Recent Great Lakes Biplane Training Accidents.

Recent Great Lakes Biplane Training Accidents.
The dangers and risk involved in training in conventional gear aircraft.

[@blancolirio]

Good debrief! Thanks Ron.

[@gcorriveau6864]

I enjoy the fun and skills involved in flying 'taildraggers.' Thanks for reminding me. It's been too long since I've been off pavement.

[@practiCalfMRI]

Re complacency during rollout and taxi, I was taught early to fly as if there's a 15 kt breeze blowing, even if the sock is limp. Have the controls appropriate for whatever wind there is, always, for every t/o, landing & taxi. Then you start to do it automatically and when there's a breeze for real, no biggie. Similarly, for taxiing I was taught to make those shallow S turns to check ahead any time I was moving more than about six plane lengths. Even if you know for a fact it's clear ahead, there's really little downside to getting your rudder feet going.

[@johnlucas2037]

Thanks for sharing. I love my little Murphy biplane.

[@michaelmelugin7225]

Saw my 1st Great Lakes at OshKosh in about '74. My dad who had instructed for the Air Force (T-6, T-28, T-34, T-37) was quite taken with it. In fact it's the only airplane he ever indicated a desire to own. So after I retired from flying helicopters for the Army I bought one. A very enjoyable and relatively easy biplane to fly.

[@jeffreybrunken556]

Another good one. My tailwheel time is also divided between monoplanes and biplanes. One thing I believe to be true but have never heard discussed or described to any helpful degree is that biplanes generally lose inertia more quickly than monoplanes because of their greater drag. I imagine that adds to the hazard of getting low and slow in a biplane. Combined with a lack of a stall warning, I wonder if that final “bite” doesn’t happen pretty abruptly to the unwary. As an embarrassing aside: my only taildragger ground loop occurred while giving dual in a 65hp J-3. I have no one to blame but myself. As you say, there comes a time for the instructor to intervene and that time is not some time after it was time for the instructor to intervene. 🤣 Nothing was damaged but my pride. Having it all play out in seeming slow motion (is there any other speed of motion in a J3) at a busy GA airport with lots of fellow pilots in the audience didn’t help. Apart from reinforcing to me that vigilance is always necessary, I also got a good lesson in the severe limitations of drum brakes.

[@brianmee5398]

I did my first solo and about half my private pilot training in a Citabria flying out of Benton airport N of Wichita. Enjoyed wheel landings. There were always a few old hands on the porch to judge landings. Never had a ground loop but did take off heading west on the N-S runway once after a big crosswind gust.

[@ronrogers]

I would take my students up to Benton. Gary Steele there when you were there?

[@johnlucas2037]

I also did my training and solo in a Citabria

[@rogerrees9845]

Very good presentation thank you.... Seems to me you have to be on your toes to fly it.... Roger... Pembrokeshire

[@whathasxgottodowithit3919.]

You are so right, when they start to bounce it doesn't usually get better, just go round

[@locustvalleystring]

Great Stuff. I have a few hours in a Great Lakes with some aerobatics. Lots of fun. (I know you know this, but you stated that the critical angle of attack changes with the g-load. It remains constant, but the angle of attack does change and can exceed the critical angle of attack with increasing g-load.)

[@ronrogers]

Good ear and yes, I got that wrong. My mind told me that wasn't quite right but mouth didn't listen. I figured someone would correct me so I could see who was really paying attention. That is my story and I'm sticking to it!🤣🤣🤣

[@TheJustinJ]

The critical angle (Stall AoA) dose change for other reasons. Reynolds number, especially near the low end of the usable speed range. And abrupt pitching motions can maintain attached flow well beyond the normal critical angle. This phenomenon is especially acute for aerobatic aircraft having light pitch forces. (Resulting in lower Va maneuvering speed than would be expected based on the math). And also helicopter rotors, as they constantly vary their pitch angle as they rotate toward and away from the direction of flight.

