was divided into fortified strongholds by what passed as aristocratic families during the dark ages. Or were the Romans still able to put on shows of the comedies and the classic Greek plays in theaters like the Odeon, Marcellus and Pompeii? I know the Pantheon still has it's roof plates and the ceiling of the portico until Bernini needed the bronze for the baldachino over the High Altar of St. Peters. I don't find that such an act of sacrilege because the plates were probably pretty well corroded anyway and historic preservation wasn't really a major concern of the old timers. They were probably sick of the sight of ruins. On the Kanopy series about ancient technology and the Baths of Caracalla, it was noted that a the city of Rome was receiving about 250 million gallons of water a day and the aqueducts are still intact so far , But if the drains and sewers were falling into disrepair. All sorts of flooding may have been occurring everywhere? How could they turn them off? .Malaria is always a problem in this part of Italy so even the city itself could have become pestilential and the dilapidated domus next door may have become a swamp? This series is enough to slap my inner ditz silly. It's so very sad when one thinks the city had places as evocative as Maxfield parish prints or the paintings of Alma Tadema.

[@savagesavant4964]

Alaric was absolutely a ransacking barbarian.

[@juanferrero2009]

Omg so near the end. So saaaad. I already watched Donald Kagan's Yale class on Ancient Greek History, now this... I think Im going to go for midieval European history now. Thank you to Matttttt!

[@Alamyst2011]

The creator, Mike Duncan is currently doing a Revolutionary podcast. As good as this. Better produced even.

[@TK-js7yz]

Eudoxia was reported to be an extraordinary beauty!

[@feral7523]

What I find interesting is the lack of Legions from Spain, from Britain, from N Africa? did they just sit around and let everything fall to shit? as back in the day you'd have Caeser, Pompey or Augustus dashing around gathering up Legions to plug a hole here reinforce there but now it's all just under strength Legions made up of Tribals augmented with more Tribals?

[@trajansmethod2050]

"empires rise in hobnail boots and decline in silk slippers" as the roman said. read carol quigley,,,tragedy and hope on how the inner core of an empire becomes soft. in the early days the empire was more focused. in the latter days there was rarely even a roman or even italian emperor. nations and empires never survive diversity, thus the current push for globalism. "empires are not murdered, they commit suicide" arnold toynbee

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Roman Citizens who would normally be those Soldiers, they were working on Senatorial Estates. Provincials began to fill out the ranks before Constantine abandoned Britannia. Look back to the Tetrarchy, once the foundations of Serfdom and the lock down of mobility that can with it....

[@deangatlin6745]

33:36 this is one of the funniest things I’ve ever heard.

[@supermariosunshine64]

And the last badass of the history of Rome dies on this chapter, Stilicho.

[@TonyFontaine1988]

You forgot Aetius and majorian

[@noodlecoffee193]

Sad Aetius and Majorian noises

[@hazeshi6779]

What about the greatest badass of Constantinople?

[@michaelr3583]

once again, if you love this series. Thersities the Historian has a podcast on the byzantine emperors on youtube

[@1828tolstoy]

This is great thank you for sharing.Sad that there are millions of views.We live in ignorant dark times.

[@pharaohsmagician8329]

Alright alright take it easy Cicero

[@LoneKharnivore]

Books are still a thing, dude.

[@simonkalajdjiev9901]

Thank you!

[@forgetfulfunctor1]

36:12 The enemy of my enemy is....¿still my enemy?

[@bigbluebuttonman1137]

NGL, when Duncan goes through the events leading up to the sack of Rome, I can't help but feel that as a whole, Rome kind of deserved it. They actually had an significant amount of barbarian tribes who were willing at least to leave Rome alone, and instead of placating that...decided to be unnecessarily murderous. Olympius' murderousness and Lupicinus' craven exploitation both make the ensuing Gothic responses actually pretty reasonable. A whole lot of people mention the failure to integrate the tribes, as if Rome had just given up trying to deal with them, and while yeah, there was a failure to follow the standard procedure, there was also this ridiculous and murderous behavior towards them for no good reason, at precisely the worst times.

[@perlefisker]

1:00:10 Not to every foot soldier ordered by a megalomaniac general?

[@savagesavant4964]

Stilicho was a barbarian who was obviously working to undermine Imperial authority & help his barbarian supporters to power. This is the real reason why Rome was sacked after his death.

[@michaelhealy481]

This history of Rome is great. When does number 34 come out?

[@-timaeus-9781]

Soon! Glad you like them :)

[@riftbandit223]

Cant tell if this is a Rule 34 joke or just a fact that this series is awesome - but either I agree I fucking love this series.

[@deathsheadknight2137]

@@riftbandit223 get your mind out of the gutter

[@cristianmare1555]

The gothic soldiers from the left side look like the dacians from Trajans column with barbs, the same haircut, the same wearings even if between this battle and Trajans battles were 200 years past

[@alejandromadrid8075]

Anglos be like: we wuz romans and shiet

[@michaelsmyth3935]

....and?

