Romance in YA - A Discussion

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Hey guys, to download Amino and participate in my contest, click here: aminoapps.onelink.me/4eRt/JordanHarvey

[@TheGokusons]

Ya books in third person are as good as first person?

[@withcindy]

honestly, the best kind of romance for me is when it remains a subplot to a story and doesn't overtake the whole narrative. because that's how real life is (or at least how it should be): romance is an optional part of your life, just ONE part of your life, but there should be a bigger adventure and story out there.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

readwithcindy I agree, but obviously romance novels are different!

[@mariaslm8]

readwithcindy I completely agree! I like romance as just a subplot too!

[@ThePsychoNyx]

I seriously agree with you though I am a romantic, if the story is an excuse for romance then it's just dull

[@aaddss9846]

@@ThePsychoNyx how can a story be an excuse for romance O.o? it just means is a romance story with an action/adventure subplot...

[@kellycowley3535]

​@@aaddss9846 I think they mean when the whole story is just meant to push the characters together (like they will create a war so they can both fight together but wont put in any though towards the war (like no other friends dying, no reason for war, no homesickness, only plot is them getting separated and worrying about each other.)

[@howdyhowdyhelga]

The Romance trope that I absolutely hate the most is the ones that push the "I Can Fix Him" narrative. The ones where the male lead is a toxic a-hole and mistreats the female lead but it's because he has a traumatic past and apparently she's 'fixing him'. I think this is actually very dangerous. Young teens and young adults don't understand how unhealthy this is. Not only does this encourage them to stay in abusive/unhealthy relationships because the other person apparently 'can't survive without you' but it also enforces the stigma around getting help for mental illness. It's already difficult for young people to admit they need help and telling them that they're absolutely screwed without true love is terrible. On a serious note, ladies and gentleman: *It is not and never will be your responsibility to fix/change your romantic partner.* The understanding and support from a loved one is very helpful, but some people need real help.

[@steph2994]

Bear A say it louder for all the writers in the back! 📢

[@authoralysmarchand4737]

This is why I hate Twilight and Fifty Shades so much! I don't care what the reason is for someone being controlling and abusive. It shouldn't be portrayed as this wonderful, ideal thing. When young readers hear that *everyone* loves a book, say, Fifty Shade, then those readers are learning that the relationship in it is good when, in real life, Ana could have been killed since Christian only barely controlled his temper and openly liked to beat women who look like his mother because he hates her. And he didn't need therapy to get over it. He just needed magical vagina!

[@marielavallee3848]

Sarah A Yessss, whenever this is the case I just want to yell at the characters that: THEIR PSYCHOLOGIST/PSYCHIATRIST IS THE ONE TO “FIX” THEM NOT YOU

[@marielavallee3848]

Especially if it’s like in 50 shades or twilight cause it’s not like the male characters can’t afford therapy

[@wanderingbookwyrm2671]

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! This trope is terrible for mental health all around. It's not uncommon for a teenager to feel like all their problems will be fixed if they find the right romantic partner, instead of going to a parent or counselor about their struggles. It's also damaging that it portrays "true love" as this all-powerful healing magic that will cure all ills, instead of the rewarding hard work that it is.

[@hehehawhawhehe]

More than I hate a particular trope I hate when authors actively justify certain kinds of behavior in relationships. Cheating? Oh the cheater is desperate for love. Abuse? Oh the abuser has deep seated emotional trauma. Obsession? Oh their love is so strong they can’t help it. And to hit the nail on the head those traits are meant to make the romance even more tantalizing and desirable. Thanks, but no thanks.

[@lukasnovella9001]

Cana O'Brien why I don’t write romance

[@tessavery2151]

I overall dislike romance in YA, because I feel like it's not genuine. Mostly because I feel like every YA live interest is the jerk with a sad backstory. I feel like authors are getting better at writing unique YA romance though...

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I'm glad you feel that it's getting better!

[@wanderingbookwyrm2671]

I get what you mean. I don't like how formulaic YA romance tends to be.

[@Evan_L_Rodriguez]

In my experience (so I don't know if there's an actual statistic), people who grew up in bad environments, were impoverished or had abusive parents (AKA "A Tragic Backstory"), more often than not, turn out to be good people. They understand what it's like to go through hardship, so they don't want to spread that to others, and not perpetuate it. Maybe it's because we're dealing with teenagers and we're talking about YA, but my friends and I are teenagers, they've been through some shit, and they are some of the kindest people I know! I would just like to see a character with a tragic background who's actually nice because of that, because they don't want to spread that hate and toxicity (which is why, I guess, I'm writing one of the characters in my book like that). (Not to say a character who has a tragic backstory can't be a jerk, it's just usually executed pretty poorly.)

[@Mariusweeddeath]

The "I can be better" Trope. It's a hard trope to pull of mostly because of the how good the character with the tragic/bad backstory turns out to be. If the character is too good and doesnt show any signs of their past trauma, they are unrealistic. If someone who has lived in a house of angry and abusive people, there has to be a struggle for them to not fall into those actions or the character would feel real. We all have trouble dealing pir past and a character that completely ignores it doesnt feel right. On the opposite side of this; if the character doesnt seem to exhibit any good when the writer is telling you that they are then or feels more like a character disconnect rather than actual character that was executed well. This character foesnt strike someone and the author begins to go into a small paragraph of how this action 9s representative of something incredibly difficult for them. At that point it feels like the author is selling you something you dont want. It's hard trope to really pull off since the balance of being good but being shackled by a past is hard to do right. To little 'good' and the character isnt as good as the author says they are. To much 'good' and they come off more as a paragon without the right backstory for one.

[@brettbosley779]

It's not really being ninja'd after 10 months, but...ninja'd!

[@ellie7646]

I'm sure there's a mix of both outcomes. The "cycle of abuse" where broken children grow up to abuse their own children is definitely a thing.

[@edenmckinley3472]

@@ellie7646 Totally. My grandmother was abused as a child, and when my family was staying in her house and there was a possibility of one of my extended relatives abusing my little sister, her response was "oh, she can suck it up. It didn't hurt me any. Besides, I can't tell him to go away; he's family." Although I also know a lot of people who were abused and came out of it as incredible, incredible people. It's all in how the person chooses to respond.

[@andreahartman9656]

If there's one thing that drives me up the WALL, it's authors describing their male love interests as "sexy" in interviews. Sexy isn't a personality trait, and doesn't tell us ANYTHING about the character, but instead gives us a vague idea about what the author themselves finds attractive. "Sexy" is about as specific as "nice," and different people have different definitions of the thing. To me, any time an author immediately describes the male L.I. as sexy instead of clever, a bit stand-offish, shy, etc, it tells me that they don't see the character as a person and likely didn't write them well. Edit: Lmao this was supposed to relate to your point on physical attraction being a pretty thin link between characters, and I agree with your point. I'd be interested to see stories where characters who are physically attracted to one another end up being a nightmare couple -- and instead of everything work out because of ~ physical chemistry, ~ the characters either learn that they're toxic together or the story ends as a tragedy.

[@elias0282]

I agree! Authors should describe them as: A hormone container with 6 -8 packs and big dicks.

[@keepuwu-ing7653]

This!! I feel the exact same, I hate when the author describes what I'm supposed to be feeling. It makes me feel really disconnected from the world and the characters. I like it when they write the thoughts of the character, that way I can actually guess what they're feeling without having them spoonfed to me.

[@junjunjamore7735]

To this day, my favorite romance of any fiction is Percabeth.

[@mariananarciso7445]

Child Of The Smokeless Fire same!!! percy and annabeth's relationship was done sooo well!!! i love them so much T-T

[@eidechsebernstein954]

Really? I thought it felt SO forced. I LOVE them as best friends, though.

[@stingingcake853]

agreed, and even in heroes of olympus, where they were in an established relationship they were still like one of the best parts

[@imbored-4052]

I agree it's one of my favourites.

[@thebeansaregone]

@@eidechsebernstein954 I respectfully disagree. Despite Percy and Annabeth being the main characters and getting together, this does not mean that it is forced. It would be forced for them to get together in the middle of the series with little to no chemistry. But that is not the case. Percy and Annabeth took 4 and a half years to develop as friends to finally become a couple. Then they had another year to bond as a couple, working together as a team even more so compared to pre relationship status. In all, they are definitely the least forced relationship in the series, because they are a slowburn with a lot of chemistry before and after relationship establishment.

