How Dressage's Love Affair With The Outside Rein Can Damage A Good Horse

[@rauldeleon4863]

This videos demonstrate a loose ended relationship between horse and rider. The key to good horsemanship is not the manipulation of the reins but the establishment of a supple seat that enables the rider to control the horse by the development of the strength of the hindquarters, thus making the use of invisible aids from the rider's hands possible.The joy of good horse training is to enjoy the powerful but controlled movements of the horse. Only a well develop athletic and supple seat will make that possible. The rest is illusory at best.

[@RossJacobs]

I definitely disagree with your comment and I believe that approach is one reason why so many dressage horses are not soft or emotionally comfortable . The need to establish a brilliant feel from the reins should be established before introducing the rider's seat and legs as the primary aids to direct a horse. I've ridden a lot of dressage horses where a rider's seat and legs have been the primary connection to the horse from the early training. They are inevitably not soft in the same way that a horse that was started with a clear understanding of how to follow the feel of the reins through its thoughts. The problem is that the seat and legs are very crude and imprecise aids compared to a feel through the reins. A change in the smallest rein contact can have meaning to a horse in a way that seat and legs can not. When you start too early with directing a horse using a rider's seat and legs there is a lack of clarity to the horse. But the reins can be very precise and quiet, yet provide superb clarity to the horse. So I always advise that we should first establish brilliance off the reins and after that we start with teaching the feel from the seat legs. In that way the reins can help create clarity of what is being asked when we do use seat and legs as aids. The reins transition from being the primary aid (in the early training) to being a supporting aid to the seat and legs (in the more advanced training stage). I can tell you with absolute certainty that establishing brilliance from the reins first creates the softest and most comfortable rides for a horse. I've tried it both ways and my experience (and the experience of my students) gives me no reason to go back to training with seat and legs in the beginning. That comes later. I would like ask if you think it damages a horse to follow the feel of the reins before teaching them to follow the seat and legs. If so, how does it hinder a horse's training, performance, and/or welfare? Thank you for your thoughts

[@rauldeleon4863]

@@RossJacobs I very much respect you as an honest and dedicated horseman. I am glad that you are achieving your goals with your approach. However I believe you should respect the discipline of dressage which you certainly have given evidence that you do not understand and are not able to practice.

[@RossJacobs]

@@rauldeleon4863 on the contrary I respect dressage very much for what it can do for horses and riders. But I don't respect a lot of what is passing for dressage these days - particularly in competition. The ideals of dressage are fantastic, but the practices so often are a disappointment and don't come close to the ideals. A lot of what is called dressage nowadays has lost its way. I am a person who questions everything and something has to be proved to me before I accept it. It is not enough that somebody says it is correct - whether Baucher or Hester. So for you to say I don't understand dressage is to me just a silly thing to say because I study and practice and test everything before I comment on it. Maybe it is you that does not understand. I'm happy to debate a topic, but I don't see the point in you simply accusing me of not understanding. That is not productive and you have no idea if its true. If you have a criticism then debate the point. If you can't rationally defend or debate or explain your point what is the purpose of even commenting?

[@rauldeleon4863]

@@RossJacobs This is my last message on the topic. None of the videos that I have seen of your training show a supple horse and rider moving together with impulsion and demonstrating correct training exercises. That is the reason I do not think your critiques of dressage have a credible point of view., I have sixty years of experience teaching Riders and training horses in the disciplines of dressage, jumping and eventing. I count among my students the youngest Rider to win an Individual Olympic and Panamerican Gold Medal in Eventing and several other students who represented their countries in the Olympics. Have given dressage and jumping clinics in seven countries sponsored by the FEI and Olympic Solidarity.My students and horses were selected as demonstrators in the De Nemethy Method video series.My training has received world wide recognition and acclaim.All serious dressage practitioners enjoy progress but always aspire to improve their skills.Today's top dressage Riders, Trainers and horses are superior to anything that preceded them in history.All equestrian disciplines are evolving to a better standard as is the breeding of sport horses.

