Trope Talk: Interspecies Love in Sci-fi vs. Fantasy (Collab)

[@sailiealquadacil1284]

A lot of people get this wrong, and I can't stress this enough: Arwen did not give up her immortality for Aragorn. Arwen was one of the "half-elven", one who was descended from mortals and immortals alike. All members of her family were presented with a choice: to be counted among the Firstborn and live forever, or to be counted among the Secondborn, and receive the gift of death. Elrond chose the former, his twin Elros (who was Aragorn's ancestor) the latter. Arwen and her brothers were a special case: Their choice was postponed for as long as Elrond lived in Rivendell, so they were immortal by default. Arwen could have married Aragorn and retain her immortality (as did Idril), and later taken the ship to Valinor, as indeed Aragorn urges her to do on his deathbed. However, elves do not forget. So going to Valinor would have meant that Arwen was either going to bring her unfulfilled love (if she went without marrying Aragorn) or her grief following his death with her, to remember those feelings for ever. Probably because of what happend with her parents, she chose she didn't want that, and would rather be mortal. One life, one love, and then, release. A better example for your video would have been the story of Beren and Lúthien - Lúthien actually sacrificed her immortality to bring Beren back to life after he was killed. If she hadn't, they wouldn't have had a future. Arwen and Aragorn would have had one, even without Arwen's "sacrifice".

[@IUsedToBeAnAdventurerLikeYou]

Lilian Achura I love the tale of Beren and Lúthien

[@Eliras24]

I agree. She didn't sacrifice herself, she just choose love over immortality because she felt it in that way (on what appears to be the case). And if you choose to give up on something for yourself, it's clearly not a sacrifice, because in her point of view a sacrifice would've been spend all her eternity alone in the grief for his beloved death. At least that's how i saw it

[@Zarih67]

If you want to criticize something it is always best to actually know what you are talking about. Now G just showed she had not read or at least not understood what she was reading. The irony.

[@RKGold]

The human vs AI storylines have gotten really popular, but also really good

[@dohickey7184]

1:01 my left ear enjoyed this

[@CharlesCraigOfficial]

"Often times as humans we opt for ease over substance." Don't mind me, I'll just be over here shaken to the core.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Charles Craig hahah

[@Dylan_Devine]

Now, now, Jordan, let’s not forget about the plethora of dinosaur erotica polluting the internet (and by extension the world). Some great hit titles include but not are not limited to: “Taken by the T-Rex,” “Satisfied by a Stegosaurus,” and the brilliantly named “Space Raptor Butt Trilogy.” I wish I was making these up, but their existence is the peak of literature and we should just give up and stop trying, because the author of the Space Raptor Butt trilogy already has us beat. What else is there to write about?

[@arnebargholz8848]

Sooo, is this advertisement for your writings? XD

[@CaughtBetweenPages]

This was wonderful! I hope to see more collabs between you guys :D

[@JordanHarveybooks]

We're definitely hoping to do more and are perhaps looking at making this a series!

[@russellewelchiii]

Do it! I most ardently demand it!

[@69Kazeshini]

I always liked this in devil may cry, A demon falling in love with a human giving up his status as a demon general and living with a human that will die long before him.

[@ellie7646]

I tried one episode of that horrid anime. Still get flashbacks.

[@chiyokotakeda309]

The best surprise when you come home from school is finding out that two of your favourite booktubers have done a collaboration😍

[@flawlesscher]

my two favourite intellectuals!

[@armstronghawkins9183]

I hadn't thought of "Ex Machina" as a "cautionary tale of *what might go wrong*" in the creation of A.I. I thought it was more of a critique of who we (humans) are to begin with. Eva is exactly who she's supposed to be b/c her creator is cold and calculating and, literally, hanging his creations in wardrobes like props. And Nathan's love for Eva, though sincere, is egotistical and shallow; he's no more capable of connecting than the more calculating Caleb. Eva isn't so much the creation-gone-wrong or villian-monster, than she is the proverbial artificial chicken coming home to roost. The failure/danger isn't her, it's us. I thought the end kinda implied that maybe she'll be capable of becoming something more beautiful than the humanity around her. : ) I love "Starman" (1984)! Best human/alien love story ever! ...but...not the tv show...just the movie. : )

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I definitely don't disagree with your reading of it, though I'll argue it can be both. Like Blade Runner, it brings into question the nature of humanity, and as you pointed out, critiques it. I don't necessarily agree that "the failure/danger isn't her, it's us" though, because she is conscious and therefore equally as capable of both good and evil as a human. That's how I read it anyways, and why I consider it to be a bit of a cautionary tale.

