The 💢BIG💢 Problem with the Classic Traveller RPG (and How to Fix It).

[@alexsala1416]

This content is my jam! OG Traveller characters become 'more powerful' by gaining access to better gear/ships/contacts. I think Marc Miller (writer) was thinking of characters that actually depreciated in play. Stats could drop, injuries accumulate. Age itself crept up on the Characters. The point was to see how well you could do before retiring. Sid Meier's Pirates-style. Every subsequent ruleset has had some form of advancement, although it often took so long that entire campaigns could be over before a PC went from Gun Combat 3 to 4. Mathematically, the system doesn't really have a lot of room for characters to advance. I think the reason Traveller is so beloved is that it was one of the first rulesets that gave players the tools to generate endless galaxies, systems, planets, trading houses, mercenary companies and so on and laid out the structure of an implied setting.

[@DanHigdon]

I never thought of it from a "Call of Cthulhu" perspective. The idea that your characters are on a time limit due to aging effects, and the 2-term character may not have a lot of skills, but they have a lot more time to "play" before they really need to retire. Already retired characters have all the skills and money they might need, but relatively little time to use those in. For me, I never missed advancement in Traveller because in my teenage mind, Han Solo never leveled up, and he was awesome, so it's ok. Luke was different - he was just starting his career, and took time off to find the Degobah Psionics Institute. :)

[@loconius]

There was a game called Leverage and one of the things I liked about it was experience was less about improving stats and more about curbing bad rolls, each experience “point” could be spent to reroll a bad roll. I think Heavy Gear also had a similar system, and it’s what I would use for traveller if I ever run a campaign. Considering your time scale notes above I think that makes some sense now, the PCs just don’t have all that time to level up vs. prepare for retirement.

[@DanHigdon]

​@@loconius I played Heavy Gear and actually found it stressful as a player to use XP for both rerolls and advancement. :) I do really like the idea of Traveller characters being given "hero points" to spend on rerolls though. The question is, do it "Pathfinder Style" where you get one per session, or Silhouette Style where you earn them for in-game actions. (Or both?)

[@loconius]

@@DanHigdon I wasn’t a huge fan of splitting them like that either, I would have XP only used for rerolls, and leave advancement to actual in game activities on the part of the player characters

[@Ratenef]

One could also argue that the leveling up is front loaded in this game, and that would reinforce why someone would continue to re-enlist for as long as they could...to give themselves the best character to begin with, at the risk of dying off and having to start over.

[@RobBrennan]

Since 1977 Classic Traveller has had a skill/attribute advancement system, it is quite short and limited but it is there. It is on p40 in Book 2 of CT, "Experience". However I see you illustrated your video with the CT Starter Set which omitted a very small number of items from the full rules, including this "Experience" rule. Every other version of CT includes it - Basic Set, Deluxe and The Traveller Book.

[@MichaelSchgowiz]

The industry was still less than 10 years old, and still figuring things out. It's easy to apply 20/20 hindsight to something that was created by wargamers in the 76/77 timeframe.

[@RPGElite]

That's exactly it since I have said from video #1 that was the set I was going off of for the series. It's even more odd that the Starter Set omitted it but every other set had it.

[@Lustvig]

Yes ... this .

[@nuparadigm4419]

What you are missing regarding “the comment” is the original mindset of the Traveller system. It was the original generic space roleplaying system. In the first few years there was no established setting, which was why house rules on anything not in the book was the expectation of both the GDW people and the player base. Star Wars and Star Trek were vying for top billing, with Dune and others in the mix too. The whole Imperium setting was just starting due to complaints to GDW from those that preferred not to have to use house rules. But most of us early players played in sectors created whole cloth from Book 3 by Referees that just had stories and ideas to share. You need to realize Traveller came out when the only computer most people had seen was on the TV, or perhaps they knew someone with a TRS-80 or more rarely an IBM PC. Science fiction was mostly found in books, comics, TV and movies. Not much in games of any kind. Until Traveller! Those with a mind for sci-fi that found Traveller went crazy with it! My first Traveller Referee found the game right at the end of our freshman year of HS. He went nuts over the summer, making a full 6 sectors, with all the worlds generated, political entities mapped out, current major events, well over a dozen plot lines planned, etc… Like I said he went crazy with it. Before you judge “the comment” try to understand that most game companies were filled with nerds and computer geeks with little or no customer service skills or even any idea what that even was. They were catering a brand new revolutionary product to and for people just like them. They had learned no consideration yet for their customer base. They were total newbies in a brand new industry. It was an exciting time, especially at conventions in the midwest. Things got pretty wild if you knew the right people to hang with, or just lucked into helping the right person at the right time like I did.