[@davidbaldwin1591]

I saw a Waco in a local museum, with enclosed cabin. I like the style so much. My dream would be a modern version I could use.

[@robertlafnear7034]

I got a Great ride on a Saturday morning at my flight school ( Compton , Calif. ) back in 1980 when the flight school owner opened the hanger and there stood a brand new Great Lakes just flown from the factory ,....... little did the Plane's owner know we had the keys 🤫....and ......I've never had a finer ride , inverted several times in the practice area. That was just so cool for a low time student.

[@leeroyholloway4277]

Jet jockeys love those wheel landings. I don't think one is any harder than the other, it's just a matter of being proficient and current. Personally I don't like bleeding off the extra speed on the roll out.

[@michaelbooher339]

Always great content, longtime A&P here.

[@aviatortrucker6285]

Hey Ron, can you do a video on the aspect of the bi-wing. I noticed one is a straight wing and the other looks like it’s somewhat swept back? Why is the upper wing more forward than the lower wing and is that normal on all bi-wing aircraft? I do see some have longer wings up top, then at bottom.

[@ronrogers]

Thanks for the suggestion. Will work on it.

[@DanasWings]

@aviatortrucker6285 Sweeping the upper wing lets the center section be farther forward making it easier to get in and out of the front cockpit, without having the entire wing too far forward. Some biplanes do it this way, some have straight wings.

[@paulstambaugh4847]

It was a design mod many years ago to address the spin characteristics

[@johnlucas2037]

Also I believe most but not all biplanes have the lower wing at a higher angle of incidence so that it stalls before the upper wing?

[@DanasWings]

@@johnlucas2037 Just the opposite in most cases. You want forward wing to stall first so the aircraft tends to pitch down, breaking the stall. For a conventional positive stagger design the top wing is the forward wing; on a negative stagger biplane like the Beech Staggerwing then yes, you want the lower wing to stall first.

[@practiCalfMRI]

On your grass landing it looked like you achieved a tail low wheel landing, getting the infamous "jounce" from the tailwheel as a reward. Tail low wheel landings are nice once you're current and comfortable, but hard to do well any time! I would have thought the instructor would either have had you level out with a little power and fly a few feet to let a flat attitude wheel landing happen all in good time, or be slightly higher on short final with power at idle and set up for a nice three pointer. So it seems like a slightly longer final would have let you set up for one or the other and given you several more seconds to get either your wheel landing or 3-pointer set up for the A/S and attitude you really want rather than being surprised by the ground's arrival. Anyway, thanks for this. Makes me itchy to get back in a Lakes!

[@ronrogers]

I used to do a lot of tailwheel instruction and I felt these guys did not analyze my flying as much as I used to do for students. I felt more like I was checking myself out with a safety pilot.

[@InvertedFlight]

23k hours can be a little intimidating. @@ronrogers

[@ronrogers]

I seldom mention my total time just because of that.

[@practiCalfMRI]

@@ronrogers :-) Age difference can do the same thing.

[@tenlittleindians]

I heard many Great Lakes stories during my childhood and they were all fascinating. My grandfather's version was black and orange with a Menasco turning a twin blade. The cowl had a straight profile from cockpit to the nose and no tail wheel; just a landing skid. The airport my grandfather built in Dyersville was about as new as his Great Lakes at the time. They said Dyersville had a nicer airport and strip than Dubuque did at that time. I never did ask him how they mowed grass strips back then but I can't imagine they used push mowers. Runways were a new thing and the 4 lane Interstates we have today didn't exist so they probably didn't have large mowers yet. My guess is they planted a different type of grass that could be fed to livestock and the local farmers harvested it to feed to farm animals or horses. All his instructor stories had him in the back seat with the student in the front seat. I wonder when they changed that in the Great Lakes?

[@ronrogers]

As far as I know, the single pilot position has always been the rear seat. Farther aft CG for aerobatics. I flew into DBQ in a Luscomb when it was a very basic airport. Good comment about cutting the grass. Sounds like he had a very early/original GL.