[@tatiannachandler4196]

Yes to all of this! I can't even tell you how much I hated the fact that cheating has been put as a positive thing for some novels. It's always baffled me how a -homewrecker- protagonist can think that they're in the right by cutting into someone else's relationship and ruining something that was perfectly fine. Never really understood why they'd be so sure the love interest wouldn't do the same thing to them, either.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Tatianna chandler exactly!!

[@wonderlust1308]

+Black Orchid, like they try to justify their actions, their *choices* by saying the other person is mean.

[@zeldao1692]

Do you know what I miss? Children's and middle grade books where the team friendship and adventure were as prominent as the romance. One thing I can't STAND is when two members of a team (often a 5 man band) are completely enraptured with each other and care about no one else.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I know! I hate that too.

[@JeanetHenning]

Totally agree, it was so much purer and more realistic in those kinds of books than the YA books that are actually supposed to be more "realistic"!

[@jewelsims8805]

Like the original Percy Jackson books aaah

[@JeanetHenning]

amen!

[@zeldao1692]

Wow, thanks for responding Jordan, I love this chanel and how clear and well thought out your videos always are! To everyone else who replied, it's good to know I'm not alone in this thought process lol. Jeez, if 2 characters "love" each other to the point that they have no time or interest at all for their so called "friends", then why are they even with them?

[@crystaldanielle5203]

Working on getting a channel, but this vid will be old by the time I get it started. So here’s the summary of my thoughts. Romance in any YA genre that features insta love is beyond my enjoyment at 25. Just as you said with the romances of abuse to love, it seems to be targeted at people who haven’t had experiences with romance. Though, to me, the relationships either don’t make any sense or they seem lust filled. Blame the hormones I guess 🤷🏻‍♀️ Now objectification is a touchy subject for some, but this is my take. People filter their minds all day long. There are plenty of thoughts that never form words or actions. If I see someone I think looks attractive, I’m going to look. I’ll have a thought that I won’t say. Then I move about my day. Notice a few things here. 1) I don’t harass the person 2) I don’t obsess over the person 3) I don’t stalk the person As long as authors have their characters act their part, then I don’t see a problem with it. If you want your MC to be a creepy stalker that watches your other MC sleep then don’t romanticize it. But if your MC is walking the street and sees their crush half naked. I expect some kind of description male or female or non binary

[@rosewilliams-cox7609]

"If everyone is getting a slice of human body meat, it's fine" - Jordan Harvey 2018 😂❤

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Rose Williams-Cox oh goodness

[@futurestoryteller]

I finally understand Slytherin

[@eidechsebernstein954]

And then they proceeded to become cannibals.

[@Mumblejumby]

Most romantic relationship in ya books that isn't abusive are usually just snarky smartalec thinking their hot stuff while having a snark to snark combat.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Jim's numba 1 fan Haha there is A LOT of that

[@WatchThatDene]

I dislike it when books or movies romanticse game-playing, and imply that "true love" must be earned through immense physical, emotional and mental endurance. Call me crazy, but don't you kind of have to like someone before you fall in love with them? So many of the "big ships" in the YA world are built on pretty unhealthy behaviour. The first common scenario I hate is the plucky, wide-eyed hero who swoons over the insanely attractive, aloof anti-hero. Said anti-hero spends 3/4 of the story gaslighting the main character into thinking they're ugly/worthless, before indignantly insisting that they've ALWAYS loved our hero and are now conveniently ready to die to save them at the eleventh hour. Next is the two equally cynical and "shrewd" characters who constantly try to out-sass each other until they finally give in and declare their love for each other. Both of these examples seem more like "insta-lust" than "insta-love" and lots of YA authors conflate the two horribly.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Seriously! There is a huge difference between lust and love, yet somehow that doesn't come across in a lot of YA

[@WatchThatDene]

It can be so frustrating when it puts a dampener on an otherwise promising novel 😤

[@authoralysmarchand4737]

I think a lot of characters are more in love with the idea of ownership rather than having love for that person as a person. Christian Grey didn't love Ana. He wanted to literally own her.

[@peachplum]

Great video! I usually treat YA romance like candy, where it's okay in moderation but too much of it makes me sick. My least favorite trope, is an offset of instalove. Where two characters are in love with each other, but really for no reason at all. There's no build up, no tension, no chemistry. This trope really suffers with books in 1st person pov. With the main character being the narrator, when they've given no reason or example for why they're in love. It kind of comes out of no where. I just feel like slow burn is an underrated trope, it's much more satisfying in the end. When you see characters develop into a romantic relationship, slowing building on their feelings.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Flair Cine Exactly!! I completely agree.

[@rosedalinevaletine6931]

Flair Cine See, I don't understand this whole you need a 'reason' to fall in love with someone. I--this may JUST be me--fall in love with people over nothing. No joke. I liked a guy for TWO whole years and a few months, and we've never had a conversation. Yes, it was not real, deep, all that good stuff, love, but from my point of view it was a position where I was open to getting to know him and truly bond with him. People don't need a reason for falling in love. Finding someone attractive is all some people need and that's okay.

[@starlitbri]

I forgot about Slow Burn! I love that one especially when you get Mutal Pining mixed in

[@peachplum]

rosedaline valetine Yeah, I understand what you're saying. You don't necessarily need a "reason" to love someone or be attracted to them. It just feels like a lot of times in YA romance, the relationships are inorganic. At least it feels that way to me. This is more so an issue when, the books main plot is romance not necessarily sub plot romance. I feel like if your story is about two people falling in love, there should be something more compelling at play than instalove.

[@BooksStuffbooks]

Withholding information from your partner for no reason? Did you mean insurgent?

[@JordanHarveybooks]

hahah

[@NaishaS]

More like Empire of Storms or Queen of Shadows

[@sebastienlee7037]

@Matt of Storm Stories the hunger games

[@hyasynthetic7945]

The way that love triangles in YA play out is one of the most frustrating things for me. It's not because they're overdone (even though they are), but because love triangles can be interesting when done right. I remember reading a manga a while ago that had a true love triangle (character A likes character B who likes character C who likes character A). It created a super engaging dynamic between the three characters, and it was impossible to figure out who would end up together, if any of them, and how their platonic relationship would be affected once the love triangle was resolved. On the topic of 'queerbaiting'. I feel like I should preface this by saying I'm a bisexual man currently working on a novel with a gay lead, so I am somewhat qualified to talk about it. Maybe because I'm not much of a shipper, nor do I care much for representation, but I often feel like the people who complain about queerbaiting are just people upset that their gay ship didn't happen. And, honestly, I find it more insulting than anything. A lot of the reasons that people cite for being queerbaiting are just... people being friends. I hug my guy friends because it's a common greeting, but that doesn't automatically mean I want to date them. It's absurd to me that people take platonic shows of affection, spin them into something romantic in their heads, and then complain when it doesn't happen. I'm not saying that this is always the case, but a lot of the time, it is.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Do you remember what the manga is called?And I think you should check out the video I linked on queer baiting. I would be interested in your thoughts on that.

[@hyasynthetic7945]

I'm afraid I don't. I read it over a year ago and haven't been able to find it since. As for SarahZ's video, I certainly see what she is saying. I do believe queerbaiting exists, and I imagine it would be frustrating for people who do care about that kind of thing. The Riverdale example she used was a particularly malicious -- and thus fairly undeniable -- example of queerbaiting. I agree with her that if the intent of the creator is to bait the LGBT community as a marketing ploy, then it is explicitly queerbaiting and it is absolutely a scummy technique. However, it comes down to intent, and the intent of a creator is not always clear, especially when it comes to something as vague and up-for-interpretation as subtext. Queerbaiting is one of those things that I think happens less often than a lot of people claim it does. I stand by my belief that a lot of the instances where people cry 'queerbaiting' are just upset that their ship didn't pan out. As consumers, I don't think we have enough inside knowledge to truly claim whether something is queerbaiting or not (unless it's explicit, such as in Riverdale) since we simply don't know the intent of the creator.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I agree that sometimes it is people just upset that their ship didn't pan out, but I do also think that it is a legitimate thing that needs to be considered.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I agree that it's not at all black and white and that it's sometimes hard to identify whether or not it's real because we don't often know the intent of the creators.

[@fionatastic0.070]

While I agree that people should be allowed to be friends I think the frustration comes from the fact that every heterosexual ship becomes canon (even if they start out as friendships) while a lot of LGBT relationships don’t. Basically anytime it is hinted that a character might not be straight it goes nowhere while boy locks eyes with girl for five seconds means it is 95% likely they will get romantic. The lack of representation is the driving force I think. I would watch Rowan Ellis’s video on the topic if you’re interested.

