Romans 9 Twisted Scripture Greg Boyd

An honest look at Romans 9 and who the chosen people of God are (those who are in Christ the Israel of God).

[@glennmariacher4525]

I wish I could put 2 million likes to this one. This is, hands down, the best explanation for Romans 9 !! This truly is " good news " for any believer and searcher. Glenn

[@matttttt63]

Grateful for this man's ministry today. He makes the "good news" actually sound like good news.

[@matttttt63]

4 years later, apparently, I'm still struggling and wrestling with this.

[@davidgray7140]

I changed my mind because of Dr Boyd's IRREFUTABLE ARGUMENT. ❤

[@falconguy4768]

Wow now you brought home the point so well thank you Pastor

[@CypherOzzie]

Excellent!!

[@jeffjazzy2106]

Gods ways are higher than our ways... and you are trying to bring god down to your understanding.

[@vernonpurdy8607]

First time I’ve heard this scripture interpreted like this. It seams absolutely correct in comparison to Jesus.

[@jrmitchell12]

Here are a few flaws that I see in this video. 1. At the beginning of Romans 9, Paul is grieved that he is saved and other Jews are not "I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit- I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people". He then tries to reconcile how is it possible that he is saved when the Jews were the ones that were supposed to receive the promise. That is the flow of the argument. That is the reason it is about salvation, because that is specifically what Paul is wrestling with at the beginning of the chapter. 2. Verse 30 is not a "summary of the chapter", it is just another objection that one might have to his argument. He even makes the same "What then shall we say?" in verse 14. If I took your view of this, I could just say that THAT with its answer should have been the end of the chapter. 3. What does it mean to be "true Israel" if not saved? Sure, he is saying it doesn't have to do with ethnic physical blood background, but what else other than being in Christ and saved would it mean to be part of a "true Israel"? 4. "He doesn't appeal to what God arbitrarily does". Who on the positive side of the deterministic debate is arguing that God arbitrarily does this? No one. 5. "Any interpretation on Romans 9 that undermines free will has got to be wrong, because Paul's own summary of his argument emphasizes free will". This might have been a good point if you only read to 30-32, but what about verse 33, the very next verse? 'As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."' Who laid the rock? Who is causing people to stumble? Just because they choose in their own will to choose something doesn't mean that they have complete free will in the sense that it is outside of his divine will. 6. "Here obviously Paul doesn't see hardening as a permanent thing... it's done out of love for the purposes of redemption" Where in the world are you getting this from Romans 9? "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." So he is contrasting people he is mercying with people he is hardening. That seem to imply that people He is hardening are not being given mercy. If this were truly about hardening for the purposes of redemption then why in the world would he even go through the entire objection and answer in 19-21? If it was obviously about redemption and not giving mercy then why even say "One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”" This question doesn't even make sense to ask if it is about redeeming people! 7. Regarding Jeremiah 18, can someone make a point using a similar example but be making a different point? Read 20-24 a few times in a row. Does that sound to you like he has a spoiled clay and is making the best use with what he has? "make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use" He is literally making it out of the same lump, there is no difference in the lump, it has to do with what he wills that part of the lump to be. Also, if it were about God being flexible and working with what he has, how in the world is that an answer to the rhetorical question he is asking in the first place. This is supposed to be in answer to the question "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" Who can resist his will? Why does he blame us? Was the answer "well you had the free will and you chose what you were going to do, so I just did the best with what I had". Emphatically NO! 8. "God is saying he has mercy on whomever he wants and hardens whomever he wants...what he is saying is God will have mercy on whomever he wants and the ones he wants to have mercy on are those who will simply have faith... and the ones that god will harden are the ones that won't have faith." How does this make any sense at all given what it actually says. It says God will mercy and God will harden. God is doing SOMETHING right? Otherwise, it wouldn't use those words. It seems that you are just taking your understanding of what you believe and shoving it into the text when it seems to just say plain language on what it means.

[@soundlycreative]

So are you saying you believe in Calvinism?