[@R760-E2]

A Menasco Lakes! Would be a treasure today! Tex Rankin ran a Menasco on one of his.

[@practiCalfMRI]

3-bladed prop on the prototype? Do you know why they went with the 2-bladed MT in the product?

[@ronrogers]

The 3 bladed prop is a $8K option and not really necessary, in my opinion. It gives you better takeoff and climb performance (which is why I have 3 blades on my 310) but for this aircraft, with such good performance anyway, I did not feel it was necessary.

[@paulstambaugh4847]

Porpoising in this case is due to: - Being slightly fast for a fulk stall landing - Not enough (sticking) in the wheel landing

[@aviatortrucker6285]

The scariest thing that I ever remember during my tail, dragger training days was not so much ground looping, which, thank God I never did, but getting a prop strike when you had to do a main wheel landing. The site picture just looked like you were tipping, the nose, too far forward, and, looking to the sides to match your wingtip to the horizon was nerve-racking because you take your eyes off the centerline. My instructor told me it took a lot more nose down attitude to strike that prop but it just didn’t feel comfortable. How do you handle that situation? I could only imagine how those pilots felt in the P 51 mustang with that super big four blade monster turning in front.

[@ronrogers]

Yes, at first I tended to put the nose too much down. I later learned a better site picture and that corrected the issue.

[@Sreybk]

Ron, I was curious to see where your place is relative to the airfield you fly out of. I read those letters of accommodation you wrote to your crew that handled the suspicious package I Googled Earthed your address and it's a nice neighborhood but I noticed that everyone on that lake has their garage in front of their houses. Is that because of a lack of space or a homeowner's association thing? Sometimes HAs have weird rules. I can't imagine owning as many rentals as you do/did. That's a pretty biplane. My father has a 1966 Austin-Healey 3000 that has almost the exactly same colors.

[@ronrogers]

For a lake house, the lake is the front yard and the garage is in the rear on the road side. I will never live in a HOA and we don't have any around our lake.

[@Sreybk]

@@ronrogers I didn't think of that. I have an older friend who flew Harriers in the Marines and retired as a FedEx captain. He has a house on the Neuse River in eastern North Carolina. When Hurricane Florence hit us his backyard (and his pool) fell in the river. He eventually rebuilt it but had to spend even more money on a new seawall. There is a private beach and after the storm, it was littered with wood, flotsam, seawall frames and piles of sand. It was horrible and expensive how much that neighborhood had to shuck out to get it back to normal.

[@Sreybk]

@@ronrogers No kidding. My dad didn't move because he has his classic cars in a garage that some HOA wouldn't be down with - a lot of times they won't let you build that kind of stuff. He also has a greenhouse he engineered and built himself. Again, an HOA would probably veto it.

[@ronrogers]

Some people think all the Nazis went to South America. Au contraire! They are in HOAs!

[@Sreybk]

@@ronrogers Hah.

[@fitzroyfastnet]

Good talk, but I think you misspoke, critical angle of attack doesn't change with speed.

[@ronrogers]

You are absolutely right, I screwed that up!

[@stay_at_home_astronaut]

I always land at 80mph, in a cloud of rubber smoke, on the mains. (Much to my dad's chagrin.) ;-)

[@whaledriver5457]

That's not Coldwater airport. That is Marshall MI (KRMY)

[@ronrogers]

Well, at least someone is paying attention. Obviously my mistake!

[@whaledriver5457]

@@ronrogers We fly there in my Bonanza often for the $100 hamburger. I enjoy your stories from the line at United. :)

[@parrotraiser6541]

Experienced transport pilots can be a menace in small aeroplanes. They're used to things happening at different heights above the ground and different speeds. 23,000 hrs sitting straight and level in a big tube aren't much help when a taildragger gets squirrelly. They're actually much happier on grass. because there's drag on the tailwheel or skid that acts like the tail on a kite, tending to pull it straight. Plus there's usually a little more opportunity to point the machine directly into the wind, unlike a narrow hard strip.