[@leedorashinee]

Loved the points you made Jordan! And I agree with quite a lot. I wrote to you on Twitter when you tweeted out and I just reminded myself now that there is one thing I hate about romance in YA. It’s the thing where everyone in a group of friends get paired up. I don’t find it realistic at all. As someone who’s been the always single one and have a group where only one friend had a relationship, I just find it really annoying how they all get paired up. Often times i feel like romance is put above all friendships as well and as someone who is very picky with romance I’d love to see more books about friendships but romance always seem to overtake the story.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

It's true! I think a lot of middle grade books deal more with friendship, but the moment it gets to YA, that goes out the window.

[@leedorashinee]

It often makes me think how will it be to young readers now, who read MG books with friendships but as they grow up and start to read YA that thing is lost... When it should be just as important for a teen to have friends.

[@authoralysmarchand4737]

Never in my life have all of my friends been paired up at the same time. It's definitely not realistic.

[@mariaslm8]

Dorottya Piros ugh that us definitely really annoying! To me, it really feels forced. Like, the MC's got together, and their friends deserve no lesser romance!

[@biancam.5864]

As someone who has been in an emotionally abuse relationship (my abuser was male, btw), I really, really, really, reaLLY, REALLY hate the "tortured bad boy" who treats the protagonist like shit, but it's okay because he's hurting and mentally ill or whatever. That is not romantic. My abuser constantly played the, "I'm mentally ill" card with me and it is not an excuse. It's a disgusting thing to see as romantic and I really truly hate it.

[@thisisabcoates]

Seriously, why do the male and female leads always need to fall in love? It's almost as though writers don't think you can have a purely platonic relationship

[@lunemaline]

Romance lately in ya novels seems to fit a formula, either there's a love triangle or the guy is a jerk, psycho, serial killer-ish, or they can't be together because of miscommunication, social status, or other completely dumb reason. I have yet to read about a healthy relationship. There are so many different types of relationship in this day and age that I feel that authors aren't being creative. Monogamy isn't the only way you can go. Also, I would love to see a book about an already established relationship. A kick-ass couple against the world would be awesome. Romance shouldn't be just about the chase and then happily ever after, there's more to it. At least there should be. I just wish authors would get more creative, that's all. At this point it seems like I'm reading about the same relationship, just the names change. If you have some recommendations I would love to hear them.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

warrioreads I LOVE the relationship in Blood Red Road. I also love Goose Girl and Princess academy (even though they’re middle grade books). I also like the relationship in The Saviors Champion :)

[@lunemaline]

Thank You, I will definitely check those out. I really enjoy your discussions, very few people in the booktube community is doing something like this and it's very refreshing.

[@noja1155]

Personally, I love romance in books but only if it feels natural! Just shoving two characters together because there "has to be a romance" is really annoying because it's so obvious that the only reason those characters are together is because the author needed to pair them off somehow. I love the enemies to lovers trope so much, it's just so fun to read about two characters bickering and then eventually realising that they are actually perfect for each other *cough* Percy and Annabeth. I completely agree with the objectification argument, it's not okay if it's only one gender, which atm is men, but if it's equal then I don't mind it. I'll have to do a response video to this discussion because I've got so much more to say on this topic that I can't physically put in a comment, but I really loved this video - as always, you brought up some brilliant points!

[@haleyspence]

My favorite type of romance in any age group is full of strong drama: fights, passionate declarations of love. As long as there's a lot of time in the middle where they're just being nice and supportive of each other.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Haley Spence Interesting! I think that as long as it has balance it’s fine. I just hate when it’s all passion and fights all the time, because it’s like... why are you still together??

[@haleyspence]

Exactly! My favorite example of this is in the Outlander series by Diana Gabeldon (Though this is 100% NOT YA) where there's a lot on the line constantly--between the two characters, in the world around them. They get in a lot of hardcore fights, talk about how desperately in love with each other they are, but 70% of the time when they're together they're just talking and being normal.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Haley Spence I have some problems with that series, BUT I do like their relationship!!

[@haleyspence]

I'd be very interested in hearing your problems with it. I have a few myself, but I also keep in mind when they were written, when they were written about and how much they can get away with from having it *mostly* from Claire's POV. I also like to pretend that the series ended with Voyager, which is probably my favorite book ever. It wraps the series up really well, ends are more or less tied up, it's a beautiful and satisfying conclusion. I also *really* want to read the whole thing from Geillis Duncan's perspective, because that would be so much fun--especially in contrast to Claire's.

[@tahseenshopnil5908]

I totally agree with you about Anna and the French Kiss. Many authors this day likes to romanticize cheating.

[@tajadaleen6245]

Most of the time I just wonder what happened to the good ol' fantasy novels (the kind my Dad has what feels like a whole library of...), that were all about the adventure and friendship, with romance being ony a tiny subplot, if there is any at all. But maybe that's just me being old. Still love your videos though, they are awesome, and you seem to be quite lovely. +cough+didIreallyjustsaythat+cough+ And, on a side note, I found it strangely entertaining to watch your drink in the background change. xD

[@danidailey989]

Taja DaLeen Same. There have been so many times where I'm reading a story and as soon the romance starts getting introduced I start losing interest. Most people can't even write romance so it becomes a romance plot tumour.

[@tajadaleen6245]

@Katria: Yeah, that's why I added the 'But maybe that's just me being old'. x'D I just sometimes get the feeling that the ratio YA to adult fantasy is changing, especially looking at popular books and authors. (Which could also be a good thing, because it might mean that younger people read more? Hm.) And there are some YA fantasy novels that have awesome ideas when it comes to world building and stuff, but the fun's destroyed because... romance. Too much of it. Which, in my opinion, is just sad. (And sorry, if my English seems a bit weird, I'm not a native speaker.)

[@empressfreya9872]

I think my biggest issue with romance in YA is that so often the fandom is promoting it as goals and how every relationship should be like even in real life and if you read the book it ends up actually being creepy and super unhealthy because the characters are so obsessed with each other that everyone who even THINKS about talking to them would be murdered. The only romance in YA that I read that I really LIKED was Inej and Kaz because Kaz never undermined Inej and Inej never took shit from him. I hated the scene with Inej saying she only takes Kaz without his gloves though because it felt like she was ignoring his obvious PTSD. But other than that, there was so much chemistry between them and their love was wonderful. As much as I love happy endings with kisses, Kaz simply fulfilling Inej's dream with the boat so she could protect others was the most wonderful book ending in existence

[@samh3396]

No Love, yeS i agree!! kanej is amazing

[@eloisenewman3814]

It's extremely rare that I enjoy romance in YA. It just feels so one-dimensional a lot of the time. There's also hardly any diversity in the characters that are the love interest. They almost always have the same body type, just with different hair and eye colour. In real life, people are attracted to different things, and I don't see much of that in YA, especially in heterosexual pairings. Some guys like women that are slim with small boobs, some guys like women who are muscular, some like women who are considered in our society's terms as plus-size. Some women like guys that are short, like guys with "dad-bods" or like bald guys. Hell, even some guys like women who have short hair or are bald. But the archetype of the heterosexual-pairing almost always feels like: Tall and muscular white guy with an optional tan and mid-length hair falls in love with seemingly plain but secretly curvaceous yet still skinny long-haired white female who is almost always described as "awkward" but has a makeover scene later on where tall guy is shocked to see how incredibly conventionally attractive she is but that her awkwardness and shyness has just been hiding it the whole time. And now that she's conventionally attractive, he's suddenly interested. Ugh.

[@jamescreighton4912]

Insta-Romance is what it sounds like: a cheap, powdery suger mixture thats a quick fix for the "thirsty" reader. Personally, I would simply love to see changes implemented in YA fiction. Why is it that when the will they won't they ends in a great "they will!" It all goes downhill and suddenly they can only have overdramatic, nonsense problems with the partner? Real frustrating and the easiest way to derail a romance. YA writers, let's get our thinking caps on and let's explore some healthier and yet still wish fulfilling options! Oh, and fyi: YA love triangles are literally 99% of the time the worst.

