History of the Big Four - London and North Eastern Railway

[@edwardburek1717]

If I may be permitted to wax lyrical about the influence of the Big Four: - The LMS had the connections and the hotels - The GWR had the romance of steam and the Brunel touch - The Southern had electric traction and a raunchy reputation - The LNER had the design flair and the Flying Scotsman This was an enjoyable series, meticulously researched as always.

[@gerogyzurkov2259]

LMS: Mostly some of the best mixed route traffic designs. Black Five and 8F. A long with some of the best management. GWR: Some of the most rugged designs. Panniers. Also efficient designs. Kings. SR: Did a lot of electric work that the foundation for our electric network. Late SR had the Bullieds which are great design. Schools also. LNER: Some of the best marketing. Some of the best express services. Along with express Locomotives. A4 and A3.

[@Samstrainsofficially]

Non mention of the railway air service, y'know the air transport entity owned by all 4

[@edwardburek1717]

@@Samstrainsofficially I now have a mental image of an A4 Pacific class locomotive with wings, flaps and ailerons. Brings new meaning to the name "Flying Scotsman"...

[@Samstrainsofficially]

@@edwardburek1717 bothers me greatly that no video I've ever seen posted about the fancy express train mentions one really simple and important thing. How much was a ticket? We mention the loco, the hair dresser on board, the bar, the seating arrangements, the engineers, the time each took to reach destination. We never say and this is what it cost to use this service for the cheapest seat for a history of a passenger train rarely is the passenger mentioned other than in amenities on offer. The experience of the driver gets more air time. Imagine today if I said well yes but the Pacers did have a very comfortable seat for the driver, and doors, and windows... no mention of the passenger 🤣

[@roderickmain9697]

The London and Nearly Everywhere Railway. Its fascinating to find that people are building new locomotives to Gresley's design. Although one might suspect with modern engineering capabilities, they should be able to further maximise the power and performance. The A1 Tornado ("in service"), the P2 Prince of Wales (coming soon) and others on the cards. Definitely an Iconic line to this day.

[@therathergoodengineer9285]

With Two legendary locomotives being built for two legendary CMEs being Sir Nigel Gresley and Arthur Peppercorn, It breathes fresh air into the now dirty, overused, expensive, unprofitable and slow Railways in modern-day Britain, which is only a shadow of its former self. It seems though that with many successful state owned Railways coming into the 2020s and 2030s like the LNER and GWR the golden era of rail travel in the 21st Century could be coming. Its amazing to think about how exciting it must have been for the travelling public in the 20s and 30s before the Second World War.

[@johnward374]

​@@therathergoodengineer9285All to be using imported coal when the last mine is closed down by the Welsh Government.

[@therathergoodengineer9285]

wait, but boris just opened a new mine@@johnward374

[@bittern4464]

Scotsman's run was the first authenticated 100mph, the 108mph run was A3 2750 Papyrus, the 2nd trial run in the A4 development.

[@abloogywoogywoo]

I was sad to learn Silver Link was never preserved even though she was a record holder for a time. Her among her sisters and Mallard would've been a beautiful sight and testament to those who built her.

[@Shark30006]

I agree

[@Shark30006]

Silver Link, Quicksilver, Silver King, Silver Fox, Empire of India, Commonwealth of Australia and Dominion of New Zealand should have been preserved as part of the Great Gathering.

[@Shark30006]

There would have been 13 A4s in preservation.

[@Shark30006]

It’s ashamed that Papyrus didn’t make it into preservation after being withdrawn from service.

[@mnogoldfish]

Another excellent video. A fanatic series, worthy of a TV series. Thanks for an exceptional educational set of films of the railways of the UK.

[@Nivshin53]

There is a misconception that the GCR (London Extension) or "GCML" was designed and constructed to incorporate the "European" or more accurately named "Berne Loading Gauge". The GCML design was completed in 1894 and when construction began. The Berne Gauge was not agreed and signed off in Europe until 1912. At 9ft 3in wide and 13ft 4in high the GCML gauge was one of the larger British gauges, but still very small compared to the Berne gauge, which was 14ft high and 10ft 2in wide.

[@duncancurtis5108]

Not so poorly represented in preservation with 🌪 Tornado and Scotsman pounding the rails but so many fine engines slipped into extinction.

[@spankflaps1365]

See my comment above, surviving LNER engines are only 1/10 of the total preserved.