[@chrisdonovan8795]

I can see the argument for no advancement if you look at it like Star Trek. The characters didn't change their abilities much. Spock's mindmeld changed to fit plots. Still, you're right that people need to feel comfortable with changing rules once they grasp the rules fully.

[@landoe2846]

I started with Mongoose Traveller and it has down time training. Basically when you have downtime during jumps you spent hours training and could improve on what you trained in.

[@rogerb181]

We do this too.

[@davidlee3311]

The lack of character progression never bothered my gaming table. It reflects E C Tubb`s Dumarest saga books. The main character does not ever really get better, he just goes through adventures. Also, it is not the only game that doesn`t have mechanical character progression, Electric Bastionland, a modern game, does not have a one either. The growth in character is the experiences they have, the places they go, and the new contacts they make.

[@btrenninger1]

Exactly, the characters are as mature as they are going to get.

[@btrenninger1]

@@paulgauthier7033 Sure, but Traveller is a game with rules reflective of a genre. It is not real life and was never intended to be such. It's a game. Chess also lacks character progression in terms of a piece's function. This is not only not a problem but a feature that makes the game work.

[@kaylaa2204]

@@btrenninger1not to be pedantic but chess kind of does if you consider pawn promotion to be a sort of level advancement

[@btrenninger1]

@@kaylaa2204 Good point. Pawn promotion is a kind of progression. Though, I don't think it really changes the overall conclusion.

[@quantus5875]

Great video!! Yes -- Your Mercenary idea and tips are great!! We kind of did something similar when I played Traveller 1e back in the day. We also had a rule that you could only do this (go after a skill point) like once after the completion of a few adventures or after like 2 years (I forget the exact time frame), another thing we did is that characters would infrequently get advanced technical items -- which is a way of making the character more powerful.

[@gregferguson7737]

Dragon magazine had a house rule for skill advancement. It really was excellent. If anyone wants, I will dig it up from one of my magazines.

[@RPGElite]

Do it! 😋

[@gregferguson7737]

@@RPGElite took a bit to find it. Dragon Magazine #55 - Filling in Skills p. 52. While I strongly honour copyright this was November 1981...so...anyway here's the important bits typed in (keeping to the format with line breaks). "During the course of an adventure, whenever a player’s character uses a skill successfully in a trying situation (hits an oppo- nent in combat, flies a ship through hazardous conditions, etc.), he notes this on his character sheet (a small tick mark for each successful usage pencilled in beside the skill listing is the easibut est way to do this). Then, after the adventure, when he has time to relax and learn from his experience, the character may at tempt to improve the skill in question by one level. This will require a number of days of practice equivalent to the number Of the skill level being practiced for. (For example, to advance from level 2 to level 3 in a skill area takes 3 days of practice.) A maximum of two skills can be practiced in this manner at one time. At the end of this practice period, the player makes an experience roll to see if he has improved the skill by one level. The experience roll required is equal to: (3 - Present skill level) + (# of times skill was used) The player must roll this number or less on 2d6 to successfully make the experience roll. A DM of -1 is applied if the character’s intelligence is 8 to 12, and a DM of -2 if it is 13 or more. The referee may also award any other reasonable DMs he sees fit (some skills would be easier to increase than others). In any event, a roll of “2” is always successful (as long as the skill was used at least once since it was last raised), and a roll of “12” is always failure, regardless of DMs. ... Limitations on skills When judging how adept a character is with a given skill, the referee must make some kind of decision about just what each skill level represents. In my campaign, I have rated each skill level as follows: Novice, skill level 0: The character has no real knowledge of the skill in question and may receive certain penalties (especially in combat) because of this, as noted in the Traveller rules: Inexperienced, skill level 1/2: The individual may have some vague knowledge of the skill in question, but has no formal training in it. This level will not give him bonuses, but will prevent him from receiving non-proficiency penalties in combat, as noted in Traveller. Above average, skill level 1: The individual has an above-average knowledge of the skill in question, enough to use it in an elementary manner. Knowledgeable, skill level 2: The individual has a good background knowledge of the skill and can use it fairly well (with a reasonable bonus) in most situations. Adept, skill level 3: The individual has a good back- ground knowledge of the skill in question and has mastered some of the more intricate workings of it. He is qualified to obtain a job using this skill. Expert, skill level 4: The individual has profuse knowledge of almost all areas of the skill in question and has no difficulty finding a job using this skill if one is available. Master, skill level 5 or higher: The individual is a veritable encyclopedia of knowledge on the skill in question and understands its most intricate workings with ease. He will be a leader in any field involving the use of this skill and may well be much sought after. He does not need to look for jobs using this skill; they are made for him. Obviously, when considering skills in this light, there must be some realistic limitation on how high a skill level can be increased, either through the prior service tables or through experience (if the experience rules above are used). Thus, the following rule: Once a character begins increasing a skill beyond level 5, it will no longer go up by a full level for each increase. Instead, it will increase by a fraction. To move from level x to level y when x is 5 or more will take a number of steps, according to the formula: Skill lncrease = 1 / (x / 2)"

