Ross's Game Dungeon: Hellgate London

[@YukoValis]

Hey remember when in Dungeon Siege 1 you went from the farm, to the forest, to the stone tunnel, to the valley, to the castle, to the mines, to the frozen town, to the ice caves, to the snow forest, to the crystal caves, to the mushroom forest, to the swamp, to the swamp temple, to the pipe works factory, to the quarry, to the skeleton caves, to the desert plains, to the undead cavern, to the giant fortress, to the dungeons proper, to then actually hell? Yeah it was nice when they made the places in a game unique.

[@Ashalmawia]

what was nice about Dungeon Siege 1 is how it starts off relatively bland, but the further you get the more interesting it gets. that's how that kind of game should be. a lot of games suffer the opposite, getting more and more dull the further you get. (I think it may actually have been developed in reverse exactly for that reason, but I can't remember for sure if it was that game or some other.)

[@YukoValis]

@Nikos papadopoylos well you obviously needed more people in your party then. : ) despite what Ross says I always had 1 spell caster for healing and buffing. Then a few on range to help the wall of meat shields that were my melee party.

[@YukoValis]

@@Ashalmawia a lot of the best games are done that way. The dev has their most interesting ideas first, so work backwards.

[@hockseng5245]

Hey a game set in one location can be super cool too, just look at prey

[@skrotosd]

I’m still trying to understand how my character became a hero after leaving the farm, i mean, the exact moment he became a hero

[@thedani4]

"We hope you like sandwiches, cuz you ain't leaving the Subway"

[@KnjazNazrath]

Underrated comment.

[@tba113]

They built a _ton_ of lore for this game. Those blimp monsters Ross mentioned, for instance, are apparently a sort of naturally occurring wildlife from the Hell dimension. They're called 'Exospectors', and while they're not intelligent or particularly hostile, they are instrumental to Hell's invasion, because they're gradually converting Earth's atmosphere to something better suited to the demons. You find this out during a mission to shoot one down with a hidden surface-to-air missile battery, and then board the wreck to see what their deal is. Sadly, that mission is a perfect example of everything wrong with this game. The setup sounds awesome, but the execution is awful. -Fighting your way to the missile battery involves another of the God-awful miniature RTS segments, where you just throw waves of unlucky troops at a long corridor of basic enemies until one squad finally makes it all the way down the hallway, clearing the way for you to proceed - even though the demons they died against are basic mooks you could have mowed down yourself, making the carnage seem extra pointless. -The missile battery is less of a modern SAM emplacement, with sophisticated sensors and guided missiles, and more of a turret-gun sequence, since your shots are unguided rockets. On top of that, the lack of recoil and unimpressive sound design make the rockets seem laughably weak as you gradually chip away at the exospector. -The creature itself doesn't really react to being shot to death, either, just continuing to trace the same lazy circle through the sky. You have more of an obstacle from wrecked buildings getting in the way than from the exospector itself, making it seem less like demonic wildlife and more like a big red-and-gray hit-point pinata. -And as the cherry on top, once you've finally shot it down and made your way inside, the interior is... A recycled level. I kid you not, the terrain is the same branching network of purple ridged tunnels they used for the mission into the tech-smith's psyche. This game had so much promise, it's a real disappointment the actual game side of it was so completely phoned in.

[@TaRAAASHBAGS]

Reeks of early 00s where the concept of random generation was so exciting they hoped players would be hooked on the tech and ignore the completely samey and lackluster execution.

[@tba113]

@@TaRAAASHBAGS More or less, yeah. From what I remember, the game was from the era when instances and procedural generation were the new hotness, and shoestring-budget game studios thought those technologies would solve all their problems. This will probably date this comment even more than its time stamp, but I've been getting a pretty similar impression about AI-generated art recently: like any other tool, it can be amazing if used in the right circumstances and with the right touch, but expecting it to be a magic wand that takes care of everything will mostly just lead to failure and madness.

[@valletas]

@@tba113 some studios are even trying to write npc dialog with AI lmao Like if your npcs have dialog so uninteresting that an AI can write then... Maybe dont have them? Just have the npcs that actually have something to say

[@PenguinDT]

@@tba113 Funny you mention 'madness' as a result, because the ONLY time I've seen AI art used well in ANYTHING is in a game called 'Source of Madness'. It is a Lovecraft mythos game and you play as a cultist who gets short visions. These visions are done using a simple concept art piece that is animated slightly by distorting the perspective. And that is thrown to an AI processor for interpolation. Except the dataset used isn't for concept art style stuff, but apparently built of tentacles, ribs, eyeballs, etc. So when the image distorts, the AI keeps interpreting the changing shapes as all kinds wrong things, resulting a nightmarish vision that constantly shifts as if built from liquid flesh or something. It looks honestly perfect for a cultist's nightmare vision from Cthulhu mythos.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

@@TaRAAASHBAGSSadly that still occurs today... Starfield is a perfect example of that.

[@badtownsound]

Here's another upsetting thing about Hellgate: London that you'd only know if you were actually there playing it, and loving it, in '07. As I was. So if you play Hellgate: London enough, you'll notice that the level scaling is incredibly punishing. Enemies two levels higher than you take something like 1/8 damage from your attacks and deal probably double or more. Three levels, forget about it basically. Meanwhile, in the other direction, enemies one or more levels lower than you don't take all that much more damage from your attacks. They tend to be easy kills, but not THAT easy given what you've seen about level scaling going the other way. But they're worth less XP all the same, a ton less. So at least killing those enemies higher level than you gives crazy XP, right? Wrong. There is a massive debuff to XP gains when you kill an enemy higher level than you. So you gain less XP for killing enemies either lower or higher than you? Why would they do that? Well, back when Flagship ran the game, there was an area called Stonehenge, which allowed you access to gear you couldn't get in the rest of the game, and it was a really nice place to level as well because the enemies were also your level. Also, you had to pay $15/mo membership to get access to it. Ohhhh, that's why they would do that.

[@GeorgeMonet]

Lineage 2 kind of does the same thing in regards to damage and XP reduction. And everything that you need to craft your CURRENT level gear ONLY drops from mobs 4+ levels higher than your char and those mobs can and will kick your ass. Not that the drop rate was great. We're talking about drop rates in the 0.1% to 0.0001% range. And to craft something costs the equivalent of maybe 20,000-200,000+ mobs of drops or more and way more than that in currency as well as crystals that can only be produced by destroying gear of the same level you want to craft. And the craft had a 40% chance to fail. It was so shit.

[@fissionphoenix4995]

The fact that it kills your exp gain to fight higher level monsters might be something Ross didn't know about and could be enough information to allow him to finish the game but it's quite likely that even then the grind is still just hell.

[@JnEricsonx]

That's why that game while I played pissed me off. When you're using UBER attacks and it barely slows down some enemies.

[@vangoghsseveredear]

Bullshit like that is why MMOs suck, among other reasons. It always feels like "how much can you pay to have a decent game", on top of usually being pretty empty imo. I get why some people like them, but ehhh

[@JnEricsonx]

@@vangoghsseveredear I'm still playing City of Heroes. :)

[@Saramusvasque2838]

The weirdly chatty tutorial text that never stops popping up gives me Monty Python and the Holy Grail vibes. "Use the mouse to look around." "There, now you got the basics." "Later we'll go over weapon mechanics." "Have you ever been to Sweden?" "A moose bit my sister once." *The makers of this game would like to assure the players that those who were responsible for sacking those who wrote the tutorial text have been sacked*

[@beewell1600]

good one

[@Michae89]

There was similar gag in Far Cry Blood Dragon, where the tutorial explained obvious things (like "To walk put one foot ahead of other. To run, do the same but faster.") to the great annoyance of the main character played by Michael Biehn (Kyle Reese from the first Terminator).

[@oz_jones]

​@@Michae89blood dragon was an absolute blast to play.

[@ItsBunnyBuns]

*monty Python flashbacks *

[@Bukkarooo]

I think a big issue with this is that...this is a "Single Player" game that was designed to be an MMO. These levels are supposed to be run with more than one person. So you're expected to have help and more damage, and you get through things faster. It makes the repeats a bit more bearable, and it's definitely supposed to be a longer-term commitment like any MMO. That explains the quest structure and poor way the story is doled out as well. If you compare early game this to, say, early game WoW, no matter what you're running around the same areas running kill/gather quests (but in this you do get random levels to go through rather than repeated fields/caves, but it's way less visually interesting). Even Path of Exile has a similar structure to this, but the locations are admittedly MUCH prettier and more interesting to look at, so any repeats/randomization is much more welcome. I really do think that this structure and repetition would be way more forgivable if you were running through it faster with people with you to help. Even your fire elementals would probably live longer if someone was playing a tank class that can pull enemy focus. Even with friends/allies, though, these repeated areas are SO BLAND. But man, as a single player experience? This looks miserable. I wanted to play this back in the day. I can now with this but...I really don't think it's worth the time. It does truly seem like hell. Great video, and thanks again for another year of Two Game Dungeons for Halloween!