[@macjim]

Tornado is not an LNER loco, it may based on the design of an LNER class but it’s a new build built long after the LNER died… nor is it a ‘preserved’ loco…

[@WestRail642fan]

the Eastern Region managers weren't exactly known for preservation, look at Billy Butlin, he wanted to save Silver Link, but the Eastern Region were trying to charge him for more than the loco's actual worth at the time

[@duncancurtis5108]

Hush Hush became W1 and disappeared at Doncaster in 1959 for guzzling too much coal. 😮

[@joshslater2426]

Most LNER locos are the only survivor of their class. A lot of their constituents got a bit short changed, especially the Great Central and Hull & Barnsley.

[@joshslater2426]

The LNER, my favourite of the Big Four. It boasted so many of the best locomotives and innovative designs. I love the Great Eastern, Great Central, Great Northern and North Eastern railways, and all their finest engines all merged together in one massive group. Then there’s Gresley and his many great revolutionary designs: the A1s/A2s, the A4s, the V2s and even the Hush Hush. Not to mention how well the LNER did with preserving a variety of locos and making sure they were cared for.

[@dakshanbalaramesh]

I think you meant A3s, the LNER A2s were actually a Vincent Raven design

[@Dreggman592]

Your videos are just amazing! I found your channel just recently and iv gotta say I hope to see more from you

[@forrestrobin2712]

How did I miss this episode ? Brilliant as always Mr MacVeigh. Thankyou.

[@kenmorris100]

Thanks for this excellent series about the Big Four. There is a paradox that the smallest of the four The Southern were the most Innovative with the early adoption of electric traction albeit based on third rail rather than the pioneering LB&SC's overhead wires. As the video mentioned had raven had his way the NER could have had lead the way in the UK for mainline electric traction. The sight and sound of a streak of course was vey special to us schoolboy spotters in the 50s and 60s.

[@DKS225]

There was another Named train i could mention The Clansman which in the early 80's became The Highland Chieftain from London to Inverness. In summary Rory this if ever there was a Platinum Cake then this is that cake in terms of presentation alone. Though what's weird is with Mallard after she broke the world speed record for steam she broke down just outside of Peterborough and had to be towed into the station where the ceremony was held.

[@macjim]

Ruairigh, not Rory…

[@johnkeepin7527]

They were not really designed to cope with operating at that speed, and it was a “white metal bearing” that failed due to overheating.

[@gerogyzurkov2259]

​@@johnkeepin7527overheating was cause it was meant to stop the loco from destroyed.

[@rwm2986]

Thank you for a most interesting series.

[@michellebell5092]

Another well researched and well presented history. Thanks RM.

[@Cartoonman154]

I saw the last A4s in York when they were brought together. Fantastic looking locos.

[@Shark30006]

That’s cool

[@My02sgd]

Love the side photo of these Pacifics.....

[@WestRail642fan]

15:30 The Silver Jubilee sets never ran with a beaver tail observation coach, that was the later Coronation set. Not sure about the West Riding Limited set thou, the WRL and Coronation used the same base coach sets of 4x articulated twin sets

[@williamwaynflete6336]

Bravo! Another superb history/documentary!

[@drstevenrey]

I really love this video and the story it tells. There are not many stories from history that contain more 'well, duh' moments.

[@leorudham62]

My dad used to use the LNER service from London and Downham Market. He referred to it as the Late and Never Early Railway.

[@georgem1000]

Thoroughly enjoyed this series about the big 4. Thanks once again for some excellent documentaries.

[@cedriclynch]

The Inter-City 225 trains were designed to run at 140mph =about 225km/h hence their name, but this was dependent on track improvements that were never done. The trains were limited to 125mph in normal service.

[@FlyingMontyExpress]

Finally the best of the big four

[@davidcrook5511]

Fancy concluding a video on the LNER with a clip filmed at Cockwood!!! Yet another great documentary; thanks! HAVEN'T SEEN THE LMS ONE YET!!! 😲

[@ChadwickModelRailway]

Nice work RM.

[@lukegreen5341]

0:33 Happy 100th Birthday LNER The London And North Eastern Railway. 1923 - 2023. 100 Years. X

[@benGBRf]

Fantastic series on the big four. Really enjoyable and well researched 👍🏻

[@BorisLu]

Awesome video!

[@davidpeters6536]

The last of the four and the one I have traveled on the most by far. A great documentary as usual by Mr MacVeigh full of interesting statistics and facts. Gresley's A4s were beautiful and fast but let's not forget LM&S had some good lookers too with the Stanier's Coronation Class streamliners (as seen in part 3).

[@Kimmy-pw8tm]

The Midnight Flyer in 1922, the Loco that pulled that great train disaster was saved. Being, I believe the 'Flying Scotsman's' sister. The story of this disaster is wonderful presented - p

[@lukegreen5341]

0:07 This LNER Thompson B1 Mayflower Is A Bit Like Henry The Green Engine From Thomas The Tank Engine And Friends The Original Series In 1984. Old School Times Man. Thanks Mate. X❤

[@rubusroo68]

glad I watched until the very end!