[@jrmitchell12]

@@soundlycreative I feel it better to not make labels, because it pegs you into corner of having to agree with "your side" on topics and people tend to stop listening from the "other side" when you say you are on the opposite side. It should just be a reasoning from the text of scripture, which is what I tried to do above when discussing the flaws in the video.

[@soundlycreative]

@@jrmitchell12 interesting. I’ll have to now re-read your points and consider them vs the presentation.

[@jeffjazzy2106]

Why do the scriptures use the words ordained and appointed to be saved. APPOINTED AND ORDAINED..CHOSEN NOT ALL ARE CHOSEN.

[@billyr9162]

"God has no choice but to go in that direction" he said. So this guy believes in determinism too. Man is the determiner. God is forced to do what man forces him to do. That makes God a puppet of man. Man has free choice. God doesn't. That was his conclusion. That was his message.

[@mjsabie8517]

Wow. So you listen to this whole sermon and pull that line out and say it is what the entire point is the sermon was??? You really had to do some mental gymnastics to find something bad to say about the message… well done I guess

[@billyr9162]

@mjsabie8517 The entire point of every free will worshipper is that man has a free will, and God is subject to what the free will man decides.

[@KimLongsine]

I won't listen to a teacher that wears a dirty t-shirt on stage. Remember the important sacred position your placed in. Your standing on a stage representing Christ.

[@fredmiller6166]

Ad hominem... Can't deal with the argument?, so you attack his garb. Got it.

[@Richard_Rz]

Excellent tteaching! I'm heartened to see Calvinism exposed for its evil ways. It is incredibly dangerous abd appeals to narcissists, they LOVE it.

[@classicjukebox]

People. Read these first verses in Malachi....Does this look like a God that loves everyone equally? This is the God of the Bible.... Malachi 1 King James Version (KJV) 1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi. 2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever.

[@inTruthbyGrace]

you point to Malachi before the cross? you don't think that Jesus laying down His life for His enemies on the cross is sufficient evidence huh? (Act 17:31) sorry you can't see the love of God.

[@paulthomson8798]

Esau forgave Jacob and learned to trust God and God's choice of Jacob as the Messiah bearer. God would bless any person or nation that blessed Jacob as the brarer of the world's coming Saviour. And Esau walked in that blessing. But Esau's descendants, Edom, would not and sought to destroy Israel, their and the world's hope of redemption. Therefore God disciplined Esau as promised "I will bless those who bless you and I will curse those who curse you". Instesd of turning back to God with faith and reconciling with Jacob, Edom vowed to regroup and continue in their unbelief and rebellion. Had they turned, God would have forgiven them and changed their destiny. But they refused and reaped the consequences of their stubbornness.

[@Over-for-now]

Thank God He chose me even as a small child. As a dead person l would end in hell because our free choice takes us to a cult and satanic deception

[@inTruthbyGrace]

wow you *_are_* so special!!! How wonderful that God loves Jacob and *_YOU_* and hated Esau and everyone else.... I personally am glad that I am chosen *_in CHRIST_* bc Jesus came to save *_sinners_* and I know for sure that I am one of those... but congratulations on discovering how super-duper special you are!

[@Over-for-now]

@@inTruthbyGrace thanks so much --- you actually agree with the Saviour about my position in HIM. I believe what HE says about me as the TRAVAIL of HIS soul. HE suffered greatly for my sins upon HIMSELF

[@inTruthbyGrace]

@@Over-for-now no, you clearly do not... your comment point blank says God choose *_YOU_* .... you mentioned nothing, absolutely *_NOTHING_* about Jesus at all nor about God's having chosen you in Jesus... that is the problem with Calvinism... Jesus is an after thought bc you imagine and you speak that God chose you ....it is all about YOU! "a good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

[@Over-for-now]

@@inTruthbyGrace ---You haven't read where Jesus says He will not lose any THAT the FATHER GAVE HIM?? I'm a gift from the Father to the Lord Jesus Christ

[@Over-for-now]

@@inTruthbyGrace I know it offends you deeply THAT lam simply trusting in the FINISHED work the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished for me. Iam not a calvinist and don't care about what man says. GOD receives ALL the GLORY and HE WILL NOT share HIS GLORY with another You CAN have THAT assurance also

[@billyr9162]

If God looks like the cross and is all loving then then the verses that say God sends people to hell can't be right. If I have to interpret every verse and light of God looks like the cross then there's no way God sending anyone to hell. All those verses must say something different. The devil must have created hell and it must be the devil sending them there against God's will because God wills that all men be saved.