[@RossJacobs]

@@rauldeleon4863 your list of accomplishments is not of interest in a world of modern dressage. Even many heroes of the sport are modern dressage's strongest critics. Oliveira, Mendez, Klimke, de Kunffy to name a few. You seem unable to explain why you are correct in your approach, but instead just try to boast about your students. Explain to me why your horses think you are right and not why somebody sitting in a judge's box with the FEI rule book in their hand think you are right.

[@brucepeek3923]

It gets worse for dressage horses if they are stuck with a dressage rider that uses a fixed outside rein.. The way to use the outside rein is to pulse it in the riders hand. The rider should open his lower finger- in his fist- in time with the horses inside hind leg coming forward. This is especially easy to use if the rider also takes a feel of the horses side with his inside leg as he posts up in the riding trot.. The rider should continue releasing on the outside rein in a pulsed way as they feel of the horses inside with the riders inside leg even when they are sitting the trot. So that you always ride the horses forwards in a continuos envelope of release.. The rider continuing to feel of the horses inside flank with the riders inside leg as the inside leg comes forward is something that the late Carl Mikolka - former chief rider of the Spanish Riding school used to teach - you can't get much more classical than that. best Bruce Peek

[@brucepeek3923]

Used long enough- a fixed outside rein will cause a brace to start with - and then if it continues cause compressed back muscles- damaging the longus collii muscle and eventually kissing spines. Thats why dressage horses have to have so much chiropractic work- to repair the wreckage caused by messed up German dressage theory. best Bruce Peek

[@alicewalters7056]

I love your training techniques - gentle pressence. I enjoy your videos. Thanks. Blessings.

[@amandasawyer4784]

Great video Ross. This has certainly given me a lot to think about. Thank you 😊

[@JD7980]

Ross, just discovered you/ you are amazing

[@StephanieHill]

I think, though, this is mainly due to dressage wanting you to use a "symphony of combined aids" whereas western is about isolated aids: hand without leg, leg without hand. If you used a "synchronized symphony" with the dressage horse, he would have stepped to the side. Simultaneously, in dressage, you want your horses position of the poll and direction of travel to not necessarily coincide. And I say that as someone who always struggles to use the outside rein properly. ;) It's also meant to control degree of bend, degree of elevation and speed, as it's impact travels through the horse's back diagonally and influences how much the inner hind leg steps under/forward.

[@RossJacobs]

I understand what you are saying because it has been the mantra of dressage for decades. However, as I point out in the video, the problem is that the horse does not think where it is being asked to go, so it drifts to the outside. Applying the outside rein does not fix the problem that the horse is thinking of turning in the opposite direction to the feel of the inside rein. Dressage is interested mostly in the mechanics of movement and obedience (as are most disciplines despite the rhetoric to the contrary). Good training and riding is about the horse's idea and the rider's idea being the same and involves directing the horse's thought so that his feet flow with minimum resistance. As for the outside rein controlling the bend, again this is a misunderstanding of the inside rein. If a horse has learned to follow the feel of the inside rein the bend is proportionate to the feel of the inside rein. A horse does not bend any more or less than the inside rein is asking because if it does it is not following the feel of the rein, but instead reacting to a cue. The issue with bringing the horse together with help from the outside rein is valid, EXCEPT that first the basics must be covered before that can be achieved. In this case, the basics of following the inside rein are missing and need to be established. Later on, a more sophisticated style of turning can be taught, but not before the basics are consolidated. Never lose the basics.