[@johndaniels4623]

Great video as always, as a kid I had no idea about anything related to UK trains. But I could tell you what a flying Scotsman (locomotive) was and that Gordon (from the railway series and Thomas and friends show) was very similar.

[@davidcrook5511]

Gordon and the Flying Scotsman were both A3s according to "Enterprising Engines" (1968). Gordon was upset because all the other A3s had been scrapped, so the Fat Controller persuaded Flying Scotsman's owner to let him visit the Isle of Sodor!! (I expect you know all this..)

[@NJTCOMET]

The A4 destroyed during the Blitz has an interesting story. Originally that engine was named Gadwall, but was then renamed Sir Ralph Wedgewood. After the Gadwall/Sir Ralph was destroyed, another A4, Herring Gull, was selected to become the new Sir Ralph.

[@Shark30006]

It’s ashamed that the original Sir Ralph Wedgwood formerly known as Gadwall never made it into BR days.

[@rachelcarre9468]

Thank you! 🙌🙌🙌

[@Clivestravelandtrains]

I'm proud to have worked at British Rail Eastern Region HQ from 1972 to 1987 and the culture of constant improvement without the "big bang" always seemed to be there, in those days. It was a great place to work.

[@Tom-Lahaye]

There even had been considered to close the whole West Highland Route with the Mallaig extension, but luckily this never happened, still enabling us to enjoy this scenic route, even still partly on a steam train.

[@JamesMezzatrainboy]

Fantastic stuff.

[@RailwaysOfBritain]

I would like to clarify a small historical detail regarding the speed records. While it's true that 4472 Flying Scotsman was the first locomotive to officially reach 100mph, the record of 108mph was actually achieved by 2750 Papyrus. This achievement made 2750 Papyrus the fastest non-streamlined locomotive in the world. Nonetheless, great work on the documentary overall!

[@chrisderby986]

The GCR's London Extension was NOT built to a 'European loading gauge', it was built to the same loading gauge as the rest of the MS&LR system,...

[@Andrewjg_89]

Is this about the old LNER that once dominated the East Coast Main Line with their steam engines before massive upgrade on the ECML. Including widening the ECML extending to other cities and connecting other lines, electrification and new rolling stocks. That the ECML has seen changes. Including the Class 43 HST “Intercity 125”, Class 91 Mk4 “Intercity 225” and the Class 800 and Class 801 Azuma.

[@threepea1151]

Yay another video at midnight!

[@that1niceguy246]

9 o'clock here, cheers!

[@Suprahampton]

8.15am

[@lukegreen5341]

7:25 This LNER Gresley A3 Pacific Steam Locomotive Flying Scotsman Is A Bit Like Gordon The Big Engine From Thomas The Tank Engine And Friends The Original Series In 1984. Thanks Mate. X

[@voidjavelin23]

actually gordon is canonically a Prototype A1 or better known as A0, hence why hes older than scotsman

[@lukegreen5341]

15:28 This LNER Gresley A4 Pacific Steam Locomotive Sliver Link Is A Bit Like Mallard And A Bit Like Flying Scotsman As Well. Thanks Mate. X

[@marrrtin]

I am curious why all the stations on a British monopoly board are ex-LNER Stations. Product placement? I also believe that Vincent Raven should have been made CME and they did his electrification program. Instead they forced him to design a steam Pacific to compete with Gresley's A1, talk about thumb on the scales.

[@stephenpaulsteeden-smith5371]

It’s because the American that came across to get the names for the board game stayed at a hotel near all the locations. If you look on a map you can see roughly where he stayed with his wife.

[@jozg44]