[@Gat720Dua]

I feel so bad for Ross cause awhile back I think I asked him to try out the game and now it's like a monkey's paw wish where if your not careful someone is gonna suffer and someone did suffer. I do think if you were with people it would make the experience a bit more bearable, but I also think the game just wasn't balance properly even for online RPG's.

[@gabescrazy5504]

This was an mmo, I remember playing it when it was filled with people. Many years ago

[@Bukkarooo]

@@gabescrazy5504 oh yeah I know it was! That's why is designed the way it is.

[@gestaltengine6369]

SWL now seems like a better game. It's subway levels are much better too.

[@Skarwind]

The offline version of this game was hamfisted. They could have balanced it kinda like how Diablo 1/2 or any other ARPG works. Have a normal/nightmare/hell etc mode. That is balanced around solo play but becomes more difficult as you re-play it. Instead they wanted to make the game a live service so that went out the window. I even remember the stupid subscription they tried to get from people for the "raids."

[@Spookyhoobster]

That persistent tutorial might just be the most hilarious thing I've ever seen in a video game, in that sort of "it's so bad, it's incredible" kind of way.

[@NoriMori1992]

It feels like it can't be real, yet it is. It feels like a huge parody of bad tutorials, yet it's not.

[@Infernal969]

Ross didn't make it, but I hope the ending cutscene has a giant "PRESS SPACEBAR TO SKIP THE ENDING CUTSCENE" that never fades out.

[@voxdraconia4035]

"To look around - look around!" "I hate tutorials" - Rex "Power" Colt

[@Space_Reptile]

Every time he said "sewers" I expected a ding and a counter to appear on screen

[@theharlequin7280]

Civvie would chew his own face off trying to play this game.

[@CoffeeMaus]

Nah Ross isn't petty enough to track every sewer he finds. But he is crazy enough to make a movie by himself, so there's that.

[@NightSkye27]

Wrong dungeon.

[@ursa_margo]

@@NightSkye27 sorry, Mario

[@adenowirus]

@@NightSkye27 Nah, the cells are just soundproofed.

[@Dirdle]

It's not actually good art design for Hell On Earth, London is just Like That

[@lionocyborg6030]

Dirdle As someone who's been to London a couple of times, I can confirm the city looks like this in October at night, especially Wembley.

[@John_Smith_Dumfugg]

London as SsethTzeentach tells it

[@KennaDeMerkedo]

I was feeling uneasy taking the tube for a couple of weeks after playing this one...overground locations not so much- they're kinda meh. BM was nice though.

[@nosferadu]

This game is such a great example of the standard MMORPG formula: add lots of progression mechanics and grinding. Ignore everything else. Good job, game designers.

[@klondike69none85]

Bill Roper

[@Lethargyman]

Ross, great video, but you missed out on the most scandalous part of this game. When it was released, there was actually a subscription model for online and future content. There were monthly subscriptions, as well as rather pricey “lifetime” subscription. The company Flagship Studios shut down after less than a year of the game's release, and the game’s multiplayer became fully free. It turned out that through the whole life this initial subscription service, it was cheaper to have paid month-to-month than buying the lifetime subscription. Talk about true hell. *edited for better accuracy

[@valletas]

Man that should be ilegal

[@rojovision]

I know someone who purchased that lifetime subscription. To this day they own the game for ever and ever and ever.

[@dominikmagnus]

Imagine buying subscription to go to Hell, that sounds Hellish enough :D

[@adenowirus]

@@dominikmagnus I remember doing that in a Sam & Max game.

[@termitreter6545]

And wasnt the ending like part of that subscription service?

[@selvestertm5498]

Two game dungeons?! The mold has clearly mutated Ross into some type of super productive super human. Miracles really do happen

[@proteus2103]

In the same week, no less!

[@accursedbear3795]

It's sad how mold really get's bad wrap when the mold is just trying to help.

[@rorycoady1818]

The Mold probably created a sort of fungal clone of Ross.

[@beefstew6512]

the real ross died years ago, i dont mind new ross

[@endig4501]

The guy already was a super-productive regular human. Now he's supercharged.

[@zigfaust]

Oh and the thing wrong with the writing is that every NPC talks "AT YOU" not "TO YOU". The writing comes off as very impersonal and that may be because of the emphasis on multiplayer when the game was in development.

[@HappyAspid]

I remember that in the very begining, even the game itself acknowledged that you can skip the dialogues, as they are full of nonsense.

[@MrLego3160]

The problem being the online version has different dialogue due to the near complete removal of the plot.

[@JosephDavies]

You're right. It feels as if it was intended to be a one-sided conversation (thanks to the lack of dialog trees/options), but due to what I must presume is inexperience in writing, it comes across as if you're practically overhearing the NPCs just mumbling exposition to themselves. Done well, you can mask the fact that the player isn't directly involved, but that's not what happens here at all.

[@t850terminator]

Thats sounds like alot of MMO-esque stuff

[@chillhour6155]

Which completely killed my motivation in GOING beyond 1 playthrough

[@HangmanOfficialUploads]

I remember Hellgate London being everywhere at the time and then it disappeared out of nowhere.

[@immortaluglyfish2724]

Almost like a proto-Destiny.

[@matthiasthulman4058]

I remember reading articles about it in gaming magazines before it was out and I was so incredibly excited about the whole concept. Everything looked like it was going to be great, but then I just never heard about it again.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

@@matthiasthulman4058 Launch reviews tore it apart, it had massive server issues on launch, and eventually the bugs and issues with basic playability made it fade pretty quickly, much like Tabula Rasa Online.

[@matthiasthulman4058]

@@Billy-bc8pk well that sucks, I guess. I was pretty excited about Elder Scrolls online until it became just another Warcraft clone (it always was, but still) the microtransactions and real time wait stuff made it unplayable for me

[@Billy-bc8pk]

@@matthiasthulman4058Yeah WoW clones were the big dirge of the MMO industry between like 2006 and 2014 or so. Saw a ton of them come and go and very few tried anything different. I don't mind real-time waits for stuff that makes sense, like building houses, or buidling airships in games like Allods, as it made those things seem important, but if you're waiting real-time for mats or armour to be produced, then that is just lame and totally agreed that combined with microtransactions it makes a game highly unplayable.

[@ChristianBHJ]

The fact that I multiple times throughtout the video thought "yeah, this is where I stopped playing." Is saying quite a lot to me.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

I really tried to love this game because the concept and art for some of the aestheitcs was so good. But a lot of the dungeons reminded me of Anarchy Online, and all the quests were samey and lame, and eventually I just couldn't do it anymore. I tried coming back a few few times to play it but the sameness was too much of a turnoff.

[@LordBloodpool]

In fact, not only are swords and other melee used because they have a long cultural history in 40k, but the fact that they actually HAVE a massive cultural resonance actually makes them more effective against demons.

[@Sorain1]

That's up there with one of the better 'use swords instead of bullets on demons' explanations I've thought up. Basically the demons are beings of thought and concept. They understand swords will hurt and kill them, they get that, they believe that sharp metal is dangerous to them. Magic is magic and they know that is dangerous too. Guns and explosives on the other hand, are new to them. They simply can't believe tiny bits of metal moving that fast could really hurt to kill them. Explosives they equate to magical explosions so they're somewhat more effective, but small caliber rapid firing weapons simply can't be taken seriously by the demons, so they don't work very well. Big guns, specifically bigger bullets, the demons can understand the danger of better, so they work somewhat better. Combined with experience showing them that enough bullets WILL kill them, 'modern' weapons slowly become more and more capable of harming them as they acculturate, but Swords are Swords and they know that's deadly.

[@razzamatronic9882]

There's also the whole thing where quite a lot of enemies in 40K are more than capable of getting into melee range, thus requiring people who are capable of fighting them in hand-to-hand to carry melee weapons just in case, which is why you don't usually see the average member of the Imperial Guard with a sword because they can't really deal with melee against 90% of the imperium's enemies

[@RabbiHerschel]

@@razzamatronic9882 They've got tiny swords on the ends of their laser pointers. To quote someone from real life, Mustafa Ataturk, "If you don't have ammunition, you have bayonets! FIX BAYONETS! GET DOWN!"

[@llamaczech]

@@razzamatronic9882 and the thing where the factions that commonly use swords and such are wearing armour comprable to a main battle tank, have super advanced armour plus hologram projectors that make them seem to be slightly to one side or the other, are heavily armoured Terminator types, or are giant Orks.

[@blackchibisan8116]

I’m actually a huge fan of the idea of cultural significance within fiction. But my favorite explaination I ever gave for swords over bullets was, “When the one thing that can kill the beast is behind an indestructible bone plate but we can wiggle a bladed object in there until we get it, you had better roll your sleeves up and jam a sword in there.”