[@bonananaa4611]

I agree that Lateral Flexion can cause problems with the horse's straightness/balance/etc; and that we need to guide/direct a horse's thought when riding.... A lot of that is the riders fault though (as always) due to incorrect understanding, and execution. But I disagree that rein(left or right) should = move. The original intention for Lateral Flexion, was to release/stretch the horse's poll so it isn't so stiff. Stiffness in the poll can cause a lot of issues (hard mouth, leaning on the bit, incorrect posture, & pain.. just to name a few) But people lost their way with how to "Flex" their horse's poll properly. Now, they over-bend, as you mentioned before. Regarding one of your earlier videos too -- you mentioned not seeing any benefit to bending the neck, whilst keeping the legs still. Well, the above could be one benifet. And maybe chiropractic reasons, like stretching the muscles etc. But apart from that... yes, it's pointless. However.. I feel that Flexion, Rein contact, and movement of the feet.. should not all be linked together. Most problems with horses are linked to incorrect riders. Not the actual signal, cue, or technique itself. You also mentioned long ago in previous comments: 1• "..The rider, with use of the reins, seat and legs control the balance, movement of the feet and posture of the horse. None of that is true." 2• "..if you teach one thing, a horse is incapable of also giving a rider the other. This is not correct." My response to your beliefs are: 1• Actually, all of those things DO somewhat control the posture & feet of a horse. Just to back that up: m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/n6TXk5aYabN3asU m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/pmHVi6GaopyHgMk It is not very reasonable to a compare a horse at ease in a field - to a horse that is out of his natural habitat, with someone on his back. Horses without weight from above, move very differently to horses that have something heavy sitting on them. So, judging from that knowledge - it would appear we affect their movement quite a lot. It's up to us to develope techniques which help the animal & not hinder it. 2• Correct! You made a very good point. Yes, moving toward rein pressure should be taught to uneducated horses, by directing their thought etc. That'd be the foundation. But the majority of your aids shouldn't come from the rein. Just because the head holds the horse's brain, does not mean you should direct all of your attention there. That in itself is an "imbalance". Even horses in the field will direct energy to certain points on their mates body. (Example: a bite on the rump = move forward. Bite on the shoulder = "turn away from me") In actuality - the head is the most sensitive body part on the horse. If anything, we should focus on it a little less. m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnivXotnnLOWfMU (Btw, 2 people I look up to the most - Yourself & Warrick Schiller! You see the horse's mind, without viewing them as an object. I love that.) So in short; By using only the reins to turn the animal - you are applying a command through pulling, rather than "directing or guiding" him. Simultaneously, this causes the horse to focus solely on his direction (What you are "telling" it), so much so that he can lose his balance. The other thing was.. there are times when you need to be still (Ex. Mounting a horse). So if you accidentally (since we all make mistakes) put pressure on the rein, & your horse knows to "move" -- there are all kinds of dangerous things that could happen with that. Which is why it makes more sense for "Go" to mean Go, through leg aids. Not rein. I feel there needs to be more balance in the horse world, where trainers are not putting too much emphasis on one thing. No matter who you are - there's always a different way to do something. Problems source from a riders understanding/or misunderstanding. From their own mind - not from the actual actions they are performing. To end a VERY VEEERRRRYYY long comment!!!!: I very much so enjoy your videos, & look forward to seeing more of them - make us think!

[@RossJacobs]