[@ninjadolphin01]

English people are almost totally genetically derived from the native britons who were in fact Roman citizens.

[@alejandromadrid8075]

@@ninjadolphin01 english people are not latin people. Everyone knows that. And everyone knows that they descend from the Germanic tribes. Everyone knows that. Hence why English is a Germanic language. Everyone knows that. The Romans did not look like the English. The English destroyed the last Roman colonies, when they took over the place. Etc...its history 101

[@ninjadolphin01]

@@alejandromadrid8075 your understanding of history is stuck in Victorian times. all modern scholarship and genetic studies decisively proves that genetically the English are mostly the same people who have always been there, with genetic contributions from waves of conquerors. The Anglo-Saxons did not "destroy" the Romans, they conquered them and the English now speak a Germanic language for the same reason they once spoke latin, they were conquered by a Germanic-speaking people. Also yes, plenty of Romans would have looked English, because there were millions of native Briton Roman citizens.

[@alejandromadrid8075]

@@ninjadolphin01 With all due respect, the native people of brittain were not Roman. The colonies the Romans established in Brittain were very small and very few. The majority of the british isle and the british people were not Romanized. I think you must intuit what is at play here, which is the falsification of history and identity politics. Every one can see that most of the British people resemble Nordics or Celtic people, in height and in appearance. There is nothing wrong with being that good looking, but they dont look like Romans.

[@paulrosa6173]

The hatred of Stilicho is not irrational. The argument those with any power of influence have is, they are being held up for repeated ransoms. They are actually paying protection money to bigger mafiosi than they were. Mr. Duncan isn't being consistent but it's hard to be. The Roman's had a stable culture while the new mafias don't. And the new mafiosi learned it all from the old one. It's dog eat dog in some ways. And you can't get cute about it either. The new mafia isn't literate and anything we know about the barbarians is because of the romans. It isn't "history is written by the victors", It's history is written by those who can write at all. and actually keep the records for the future. But I'm getting confused by this story too but we can watch and don't really have to take sides. It's like the west is having a nervous breakdown.

[@michaelsmyth3935]

....recurring theme... What's in the box...

[@tropics8407]

Man 🤦‍♂️ where are all those Italian Roman troops 🤷‍♂️

[@hazeshi6779]

Long since dead, and these Italian romans are soft and don't join the military

[@tropics8407]

Great series eh ? 👍

[@hazeshi6779]

@tropics8407 Definitely! The narration is really good 👍

[@paulrosa6173]

The genocide of the Gothic families is something like what this country (and many other's that aren't currently fashionable to talk about) did to the surviving indigenous plains peoples. But the Europeans had disease resistance on it's side or this country's earliest colonies would never have taken root. Most of the indigenous people were severely reduced before the later colonists actually indulged in outright genocide. What was it, 90% gone between Roanoke and Plymouth? All those barbarian peoples must have developed resistance to the various plaques that affected the Roman population. They were always interacting in one way or another. So that just left outright genocide, like a very murderous turf war where both sides are desperate. I'm not trying to apologize for past abuses and it's ridiculous to get too self righteous about any of this. It's the ugly, nearly automatic process of how genes managed to survive other genes.

[@theskycavedin]

No, they are different situations. That's not exactly what happened. There was genocide, but the attack on the goths is not applicable to that situation. You're seeing connections that aren't there.

[@hudsonmarvel5688]

😊😊

[@KathrynsWorldWildfireTracking]

1:01:22 oh the irony...

[@savagesavant4964]

Alaric & the Goths were true criminals & villians ...they won the war & were able to rewrite history to make themselves look like victims instead.

[@savagesavant4964]

Olympius did nothing wrong .....

[@fedorgalkin5018]

I actually stopped caring after Theodocius died. After that it is all goths walking around the fracturing empire.

[@philipcallicoat9947]

Ain't history redundant??? People come and go... The Lord never will...

[@jamiecullum5567]

which lord?

[@johnforbes8282]

your wrong nothing lasts forever not even the earth

[@LoneKharnivore]

Jesus literally came and went.

[@henrygoodbar9477]

He must not have been the lord

[@Catonius]

..will never come.

[@Drevo103179]

Sounds like the fate of the US unless we get it together

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Been hearing that since Nixon normalized China, so, maybe. We certainly have a legislature that pretends to have two parties. Much more akin to the Roman Senate.

[@hazeshi6779]

A Republic... if you can keep it!

[@Catonius]

This guy's ability to butcher proper nouns is quite remarkable. Pronouncing Milan M'larn is particularly annoying. Can't imagine the mess he'd make of Mediolanum.

[@michaelsmyth3935]

....nice to know who you are.

[@Catonius]

@@michaelsmyth3935 hello my American friend. You like rock and roll dancing?

[@HailSchmitler-wz1wk]

This guy keeps talking about anarchy as if it’s the worst thing ever. Apparently he hasn’t caught the irony that the hundred of decapitations he just got done describing were all done under the name of government. Maybe history a little less and political philosophy a little more.