[@drowze_]

When I was a kid, I saw an ad in a gaming magazine about Hellgate London, and I was really hyped. I was a huge fan of Gundam, and though this looked like a mech game, super cool and "next gen." My mom didn't let me get it at GameStop, and I was upset about it for weeks. I now see she was doing me a favor.

[@valletas]

Feel the same about pokemon ultra sun Wanted my dad to get it he didnt and i was very angry played normal sm some years later and i loved played ultra sun this year and its such a disapontiment and i would say its way worse then sm just because of the rotom dex never stops talking and the music doesnt fit the game like the original

[@ZevesG]

at the time there was nothing like it, and i had fun playing it, but it introduced me to the frustration of wasted potencial.

[@planescaped]

Same thing happened with me when my brother rented and returned Superman 64 without letting me play it. I was pissed at the time. XD

[@YukonHexsun]

A mech game where you fight demons that are invading earth? Yeah I'd play the shit out of that. The real issue is I feel like a lot of mech games don't properly exploit the scale of mechs, and by that I mean good destruction physics. Mechwarior has always done decently with its body part damage system, that's a big step in the right direction. I should be able to have my legs lopped off, then activate jump jets with half functioning guidance systems, flying towards you violently swinging a power sword. That would make me so happy.

[@iabgunner8701]

He's uploaded two times in a row. It's a miracle.

[@pygmalion0451]

A Halloween miracle. Thanks, Great Pumpkin!

[@Inanedata]

No miracle, this blessing was made by a man! All hail Ross! Praise be to him!

[@DerpyHDoo]

🙏

[@MrLego3160]

Hes uploaded quite a few time "in a row"

[@Tomsan991]

Everytime he uploaded it was in a row

[@monkeywithocd]

Man those hell portals are giving me flashbacks to Oblivion. Those Oblivion gates seemed so cool at first but after just a couple they all play exactly the same and are just a chore to go through.

[@gratuitouslurking8610]

Was my exact same thought. There's only like 5-10 different variants of beyond the gate, and like half of those are used only once for specific quests like Kvatch or Bravil. And then they made 100 GODDAMN GATES each with essentially a free grand soul gem at the end so you kinda should do them, and aaaaaaaaaa. Part of the reason beyond the jank and modding headaches of such an older game that I gave up on Oblivion for.

[@crit-c4637]

There's exactly 7, and 3 are used once. So that's 4 that we play on repeat.

[@XanWasting]

you clearly didn't play hellgate london before oblivion. I did. And I never thought that oblivion gates were repetetive. They had their unique planescape, at least. In HG:L the entire game is oblivion gates, and everything beside the metro stations is oblivion gate towers of torment-level varied.

[@ninochaosdrache3189]

At least in Oblivion, you can rush through them.

[@GeorgeMonet]

It's because they are all meaningless and are just a visual.

[@SekruTheGreat]

50:50 That "yeah, it's here" is probably one of the best gags Ross has ever done in this show.

[@SaintDaisley]

Unfortunately, I don't know where the interview was so you can...feel free to not believe anything I say, but the problems with this game came down to one guy; Bill Roper. He was one of the designers responsible for Diablo, and he took all his success and wandered off to make this company and this game. Unfortunately, Bill Roper was a great designer, but, as it turned out, terrible at actually running a project from the very top and controlling the budget. It wasn't the publisher. It wasn't the rest of the company (who were very talented and you can see flashes of that in the game). It was him. He mismanaged the whole thing horribly. The interview was with Bill Roper himself. He said this. He knew he mismanaged this project and tanked the whole company he set up.

[@KingLich451]

Damn, that sucks. I still think Bill Roper is alright. But I wish somebody else directed this game.

[@kaiosamatlj4031]

This reminds me of John Romero, except that I imagine Bill Roper didn't wasted money on a Ferrari.

[@lionocyborg6030]

Kaiosama TLJ Wasn't that Carmack? I heard that John Carmack bought one as a Quake tournament prize back in the day. Or did Romero buy one too when he was meant to work on Daikatana?

[@kaiosamatlj4031]

​@@lionocyborg6030 I was referring to Romero. He left Id to create Ion Storm and create Daikatana, and he left with a lot of money. He had the resources but he mismanaged the whole thing to epic proportions, and the Ferrari was just the tip of the iceberg.

[@lionocyborg6030]

@@kaiosamatlj4031 I'd heard about Romero, I just didn't know a Ferrari was one of the things he blew the budget for Daikatana on. Thanks for clarifying all the same.

[@ChocorocK]

Finally, the other game where you can support your local demon slaying Templars. This game along with Starcraft Ghost introduced me to the vicious cycle of hype and disappointment. Truly a spooky concept.

[@MrFanboy24]

Don't forget Spore.

[@thacobell4700]

I still feel pain over Starcraft Ghost.

[@bionicledragon]

Because of Starcraft Ghost, the Metal Arms sequel was killed off.

[@nihilvox]

Not gonna lie, I'm a huge fucking idiot so despite my complete distrust of and contempt for modern Blizzard, I'd still buy Starcraft Ghost in a heartbeat.

[@planescaped]

I woke up and stopped being a fool after preordering Dragon Age 2. I had doubts about it, as it came out so soon after Origins... but it was Dragon Age! It was Bioware! I tried to convince myself it was good... but the game was mediocre and comparative garbage as a sequel.

[@-ReynardFox]

I feel spoiled. Two game dungeons so quickly.

[@dinglepringle1380]

God damn, but does Ross know how to deliver whenever he delivers whatever he delivers.

[@gphoenix51]

If you think this game sucks now, try to imagine being in 2007 when this game first came out, being totally sucked in by the lore, and there was a MASSIVE amount of lore they made for this thing, and paying the $150 Lifetime membership fee so you could play forever, just to see the game get shut down a year and a half later. Oh, I don't have to imagine it, that WAS me! Honestly, the monster and character design, the lore and backstory for this game is superb. It was just MASSIVELY let down by it being a very early MMORPG and suffering from lots of the same problems that other early MMORPGs suffered from. Endless grind, samey quests, levels and environments, boring and slow if you're anti-social like me and solo the game. Really, I got more fun out of the comics and novels than the game itself. Still pissed off I got suckered into the $150 lifetime subscription fee though.

[@chickenpsycho68]

? They relaunched it in 2011 as the mmo. It was a normal game when it launched in 2007.

[@MedalWelder]

I was in the same boat. I kept up with this game through magazines for a whole year, got it, paid the extra money, and maybe played it for a couple days. I thought this was originally a MMO as well, so idk why they tried to make it single player.

[@512TheWolf512]

hopefully that taught you to think a bit more before parting with your money

[@raynercoslop]

damn, I don't remember a game pissing Ross off so bad he invokes Gordon Freeman this frequently

[@professor_lembach]

Oh, here's your problem: "Publisher: Electronic Arts".

[@Benzinilinguine]

Yes. He made that joke.

[@johnivanoplimo5172]

F*ck you, EA!

[@StarkeRealm]

Less of an issue than it looks, though. EA was the North American distributor, but it wasn't an "EA game." They neither developed, nor produced it.

[@harzzachseniorgamer5516]

@@StarkeRealm Yepp, even EA got flagshipped by the devs.

[@Thraim.]

@Fourthspartan56 This was actually supposed to be an MMO but got flipped to single players. That's the kind of decision that comes from the publisher 99% of the time. It also explains most of the bad design choices, as originally it would have been made with player parties in mind. That means we can safely blame EA for this kerfuffle.

[@WalcomS7]

I still have the collectors edition of this. This is the best Halloween present ever, Ross.

[@Maniac536]

*CE owner fist bump*

[@kalemmackey2917]

I bought it at a Flea Market once, but it didn't come with the disk, sad. The comic is pretty sick though.

[@Slizarus]

Me too! God that comic book was great.

[@rain6353]

Same! I have my big box still. Was so hyped for this game. While it was pretty.. lacking, it was still atmospheric and fun!

[@ExternalDialogue]

Woah didn't expect to see you here.

[@HA7DN]

Wow, 2 dungeons in less then a month? Am I dead? No way I got to heaven!

[@Minecrafter5077]

Make that 2 in less than a week!

[@od4361]

@@Minecrafter5077 Yeah, god damn, Ross is on a roll.

[@Quitarstudent]

you mkight have covid

[@Caydiem]

We blew everything on the opening CGI: The game.

[@Billy-bc8pk]

To be fair, that opening CGI is so bada$$.

[@immortaluglyfish2724]

31:38 this also is a problem when a character gives you a weapon as a gift for story purposes, and you're just like "no thanks, I already have something stronger"

[@cougar2k720]

Lol, the entire Game Dungeon had Ross going "Do I have to?" Feel to it. One man's suffering for our enjoyment and entertainment!