Thanks for your comments. I will do my best to respond to your main points. However, I do find you comments very jumbled and I'm unsure what points you are trying to make sometimes. But I will do my best. "The original intention for Lateral Flexion, was to release/stretch the horse's poll so it isn't so stiff." I agree that the flexion can be an aid in stretching and softening the poll. But I fail to understand why you feel it is important that a horse stand still through the flexing. You don't clarity why flexing AND yielding the hindquarters hinders relaxation of the poll. I see no benefit to locking the feet while flexing and see a few problems (as I stated in the video). If you want to explain why movement hinders the benefits of the flexion, please explain. # "However.. I feel that Flexion, Rein contact, and movement of the feet.. should not all be linked together. " # # Okay, but why? I have explained why they should be linked (at least in teaching the basics of rein control), but you # don't say they should not. # # "You also mentioned long ago in previous comments: 1• "..The rider, with use of the reins, seat and legs control the # balance, movement of the feet and posture of the horse. None of that is true." # #2• "..if you teach one thing, a horse is incapable of also giving a rider the other. This is not correct."" I am not sure the context these quotes came from. However, with regard to: 1. The rider does not control anything regarding the horse and its movement. The rider only conveys intent of what the rider would like the horse to do with its balance, movement, posture, etc. It is the BRAIN of the horse that controls these things, not the rider's cues. So I can teach a horse to go forward by apply seat and leg pressure if the brain of the horse interprets that 'forward' is my intent. But I can also teach a horse to go forward by pulling on the reins (and no leg) if the brain of the horse interprets that 'forward' is my intent. 2. This quote seems out of context and I am unsure what particularly I was referring to when I made it. But I will say that a horse can learn a single response to many cues. For example, application of a rider's leg can mean 'go forward'. But also a cluck can mean 'go forward. So too can a pull on a horse's tail or twist of the left ear. I can crack a whip and bring a horse towards me and I can also crack a whip and send it away. It's all dependent on the clarity of my intent. So I can cue a piaffe by doing the exact opposite of what Charlotte Dujardin does and if the brain of my horse understands my intent clearly enough it will happen. # "In actuality - the head is the most sensitive body part on the horse. If anything, we should focus on it a little less. # # m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnivXotnnLOWfMU # # (Btw, 2 people I look up to the most - Yourself & Warrick Schiller! You see the horse's mind, without viewing them as # an object. I love that.) # # So in short; # By using only the reins to turn the animal - you are applying a command through pulling, rather than "directing or # guiding" him. Simultaneously, this causes the horse to focus solely on his direction (What you are "telling" it), so much # so that he can lose his balance. " The head is not sensitive. The eyes are sensitive. The brain is sensitive. But the bone, muscle, and skin of the head are no more sensitive than the legs. # "By using only the reins to turn the animal - you are applying a command through pulling, rather than "directing or # guiding" him. Simultaneously, this causes the horse to focus solely on his direction (What you are "telling" it), so much # so that he can lose his balance. "" I could not disagree with this statement more strongly. Again, you seem to believe that the rider is controlling the horse's body. It is the fundamental basis of all that I do that this is not true. The rider only can influence the brain. A rider's aids (reins, seat, legs, whip, voice, etc) are only to clarify the rider's intention to the mind of the horse. They make nothing happen IF the mind of the horse does not interpret them as we wish. So applying more inside leg does not create lateral movement or cause the inside hind leg to reach further if the horse's brain does not interpret them to mean those things and create a new thought. Without our aids triggering a new thought in the mind of the horse we are riding a boat without a rudder. Using the inside rein to ask a horse to turn is intended to get a change of thought in a horse to change direction. If you don't do that you are bullying a horse around a corner and it will definitely be unbalanced and not following the line of the turn. The only way to create a correct turn is for the horse's thoughts to follow the line of the turn - since a horse is always trying to do what its primary thought is thinking. In Warwick's video, he is talking about using pressure to encourage a horse to go away or go with the feel. We should always be trying to teach a horse to go WITH the pressure. It's the difference between what I call driving versus directing a horse. You might watch this video to get a more detailed explanation kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIOumIpticeIq9k I know I probably have not answered all your concerns, but I'm not clear about what some of your points where. In any case, I hope I cleared up my views on some of your comments. Cheers

[@NoThankUBeQuiet]

I'd like to see the pleasure horse perform a canter pirouette or heck it's a 2nd level horse I wont be picky with you a decent shoulder in.

[@RossJacobs]

If a dressage horse can't even follow the feel of the inside rein, why do you care about it doing a canter pirouette. What is any movement without the basics being in place first?

[@SLOROB55]

Thank you. I don’t want to tell my trainer to go and jump. BUT, I here inside rein is over rated. She needs to move off your inside leg. Head down comes from outside rein. Golly wow?!?