[@anadialessombres8004]

I love how her name is Galatea like the myth and they’re talking about inter species relationships!😂😂😂

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Anadia Les Sombres I know haha

[@kyriss12]

I always had major issues with sci fi interspiecies couple having children. How would that even be possible for to different species who took different evolutionary pathways under entirely different conditions

[@69Kazeshini]

it could work in fantasy but in sci fi its just weird unless its like an asari. The asari race takes 90% of other species dna,dumps it and then takes the 10% and use it for genetic diversity, however the outcome is always asari. in short human + asari = asari.

[@kyriss12]

Even the evolution of that one makes little sense if you think about it. The only way way that could have evolved pre space travel was if they were vary sparsely populated, and had a thing for boning animals, or b their home planet initially had a bunch of intelligent lifeforms that heavily outnumbered them, and they developed that feature as a way to breed everyone else out of existence.

[@69Kazeshini]

in the game it was stated that they were altered and uplifted by a precursor race, They guided them for a bit then left them. Also they can still mate with each other they didnt start mating with other species until they advanced to the point of intergalactic travel.

[@cristalgreen7556]

Yay my two favourite BookTubers in one video!

[@hayleyhistorynerd2211]

Ah love vs. practicality fun to read about, a total drag to experience. Great collab guys! I will definitely be checking out Galitea's chancel too. I love trope talks! Hayley ^_^

[@caelynjoan]

I must say I’m not an avid sci-fi/fantasy reader but I genuinely find your videos very interesting and fun to watch. 💕

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Why thank you Caelyn!

[@JanetDax]

AI/ Human has recently been done very nicely on The Orville, but there is also ST:Next Gen and Voyager. My favorite is the Niska/ Astrid relationship on the series Humans.

[@TheodoraArella]

My brain is now properly stimulated ❤️ I think you manage to talk about this trope with enough depth and each of you succeded in making great points! Will definitely watch more videos like this

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Theodora Arella Thanks! I’m glad you liked it!! There’s one more on her channel, so definitely go check that out too :)

[@johnclark3531]

Mass Effect. The example of all these topics in one source. Alien romance, AI romance, any romance you can shake a stick at Mass Effect has it.

[@sumi_08]

i thought the other girl was renesmee from twilight omg

[@CrazyStoneTiger]

Great video! I’ve been writing a Science Fantasy novel centering on an interspecies romance

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

I started watching you both separately and am so excited you did a colab. And this too! Thanks for the vid.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Thanks! Yeah she's the best!! We actually did another collab here which you can check out :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/eWKWo42slKyrrKs

[@starlitbri]

I never thought I would that there's a subgenre of erotica about aliens. Always learning something new from you, Jordan. In all seriousness, this was a great video! Learning about a trope that crosses Sci-Fi and Fantasy shows how connected these two genres can be, and how a trope have its own subcategories and can show up in different genres in slightly different ways.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

You're welcome for the alien erotica. And I'm glad you liked the video! Be sure to check out the one we did on her channel too.

[@donovannotmyname7306]

Awe, happy to see that you mentioned Mass Effect.

[@lenastorm6280]

Thank you for mentioning “Knife”! I like this book, but nobody seems to know this book!

[@cheesecake6159]

When you talk you can capture the whole of my attention. Love the collab. And love how your friend mentions Stardust more than twice😍

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Thank you! We're doing another one soon, so stay tuned :)

[@Rp3nr]

Absolutely LOVED this video!! You both are such intelligent ladies and I loved seeing you examine this trope through the different lenses, because even though a lot of the times sci-fi and fantasy are often lumped together as just “SFF” I think it’s very important to look at where they diverge and how things are treated differently in each genre. This was also particularly interesting to me because I’m actually about to start work for my college thesis which surrounds the evolvement of the treatment of gender in vampire fiction!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Oh cool! What an interesting idea for a thesis! I'm so glad that you enjoyed the video. I do think it's really interesting to see the differences in the two genres, because a lot of the times they do share a lot of similarities, but oftentimes because of context and setting, they are forced to treat the same idea differently.

[@v.b.vallennes2928]

This was great. You are my two favourite booktubers thank you for collaborating :)

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I'm so glad you enjoyed it!