[@steph2994]

Short version: I hate it ALL Long version: For me, I hate romance In YA because it is rarely done well. I never understand why they are together. Or its a romanticized abusive relationship or both. And don't even get me started on love triangles. I can't stand it anymore. It is EVERYWHERE. Overtaking everything. No matter the the genre , the crisis. All they care about is if Billy, or Becky, with unique eye color; likes them. It makes me automatically, decrease my rating for a book.There is no surprise. They always get together and always fall madly in love. Nothing new. I would love it if other kinds of love were bought to the forefront. Love for a parent, relative, friend, a passion, a pet, something. There are other loves just as important as romantic love.

[@alexwalker9698]

OMG I'm so happy you talked about Anne of Green Gables ! Anne and Gilbert are one of my first OTP ♥

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Alex Walker THEY’RE THE BEST! I love them so much 😊

[@noja1155]

Alex Walker I love them so much, they're adorable! Have you watched Anne with an E on Netflix? It has such a great representation of their relationship!

[@alexwalker9698]

It's such a good show ! #shirbert

[@noja1155]

Alex Walker YES

[@imbored-4052]

What does otp mean?

[@jaysailsthesea]

I tend to reach more for YA that includes gay characters, partly because I as a bisexual like to see myself represented but also because I feel like I’m drowning in the tropes that are more prevelant in heterosexual relationships as apposed to homosexual ones. Does that make sense? LGBTQ+ books just feel like such a breath of fresh air.

[@authoralysmarchand4737]

In the trilogy I wrote, I tried to present several types of relationships without making it any big deal that two of the men are together, that there are interracial couple, etc. It drives me bonkers that you can't seem to find anything like this without it being the central plot point.

[@jaysailsthesea]

I know, that problem really bugs me. It’s also a little unrealistic, too. People are just gay and that’s it. But I can see the need for stories about teens discovering their identities - kids need their struggles to be represented in media. Now I just wish gay relationships could be more normalised and just as much the default as straight ones, like how you’ve done in your books. I tried writing a fantasy story where two of the characters just happened to be in a lesbian relationship - it wasn’t very important to the story - but sadly I never got around to finish it. One book I can think of that’s like that is The Inexplicable Logic of My Life, which has a subplot where the main character’s dad gets back together with his ex boyfriend but it’s not the only subplot, just like being gay isn’t the MC’s dad’s only quality. One of the main character’s best friends is also gay, but his main focus in the story is on his family. It’s a good book in general, especially if you’re looking for something where the characters being gay isn’t integeral to the story.

[@zoharamitai8719]

In each and every one of the books I've written (and plan to write) theres a LGBTQ+ main character and the main ships are always mlm or wlw (mostly wlw because I'm a bisexual girl so..) I'm tired of straight white romances in YA so I've killed off most of my straight characters. Hoping one day my books are published so you can read them😉

[@DrEllert]

Ah romances. My Achilles heel. Something I said over a writing session: IMO if a writer truely wants his love between two characters to feel genuine, both the said characters AND the audience have to earn it. Otherwise it'll feel forced, out of place or just plain. Anne of Green Gables is a great example of that, also Odysseus to his wife in the Odyssey. I'd like to quote Anatomy of Story by John Truby: "The opponent is the character who most wants to keep the hero from achieving his desire. ... The opponent is simply the person on the other side. He can be a nicer person than the hero, more moral, or even the hero's lover or friend." (on opponents in charcter's chapter) It's sort-of like a process. You can't just have the hero (or any other character) in a relationship without showing some due process - even if the process happend previously. That's why I think when love-at-first-sight can be easily misused. Even though nothing happened previously before - that's just an illusion. In the reader's mind something should have happened.

[@SunriseFireberry]

How many authors (& moviemakers) feel a story without romance is not a story? Gotta drag it in, some way, somehow. Am I sick of it? Glaciated over. 13.8 billion light years away. The powers that be even dragged romance into a series of movies based on a middle grade book close to devoid of a female presence: The Hobbit.

[@adug3hd]

A 100% with you!

[@starlitbri]

I 100% agree with the objectionifciotn! Beyond the initial description, the only time I would want to know what the love interest looks like is the MC is seeing the LI 1. naked or nearly naked for the first time, or 2. in clothes they don't usually wear (ex: LI is dressed in formal clothes 99% percent of the time is in a tee shirt and jeans). I think Jenna Moreci said something about if the character's abs are described every six pages then it's lust or something; I can't remember her exact wording. I, personally, find that abusive/he's an ass but of Sad Backstory/etc. is more common in fantasy because it's easier to get away with? Because red flags of abuse, that fighting (like verbal/emotional abuse and hitting) aren't healthy or okay, and what not and they're easier to spot in contemporaries because they tend to be more romance heavy and there's no magic or rebellion to take away from the romance. Does that make sense? My favorite romance tropes are Friends to Lovers, Mutal Pining, and Well They, Won't They. When it comes to Will They, Won't They I prefer romances like Jake and Amy from Brooklyn 99 where they're friends who respect and care for each other as well as they date other people even when one of them is single oppose to Rachel and Ross from Friends. No offense Friends fans but Ross was a manipulative jackass who wasn't good enough for Rachel.

[@khaylakookie3011]

My favorite type of romance in YA is the romance that are so subtle and gentle. Like in Six of Crows with all of the couples. My favorite one was Nina and Matthias. It was just the simple acts of asking whether the other was okay and gentle brushes of hands or bickering and cute witty things. The act of never SAYING ‘I love you’ but rather showing it with actions

[@awkwardbooknerd8904]

Great discussion Jordan!!! some of my favourite romance tropes are hate to love and the forbidden love trope. I really like seeing people have to fight for their love and not just physically, but against cultural norms and parental expectations. My ultimate OTP was Anne and Gilbert and I'm glad you mentioned them since I think they are such a good example of a healthy relationship, and I love seeing them grow together. But I have no interest in picking up anna and the french kiss after all the horrible things I have heard about it and the cheating, I hate that in books along with The I can change him and make him better trope. ugh!! but I really enjoyed this video and can't wait for your next one!! :D

[@alexandriaceballos1938]

Your channel is a love letter on what things should be right with YA. I’m all for romance, but my top two tropes that I hate is the obsession, she can fix him, and being together all the goddamn time, along with the mental abuse and cheating that makes me want to troll the character for their behavior. The way I see it, a relationship need to be developed in a healthy. When I really think about it, it’s okay to date and get experience in the case of my character in the series I’m working on, at least they don’t let it run their lives.

[@agoaring]

I love reading about healthy relationships but because I do it to distract myself from how lonely I can be it helps a lot if the relationship is between two guys. But god d a m n good luck finding a healthy gay relationship in fiction. I just mostly read fanfiction or short stories by amateur authors because it's so easy to search and filter out what you're not looking for. That or just skim a story to see if it's worth reading and bail if it's not my thing. And I get to read it free of charge since I'm a broke college student.

[@Nix7123]

I'm so glad you mentioned Anne of Green Gables! It's one of my favourite series and it's rarely talked about on booktube.

[@TheWingknight101]

Jordan post new video. Time to get mind blown by amazing discussions

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Anthony Siano Haha thanks! This one is a bit of a ramble, but I think that’s because I don’t know how I feel about it.

[@sorcerersapprentice]

Congrats on the sponsorship, too!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Thanks :P Next time you see me, my throne will be plated in gold.

[@georgiaholmes7298]

I’m 13 and honestly I thank u cos it’s these types of videos on book tube that have stopped me from romanticising the “possessive bad boy” and have also helped me get out of my “I’m not like other girls phase”. Great vid

[@fatimashafiq3930]

A wonderful discussion! I like that you delved deeply into both the pros and cons of different types of romance depicted in this genre. For me, I think the biggest issue I have with romance in YA these days is that it is so self-centred. I mean, love should be the most selfless, beautiful, and gentle aspect of human interaction. And yet, relationships that are supposed to be happy and healthy in these stories revolve entirely around this urgent need for two people to be together at the cost of everything else. I would love to read a YA romance where the characters' goals are not hindered by their love for their partner but rather strengthened by it.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Fatima Shafiq That is SUCH a good point! Thank you!!

[@therealbookishathlete5010]

Honestly when I watched my first video of yours I wasn’t a fan, but now I’m addicted to how eloquently you view books. You look at each part of it and rip it apart which is helping me in writing because I know what to avoid because readers don’t like it. Love everything you do, keep going through the hate💛

[@RashmikaLikesBooks]

Whoa, Jordan! I've been watching your videos and loving them. I'm fatigued with YA for many of the reasons you mention (and partly just from getting older) and i generally don't watch YA BookTube because, well, i dont read what they read. But i just love the way you analyse books and talk about what speaks to you and what doesn't. No condescension, no attacks on the books/authors, just calm critique, and opinions backed up by tangible things in the novels. Your channel is wonderful. Congratulations on your hard work! It really comes across.