[@Pixelmusement]

I think I know what's wrong with your mouse: The Polling Rate. Some games, both old and new, which are designed to directly access the mouse hardware, bypassing the normal interface for reading mouse values, can get messed up if the polling rate of the mouse being used isn't EXACTLY 125 Hz as is default for most USB mice. Some mice, mostly gaming mice, go as high as 1,000 Hz, and some of those don't even allow you to modify this. If your mouse drivers allow you to modify the polling rate, bring it down to 125 Hz, or if you have a cheap mouse lying around, try plugging that in and seeing if it makes a difference. This doesn't affect the cursor on the menus because that's just the standard Windows cursor with a different coat of paint on it, which is going through the proper mouse interface.

[@Thecommander248]

So the better your mouse, the worse it gets? Damn that's harsh. Ross is obsessed with ergonomic mouses. He would hate that solution.

[@Accursed_Farms]

Nope, I just checked at 125Hz, it still feels like it has dirt on the sensor. I tend to keep my polling rate low anyway since it can reduce your framerate and I found the difference subtle.

[@Pixelmusement]

@@Accursed_Farms Nuts. Well, was good to mention this anyways because it's a very easy thing to overlook as for 99% of games, the polling rate is a non-issue, but this was otherwise exactly the kind of thing a polling rate incompatibility tends to do in a game. :B

[@TheInsomniaddict]

@@Accursed_Farms Maybe try PS/2 and cut out the middle man entirely?

[@Xeotroid]

@@TheInsomniaddict _system crashes_

[@patrickoleary1425]

Another game dungion this soon. The sacrifises are working

[@awittyusernamepleaselaugh7481]

Now things are beginning to make sense. More later.

[@CPU-to5es]

Thank you friend

[@Darkspace.]

Mmm... yes

[@MithrilRoshi]

Thats how the Hellgate will open... But keep it up we need more dungeons.

[@GatorMilk]

We need to sacrifice the children now so we can get a third episode.

[@rainfeller]

I have watched an unhealthy amount of Game Dungeon and Ross content recently that he's begun to narrate my life. I was walking down the street earlier and I heard in my head, in his voice, "Why does this sidewalk just end? I still have to walk here. Well, I guess it's time to play my favorite game; try to get to my destination without getting hit by a car! Hope I don't become hamburger meat!". I'm not sure if I'm upset about it or not.

[@razor1199]

The Ross Parable needs to be a thing.

[@Shoxic666]

Holy shit I agree, whenever I see some dumb bullshit I can practically hear Ross point it out.

[@anonymouslucario285]

I have the same thing, except mine can come in two different flavors: Ross or Gordon Freeman. Ross typically comments on stuff like he does in game dungeon while Gordon is the one who complains about stuff. I think I watched so much of Accursed Farms that my id and ego transformed into Ross and Gordon respectively.

[@dylanpelo]

Only just the frustration yell he has. But that happens a lot.

[@seagoddess9937]

Man I felt this. Whenever I explain something involving computers or games: Ross. When it's a social issue or an internet thing I'm explaining: Moist Critical

[@ShiftJay08]

Judging by how well the cinematic cutscenes and trailers still hold up today, I wouldn't be surprised if they spent half the budget on it.

[@Psyona]

One thing you have to understand about the game. It was rushed, and released way before the Devs thought it was ready (thanks EA). Thanks to all of this the game is janky. Digging through the data, files, and stories, there is so much more buried beneath that hasn't seen the light of day. So much more that would have made it better. As far as the game stands now, it is still being worked on by a dedicated team of fans. It's labeled on the timeline at the beginning of the video as "London 2038" It is very much active and in development. Today, on the games 13th anniversary, the project is entering Open Beta as a very stable Multiplayer mod, with future expanded content being planned and worked upon. Needless to say, it runs and feels much differently than vanilla, and the Steam version. 2038 is going in the direction the team feels the original developers would have taken it in. You should definitely check it out.

[@TaRAAASHBAGS]

I genuinely don't understand fans who have the time and talent that choose to prop up these old/abandoned massively broken games instead of just developing their own, particularly spiritual successors.

[@Unit076]

@@TaRAAASHBAGS Having one common goal to work on /might/ be easier for gathering like-minded talents. Also, working on any recognizable project that can generate following is always good for your portfolio when you want to go independent.

[@thelasttaarakian]

@@TaRAAASHBAGS you answered your own question.

[@smjsuperscott]

For Ross, some lore explanation: Wow, I'm impressed you even tried to play this travesty. I remember way back when I was on the hype train for this. I always wanted to play an mmo but nothing grabbed me, I was hoping for this (rip). I did, however, read the novels published before the game came out. To answer you about the Templars and their armor, they knew Hell was coming due to prophecy and visions and stuff and had a secret society making this stuff for them for 2020. Apparently as well in the few years leading up to the proper invasion lesser ones happened and the government captured and tested on demons to make the anti-demon guns, as well as people learning magic and summoning and stuff, using the hell energy for themselves. Also the swords are supposed to be better than even special anti-demon guns for killing demons due to fantasy reasons really (oh, more surface area interacts with the demon than a bullet, but that doesn't explain why you can't make massive cannon-esque ballistae with retrievable bolts with similar levels of enchantment). It's been a while since I read the books but I remember them being OK writing (massively better than the game, good lord) and actually had one cool concept in them. The demons are interdimensional and go around conquering other dimensions for resources (kinda like doom really) and do this utilizing a magical construct they own known as the well of souls that makes literally every single demon immortal since whenever you kill them they go back to the well and are reborn. This is obviously an explanation for respawning enemies but from an actual lore standpoint it is an interesting concept for a literally never ending enemy. From what I remember the idea for the game was it'd lead up to a final assault on Hell in order to destroy the well to permanently stop it. God I wish this game was good, I think we are mood kindred in how few good games exist regarding hell invasions and the like.

[@rain6353]

I feel you. I really wanted this to be the next step in Diablo styled ARPGs. I REALLY like guns in my rpg games and this did quite a bit right... but far too much wrong. Such a travesty

[@Gat720Dua]

I feel EA is to blame for this.

[@julianfacundocalabrese1176]

Did... did you just say the well of souls made the demons immortal? Are you implying level 3 is still haunting ross? In fact, enemies getting harder in unreasonable rates... oh my god it IS the well of souls

[@xdlol1177]

In regards to weapons, aren't swords more effective than guns in fantasy due to how a sword can absorb more magic into the blade than the small, individual bullet? Also large weapons like ballista requires a crew to operate, which in this setting would only ever be effectively used for defensive or large scale battles. More often than not, in an apocalyptic setting where humanity is losing, striking fast and hard is more effective than lugging around heavy artillery, especially against seemingly unending enemies.

[@dominikmagnus]

@@Gat720Dua EA is the real Devil here

[@itaybron]

Well more Ross's game cartography, i can't complain.

[@adenowirus]

I think he modified a pre-existing map. Still interesting.

[@zenonewicz]

Medieval detective who kills himself to solve crimes? It's gotta be Daemonica.

[@Pan_Z]

Finally, a game that doesn't just use hell as a visual theme, but actually simulates it.

[@R.Daneel]

I played this when it came out. It is an MMORPG that could be played offline. And it didn't really last long enough to go through enough balancing. It was just another promising game ruined by a rush to market. It is basically a demo reel of potential game ideas.

[@XaerQwickBlade]

It wasn't even the rush to market that killed it. It was their payment model at launch was entirely screwed up. The merchant-client they used didn't even let them collect the money people payed for the first year, and so the devs basically fell apart with no funding right out the gate.

[@dominikmagnus]

yeah, EA ruined another game, just as always...

[@DR3ADER1]

@@dominikmagnus It wasn't EA's fault, believe it or not. If anything, it was the banks(Specifically, Comerica Bank) who killed Flagship if you're looking for final blows, and it was Flagship themselves if you consider their actions when the game was online. Remember, Flagship was stupid enough to code a really ineffectual Merchant-Client and propped themselves with the US banks during the GFC which was smart and by "smart" I mean the moment Hanbitsoft dumped them after the game was re-released in South Korea, Flagship was at the mercy of Comerica and the public investors seeking collateral because it was THEM who funded the game, NOT EA. EA partially funded APB, but even that game flopping was the fault of Realtime Worlds insisting on a subscription model post-League of Legends, and the fact that they wanted to waste more of the British Taxpayer's money to keep themselves alive, thank fuck the Coalition Government said "Fuck No, piss off" when RW attempted that.

[@dominikmagnus]

@@DR3ADER1 TL;DR who cares, they all can just go and burn in Hellgate London. EA have enough crimes against games as is. One more wouldn't be much of a difference

[@DR3ADER1]

@@dominikmagnus, You cared enough to respond, and lying about something you don't like doesn't work in the real world, narratives and agendas are the thinking fool's scripture. In layman's terms, only idiots adopt easy narratives.

[@BunkerDweller]

Nice to see someone else covering this game. I covered it a few years ago and man, what a love hate relationship. Still, kinda sad that the steam release was only the singleplayer, I would loved to have experienced this game online.

[@Accursed_Farms]

Thanks, I hadn't heard of your channel, I took a quick look at it, it's well done, it's kind of like what I do, but more competent.