[@VersatileHorsemanship]

Makes a lot of sense

[@lemonkid180]

Does western neck reining do the same thing to a horse? Is it just as bad?

[@RossJacobs]

No, neck reining is different. To turn a horse from a neck rein is to apply a cue, not to follow a feel. Before a horse can learn to correctly neck rein, it must first learn to correctly follow the feel of the inside rein with its thought. Once this is established, first ask with the indirect rein against the outside of the horse's neck and follow with the inside rein (which has already been taught). Do it again - first outside neck rein and supported by direct inside rein. Again and again. Soon the horse will connect the dots that application of the outside rein against the neck means think to the inside and turn to the inside. Be aware that neck reining is not putting pressure on the bit or horse's mouth. It is simply the touch of the outside rein against the neck. Whereas in dressage, the outside rein exerts pressure on the bit and horse's mouth. The way these two techniques are used and the feel they offer to the horse are very different. I hope that helps.

[@loredelore7286]

I would say there will be a lot of offended dressage experts in the comments! Inside leg to outside rein is one of the most overused and misinterpreted expressions used in the dressage fraternity. Imagine if you never used the inside rein, where would your horse go? Unfortunately people never questioned this and still don't.

[@sallyannefrancis8647]

Should the reins just guide you and your seat bones and legs direct the horse other wise the horse is not using their hind quarters ? would the horse be on the forehand ? the outside rein only used to stop the falling in ??? Urrgh slightly confused more help needed !!! to much outside rein is wrong (Fact)...... When you turn you must see his eye the direction you are going... Hope i am getting this !!!

[@RossJacobs]

As I said in the video, if the horse is not thinking in the direction of travel it is wrong. In most cases, it takes the inside rein to direct the horse's thought. The reason people are taught to apply the outside rein is to prevent the shoulders drifting to the outside - the outside rein acts like a fence. But the horse drifts to the outside because of poor training to follow the inside rein with its thought. The outside rein addresses the symptom, but not the cause of the problem. Therefore, using outside rein to stop the outside drift will perpetuate the conflict between what the horse is wanting to do (drift to the outside) and what the rider wants it to do (turn to the inside). With regard to being on the forehand, using inside or outside rein does not address that issue. That is a matter of balance that is worked through by helping a horse to understand to re-balance in preparation for a turn - such as using a halt halt.

[@sallyannefrancis8647]

@@RossJacobs Thank you for the reply. I will take your advice and practice this. Thankyou.

[@leealexander3507]

I used reins the other day. They weren't especially useful since Sweetheart has been ridden tackless for three years.

[@RossJacobs]

If the reins were not very effective to relay your intent to your horse, then there is a hole in your horse's education. The reins are the most accurate and precise tool we have to talk to our horse when riding. It's great that your horse works from your seat/legs, but it is not enough. When you need to make minor corrections to ensure precisions and accuracy of a movement there are no alternatives that are better than the reins to do this.

[@leealexander3507]

@@RossJacobs The reins work fine but riding him tackless works just as well. I've had him long enough to have reached a good understanding with each other. He's not really a riding horse due to a serious paddock injury as a six year old so you're right. His training as a riding horse is pretty much non existent. He's only been used as a breeding stallion that I get on now and then.

[@punkaakee]

Your horse is behind your leg

[@RossJacobs]

The horse belonged to the lady in the helmet and was at the clinic because of problems. It was only slightly behind the leg, but that was the least of its problems. The bigger problems were it's heaviness to the reins, crookedness and worst of all its anxiety anytime the reins were touched. Quite an unhappy horse. The video was edited to focus on the one problem of leaking to the outside. The other issues that we addressed during the clinic were not part of this video.

[@nataliedownes5177]

I’m not sure what your point here is. Of course if you pull the reins left and right the horse will fall out through the shoulder. That’s why you never do that. The bridle is a guide, the steering comes through your body. If there’s crookedness etc etc, it’s rider who’s causing it. Subtly is the key.