[@JiixBooks]

Wonderful collaboration! You guys got some interesting results in comparing the two genres like this :)

[@JordanHarveybooks]

JiixBooks Thanks! I’m so glad you liked it!!

[@candidbayproductions]

What an eloquent analysis by both ladies! I've waited a while for this type of break-down surrounding the allure of the human/"other" dynamic. As a sci-fi author currently exploring such relationships in my own novel, this video further helps categorize the tropes in such a way that facilitates avoidance of overly cliche scenarios. Brilliant work.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

So glad you liked it! It was definitely a fun trope to look into.

[@angelique9527]

Another lovely video! I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to watch/listen to such articulate, intelligent, and educated breakdowns and insight when it comes to story. Loved it, as usual-your trope talks are some of my all time favorites and this collab was amazing. :) Thank you for this content; looking forward to your next video!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Thanks so much! I'm so glad you enjoyed it. We did another one on her channel, so definitely go check that out as well.

[@angelique9527]

Jordan Harvey Yes, I immediately went over there lol. She earned herself a new sub. :D Love both you ladies!

[@ethanarc]

Love when you guys collab

[@Vickynger]

super interesting! though i love writing and reading interspecies romance from time to time, ive never thought about the whys and how and so on... great video!

[@zhutchinson98]

Such a good analysis of these tropes!

[@chitkale]

Omg! I really love your videos! especially your trope talks are amazing! Thank you so much 😊 And this literally made my day ❤️❤️

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Oh my goodness, you just made my day!

[@lenap319]

I was waiting for you two to collab

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Another one coming soon!

[@lenap319]

Jordan Harvey YES

[@santanasg8445]

This collab was really great! Even though I don't really have different species (or plan to) on my projects, I found your ideas and the comparisons between famous franchises really interesting :)

[@JordanHarveybooks]

santanasg Thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed it :)

[@DarthSoto78]

2:29 was I the only one that thought she was going to say Mass Effect 1-3.

[@samh3396]

So I don’t really have any insightful comments, I’m just here for the viewer-channel interaction. Love you and your channel ♥️

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Samantha Huynh thanks so much!!!

[@tessavery2151]

Yes!!! I love watching both of your troupe talks and discussions! So happy you finally did a collab...😍💖

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Thanks Tess!!

[@fadeelaismail318]

First time watching a trope talk video 😁 absolutely love it very insightful and interesting definitely learned alot about the sci-fi genre can't wait for more videos 😋

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Oh good! I'm glad you liked it. Feel free to check out my other trope talks in the meantime, or the video we did on Galatea's channel!

[@Wright805]

My all-time favourite interspecies love is Swamp Thing and Abby Arcane.

[@Johnlindsey289]

What about human male X nonhuman woman love like Cheetah and Batman or Hattonslayden's artworks?

[@Wright805]

@@Johnlindsey289 Good question. I'll have to think about that.

[@Wright805]

@@Johnlindsey289 Just remembered. I quite like Zak (human) and Crysta (fairy) from "Ferngully: The Last Rainforest."

[@Johnlindsey289]

@@Wright805 What did you think of Cheetah and Batman?

[@Wright805]

@@Johnlindsey289 Sorry but I have no interest in it whatsoever. I despise Batman and I'm indifferent to Cheetah.

[@mickymcbryan4814]

Garrus Vakarian wasn't in the thumb nail. 😭😭😭

[@WoolySheepie]

I commented when you first uploaded this and now I can't remember what I said, but I'll try my best 😂 An amazing video as always, and I love that it's a collab! Also, I'm so glad to hear more about fantasy tropes, they're always really interesting topics to to discuss! Personally, I like the use of interspecies relationships when used as metaphors for interracial and intercultural relationships - so like the forbidden love aspect you talked about. In the fantasy series I'm currently writing, there's a big focus on hybrids and how they are viewed as monsters and treated differently because of who and what they are, and as they are the result of interspecies relationships, these relationships are banned. It's definitely an interesting topic to write about and opens up so many plotlines!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

True! The metaphor for interracial relationships is a great point. It's definitely interesting to see that explored.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Also, I saw that you commented on the first one, but it was supposed to be unlisted, so like... Idk how that happened!

[@WoolySheepie]

Jordan Harvey KZbin going a bit crazy probably 😂

[@JordanHarveybooks]

That seems to be a trend. KZbin needs to get it together. I had a minor heart attack when you commented so I immediately deleted the video!