[@RedMatthew]

I loved the books when I learned there was a game I immediately started looking into it watched some playthroughs and immediately lost interest

[@quintonhoffert6526]

@@RedMatthew I was the opposite: I was hyped that the game was coming out because I was a big Diablo 2 fan and I saw that most of the people who worked on D2 worked on Hellgate. Then I read the books and got even more hyped because I liked them so much. Then I played the game and was crushed.

[@dereknight861]

I KNEW IT!! Ross consorted with the devil to go double on Halloween this year! Must’ve been a line considering it’s 2020...

[@Voltamatum]

Ross consorting is what causes Hellgate London to begin with

[@BrotherRoga]

Hellgate: London? That doesn't sound scary per sé- *EA logo* OH GOD!

[@LHKKKing]

The heck is this? *EA logo* OK, that explains everything.

[@daedalus6433]

@Lassi Kinnunen 81 It was made by ex-Diablo devs, so it's just generic American jank.

[@Summoned-Nightmare]

You know what blows my mind in retrospect of this game? It's proof that games genuinely don't need to die. This game started off as an MMO. It had subscription services and a 'lifetime' purchase. This likely had a central server everyone could connect to just like live service games. Meaning that, whatever costs it took to make the game single player *after* it was already released, was presumed to be less than the revenue they would make from people buying a *single player MMO after it died*. Which really makes you realize how *trivial* the work must be to make the game single player, and how easy it could be for *other* games like this.

[@drekbleh7081]

I think the dialogue comes off as a place holder until a actual writer filled in actual character, but the budget ran dry before a writer was hired. Look at the paste at 14:55 dev notes probably read "Murmur recounts last events and reinforces stakes" and...that was it 24:53 holy sh1t this comes off as "now the player interacts with powerful mind broken character who speaks like she's giving a foreboding omen, but it's too late"

[@quintonhoffert6526]

It might have been placeholder but I'm not convinced. Most of the people who made D2 didn't care about story and outsourced story development to a side team at Blizzard North so they could focus on the gameplay. My source is David Craddock, who interviewed David Brevik a bunch of times in preparation for writing Stay a While and Listen, which documents the creation of Diablos 1 and 2: one of the interviews mentioned this detail (or something close to it anyway) and the information should be somewhere in the two finished books. Since these same people were the people who created and developed Hellgate: London, it wouldn't surprise me if they did the same thing and outsourced most of the dialogue and story to another team while they worked on the gameplay. Most of them believed that story in games was like story in porn (expected but not worth giving a damn about), so it wouldn't surprise me if they just kept whatever their first draft of story and dialogue was because they expected players to skip through dialogue and just play the game, as many players did with Diablo 2.

[@gestaltengine6369]

Some people just write like that.

[@drekbleh7081]

@@quintonhoffert6526 Given what you (and Ross) said you're probably right. Plus look at 11:15 A kid with a prosthetic with the quest called "a leg up" Is this a callback to wirt's leg?

[@quintonhoffert6526]

@BrokenMikrofone Me too, especially as a foodie. Like, I get that you can get really amazing results from just the basic ingredients seasoned well with simple flavors. Greek cooking is all about the core ingredients, usually flavored with simple but powerful flavorings like salt and pepper or, in the case of seafood, a small amount of fresh seawater. Likewise, a lot of Japanese cuisine is all about using simple flavor enhancers to make the core flavors of really fresh, delicious foods shine. However, that's not a good comparison here. For one thing, both cuisines rely on using really fresh, high-quality ingredients and letting the simple flavorings elevate them. Meanwhile, for Hellgate: London specifically and many other games in general, I would scoff at the idea that the gameplay could be considered "fresh" or "high-quality": if it was, at least in this case, Ross wouldn't be making fun of it. And then of course there's the obvious and correct argument that even in the case of cuisines like Greek and Japanese food, good seasoning is important, just simple. I would consider games like Mario or Zelda to be more like Japanese cuisine, where the story is mostly simple and unobtrusive but gets the job done and still allows for stories and characters that were and remain resonant, even 20+ years after their creation. Overall I have to say that I don't have much respect for game developers who don't respect all the parts of a game. I can understand certain types of games focusing strongly on one or two aspects and not so much on others, such as an Indie game having little story and mostly gameplay, or a visual novel having mostly story and little gameplay, but I can't bring myself to respect developers who intentionally create a game with certain aspects that they just leave under-developed because they don't care. Plus, Diablo 1 came out less than a month after Final Fantasy 7's US release, and Diablo 2 came out 3 years later. IMO, there should have been no reasonable argument at that time that games are like porn in that the story doesn't matter.

[@LonelySpaceDetective]

I don't really have a whole lot to contribute in regards to writing in games (you guys all did a far better job than I), but I saw one of you paraphrase the ol' John Carmack quote about story in games, and I feel like there's some valuable and somewhat relevant context to it that's been lost with all the repeats. Carmack said that in response to Tom Hall's proposal for making DOOM a story-heavy game. Like if you read up on the game's development, they weren't sure at first what direction they wanted to go, and Tom's idea was to do something with a lot of plot and actual characters after they did so many story-light games, and then only after hearing it does Carmack utter the immortal line. So I read it not as Carmack being literal and saying that nobody cares about the story in any game whatsoever, but that he was making the point that story isn't everything and that games can lean into just being fun and still be a great experience. Essentially, he was criticizing Tom's idea for being a bit overfluffed for their style. I bring this up because I feel this plays nicely into the idea discussed here that story is like a spice or flavoring. It certainly can elevate some games much further, but you can't use the same flavoring for every meal, and Carmack didn't think DOOM was that kind of food. EDIT: Like, Carmack was a DM; surely he had some idea of how much a good story can add to a gaming experience.

[@cactuscultist_2307]

London? Like, the bridge? This is getting outrageous now, Ross. You're stretching it.

[@JohnDoe-ne4kg]

Fun fact: The orignal London Bridge is actually in Arizona now

[@fds7476]

@@JohnDoe-ne4kg See, if it werent for Joel Schumacher's Falling Down, I would have never believed it.

[@provalone]

Sooooooo..... is this a bad time to mention you were playing the wrong minion class? The tech minion is almost as good as a second player,, lets you be a full combat character as well, uses a weapon you can trade out as you progress which lets it scale, and it makes the game way easier. (still unbalanced as all hell(gate), but playable)

[@znea1]

I remember playing through as the dual sword class, was great fun bashing through the levels, then I watched my friend playing as a sniper marksman and the amount of time he was spending setting up and checking corners looked not fun at all. As I recall I eventually ended up dual wielding hand miniguns which I had... enchanted(?) with a chance to stun on hit, made late game a little grindy, but not particularly dangerous. Then for the final boss fight the game glitched and I was invisible and invulnerable. Good times.

[@zydian_]

I reset talents option would've been a great feature. Who knew!?

[@TheFormHater]

@@zydian_ GuildWars. That's who knew.

[@JackXombi]

Summoners were famous for being the slowest start class (next to the guardian). Cabalists had the weirdest and worst guns. Guaranteed if he was slicing and dicing or dropping tactical strikes the grind would have seemed less grindy.

[@lionocyborg6030]

"A lot of these areas are copied and pasted. Whole hallways, rooms, so it gets a little confusing."

[@TheBersergner]

Back to your cell CV-11

[@lionocyborg6030]

@@TheBersergner I hope CV 18 makes it out. 18 is good people.

[@gratuitouslurking8610]

"Y'know a lot of this comment section is copied and pasted. Whole references, memes, so it gets a little confusing."

[@lionocyborg6030]

@@gratuitouslurking8610 Good point. Them's the break I guess.

[@Chocl8215]

Took me a second.

[@theartistformerlyknownassh9534]

I remember when this came out I thought, how bad could it really be, why does everyone hate it so much? Well, here's my answer. That burning toilet at 39:54 is an apt description of this game. Also as someone that's spent a lot of time in London the streets are the most barebones attempt at a London setting, literally the only thing that makes it identifiable as London is the chequered pattern liveries on the abandoned police/emergency vehicles. It's like a canal-less Amsterdam mixed with Prague where some British cops decided to park their cars. Seems like they don't even bother with London's old intricate alleyways after the tutorial level when those are literally perfect for boxing the player in and making the game more intense, could have replaced some of those endless sewer/maintenance levels with some of that. But hey there's some red phone boxes and maybe some wrecked double deckers so oi oi m8 welcum to lahndahn. This comment just keeps getting longer but I can't stop finding things to be mad at when it comes to Hellgate 'London''s London. Kinda wish you'd do the Tokyo expansion, guess it'd be exactly the same except the underground stations now have Japanese names and the streets have the occasional neon sign.

[@tap836]

Don't forget they also had the Tardis.

[@1manorgy]

I remember having bought this as a naive little boy who still had hope in the gaming industy. I was just as agitated playing it as Ross sounds. It's funny when it happens to someone else though.