[@shepherd7744]

God sends no one to hell, matter of fact the scripture teaches us God had to enlarge it, scripture says it is His desire that ALL come to the knowledge of the truth, YOU send yourself to hell by refusing to submit and put your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Your absolute lack of any understanding of scripture is blatantly obvious to anyone who has even a beginner type of knowledge of scripture. You'd rather spew your rhetoric to make yourself feel justified before a Holy God, when you know in your heart it is YOU rejecting Him, NOT Him rejecting you!! And believe it or not I say these truths with an absolute desire that you receive it and repent of your thoughts and ways, turn to God that you may be saved

[@billyr9162]

@shepherd7744 God made hell so you could send yourself there. How nice of him.

[@billyr9162]

@shepherd7744 how are you gong to let yourself in hell if Jesus has the key? Revelation 1:18 [18]I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

[@shepherd7744]

@billyr9162 seriously, the fact that He is the creator and holds the keys to the very creation, matter of fact He holds everything together by the word of His power, your going to read that into it, that Christ is just throwing people into hell. I'm amazed at the total lack of understanding, if you end up in hell, it is 100% your on fault, Christ died for ALL, anyone could turn from their wicked ways, and submit to Him, most will not, they would rather choose to obey their own flesh than submit to a Holy Savior

[@billyr9162]

@shepherd7744 How much do you love yourself? God doesn't love everyone. Malachi 1:3 [3]And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

[@billyr9162]

The devil said the same thing this guy said to Eve. It doesn't really mean what it seems to say. You have to look at it this way or that way and then you'll know what it really means.

[@truthseeker5698]

What does it say Billy boy? Remember to keep reading through Chapter 11. Sola de Romans 9 is bankrupt bro.

[@billyr9162]

@truthseeker5698 Now you're saying to me what the devil says mister lie seeker. You say Romans nine doesn't really mean what it says. AND What the devil said to eve was in genesis. MR LIESEEKER

[@truthseeker5698]

@@billyr9162 You’re deceived Billy Boy. Calvinism reformed theology straight from the satan. Choose better if you’re willing.

[@jeffjazzy2106]

You sound like flowers.

[@jeffjazzy2106]

No, you are wrong. im sorry.

[@billyr9162]

So who is the vessel of wrath *FITTED* for destruction? He started with that verse but never answered it. If God looks like the cross why would anybody be fitted for destruction destruction even if they wanted to and they had free will? If God were truly loving everybody would receive grace whether they wanted it or not. Doesn't every parent save their child even though they disobey?

[@TheRomans9Guy]

“So who is the vessel of wrath FITTED for destruction?” I can answer that for you. No one. There are no vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. You’re just misreading the author’s intent of that verse. Look at it again, Paul is asking “what if…?” because it’s not a reality. What IF God did this… wouldn’t that be terrible? This is what you Jews believe, God created some vessels for for destruction, and you think it’s the Gentiles, but based on how things are going with you rejecting the Messiah, then wouldn’t you actually be the ones acting like the vessels fitted for destruction? If that were true? Aren’t you glad now that you’re wrong, and God actually loves all people and hasn’t fitted any vessels for destruction? There are no vessels of wrath, good news!

[@billyr9162]

@@TheRomans9Guy It's called a rhetorical question.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

@@billyr9162 technically no, it’s a hypothetical question

[@billyr9162]

@@TheRomans9Guy No it's a rhetorical question

[@billyr9162]

@The Romans 9 Guy - Bob Leitzel He summarizes it in verse 25 Is quoting Hosea... I will call not my not the people of me, the peopleof me and the ones not having been loved, Having been loved.