[@WoolySheepie]

Jordan Harvey Yeah it does seem to be that way at the moment 😂 Also, I'm sorry! Personally, I thought the original video was great anyway!

[@annienorthbooks]

You're both brilliant! So great you two did this together - the way you analyze tropes and fiction in general is impressive. Loved this!

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I'm so glad you enjoyed it Annie! Definitely check out her channel, she's very intelligent and insightful in her reviews and discussion videos!

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

i know they still fit the trope, but technically elves in Tolkien's legendarium are the same species as humans (but not dwarves who are completely separate), and also in the legendarium dieing just sends humans to a different place and is described as a gift, combined with the prophecy that in the future humans and elves will reunite from arwen's perspective she is only temporarily giving up her family and is not looseing anything by dieing (plus she will meet her uncle who was human), also he never had to earn her love only the aprovel of society and her father.

[@leathehatless]

This is so interesting! I really like how both of you were able to create paralels between both genres and tropes. I will check The Autenthic Observer channel, she has a very clever input into tropes. :)

[@JordanHarveybooks]

She does! She's brilliant, I definitely recommend checking her channel out.

[@jumdod1890]

Loved the video and discussion, I love Warm bodies, and you made me realize I enjoyed it so much because it explored what it means to be human with actual character development and changes, not just narration, random scenes, or philosophical quotes. But a little disappointed that you didn't mention Bicentennial Man :\ I loved that movie as a child and I went back to it recently to see if I would still enjoy it, and yes, it's still such a wonderful emotional movie.. And the best part is that it's told from the perspective of the non- human, so it really does push you to think.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

I haven't seen, or even heard of Bicentennial Man if I'm honest! It's impossible to get everything though. Glad you enjoyed the video and perhaps I'll check it out :)

[@jumdod1890]

I don't know why but for some reason I thought (or assumed) that everyone on the planet knew Bicentennial Man, like it's almost as big as the shawshank redemption or the godfather... Must be because it was shown on TV a lot where I live.. It's one of Robin Williams's best performances imo, and ofc it's impossible to get everything (please don't get me wrong I wasn't criticizing, I just meant that if mentioned, this video would've been perfect for me 👌) Keep up with the great content! 💖

[@87idk]

I've read Space Raptor Butt Invasion. That's some seriously weird interspecies relationships.

[@prowolf633]

I want to write an interspecies romance, so this video could be a load of help

[@token1371]

What did I get myself into? I was intrigued about your SW:TLJ review, was impressed; BP review, was impressed; watched your trope series, same thing; watched today and subscribed. I only subscribe to less than 10 channels. I've never taken drugs, maybe this is what addiction feels like. Wonderful content on a topic I know nothing about but I enjoy learning new things. I did cringe when you said "Often times as humans we opt for ease over substance". Next you will tell me Santa isn't real! Question: Can the reason an inter-species relationship often fail is because the human initially search for some humanity in the non-human as they attempt to connect dots of random human behavior and later face reality? Would that be considered a trope? I will later watch your video again with my mouth closed this time. Best wishes Jordan.

[@idonteatspiders2986]

The holy duo

[@DrEllert]

Yay a new JH! I'll be lying saying I didn't wait for this. I cried a little in Saturday seeing you didn't upload :( Romance is my Achilles heel I'll admit - I don't write it that good. It always comes out flat. Still you two gave me a lot of food for thought. Also, something I wanted to ask - when you reference a book, can you add a small picture on the screen? I think TAO referenced some books that I'm not sure how to write their name down.

[@JordanHarveybooks]

amir ellert For sure, in the future I’ll definitely do that! And sorry for not posting on the weekend, I was really sick and it took a while to edit! Glad you liked it though :)

[@cloudgirl150]

5:31 what trilogy is she talking about? I heard witcher and immediately thought of Geralt lol

[@JordanHarveybooks]

His Dark Materials/The Golden Compass!

[@Faith-Trust-Pixie-Dust]

Warm Bodies has a sequel called The Burning World!!! It's really good!! Check it out!

[@_spooky_mars_]

If you want alien-human romance go read the Lunar Chronicles. I thought it was good. Another example was The Host (yes by Stephanie Meyer but its better than Twilight I swear)

[@annikajokerst8920]

Marley _Is_A_Martian I also liked the host

[@MadAtreides1]

Arwen has never let go of her immortality, it's not something she can do on her volition... That's just a film thing. In the book it's stated she suffered for all eternity after Aragorn's death.