[@violetsden]

I love how you love these Chinese dramas I watch and love too, it feels nice to know a creator I like watches things I watch :3

[@bearhow4876]

I would love to chat about this in a KZbin video some day. Since I usually talk about and review cartoons (gargoyles, teen Titans etc,) I can talk about my favorite cartoon relationships. Anyways here’s something that I need from my romance books and that realistic dialogue. Kim Chance’s “keeper” is set in a high school with a romance that actually felt like a romance set in high school, which made it way more believable and thus more likable. Twilight was in high school and they made it seem so damn dramatic that it was unrealistic and completely takes out any believability. I barely registered any romance in Throne Of Glass so if you did, good for you hahaha.

[@sanamaziarz6584]

Wow ... that's a huge topic to write a comment on :D I really like that you pointed out positive as well as negative aspects of the romance aspect. There are way too many videos discussing the problematic aspects of relationships in the YA genre and I am thankful you didn't expand it as much as many others did. Though I avoid hyped books more since those issues actually got to me, especially since Shades of Grey was published. That opened the gate for anyone who wanted to write a romance novel, mostly portraying an abusive relationship without the author noticing. Seriously, E.L. James showed in an interview that she's completely oblivious to it and therefore many readers are, too. That's why especially the NA section is pretty much a forbidden zone in the bookstore for me (though there are a few seriously depicting great relationships, such as "The Coincidence of Callie & Kayden" by Jessica Sorensen). Though I have to make the exception that if the dysfunctionality is pointed out, I can really like the couple and want them together, not because I ship them, but because I'm curious when it will escalate. Best example: Harley Quinn & The Joker! So the romantization of abusive relationships, often connected to an attractive appearance of the abuser, is my biggest no-no when it comes to love stories. Other tropes I hate are love at first sight, simply because it doesn't exist and many authors shy away off saying that it's just sexual attraction at first sight, and the love triangle. Maybe it's just me since I just can't feel drawn to another person when I'm in love with my boyfriend, but to me it makes the characters really unlikeable, especially the girl or boy who just can't make up her or his mind. This is plain douchey behaviour. Which brings me to the "cheating is okay because she's mean" trope you mentioned. I would never say that cheating is always OK or something that should be done, it's absolutely not. But still, there are some relationships where one person cheats on another because there is something seriously wrong with it and both of them are not able to talk about it. A friend of mine cheated on the love of her life because he was so busy with his band that he didn't have any time left for her, not even when she needed his comfort. He wasn't an asshole, he just forgot her for a while because he was so caught up in his music. In cases like this, cheating is a reaction, a mean one, but also very desperate, and that's why I mostly view cheating as an expression of something very wrong. Sure, if the only excuse is "I was drunk and he/she looked fuckable" it's bad and not really an excuse. But if it goes deeper than that I'm ready to understand both persons or characters. Which doesn't mean that I could forgive my partner so easily if he cheated on me. That's why I'm a little torn on this trope. But what I definetely dislike is the "good girl and bad boy", simply because it's overdone and it sends a questionable message to young readers of how a person HAS TO change for another in order to make it work. No. I also wouldn't get together with someone beating up kids just because I'm trying to convince myself that I'm so different and he will change for me. And in short since I already wrote way too much: My favourite tropes are: - from friends to lovers (I guess because it's the way my two relationships developed and it's just very realistic) - from "enemies" to lovers (as you described it in this video) - singing a song for the other person (it's cheesy as hell but one of my biggest guilty pleasures are the Camp Rock and HSM movies, so what can I say? XD) - SLOWLY developed love (I guess it's not a trope but I just love it to see the feelings blooming realistically so that you can't claim in the course of 3 weeks that you really love someone) And I guess my OTPS are: - Ethan Wate & Lena Duchannes (The Caster Chronicles) - Elena & Stefan (The Vampire Diaries but only from Seasons 1-3) - Katniss & Peeta (The Hunger Games) - Callie & Kayden (The Coincidence of Callie and Kayden) - Katara & Aang (The Last Airbender) 💜💙 Very good and well-structured video :)

[@bookishdaydreams4993]

"Physical attraction in romance is absolutely necessary." (18:08) While I understand why you see it that way, I can't help but find this way of thinking both somewhat harmful and objectively incorrect. Yes, for some people, physical attraction is essential in romance, but for others it's just not. I'm asexual (meaning I don't experience sexual attraction) and I grew up reading a LOT of YA - I often felt like the books I read helped guide me through life. So the fact that romantic and sexual feelings never were seperated in those books led me to believe that I didn't experience romantic attraction either - and since there's basically no aromantic representation in anything at all, I just ended up thinking that I was really messed up or sick in some way. I know for a fact that this is a common experience for both asexual and aromantic people, because most of us don't/didn't know about our own orientations. Basically, saying that romance can't exist without physical attraction erases asexual identities (and furthermore, saying that everyone wants romance erases aromantic ones). I have no hard feelings against anyone who didn't realize that though, since I'm sure it just stems from a lack of knowledge about it. :)

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Sorry, I definitely misspoke and I apologize! I will say that physical attraction in romance is necessary for a lot of people, but I shouldn't have used absolutes!!

[@bookishdaydreams4993]

Jordan Harvey It's totally fine! Thank you for recognizing the mistake though :)

[@jenb7780]

I agree. I'm on the demi side of asexual, but I never think of someone's physical attractiveness beyond aesthetics. I think people's minds are the most interesting thing about them. Intellectual conversation is the stuff of heart flutters for me. I actually find too much physical description of a character's "sexiness" (and they're always the hottest thing ever in existence) to be both false and annoying. Give me things like "her nose was a bit crooked, which XXX thought was adorable". Very few people are super aesthetically gorgeous, so making the character "normal" looking with a few traits that the character finds attractive (physically, mentally, emotionally) is more genuine. Sherlock Holmes is the only Ace/Aro character I can think of off the top of my head.

[@bookishdaydreams4993]

Jen B Yes, I absolutely think too much physical descriptions can make the romance feel really false as well. You make a good point.

[@visualfiction5241]

Lol! I'm aromantic but not asexual so it's hard for me to relate.

[@adrianvalencia7833]

Why are all your videos always so educational and amazing?

[@naughtscrossstitches]

I really appreciate the way you bring about a discussion. You have your solid opinions but you open up a dialogue. I am with you about the lack of realistic relationships. I loved throne of glass but I came into that series after court of thorns and roses, and I'm in love with romances so I like them in everything. I do find that so many relationships in YA are extremely toxic. You briefly mentioned twilight at the end and that is such a good example of a toxic relationship and there are so many in YA!

[@charlotteroberts]

Your production values are really starting to skyrocket. Wonderful video, lovely. Have a great day.

[@themablab9577]

This is such a great vid!💫 I absolutely love love loveee the 'will they won't they' ship so much as well. Cause it'll make me WANT them together so bad that my heart aches for them omg. Also! I love A love so beautiful as well! 💕 I think we might share the same taste for romance yay

[@1ifuckingloveyou]

I actually loved Throne of Glass for the first two books. The romance was really enjoyable and the love triangle wasn’t annoying to me because the two men were friends and all three of them had a lot of respect for one another, instead of two men fighting over a girl like she can’t decide for herself (twilght im looking at you). But now ToG has literally become a joke. Two charachters of the opposite gender can’t spend time together without getting together. Its ridiculous at this point. And I don’t like how SJM tries to force Rowan (the third love interest) onto us. This is also something that I see often in romance. The author tries to convince the readers that the love interest is oh so great instead of just focusing on developing a likeable charachter and trusting the reader’s judgment. Also, I agree with you on objectification, never really thought about it before but now that you mention it I get it. Sorry for the long comment and if I misspelled some words, English is not my first language 😂

[@saraecheverry7632]

I understand your point regarding objectification of men on YA, but I disagree a bit about what equality means when it comes to who gets "objectificated", so to speak. The reason we get so many stories about a handsome man falling inlove with not-so-beautiful woman with good feelings is kind of a reivindication of gender, because us women have been often and sistematicly treated as "slices of meat" made for male amusement, and I think is ok to try and pay back that historic debt with some stories that show, if not the opposit, at least an idea of how could it be like if men acted a little like women are "supposed to" and viceversa. HOWEVER not this argument nor any other justify a bad love sory. I'm sorry for the mistakes I might have made writing this, English is not my first language. Still learning! Great video, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[@diamondwallace5729]