[@richardhislop9928]

Now I see just how evil, biased, rude, entitled, narcissistic and commandeering, humans really are, out of all of Yahweh's creations. There are myriads of angels, animals, insects, internal and external bacterial organisms, that He created, out of the nothing, and all for His pleasure.... To display His absolute power.... As an extension of His goodness, He made us, man. And we've managed since then, to manifest the worst transgressions imaginable.... This alone should humble and embarrass us : Yet with smiles on our faces, careful soft words, and doctrinal disguises : in sinful, narcissistic fashion, we critique His selective mercy ; unthankfully overlooking the fact, that out of all His creatures, we were the only ones He was even willing to brutally kill His son for.... "Way to go Arminians".. "Way to go.".. While reformed believers accept the selective mercy of Yahweh on humble knee, Arminians display the attitude of ungrateful, humanist bastards... "Who art thou O man?" Do you not understand the great chasm between you and Yahweh?... How dare you? Right now, there are millions of angels, in full chorus, surrounding the throne of THE GREAT GOD, YAHWEH YESHUA ELOHIM, singing His praises, in sincerity, with all their might.... " HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, IS THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, WHO DOES WHATSOEVER HE WILLS IN THE ARMIES OF HEAVEN, AND AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH : AND NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND OR SAY UNTO HIM, WHAT DOEST THOU.".... They understand fully well that He shows no mercy to their angelic brothers, for their sins in rebelling against Him ; even though He grants mercy to some humans, for theirs... and they praise Him and uplift Him.. They praise His sovereign power, His love, His holiness..... and are not rude and entitled as a group to demand that mercy must be shown to all ; and that their angelic brothers should be pardoned as well.... "So who art thou O man?".. Really?... In your dark, wicked heart, you desire so much control over your creator, that you do the work of your father Lucifer, the ingrate?... You judge Yahweh for being selective in mercy, toward your sinful brethren? .. and you refuse to worship Him, as He is, righteous and sovereign..... So you invent a humanist doctrine, that is based on experiencing a comfort level that you feel is safe to approve THE ALMIGHTY... You arduously and deliberately scrutinize and manipulate the clear texts and contexts of scripture, to appease your need for control, over what Yahweh should and shouldn't do, regarding His mercy towards all ; giving Him no freedom?... Your entire Arminian doctrine is a clever disguise for what the wicked heart really desires ; to usurp the sovereignty of Yahweh... There is a special place in hell for those with this entitled, blasphemous attitude... especially when we have the example of the angels, before us, who humble themselves before His power.... And also Yeshua, our savior ; who laid down his life, ACCEPTING Yahweh's sovereign decision to glorify Himself, and brutally sacrifice Him, for many.... Yahweh's throne has no room around it, for those who won't worship Him with gratitude and glorify His sovereignty... "O evil man." Yahweh mercies whom He wills...

[@inTruthbyGrace]

funny... I thought God made us in His image and that He loves us.

[@richardhislop9928]

@inTruthbyGrace Gird up your loins like a man.. The image of God is DOMINION.. "Let us make man in Our Image.".. "Let him have DOMINION over the fish of the sea," fowls of the air, and so on.. Man was made the sovereign ruler over the creatures on the earth, to do whatsoever he wills with them ; as IMAGED by the DOMINION of the SOVEREIGN RULER over all things, SUPREMELY ; in Heaven and Earth.. When man asserts his will to harvest life stock, for instance, SOVEREIGNLY ; he is acting as The Divine.. He pardons whomsoever he wills (Sorry Thanksgiving turkeys).. In the same manner Yahweh loves whomever He loves.. When Moses asked to see all of Yahweh's "Goodness" ; Yahweh then keenly defined His Goodness, as Sovereign DOMINION. "I WILL SHOW MERCY UNTO WHOM I WILL, AND COMPASSION UNTO WHOM I WILL. ".. Without flinching, Yahweh iterated, that His Love and Goodness is His Sovereignty.. Put on your big boy pants, therefore.. This Freedom of DOMINION that God exerts over all, IS HIS LOVE.. Some import "love" texts from Galatians, to soften the blow ; but in Genesis, the context of "image" is DOMINION.. Gird up your loins!! Love God by fearing Him.. Beg for Divine Mercy, and pray that He is Gracious to you.. None have leverage..