[@ursa_margo]

Are saying you lost this hope? You shouldn't

[@1manorgy]

@@ursa_margo Older games and indie games are fine, but I would never spend my precious money on AAA games, since they're produced to make the most money rather than provide the best possible experience for the players.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

@@ursa_margo Why shouldn't he? the industry has been racing to the bottom for years now, really not a lot worth getting these days.

[@martingergov6562]

> 2020 > Hell on Earth begins They got that part right.

[@einzelfeuer_2855]

@BrokenMikrofone Lmao

[@hypolyxa7207]

Not really. I'd take 2020 ANY DAY over 1939-1945. Stop whining.

[@Janfon1]

Someone's sick of hearing about Covid, I see

[@Sara3346]

@@hypolyxa7207 IDK It didn't seem so bad for most of Latin America.

[@RabbiHerschel]

@@hypolyxa7207 I'd go back to 1939 in a heartbeat. A few words in the right ears could guarantee that the holy crusade against Bolshevism could be properly won and Zionism defeated.

[@TheXell]

Man, my buddy was crazy about this game. He even wrote a TTRPG for it which we played on several occasions, with even some aspirations of selling it as is or making it copyright-proof.

[@moriskurth628]

Honestly? The setting overall has potential, but the game didn't show it. Also, it was probably one of, if not the first game of the "Looter Shooter" genre, before the likes of Borderlands and Destiny made it popular. An Instance-Based, FPS MMORPG.

[@TheXell]

@@moriskurth628 Yeah, as a setting it kinda reminds me of Shadowrun, with the whole concept of old superstition suddenly becoming real and fucking over modern society.

[@Morec0]

You got the rules around? I'd love to see them.

[@TheXell]

@@Morec0 Not ATM, and I cant contact him since he's recently "gone dark" after some shit went down with his relationship. If you hit me up in a week or so I might've dug an older version of it out of some old storage media. But it's mostly gonna be useless unless you can read German.

[@Morec0]

@@TheXell I cannot. Much like Ross, it seems to have turned into a liability.

[@goblinsrevenge]

Feels like this game should be on an episode of Matt McMuscles "What Happened?" series.

[@LeilaRWilson]

My ex love love LOVED this game, and would constantly force me to play it every time it re-released. x.x; I'm glad to see that other people find it terribly boring, too.

[@BBHood217]

This game will make Civvie's Sewer Count go haywire.

[@NEEDbacon]

I honestly kept expecting the green 8bit text to flash up with a ding.

[@TheOneUntakenName]

When the deep-voiced Ross started talking I began picturing him in a cell down the hall from CV-11.

[@frank144p4]

I think he’s have an easier timing counting levels that were not sewers.

[@bearmandev]

@@TheOneUntakenName We all know that Civvie is in a cell, and Ross runs the facility. It's called _Ross's_ game dungeon after all.

[@MultiMACOLO]

*12 monkeys theme intensifies*

[@biscuithammer00]

Ross, I feel like you'd enjoy Remnants: From the Ashes. It has a lot of the elements you like from Hellgate but cuts way down on the busywork and the other negative elements.

[@biscuithammer00]

There's even a survival mode in one of the DLC updates that let you skip all the story nonsense and just kill monsters on a timer.

[@Wikloe]

@@biscuithammer00 That game is exactly where my mind went when he was talking about the hell on earth visuals near the start. Definitely not a game that would be on the Game Dungeon, but I agree I agree it's something he may actually enjoy.

[@tamanebp]

Plus its currently half off on Steam! Thanks for the recommendation.

[@biscuithammer00]

@PBJ I know. But it's a pretty forgiving one.

[@danieladamczyk4024]

@@biscuithammer00 Remnat, have all good parts of ds without most of the chore one.

[@1senhart]

Huh. Fun fact about this game: As part of the promotion for this game, they put a character from it named Avalon in Playboy Magazine. Yes, actually.

[@Nissun0]

Sometimes I forget how much more sexist videogames used to be. Stuff like this are good reminders.

[@stevethepocket]

Like, fully nude, or what?

[@smugchuckles1140]

@@Nissun0 what's sexist about that?

[@ManiacalForeigner]

@@smugchuckles1140 Nothing, these people just see sexism everywhere.

[@blarbful]

@@Nissun0 Yes they were better times.

[@severalowls]

I remember enjoying this as a teen because it could run on more or less a potato. Then, years after the servers shut down, I won it from a competition from a magazine that was also failing. I think it might've been slightly cursed.

[@FaceJP24]

This reminds me of EYE: Divine Cybermancy, but significantly worse.

[@xaechireon]

I don't know, I really enjoyed playing Hellgate London, but I have a lot of difficulty trying to get into EYE. Maybe its because EYE came out years later when I became less tolerant of tedious game design, but I still look back on my memories of HGL mostly fondly.

[@ladyhm.6748]

@@xaechireon Watch Mandalore's video on it. Get legs upgraded ASAP, they're the most important above everything else.

[@MelvinDukowski]

@@xaechireon Don't worry. EYE is a great game but it just has some early game hell. When you get over the first hump and it clicks it becomes amazing.

[@logarithmmm]

you gain brouzouf

[@gratuitouslurking8610]

I think Eye honestly wins out due to the levels being a bit more built for interest, even if they also kinda just looked like a lot of Source Engine dark and grey. The big dif is where you get stuff like the neo-city lights and the totally not 40k temples and so on.

[@birdroll]

Crafting in these “looter shooter” type games and mmo’s is always so bad. How does no-one realise that crafting outside of healing and buff items is completely useless as looted gear overtakes it every time until the end of the game. It really pisses me off. Pick one or the other, not both.

[@humanitysucks4025]

Have you considered that perhaps a game could have craftable items that are better than looted ones?

[@MrLego3160]

Divinity os 2 has your crafted items scale to your level but with no special effects, so its handy if its been a couple levels since you found a new axe or hood or something

[@gajbooks]

@@MrLego3160 Divinity OS 1 also has some fantastic items you can get a higher crafting levels, including unique armor addons that prevent knockdown, and actually half-decent weapons.

[@JosephDavies]

@@humanitysucks4025 I've considered it, but it seems to be exceedingly rare that a game's developers do...

[@BloodyAltima]

Most games do actually reach a point where crafted gear is just better than 90% of drops, with only super special awesome infinity+1 gear edging it out. Its just generally later in the game after you've maxed out crafting, hit the final tier of gear, and/or you've got your fancy recipes.

[@Mech4]

I think the furthest I got in Hellgate: London singleplayer was, maybe, around the fifth chapter. I think I was playing as a marksmen or an engineer, something focused on sniping, dealing large amounts of damage to a single target. It became a problem when the game threw groups of demons which healed each other and had quickly regenerating shields while spamming lightning balls everywhere. That first, prerelease trailer though. It was so awesome with the two templars carving through demon hordes. The stories really weird half serious but with a lot of joking around and silly humour as well. It's very all over the place.

[@gajbooks]

"I did not find the maintenance halls riveting enough I want to do them all over again". This is the exact problem with MMOs. I hate this.

[@JarlFrank]

Thanks to this, while several of my friends became WoW players in the mid-late 00s, I quit after 3 weeks because it became too repetitive

[@gajbooks]

@@JarlFrank I have this problem with Borderlands and Destiny and all MMOs. Skyrim is barely acceptable in this regard, but does have technically distinct locations even if they are the same pattern. I play either single player linear games, or completely freeform games, never MMO questing style games. I also never understand people who like to "grind" in games. Like, I play games to do new things, not repeat myself.

[@JarlFrank]

Skyrim is okay, although my favorite Elder Scrolls is still Morrowind. The one thing I don't get in Skyrim is the radiant quests. The game already has dozens of handmade quests and a huge world to explore. What's the point of adding those randomized repeatable quests that have you go to [insert dungeon] and kill [bandit leader name] infinitely.

[@gajbooks]

@@JarlFrank It's for the MMO crowd, I guarantee it. Witcher 3 does the same thing, but at least there they are clearly marked, and at least for the first time are very well scripted and continue to feel like story missions.

[@jepeman]

Problem with procedural generation in general.

[@ellerobinson8803]

the first time i played this video i had it on in the background while i was high af playing through black mesa for the hundredth time. i 100% had an existential crisis about being trapped in a meaningless time loop halfway through

[@macbrown99]

Imagine what a classic this would have been if it had been given the time to get ironed out properly. Nothing worse than wasted potential.

[@Bacony_Cakes]

Just like everything else EA.

[@shogun2215]

Hello, English Literature student here and you did a good job summarising what's wrong with this writing, honestly. The writing reminds me of the music from Dungeon Siege; it's as if the writer wasn't told what the game would be before they wrote it. 'Phoned in' as it were.

[@HAL-iv2kd]

This game quotes Einstein *_AND_* Britney? I'm sold

[@cyfertau1975]

It also quotes George W. Bush. Hell, there are too many quotes from too many people in this game.

[@stevena488]

Hey, Ross? Thanks so much for this btw. Had a hard week and I lost my dog (she was unwell) and your game dungeon output has really REALLY helped. Legit, thanks man.