Ever since finding your account months ago and binge watching a lot of your videos of basically tropes and book reviews I gotta say that you've made a lot of spot on points that I never noticed before in the books that I read. In fact your trope video's are totally life-savers of what I should avoid when writing a piece of fanfiction of in fact an original story -like bad boy tropes, two characters falling instantly, love triangles, etc.- and I've been avoiding most of that for a fanfiction that I've been working on for the past two years. Started out to be a romance fanfic but I threw that in the trash since... I don't really enjoy writing romance as much as I used to, and now I wanna focus more on the plot and character build up that doesn't go up and down or swept under the rug when writing. Of course I have the female protagonist but I avoid the 'I'm not beautiful' trope and the trope of a guy having to feel super protective and obsessive of her. Basically what I want is to have my protagonist and the guy friend who she has a platonic relationship with trusts her and will stand by her choice. No romance involved. I mean, I love the romance in a few YA novels that I enjoy; Acotar, Prisoner of Night and Fog, The Hunger Games and Red Queen. But I would love to find a YA novel someday with no mention of the protagonist falling for someone and the plot still being very interesting enough to read and enjoy.

[@sietskevisser8409]

Unless you're writing a love story I don't think romance should be the center of the story. I had the same issue with throne of glass and red Queen. Once I knew were the story was going to I stopped reading. I once tried to not make my protagonist fall in love but then again I couldn't help it hahaha. Also a thing with equality with men and women in YA is sometime a girl comes from a brothel or is send to a brothel but I've never read that a boy was send to a brothel because he was caught or sold off or something. Maybe this is an extreme example but that's something I would like to see change too. Great video as always. You always pinpoint these kind off examples so well

[@futurestoryteller]

The Blacklist has an episode where the anti-hero, Raymond Reddington, tries really hard to squash a sex trafficking ring, and it's implied he has a personal vendetta against their leader. As if it weren't enough that the traffickers go so far as to literally brand children's backs. Up to this point in the show Reddington had been flanked by two loyal associates, a younger woman, and an extremely large African man. Near the end of the episode the man takes his shirt off, revealing a brand on his back.

[@jasminv8653]

That's definitely what bothered me about Six of Crows! Every male character has a very varied background of how they became a nasty crook in the trashy city, but every single female character's past was tied to a brothel. I'm like... wow. Makes me feel empowered, sure, to know the only way I could be on equal terms with these tragic asses was if I was forced to prostitution/forced others into prostitutions/whored out my magic.

[@sietskevisser8409]

Jasmin V Yeah you're absolutly right (sorry for my bad English I don't have google transelate with my now haha) I looooove six of crows!! It's one of my favorite series! But that's something I noticed too. Both girls come from a brothel and I was like uuuh okaaay. I could understand why Inej was there but Nina? She's that kind of girl that doesn't let anyone tell her what to do. But overall I loved the serie

[@sanamaziarz6584]

A book with a male tied to a brothel is definetely "The Young Elites" ^.^ I haven't read the whole trilogy but so far it has much potential and some amazing moments.

[@sietskevisser8409]

Sana Maziarz I want to read that serie too but it's not translated in to Dutch unfortunly. Is it an easy read?

[@underthecover8960]

I kind of feel like romance in YA is forced half of the time, but that's because they tell me I'm getting this epic Syfy or fantasy, and most of the book ends up being, "Wow he's so hot. Does he like me?" Which isn't what I came for. If I know the plot is all about romance then I'm prepared... but with YA it's almost like you have to go in just knowing that it's going to be a romance.

[@futurestoryteller]

I suspect they presume that's what teenagers are interested in, generally speaking. They're very hormonal.

[@underthecover8960]

I guess that's true, but I feel like they should give teens more credit. Just because your hormonal doesn't mean you won't enjoy a good story that isn't structured around just being in love.

[@claryy8]

Oh my, you talking about Anne and Gilbert totally made my day!! 😍 Do you watch the Netflix show? 😇

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I haven't seen it yet. I'm really nervous to watch it because the 1980s adaptation and the books were my childhood and I don't know if the show can live up to that!

[@samh3396]

Jordan Harvey um so i would say it’s more of a reimagining than an adaptation, especially the second season. i still really love it though, so maybe give it a try?

[@janefehr2028]

Jordan Harvey I actually really think you’d like it. Also because they don’t gloss over history and romanticise the era (something too many shows/movies do). Yet they still have beautiful moments and character connections in the show, also bringing new and important storylines (season 2 especially).

[@claryy8]

Jane Fehr you're so right! btw, I love your profile pic, I love skins & especially Cassie! 😊

[@janefehr2028]

Scarlet Moon Thank you, Skins Uk and Anne with an E are both incredible shows. 😊 Also, Anne and Gilbert really are an amazing couple that grow together throughout everything 💕

[@iloveaaronwarnerr]

i love ya romance just because it’s all I read. Like no other genre interests me to be honest and i’m a little too young for new adult 😭

[@forrester_z3881]

I love how the coffee cup, in the background, gets more empty as the video goes on lol

[@ThePsychoNyx]

Really agree with a lot of your points and how balanced and considerate you were of other peoples perspectives that don't mirror your own. This video was super well done and you should defo check out Kdrama called Doctors as the romance actually takes time to develop

[@authoralysmarchand4737]

After a while, all YA romances start to run together. The same few things keep popping up time and again. Some of the ones that grate on me most are people freely in a relationship and cheating, love-triangles, obsessive or abusive relationships portrayed positively, and twu wuv that occurs five seconds after two people first lay eyes on each other. Now the way a love-triangle might be somewhat interesting is if the MC is one of the two rather than the person in the middle. A bad example would be Jacob Black instead of Bella Swan. By the way, an affair that few people are against is Romeo and Juliet. She was engaged, but she also had no choice about that. But so few people even remember that she's engaged and just focus on the families fighting with each other. When it comes to arranged marriages or relationships someone is coerced into, it's not always bad, especially when getting to experience love helps that person learn and/or grow. But this isn't what's shown in most YA romances.

[@flawlesscher]

WOW! I really needed this! I never thought I would want to write a story solely based around a romance over anything else, but here I am. Also, the objectification thing you were talking about, equality and such, I agree 100000%

[@NotaBizarreJoJo]

I'm actually heading to the dentist right now to get my wisdom tooth pulled, so thanks for this video Jordan. It gives me something to watch in the waiting room. 😉

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Not a Bizarre JoJo Good luck with the wisdom tooth!! I hope it isn’t too bad!!

[@rosedalinevaletine6931]

Not a Bizarre JoJo The first two days are nothing, it's the rest of the week you need to be weary of. Good luck!

[@NotaBizarreJoJo]

rosedaline valetine thanks!

[@glasfedernsprung]

Not a Bizarre JoJo I hope it goes well! 🍀 My tipp: eat a lot of ice cream in the week after the operation! 😁

[@NotaBizarreJoJo]

naydi turns out they actually pulled two teeth of my wisdom teeth but it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be

[@JeanetHenning]

Yey, I was so excited about this video when you mentioned it on twitter! Amino sounds awesome, congrats on the sponsorship, you completely deserve it and I think this is so appropriate for your channel. I can't wait to read your serial! It's going to be awesome! I think its so cool that your including us in the process, its really nice! :-) Totally agree about the cheating part, I love that you brought up Anna and the French Kiss because it really repulsed me. Don't know if you watch any or have watched Snow White with the Red Hair but in terms of communication and what I find to be a good love story, this really does it for me, its so good even if I do feel it needed a bit more action for the sitations they found themselves in. I love that you brought up so many tropes because there's actually so much to talk about under this trope. On top of the "objectification" thing where men are objectified and woman are left unobjectified, I've also found that the type of authors who don't "objectify" equally often times end up creating a slut-shaming type vibe when they do describe certain woman, whether intentionally or not so I guess what I'm trying to say it I'm also for equally objectification even though it's not something I've thought about a lot. Agreed with so much of this, would love to see a live trope discussion! :-) Great video as always.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Thanks so much!! I'm so glad you liked it :)

[@ishika5619]

aw yes, YA romance. I was waiting for a trope talk on this one! xD

[@calicowarlock]

Awesome video! You touched on a lot of variations of romance in YA. I adore the "will they won't they" relationships, especially if that's the cliffhanger of a book (basically a slow burn. All for the Game trilogy does this with a relationship over the course of all three books). Meteor Garden is so good! I watched the korean ver Boys Over Flowers a long time ago. I agree with you on objectification. One of my big problems in YA romance are power dynamics. So many are imbalanced and it drives me CRAZY. Especially if it's brushed aside and never talked about and are either excused or justified.