[@ThexCSmOuse]

Honestly , the video is great video , the only thing you should try to improve is that when The Authentic Observer talks i can only hear her in my left earphone and its a bit annoying =P EDIT: or maybe its my PC i dunno

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Sorry, I'm not sure what her setup is!

[@jpaduch8122]

+Jordan Harvey same here but meh not much u can do about it anyway, great video btw

[@Sohiawrites]

All her videos are like that! She should fix it so I could watch her lol

[@ThaAlkaholik13]

That's an intended feature of her channel! :D

[@anothercub6958]

Werewolf-Human romance is just furry wish fulfillment:Change my mind😂

[@Johnlindsey289]

it's 2020, furry is ok

[@anothercub6958]

@@Johnlindsey289 Lol I'm a furry

[@yiannis5972]

Now I'm questioning my human / giant romance in my high fantasy series

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Why? We're not saying it's bad, just pointing out our observations about the trope!

[@anothercub6958]

That sounds amazing

[@veikko4752]

I wouldn't hate it, sounds unique :)

[@dreamerinthefalls5419]

I paid for ads on your channel. You are welcome! i love your channel keep it up friends

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Thanks!

[@lisakate853]

One of my favorite interspecies story is Daughter of Smoke and Bone. I'd LOVE to hear what you both think of them! Oh and Shrek, I mean that's one you really can't beat.

[@Sunny-ek8sx]

The fantasy part was only in my left ear??? Anyone else?

[@JordanHarveybooks]

Unfortunately I didn't notice her audio wasn't working on the left side. Sorry!

[@wyrmoffastring]

Does everyone forget that Arwen and Aragorn are cousins, lol?

[@delusionalbroccoli302]

Scurvy Dan Not by blood if I remember correctly. Aragorn was raised in rivendell bc his parents were dead and that’s how he met Arwen.

[@sailiealquadacil1284]

They are distantly related. Ararogn is descended from Elros, the twin-brother of Elrond, Arwen's father. However, in between you have the Kings of Númenor, the Kings of Arnor and Arthedain, and the Chieftains of the Dúnedain. So it's a very distant kind of relationship. And it's not uncommon for elves to marry someone they're related to, like Galadriel and Celeborn, Elrond and Celebrían, Eärendil and Elwing, and Dior and Nimloth.

[@rockyblacksmith]

First cousins 57 times removed if I remember correctly. Meaning 58 generations between Aragorn and Arwen's uncle Elros (who chose to live a mortal life). So genetically speaking, that is well beyond any concern of inbreeding.

[@sailiealquadacil1284]

Or something like that. We don't have a complete list of the Lords of Andúnië, after all, but it's probably safe to assume there was one lord per king/queen.

[@domingo2977]

be careful shes cute

[@KajsaBernhardina]

Interesting points and good collab, however this video was waaaaay too scripted. It just seemed like both of you were monolouging each other. That is not compelling for the audience. I would have liked a more free discussion, with spontaneous thoughts and reflections. Anyway, thanks for the effort!

[@nun_ya_bizz]

What horrible movie choices for syfy romance. Ex machina is not about romance at all, and the only person with romantic feelings is being played the whole time. Bladerunner's romance is so creepy, the forceful kiss is just so uncomfortable. I don't understand why you couldn't use Her, which actually has an AI and human fall in love and still puts into question the idea of humanity and love. Or if you still want to use a creepy love like bladerunner why not fifth element that has an actual God like being be the key to saving the world with love and is in love with the main protagonist. Other syfy movies that aren't romance, but have romance in them: The Island, Looper, Equalibrium, Repo Men, Moon, Oblivion, even Wall E would have been a better choice.

[@Johnlindsey289]

What about Armitage III where it has a cyborg who can get pregnant by a human man and she conceived a hybrid child in the sequel?

[@nun_ya_bizz]

@@Johnlindsey289 holy shit that is literally what the second bladerunner is about! 0.o did they steal their story line?

[@oscarnemo8084]

TAO needs warmer light or white balance, or to compensate with makeup. The pallor is distracting, especially in contrast to JH (who seems to be overdoing all three a bit). So is the left-channel audio. It's an easy fix in editing once you know to do it. Ladies, learn from each other. You're making good content, both of you. Make it even better.