[@agonygoose]

This has probably been mentioned already, but when you got teleported back to the start of the level, it's likely that you fell through the floor slightly, and the game panicked and moved you back to a known "good position". If you look at the frames before you got teleported, your view moves down as if starting to fall. Collision detection is difficult, and sometimes things can happen to push a character through the floor. In case that happens there's often a collider under the map to detect when a player falls through the floor, and move them back to a certain point in the level.

[@Luciferkrist]

Know what was a decent thing that come from this series? The books. No lie, they were pretty decent for the source material.

[@tap836]

I really enjoyed those books. Gave lots of backstory.

[@lainiwakura3741]

I kinda love how you rarely upload anything but then get multiple episodes finished in succession. I used to think doing it differently would be better, as in doing a video every month or every other month, but no. This way I never expect anything and everytime you upload it is not only a treat but a treat for the next several days. Good job Ross and take some time off to enjoy Halloween.

[@Hellgrey]

I still remember when I saw early screenshots of it. Different models of basic zombies (with clothes, with different textures), different levels (with more details) and so on. It was revealed that the devs rushed the game, which you see right now.

[@BEARDYDUCK]

I 100% recommend people NOT play the vanilla version of Hellgate London, and instead look into one of the many overhaul mods available (London 2038, Nagahaku, Unofficial Revival, Lost London). They crank up the gameplay by making it faster, adding more mobs, adding more items, and redesigning skilltrees. Oh, and they also have skilltree respecs.

[@tralphstreet]

The game doesn't look interesting enough to be worth checking, even if they fix the balance issues. It's dull, and the gameplay doesn't look nor fun or engaging. Why even bother?

[@BEARDYDUCK]

@@tralphstreet I just listed a bunch of overhaul mods that fixes the gameplay.

[@jupitard]

I'll check out some of those mods. I completed vanilla HGL back in 2008 on Nightmare with a solo marksman, it was great. Ross is so lame for needing cheats but I try not to judge. Wish this game lasted long enough to get an expansion like Diablo 2 LoD. It was so ahead of its time and underdeveloped. Total contradiction.

[@Kaucukovnik666]

Played the game with the Lost London mod. Skills and equipment seemed balanced enough for the initial difficulty, but the environments were just as dull as Ross describes. The nightmare difficulty was pretty much unplayable. And there is nothing lame about using cheats in a game that's wasting your time. It's between you and your PC and the machine doesn't give a damn. "Look, 'Big Steve' whom I've never heard of before and will likely never hear about again finished HG:L on Nightmare without cheating, what a man!"

[@jupitard]

@@Kaucukovnik666 This thread is discussing mods and the opening sentence is recommending not playing vanilla. My point is that the game is quite playable even on max difficulty long before mods even existed. It's your loss if you can't follow a discussion to the extent that you're now struggling to rationalize cheating.

[@TheIcarusFalls]

I remember the hype around this game back in the day. I, myself, was excited about it, knowing the game had guys from Diablo 1 & 2 working on it. I thought "Wow! A techno-horror first person Diablo with randomly generated levels? Sign me up!" Then I played it...

[@ME-ex3yz]

"When you're tired of maintenance tunnels, you're tired of life." - Samuel Johnson

[@EriYT]

I was so excited for this game before it came out. It was such a bummer.

[@CybershamanX]

Me, too. I was hyped for years. Was pretty involved in the pre-release scene and even did some (awful) fan fiction. Then, it came out and... Ugh. I even got the Founder Edition. :P Remember the Guy Fawkes event? That was right after Halloween (when the game cake out). And we were getting baked potato drops. :P Still, I had some good times. Well, good time commiserating with my friends, that is. ;)

[@lostbutfreesoul]

While it was not the game that did it for me, I too understand the hype-train disappointment. Lessons learned though, no need to jump on that train again!

[@BuckRodgers3]

I still go back and rewatch some of the prelaunch trailers, the studio must have spend 80% of their budget on them and the opening because they led to unreal amounts of hype when viewed.

[@CybershamanX]

@@lostbutfreesoul What a harbinger for things to come, eh? :/

[@siveon298]

This is one of those games where it attracted some sort of audience that absolutely loves it for what it is. For the people who are looking at it through Ross' perspective, it'll totally seem like they're out of their minds. The bland level design, the shit story, the underwhelming gameplay, if you look at it as a first/third person game that tries to scratch the diablo II grind and only that - it makes more sense.

[@GeorgeMonet]

"audience that absolutely loves it for what it is". And what is it? A bland boring uninspired game with a shit story and underwhelming gameplay. Well there are lots of games like this who do a much better job and don't waste the player's time. And Diablo 2 was pretty shit too in much the same way that this game is. Awful gameplay, boring repetitive uninspired levels.

[@shadow4877]

Ross...you’re too good to us, man.

[@DiegoTan66]

Thank you for creating Ross, I'm absolutely addicted to your Game Dungeons. Still rewatching older ones every now and then.

[@whatmeworry4713]

Hi Ross!!! Have been a longtime viewer even since Freeman's Mind was new and I really enjoy your views on video games, especially the entertainment you put out. Thank you so much for putting out this quality content and for giving me personally the nostalgic feel whenever I watch your videos. From when like the PS3 was still big and I feel the "being a nerd" trend got big. Still feel good to watch your content and can't wait for more!!!

[@Pak-sac]

What did we do to deserve 2 videos in 3 days!!! Thanks for a great Halloween Ross!

[@KlausWulfenbach]

NO WAY. My all time most favorite game... that also absolutely deserves to be a Game Dungeon episode. I still have the original discs and a copy of the last patch by the original devs. Even with the Steam version, which is it's own bundle of eccentricities, there's just nothing quite like the original HGL. 28:57 If I recall correctly, all of the cutscenes were outsourced, and the devs weren't really communicating or paying attention to the cinematics until two weeks before launch. The cinematic team was simply going off the setting bible and character designs they were given, and were never given any direction regarding the tone the cinematics should take. Imagine if the original Doom had a separate team working on cutscenes based on Tom Hall's Doom Bible and Id were forced by their publisher to include them. It's kind of like that. By the way, the skills are super unbalanced, but they're super unbalanced in a very Diablo II 1.0 kind of way. I actually had an okay time with the summoner class when I first play HGL because I was able to recognize which skill picks to avoid. It's actually a little worse in HGL 1.0 because all of the skills for every class and all of the loot in the game were balanced for multiplayer and barely tested for singleplayer. Some of this is fixed in the original final patched version, but not all of it. But I completely understand why Ross gave up on the game. Like other games of it's time, including Diablo II 1.0, it's just too easy to pick skills in the beginning that don't just become suboptimal later, but actually make the game completely unplayable. I've heard from players who played the multiplayer that online was much, much better than singleplayer in pretty much every way. In particular, when you could trade with other players it was far easier to obtain and craft adequate gear. Not only that, but a lot of skills that become useless at higher levels in single player were still useful at higher levels in multiplayer. HGL is a multiplayer game that can be played offline, but that's not the intended experience, and that's why single player HGL deserves to be part of Ross' Game Dungeon.

[@Imsanthisismychannnelhi]

@PBJ He only played Bubsy 3D, Desert Bus and the flowers of robert mapplethorpe

[@KlausWulfenbach]

@PBJ No, no, no: It's not my all time most favorite game of all the games I've played. What I'm saying is: of all the terrible janky games I've played that deserve to be Game Dungeon episodes, single player HGL is my favorite. It's a guilty pleasure. Sometimes when I play it again, which isn't often, it feels like the game itself is telling me "Wait, you're really still playing Hellgate London? There are so many better games you could be playing!" and I just chuckle and softly reply "Yeah, I know." and keep playing for just a little longer.

[@emilchan5379]

I played the Engineer and did pretty ok too. Maybe I was just lucky with my skill picks. And yes D2 1.0 was terribly unbalanced. My first character was a skeleton focused Necromancer, whose Skeletons were more or less useless and against Diablo since he could just one-shot all of them with his flame nova thing. A dozen skeletons all obliterated in a second.

[@HyperShadic0]

I feel like Ross should *_really_* learn how to use Cheat Engine for games that need it like Hellgate London and Clans. It's easy to use, works with pretty much everything except online-only games, and lets you make your own cheats. The program even has a built-in tutorial. It mostly only works for "crunchy" games where there are a lot of numbers to manipulate though; It's not really helpful for point and click adventure games for example.

[@Byrvurra]

I enjoy watching Ross suffer through these games the way the developer's intended. It's not fun if the first solution isn't to look up a text guide from 2001 and draw maps, and is instead to manipulate the memory.

[@DarkestMirrored]

Isn't the point of Game Dungeon to show off and in some way preserve old games? Cheating defeats the purpose.

[@tfaris1]

@@DarkestMirrored He's used cheats in at least one other Game Dungeon (Apocalyptica), though it was a god mode cheat built into the game, so different from using a memory editor I guess.