[@MaryKGowdy]

You make some great points. I agree with a lot of what you said. Lately, I haven't been real motivated to read YA partially because of the problems I have with a lot of the romances, and as I've grown older, I'm just not as into reading romance as much as I used to be. I also wanted to let you know that I made a video with more of my thoughts on this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a5rFgKZmndqnqrc

[@camilacaputto7601]

I’m so glad you talked about the amount of male objectification in YA books. It’s incredible how, in a community that calls itself feminist and liberal (mostly), no one is aware of the extent of damage this issue can cause. Especially if we have in mind that it rises the standards a boy has to reach to be “attractive” and be considered worthy of love.

[@cori4727]

I always love your videos like this! Your videos are always so we'll thought out! I wouldn't say the jerk with the tragic backstory so we excuse his behavior is universally hated. In fact, I think a lot of people seem to LIKE this trope. (So many people love bad boys.) Take Jace Wayland and Will Herondale for example. Will Herondale is SO popular in the YA community despite the fact that he's a jerk to Tessa a lot of the time. (I won't spoil his reason but still I was like ????) Also, Anne Of Green Gables is the BEST example of hate to love I've ever seen. Have you watched the new Netflix series? I think Anne and Gilbert are both perfectly cast. Gilbert is a lot less arrogant than he was in the Megan Follows version, and I really liked that. He was so sweet and charming, but still with that Gilbert edge. I loved it!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I adored Gilbert in the original one... haven't seen the new one because the Megan Follows version is so near and dear to my heart and I don't think the new one will be able to live up to it.

[@lial2143]

I agree with you! Romance in YA (not all) has become an almost empty sub-plot that often takes a bigger role in the story with no reason. My favourite trope is the enemies/rivals to friends/lovers, especially when that rivalry is still alive even after the characters bond with each other. About videogames, the objectification is a biiiig problem. I mean, come on, you can make beautiful female characters without objectifiying them and taking away their personality and goals. Sadly, it often happens, like with Miranda? Srry, I don't remember her name, from Mass Effect. Anyway, love you Jordan

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like video games are moving in the right direction, but they still have a ways to go!

[@lial2143]

Jordan Harvey Absolutely! It's good to see how the videogame industry is still getting better, even if it is a step at a time, as well as in other media

[@kitalalaris]

I think you're thinking Ashley, Miranda has way more character and actually has a character arc. She also goes from obnoxious bitch to fairly likable friend and/or companion. Ashley on the other hand was there for the sole purpose of being Male Shepard's love interest, but if you're going to pick out that, you kind of have to acknowledge the fact that Kaidan is treated exactly the same way for Female Shepard and that he literally has no character.

[@milliebw6012]

I definitely agree with you that objectification is a big issue in video games, but there's likely better examples to use than Miranda. A lot of her story and character development is based around her dealing with her perfectionist father, who basically controlled her genetics - hence why she looks the way she does. There were definitely some gratuitous shots in the games, but in games like Mortal Kombat, the way women are portrayed is so unnecessary, and honestly makes no sense practically considering they're supposed to be fighting in those outfits.

[@yowahana]

I think you pretty much described the main problems well; it's interesting how I just now realized that the root of a lot of frustration comes from the idea of "false advertising" the genre of a book. It also relieves me that I haven't fallen into the Throne of Glass trap (unless I end up reading it for redlining purposes) because I think I'd be the type of have thrown the book at a wall with how I've heard the material being handled. Romance is a good vehicle for showing character dynamics and growth, as well as their flaws, but it's rare to have it be THE centerpiece of a story. I'm interested to know if you consume other Asian media now though, like manga and anime, since you mentioned Chinese dramas! The whole idea of objectification in anime is super different from the West, with how the fanservice culture is cultivated, so it's interesting to hear about how in the West it's mostly female authors objectifying male bodies. I'd like to have had more manservice in anime and manga when I still read more of it... I'm also happy you stayed away from the whole power dynamic debate. It's...messy. Very messy...Actually, have you any plans to talk about fandom? This was a great discussion and, while I don't want to bait you down an even scarier rabbit hole, it did get me thinking of that quite a bit.

[@honoree-louisenguyen8634]

Great video! I’d just like to say that I’m super happy you point out male objectification. I think we definitely let it fly under the radar a lot partly because, as you said, fighting against female objectification has received a lot of attention. Another reason imho would be how society view parts of the female anatomy as inherently sexualized, to the point where breastfeeding your child in public is considered offensive. I once read a review of a book where the reviewer was enraged that many female characters’ boobs were described (from the POV of a teenage boy) and asked if there were equal treatment of the two genders (as some other claimed) then why don’t we see descriptions of the men’s d***? I admit that the book has its problems, but to draw such equivalence (even in exaggeration) is ridiculous. I did recall at least one occasion in the same book where a female character described a man’s physique, how hot he was, and how many women would like to be his lovers. Granted, he’s also in a position of power, which can be another factor for the appeal, but I don’t see anyone point out that this counts as objectification too.

[@steamedpunk13]

I only find issues with romances when the couple (major tangent actually - can we see some more triads or other kinds of relationships in romance subplots? You know what would solve 95% of love triangles? Open relationship or poly relationship. Just saying. Rant over) just lacks any chemistry. It's essentially just writing another antagonist, to me. There needs to be a reason why you couldn't put in any other romantic option for that character. Also, I disagree on the abs front. We need more abs. Every character (male or female) should have abs, and spend the entire book wearing crop tops or going shirtless. And there will be page after page in which the abs of each character will be described in minute detail. Because, well, abs. #ShareTheLove #ShirtlessLove

[@cfadeathfries]

Jordan:I would love to hear your thoughts. Me: *laughs hysterically* what thoughts?

[@hadleya.356]

One story that I thought handled insta-love pretty well was Always Human. There were a few fights, but it always felt like both characters cared about each other. I think it probably helps that the story moves from being about their romance to being about their character development as individuals pretty quickly though.

[@sebastienlee7037]

Katniss and Peeta was such a great romance, but the love triangle was completely unnecessary.

[@Fatasscar67]

my girlfriend loves solangeo, a ship that is not my favorite as I haven't really read the books that focus more on that relationship. she's a dork and it's cute when she makes art for it. the relationship kinda surprised me but I don't think it's horrible. I wrote this entire comment just so I could say my girlfriend because siofjs hehheehe she's my girlfriend uwu

[@lizzychrome7630]

The one that drives me up a wall is when everyone is romantically pursuing one person. Yes, there are people who the opposite sex will generally agree are "attractive," but that's different than everyone being *specifically* attracted to the same person. Real people have different tastes. All the girls in the school want the football star? Really? All of them? Even the nerdy girls who aren't interested in sports? Even the goth girls who hate "preps?" Even the lesbians? When my female friends and I used to fight about hot guys, we were usually fighting over which guy *was* the "hot" one, and almost never agreed. For example, I abhor six packs. And I'm sick of them infesting my fan art browsing.

[@emilybriceno9786]

“Human body meat” 🤣

[@wolfferoni]

I agree with what you said, particularly about how much people can change from the beginning of their teen years to the end of their teen years. I feel like a lot of young teens fall for problematic guys a lot more easily as long as they're attractive and _seem_ like they care, especially love interests that are perhaps a little obsessive or overprotective. I suppose at that time, young girls want to be seen as attractive and important to guys, and possessiveness can be seen as more of an extreme (unhealthy) portrayal of care. When I was 13, I was absolutely in love with Twilight for a few years and I've looked back on that over the years, struggling to understand how. Perhaps it's because it's the first taste of romance that they get in combination with their hormones and crushes etc. Maybe it also has something to do with how we're raised and what young girls are taught about romance. The whole ridiculous "he's mean to you because he likes you" or needing to be the damsel in distress. It would be interesting to see a study about this. As we get older, attractiveness plays (much) less of a part, and we focus a lot more on personality and behaviours of characters. Even though it can be embarrassing to look back at what we used to like, I think it's important to acknowledge that that's just how we were which makes who we are now, all the better.