The LNER already had a relationship with Waddingtons (the firm with the UK license for Monopoly), having made LNER-branded playing cards previously. Waddingtons was also based in Leeds (firmly in LNER territory, being a meeting point of the NER and the GNR) and it's likely that when the MD of Waddingtons went to London to pick out places to feature on their version of the board that they went by the LNER . The LNER board's first choice for CME was actually John Robinson of the Great Central. Protocol dictated that Robinson, as the most senior CME of the merged companies, was offered the post, but the board also knew he had a long track record of soundly-designed engines. Away from the glamorous business of loco design, he had done excellent working getting to grips with the rather motley collection of engines he inherited from his predecessors and had greatly improved the administration and operations at the Gorton Works. He oversaw the introduction of new engines and coaching stock for the GCR's fast expresses on the London Extension, some very good fast freight/mixed traffic designs for the crucial Grimsby fish traffic and a series of excellent mineral engines for the GCR's modernised coal-hauling business centred on the new Wath marshalling yard and Immingham docks. Not least the 8K (later LNER O4) which was chosen as the standard goods engine for the British war effort during WW1 and were used again in WW2. You can see why the board would have thought him a suitable candidate. As it happened, Robinson declined the job - citing that, aged 66, he didn't have the energy to take on the challenge of forming and melding the engineering future of an outfit as big and complicated as the LNER. He personally suggested Gresley for the post in his place. It's been suggested that Robinson was aware that Gresley had a much better grip on the latest developments and potential in locomotive engineering than he did - some of Robinson's later designs were not up to his usual standard and show signs of a man trying to stretch essentially Victorian design principles further than they can go. Raven's later steam designs show similar wrinkles, but he did at least see that electric traction was really the future. But the LNER (weighed down by the debt and ongoing losses of the GCR, the precarious finances of the GER and the money pits that was the GNoSR) was never going to pay for widespread electrification like the highly profitable NER might have done. In that situation, I think it's safe to say that the LNER got the right man in Gresley.

[@alphabetaxenonzzzcat]

If only Britain had retained the "Big Four" - imagine how good our railways would be.

[@grahamwhitworth9454]

Great video, but I was expecting a mention of the ironical fact that the London and North Eastern Railway ran to the most westerly station in Great Britain, namely Arisaig on the West Highland line.

[@jackmellor5536]

You used to have a video on the A4s. What happened to it?

[@warrenlehmkuhleii8472]

I would like to know more about the alternatives to nationalisation that the LNER proposed. Maybe an idea for a future video.

[@alan-sk7ky]

16:08 Driver Joe Duddington, Fireman Tommy Bray. There fixed that for you Ruairidh

[@joelightrailway2362]

The LNER is a legend among enthusiasts and to me I really like the commuter services in around London as well the small tender locos. It amazed me to find the fact that each class of loco that is preserved today is just one example apart from three three classes that more than one like the two Y7s & B1s as well the iconic A4 Pacific’s has been preserved. So which engine of the LNER I like to see come back is the J50 tanks which are my personal favourite of all Gresley designs.

[@joelightrailway2362]

Also my favourite childhood places I been on the LNER is Kings Cross station in London as I visited there occasionally with my dad which leaves me with great memories.

[@DaveSCameron]

It truly has a rich and fascinating history and I'm glad to see and hear of so many good people working to keep this alive. #OurHistory

[@macjim]

Sadly, there’s one less A4 on the mainline as number 9 is now stuffed and mounted and is unlikely to be steamed again.

[@joelwatkins]

I think Bittern's in the que for restoration after Blue Peter, so at least Sir Nigel Gresley won't be the only A4 working, but still a bit of a wait

[@TheHylianBatman]

LNER is probably tied with GWR as being my favorite of the Big Four. Saving the best for last, eh?

[@auntbarbara5576]

Thank you Rory, you know you're Aunt Barbara's favourite deary.

[@maverick9530]

17:24 i never knew that a football team got their name from an A4 pacific😂 ngl hotspurs boilers must be very hot indeed

[@Shark30006]

If the original Sir Ralph Wedgwood which was No. 4469, made it into BR days then what will be its BR number? Can it be assumed that the original Sir Ralph Wedgwood’s BR number be 60035?

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

The reason they had so many classes of locomotives is that no 2 constituent companies had exactly the same loafing gauge in height or width. The GER had a height limit of 13ft and and width of 9ft, whilst the H&BR was 13ft 9in in height and 9ft 3in in width.

[@Shark30006]

The new Sir Ralph Wedgwood was formerly known as No. 4466 Herring Gull when it got its name from the original Sir Ralph Wedgwood previously known as Gadwall which was No. 4469

[@DaveSCameron]

When I Saw this title my mind flew straight away to Liverpool, United, Everton and Arsenal... 😂

[@robertwilloughby8050]

What, the B17/6's.....😉

[@jayfielding1333]

As an Antipodean, I would have appreciated some maps. Otherwise, top class.

[@Shark30006]

The rest of the A4s and B17s survived the war but it’s a shame that No. 4469 and No. 925 never made it into BR days

[@itzmespencer]

15:04 It was Papyrus

[@mcjdubpower]

I see, i click like, i watch, my assumption is proven entirely correct. Gud vid 👌👍😃

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

Greasley also streamline the steam passages within the A4 locomotives to reduce losses.

[@Shark30006]

It’s a shame that No. 4469 never made it into BR days

[@Shark30006]

I like the Big Four railway companies in Britain

[@Ozymandi_as]

Ruaridgh surely has some of the longest sentences on KZbin. I can almost hear the repeated semicolons.