[@gestaltengine6369]

I thought he used it playing dark souls

[@bulutcagdas1071]

There may not be a cheat engine table for this specific game tho

[@facadeESEA]

i was like 17 or 18 when this came out and was basically marketed as "look, theres never gonna be a diablo 3, if you want a new diablo this is the best youre gonna get" lol

[@ImpromptuLeapfrog]

I played this once and didn't much like it. Like with you, it teased at my imagination, and I always wanted to get back to it... but I think you just saved me that pain. Thank you, Ross. I'm grateful.

[@Wannabe_Baby]

The point about swords being impractical but being part of a cultural tradition reminds me of this exchange from Blackadder Goes Forth, a sitcom set during the first World War: Blackadder: "Don't forget your stick, lieutenant." George: "Ah, quite right sir. Wouldn't want to face a machine gun without this!"

[@abrahamvonwaltstein8390]

Well it's official, Rossi sold his soul to make more game dungeon. Probably better than machinima though

[@brandonmorel2658]

This is like a twisted version of The Secret World. This is the hell version of that game.

[@gestaltengine6369]

The secret world already has hell. There are three hell dungeons and a realisation that there won't be any more story missions made for the game.

[@brandonmorel2658]

@@gestaltengine6369 You played through the game? I dont remember the video very well, but in the end Ross couldnt play the whole game because it shutdowns, right? He finishes his playthrough in Egypt, if I remember correctly.

[@gestaltengine6369]

@@brandonmorel2658 yes, played through it. It didn't shut down. Ross couldn't bring himself to play Egypt, because Egypt sucks and so does combat. Later he played through it to get to Transylvania and Tokyo, which are much better areas. It was after the game went f2p and introduced a major rework of combat.

[@brandonmorel2658]

@@gestaltengine6369, maybe he will revisit in a follow-up episode. I actually revisited the Secret World video and going through comments I saw one that said that Ross would play the game with fans in October 24 , so maybe he already played the f2p version of the game.

[@pagb666]

The most hilarious part is that you gave up before the worst part... The CTF vs AI mission!

[@PosthumanHeresy]

Ross would have had war flashbacks

[@KingLich451]

hahaha

[@alexzaehou]

Darn, I guess we'll have to save Last Stand: Union City for another time.

[@blackbeing7864]

When NPC-texts in game is so bad, you want to press "skip" even in video.

[@moshpitmachine]

They explained the swords and armor in the forums back in the day. Back when this was meant to be a franchise.... Back before it was flagshipped... Anyway, essentially the Templar are the traditional knights Templar. They have been monitoring and preparing for an invasion from hell since the middle ages. When it happened they stepped up. Advanced technology yadayada. The swords were both a sign of the order and served another purpose. Humans were driven underground, small arms did minimal damage as they were designed to fight humans. The monster healed faster than the bullets could hurt them so swords and other melee weapons cause large wounds and were harder to heal from

[@GeorgeMonet]

Except that's nonsense. The wound from a bullet, especially with explosive, or a shotgun shell, are far more traumatic than a sword or knife wound. Sword and knife wounds are pretty clean and can heal more quickly.

[@moshpitmachine]

​@@GeorgeMonetthat actually isn't true lol. Believe it or not I work in a trauma center in a hospital in NY. I have seen many, many bullet wounds.... And a few sword wounds if I'm being honest. The wound channel from a bullet is pretty simplistic. Your going to have a slightly expanded cavity near the end where energy is expelled. Unless it's a through and through. The wound channel of a bladed weapon is more difficult to deal with. You could have multiple points where the cut is deeper or shallower. Stab wounds act similar to bullets but more lateral damage. A sword your looking at the potential for large gaping wounds damaging multiple organs. Hell you could be looking at severed limbs and shit like that. So essentially you have to look at biology. Small arms fire might create alot of wound channels. But your fighting demons. If evil dead taught me anything you gotta chop those fuckers up

[@brandonatherton]

Basically Hellgate:London launched and was an amazing game and doing well, with a fantastic reception and reviews, but the economy hit a rough patch and as a small studio Flagship couldn't stay open. I don't remember specifics as I was a young high schooler at the time. So they shutdown online servers and cancelled the Tokyo (free) expansion. As soon as the shutdown happened there was a revival project being worked on by the community to bring MP back online, and at the very least it had some patches for bugs for SP. The game and it's files were sold to some Korean company however, and the project had to shutdown after legal threats. The Korean company made it "F2P" by making the first chapter free (about an hour for new players, 20 minutes for veterans). You could earn the tickets for each of the next acts somehow, but it was incredibly grindy, or something like that, again, don't remember specifics, but I do remember being so disappointed that one of my favorite games was ruined like that, as I was excited to play with others again and have the Tokyo content finally (plus things like Stonehenge which never made it to singleplayer despite being fully functional for a long time in multiplayer during the original launch). It was so bad we never actually got the Global release, hence all the cancellations on the chart, as these were tied to Resurrection. After the game inevitably flopped due to the poor monetization and gameplay restrictions, the community restarted the Revival project as London 2038. It has brought back MP, fixed tons of bugs, added in lots of missing content like Stonehenge in SP, and Tokyo, done tons of balance, and has been a passion project for many. During this, the SP version of the game was released on Steam by the Korean company, basically the original game with the added content they had finished, and some new stuff they had developed. But they had also introduced some glaring bugs, the most infamous being the 1 fps bug, which was intermittent at best for everyone, and for some people basically permanent from loading into the game. This version also doesn't work with the London 2038 patches because of those changes, sadly meaning you either have to have an original copy of the game or pirate it. Ultimately the Steam release was just a cash grab by the Korean company as a last ditch effort to at least break even. It has been a total flop, and they did basically no updates past the release of the game, so all the game breaking bugs are still in place, further proving they just wanted to try to make some more cash off of the IP.

[@pangoprime8674]

Dude that’s awesome thanks for that info!

[@Djorgal]

What? It did not have good reception and reviews at all. It had terrible reception. It was buggy and the gameplay repetitive. There wasn't a rough patch in the economy at the time. The game industry was doing great. It had 43% growth in 2007. Maybe too great for Hellgate London, because it had to compete with games like Bioschock, Mass effect, Portal, Assassin's creed, The Witcher, Crysis, Halo III, CoD Modern warfare, Team Fortress II, WoW,... and so on. Studio Flagship did not close because of a rough economy. They closed because they bet everything on Hellgate London and the game was a commercial failure.

[@AveSicarius]

@@Djorgal I mean it was reviewed well by gaming magazines BUT gaming magazines at the time were even more "you pay us and we give you a good review" than they are today, so that doesn't say much. I enjoyed playing it as a single player game when I was younger, but I would agree it released during a period of time when several groundbreaking and incredibly popular releases came out that probably did kill the game. If any WoW BC (which is what I was primarily playing at the time), Lineage, and the other large MMOs that were already an established, alongside the smaller, but still successful MMO's like Lord of the Rings online, Guild War's EotN (which I also played a significant amount of), and the metric tonne of F2P MMORPGs releasing like Nine Dragon's (which I also played). I enjoyed Hellgate London, but it certainly couldn't compete with the former games, and wasn't the same quality as the smaller games like Guild War's (which is quite varied in environment and mission objectives most of the time).

[@HallsteinI]

I've never heard someone describe Hellgate: London as an amazing game before. I played it when it came out and it was almost universally panned by critics and players alike. One could say that it had potential but I don't think that's a compliment for any game that manages to fall short, especially this one. It really just means it failed to be good at what it set out to do.

[@RevenTH]

...I just realized that this is also the place where I quit the game.

[@lemmingrad]

Likewise.

[@lordsuslik]

"Medieval detective who kills himself to solve crimes", that's awfully specific. Anybody figure out what game that would be?

[@gestaltengine6369]

Daemonica, maybe?

[@ladyhm.6748]

Planescape? Kind of a stretch.

[@LBPdude101]

@@gestaltengine6369 you got it!

[@dingdongbells3314]

6:26 OH MAI LORD, Xfire, now that's one hell of a flashback I forgot about

[@planescaped]

Xfire sounds really familiar... I think I used it in 9th grade.

[@roadent217]

17:41 "What do they eat?" Who are you? Shamus Young? MrBTongue? Will you write a guest post on TwentySided?

[@UpToSpeedOnJaguar]

One of my all time favorite nostalgia trips. Loved this game. Those CGI clips hold their value and quality even today. I listened to my first Sabaton song mashed up to these cinematics. I'm still awaiting a quality remake of this game, that will honestly probably never come. It always HAD the makings of a good game, but never quite stuck the landing.

[@krodmandoon3479]

Yeah, this game "probably" won't get remade.

[@ZomgLolPants]

I remember when this came out there was a ton of confusion because the marketing was incredibly bad and people thought it was an mmorpg for some reason.

[@schwaulen]

I'd love a Dungeon on EYE Divine Cybermancy. That game is wildly underrated. Also a First Person RPG thing.