[@PhoebeWritesFiction]

Some great points made. Romance is DEFINITELY divisive in YA fandoms. I'm not sure what my particular taste is, although I love a healthy relationship with a slow burn. And I'm actually a sucker for miscommunication, if, as you say, it grows out of good intentions.

[@lifebyjo3999]

Congrats on the sponsorship Jordan! I’m so happy for you. I loved this video, it’s so true about the pros and cons of romance in YA. It’s a big part of why I stopped reading it for a while. I mentioned it in two videos I did (not sure if you’ve seen them already but I’ll link them anyway): kzbin.info/www/bejne/pobQm6RpjZukeZI

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Thank you!! And I'll check them out for sure :)

[@lifebyjo3999]

Jordan Harvey cool 😎 here’s the other one... kzbin.info/www/bejne/eorNnJyFrbmZiJo

[@Sofia-kx2ep]

At first, I thought you were really harsh, but the more I watched your videos, I started to understand and actually like you. Even tho we have a lot of different opinions about books. Personally, I love Throne of Glass. I think that book three and every book after that, Sarah J. Maas really started to develop the characters, and unfortunately it was a bit late. But I do see your way of thinking really entertaining to see. You criticize without being really blunt.

[@tessaariane6931]

I loved this video and I agree wholeheartedly. I have so much thoughts about the topic! I hate that today you can't have a ya book without romance. There are so many books I loved but the romance annoyed me so much I couldn't enjoy the book as much as I would have without it. And don't get me started on the whole "He treats her like shit because he had a bad child hood." Adults tell younger girls that boys are only mean to them because they like them. That thinking is so harmful and ya books follow a similar path, showing young girls that it's okay if a boy treats you like shit because he actually is a nice guy and just degrades you because he is in love with you and wants to protect you. Another thing I notices is that in a lot of cases we have the big stong bad guy and the pretty, weak good girl who, in a lot if times, is also a virgin. Many people for some reason think this is romantic but I look at it and think: fucking gender roles. Especially because when you would turn the trope, the girl would be called a bitch and everyone would hate her while the boy wouldn't be a "true man" etc. Also: I hate Insta love in general but in a lot of cases insta love is not insta love, but insta lust. The characters do not love each other they just think they're attractive and especially for girls that can be harmfull too. The guy treats her like shit but it's okay because he's hot. And sometimes attraction can be seen as love. Regarding the cheating thing. I agree! I also read a lot of LGBTQ books because I can't really find myself connecting with straight love stories and a thing I noticed was that in a lot of cases it seems to be okay when one character is in a relationship with the opposite sex and kisses a person from the same sex. For some reason it's not considered cheating even tho there shouldn't be a difference. That person is still in a relationship, it doesn't matter if they are actually gay or whatever. I could go on and on but maybe I should stop. Thank you for the video.I really enjoyed it :)

[@thedarkphoenix1640]

I completely agree. I have a book concept I really want to write but I'm stuck on how the love interest should be. It's been really hard to come up with on since I want the relationship to be like a real life healthy relationship.

[@stingingcake853]

the whole 'it says scifi but is really a romance with scifi undertones' hit me hard. Like thats one of the reasons I stopped reading a lot once I got into high school because all of the older books didn't have the same level of stories or adventure that books meant for children had. It came to a point where I realized that if it even mentioned romance or something on the blurb, thats what the book was going to be about. And don't get me wrong I love romance, but most of the time it just isn't that competent. Insta-love I think only works if its kind of fairy tale like, or if the moment is established, like 'eyes meet and the world slows down and neither of them know what to do with it' not I just met you and I love you and this is fine. If its like reincarnation than it gives a little lee way. The best will they won't they is when two character aren't explicitly in a relationship, but they basically are and everyone can see it, and when they get together nothing exactly changes

[@cat5220]

“Like the great Philly D would say” yaaasss Jordan YAAASSSSS!!!! :3

[@DrMike18]

Yes to all of this! Most romance is YA is so cringy, especially when they reduce the love interest to their breast size and ab count. Like it's cool that they're hot, but what else is there about them? Granted, I would take that over the abusive elements that are overly romanticized. I didn't realize how dangerous YA romances are until after working at Planned Parenthood and learning about the signs of abusive relationships which I see now in a majority of YA romances. On the bright side, it does make me think more critically about the romances I write. Reading through my older stuff, I see these problematic tropes more and more. Also, there's another trope I can't stand in YA that relates to insta-love: the insta-love that's the first relationship that turns out to be true love. Like no. Stop convincing young people that the first person you fall in love with will end up being your future husband/wife. It's one thing if it's treated like they're the high school love interest, they break up after high school ends, and they reconnect as adults then get married. That's fine. I can believe that. But I'm talking about the romances where they never break up and at fifteen they decide that person is who they're going to marry and stay with for the rest of their lives. I was guilty of a insta-love for the main protagonist in my book, but then I thought about it and realize how dumb of an idea that is since the series starts when he's 17 and ends when he's 27/28. So I'm modifying it to show him in multiple, HEALTHY relationships before he settles down and gets married.

[@MidoriGaleart]

Hi, i'm an author from Chile, i write fantasy novels in light novel style for YA. In my most popular story i don't have romance because the personalities of the characters and the situations, till the very end of the saga (between 8 main characters there's only one couple at the finale, and one character with a platonic love). Readers, and strangely adults (between 20 and 30) ask me for romance, they're angry because i didn't gave them one, "why i do this to them", ask me most of the time, and i'm like "excuse me? they're trying not to die while traveling in a collapsing world". Most of my characters have strong personalities, and huge psychological scars, and even tried to kill each other at the beginning; still, people crave for crushes. I think people believes "a fantasy book must have everything out of the reality", and always look for stuff that isn't real, even relationships. The ones that think like you find unnecessary romance in my story, that is right the way it is, even my publisher. I see where this come from: it's so exciting the feeling of rollercoaster that make 2 characters that hate and love each other, changing between pages like day and night, it's a drug, and angst as i call it; and is toxic, and unrealistic and not healthy, but, since no one wants to live that, they look for it in the stories. It's a morbid thing, the same as share gossips.

[@owningmediocricy6487]

This is a helpful video for me. I have been watching multiple authortube videos to help me develop a graphic novel I have in my mind and really did not know where or if, I wanted to take the 2 main characters journey as far as possible romance,. Especially since they are in high school. This gave me plenty to consider and think about. Such as distractive subplots to keep that from happening right off the bat. Since well, when I was growing up romance didn't go much further than going to the movies and making out in the upper rows with other teenage couples or sneaking out of the dance to make out in the stairwells, with other teenage couples. So, thank you for sharing your opinions and explaining them.

[@owningmediocricy6487]

p.s. I do know what romance actually is now.

[@charvandoorn8423]

I wrote a novel where there’s no romance in the first book because it just doesn’t fit in the story and characters. and a lot of people keep saying “if there’s no romance I won’t read it” and I’m like; read a romance novel then?

[@Notfallkaramell]

It's so weird. I'm kinda worried for my stuff, hardly any romance in my projects.

[@charvandoorn8423]

@@Notfallkaramell yea me too, there is a romance but mostly happens during the second book, but obviously you have to read the first before that so that fear is definitely there

[@PalomaDreams17]

Part of what I liked about Matched is that everything about its packaging, including the title, tells you that while the setting is dystopian, this is a romance novel first, so you get exactly what's expected. Also, the main character's life is comfortable enough to realistically have love as a focus--she's not like Katniss who has to worry about the well-being of her family all the time (of course, there are the bad parts, but the main character doesn't know about the bad parts until the end). There's a love triangle, but instead of waffling on and on about "WhO wILl i ChOSe?" We see her growing bond with both of the boys. Also the dark and mysterious boy she likes is aloof with a dark past but is actually a nice dude. No, it's not god's gift to literature but it's the nice, fun book that everyone needs sometimes.

[@starlitpagessya635]

The Floating Islands by Rachel Neumeier comes to mind, watching this video. So I am recommending! 🙂

[@cinnis5670]

Yeah! Another Jordan vid!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Cinnis 💜

[@sionnadehr3313]

Hi! I'm on Amino, too! Nice to know I'm not alone :)

[@StephenKingWannabe]

Excited!

[@freman007]

There was an element of instalove in my younger brother's marriage. His wife saw him playing in the church band and she was like, "I'm going to marry him" and she did. She was about fourteen or fifteen when she came up with that idea, and she was 20 when they married. Four kids and many years later they are still crazy about each other.

[@raptorkid7477]

7:55 wow Rhysand is that you??