[@EmyrDerfel]

There's definitely an em-dash or seven in there too.

[@NarodowyPolski1864]

Ranking the Big Four. LNER 10/10 because Gresley, Flying Scotsman,A4's,A3's,P2's GWR 10/10 because panniers and most of there steam locomotives nor being scrapped LMS 10/10 because the Black 5's,jintys,pugs and the corenation class. Southern 7/10 because the smallest,E2's,moslty being more of a commure rail rather than a railway and The Bullied Leader.

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

How does a varnish teak coach match an apple green locomotive? Anyway not all LNER coaches were varn8sh teak. The Silver Link used silver-grey coaches and tourist stock was in apple green with a wide cream band surrounding the windows in a similar style to the blue-grey livery of BR coaches in the late 1960s through to the early 1980s.

[@macjim]

Very easily, a tree (wood) has green leaves and we accept that, so why not a green loco with varnished wood?

[@bernardfitzgerald6117]

MAPS?

[@drstevenrey]

Ah, 1929, the last year in global history when Britain actually worked for the very last time ever. Downhill from then on and on and on. The bottom being reached by 1978 and since it is just sub-zero.

[@drstevenrey]

Why oh why did London, at some point in history, not build ONE (1) train station in the center. Everybody else did this. No exception.

[@JohnWayne-n3i]

Thanks for sharing! The London and North Eastern Railway (LNER) sounds like a fascinating piece of UK railway history. It's interesting to learn how it was formed from several different companies and became the second largest of the "Big Four" railway companies. If you want to delve deeper into its story, you might find this video interesting about the big four: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o3rUanWtdqh2acU

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

Now, to whiich European loading gauge was the London Extension if the GCR built? It certainly was build to the Berne loading gauge as that wasn't agreed to until 1912 and the London Extension opened in 1899. The GCR's loading gauge was 13ft 4in high and 9ft 3in wide, whilst the Berne Loading Gauge, which is the usually quote liadung gauge the line was built to, is 14ft high and 10ft 2in wide. Clearly the GCR London Extension had a smaller loading gauge, a loading gauge that would match the rest of their network and not some mythical European loading gauge. Both the NER and the GNR had taller loading gauges. Although the NER was narrower at 9ft. The GNR was the same width os the GCR. The only wider standard gauge railway was the North Staffordshire Railway at 9ft 6in eider and 13ft 5in tall and no one ever suggests that this line was build to a European loading gauge. Time tk stop repeating falsehoods as facts and do some proper research. It took me longer to type this up than to do the research.

[@Shark30006]

Great Northern- scrapped Flying Scotsman- preserved Doncaster- scrapped Papyrus- scrapped Cameronian- scrapped Salmon Trout- scrapped

[@joshuaW5621]

The LNER is the best railway.

[@Shark30006]

2509 Silver Link 2510 Quicksilver 2511 Silver King 2512 Silver Fox

[@kra6750]

Great Central Railway the old HS2?

[@Paper246]

Hello :D

[@gerogyzurkov2259]

Electric wasn't well proven yet. That and LNER wasn't exactly well funded. Gresley reportly knew the advantages of Electric, but tech wasn't developed enough for widespread use. That and diesel too.

[@Samstrainsofficially]

It was well along by 1923, it was proven by then to be more than capable of working. Gresley was pretty wrong on this front and the legacy of this carries on to this day.

[@gerogyzurkov2259]

@@Samstrainsofficially well he did do the LNER electrification. It was under his watch. It wasn't proven then in his view tho. It was i think a commuter line i think it was and i was late too like in the mid 1930s before ww2.

[@Samstrainsofficially]

@@gerogyzurkov2259 there were some limited uses of it, the north eastern had been playing with it before grouping. The mainlines being so readily put aside in favour of steam was, with hindsight, a bit of an error. Too much school boy rivalry about getting to the north fastest as well. The overall LNER network suffered as a result of a lot of silly D swinging about how fast a service could go from one end to the other while failing to realise that most money doesn't come from those services. Largely it also doesn't provide benefit to any potential customer how fast you can reach an arbitrary point on the network if they don't want to go there and the connecting service to their destination negates all your gains in speed. Its a very railway enthusiast thing to praise the speed of a service not think about who might use it and why.

[@Shark30006]

P2 No. 2001 Cock’o The North

[@johnenfield1930]

Geddes is pronounced Geddies, not Geds

[@andro7137]

...and Whitelaw is White-law. I might have enjoyed it more if the video had been more connected with the narration.

[@TheSaint491]

Ah the LNER: my least favourite of the big 4