[@ronrogers]

Not all straight and level. About 3,000 hours prop, some glider towing, 800 hours conventional gear in 10+ different aircraft , 2 multi engine tail dragger, 1,500 fighter time, couple hundred hours flight test, need to add up supersonic time. Not all straight and level.

[@parrotraiser6541]

@@ronrogers I've seen enough of your videos to know thatI was being a bit unfair to you, but I've known of experienced airliner drivers do horrible things in smaller machines. E.g. 747 pilots flaring a light aircraft at their usual cockpit height. (50'or so). Fighter jockeys are notoriously dead from the waist down.

[@ronrogers]

Your observations are correct!

[@davidlewis2626]

Likewise, airline pilots.

[@marttimattila9561]

My Instructors daugter has a Great Legs. Wife too.

[@ronrogers]

🤣🤣🤣

[@aviatortrucker6285]

So generally birds do not fly upside down. If you do actually ever see one you better get it on video you’ll be the first to record one in actual inbirded flight!

[@ronrogers]

I hear ducks can get disoriented in clouds and spin out of the bottom. So if one got into an inverted spin.......

[@aviatortrucker6285]

@@ronrogers I really would like to go to an aerobic school but I know if I do I will soon be upside down in my payments. But seriously, do you know if one can take aerobic training and be certified on basic med, or do I need to re-obtain a third class medical?

[@ronrogers]

I don't think there is any medical requirement to take any sort of training. I have demonstrated aerobatics to non pilots and even had them fly maneuvers. Don't think you need a medical to learn, just to act as PIC etc.@@aviatortrucker6285

[@TheJustinJ]

There is a technique that helps with wheel-landings. (I'm terrible at perfect wheel landings, this helps a lot). Land with one wing slightly lower than the other. Wings banked Into the crosswind, no matter how slight the wind of course. Landing one wheel first allows those firmer touch downs to dissipate energy, without pitching up and bouncing. A "bounce" in a tailwheel airplane is often due to the downward momentum of the tail continuing downward after main wheels contact. This downward tail motion results in a pitch-up in angle of attack. This increases lift abruptly. Causing the aircraft to takeoff again, with idle power. Since whee landings happen at a lower angle of attack, therefore lower lift coefficient, there is plenty of speed remaining and lift available to launch back into the air momentarily due to a pitch-up. By landing one side first, any excess downward momentum results in more of of rolling motion than pitching motion. This is because Your main landing gear is farther apart (has more leverage) in the lateral direction the longitudinal. Because the CG is often closer to the landing gear in the fore and aft direction, than distance to the landing gear in the lateral direction. Even if not, it still allows half of the downward momentum energy to be dissipated laterally in roll. (wings act to dampen this roll thru inertia and aerodynamic roll-damping).

[@R760-E2]

I would rather have a NDH Enid built airplane.

[@ronrogers]

I was actually in USAF pilot training out at Vance (Enid) when they were being produced there.

[@R760-E2]

I know I sound like I'm knocking the Battle Creek/Waco/Lakes outfit. I used to go to Enid to fetch airplanes for a dealer in FL at which I worked in the shop and did some flying for them too. A number of checkouts/deliveries prior to the reg. requiring a CFI write-off for conventional gear. Didn't have a CFI then anyway. We were instrumental in getting them to make the front top N-strut fittings adjustable, and the Cabane struts too. They weren't coming out of the jigs correct. I followed that airplane, got an old timer that had taught me fabric hooked up in the resurrection of it in GA, in which I'd hoped to get involved. Flew one for Bruce Moore at S&F when he tried to get it going again in NH. The Lakes was my first love after a Stearman. That louver on the right side of the cowling? Air OUT for a secondary oil cooler? Did some of those as field mods. Enjoy your Lakes, nice weather soon ! EC@@ronrogers

[@ronrogers]

Yes it is, air out from an oil cooler. Thanks for your interesting history!