[@quantus5875]

@@gregferguson7737 Kind of like skill progression in Call of Cthulhu. I'd tweak these rules a little as sounds like skill progression is a little too generous this way. Why go more than two terms in one of the services (and start with an older character) -- if the skill progression method is too generous.

[@Mcbuzz37]

I've played and run Traveller since the early 1980s. We quickly house ruled the heck out if the game. One thing we did when letting characters learn new skills was to allow them to buy training simulator modules that they could use during the downtime when the ship was in Jump space (imagine that scene in Star Wars where Luke is practicing his light saber with the drone). This could get you to level 1 in a skill after enough weeks of training. We also allowed level 0 skill (know enough to use the skill but not enough to get a bonus). Level zero was what you had when you were still working on the training. Once they built up enough weeks they could up the skill to level 1. Anything higher than 1 took a trainer and a focused training program. The other things that they were allowed to advance through training was Strength, Dex or Endurance (but never more than 1 point). Education score could also be increased with training but it was increasingly difficult to go up the higher the skill was. Intelligence was a fixed score that didn't change. Lastly, we used Social Standing as a flexible score that could increase or decrease depending on the characters reputation...Commit a lot of crimes? The Referee would lower your Social Standing score. Become "big dam heroes" of the sector and your score could go up one or two.

[@torenatkinson1986]

You say at 4:35 "The only way for [the character] to grow is to...go through these adventures and...get better at their stats/attributes/skills... that's what roleplaying is, that's a part of the role-playing...." I can see it both ways actually. I have absolutely no problem with my character not levelling up, not getting more skill points, not advancing mechanically. I do the role-playing games for the fun sense of mystery and adventure (aka storytelling) and social interaction. In D&D my character may get an extra bonus to Charisma when they reach level four and that may help with getting higher results on die rolls, but that doesn't affect my role-playing of the character. In fact, my character may develop in more interested ways if my stats get worse (you see this in Call of Cthulhu). Maybe my character gets an arm chopped off and I lose some dexterity, or maybe they have levels taken away by an undead creature and they become dumber or weaker and now I have to change the way I play this character, adapt to this new situation, and role-play in a way I didn't before. that's an evolution - a growth in the roleplay. So in fact it is true that the player does get better, just like any other skill that they practice, like building machines or making KZbin videos, so too with role-playing. You play Traveller or any RPG for 7 years...hopefully you've advanced as a roleplayer in that time. But, yes, levelling up is also a fun part of role-playing games... you get to increase your skills, have a better chance of hitting when you attack and doing more damage and getting new spells and Powers etc etc. But I myself don't need any of that when I'm role-playing a fun and interesting character. Anyway that's my take, keep doing what you do!

[@torenatkinson1986]

By the way, I've played a lot of games, but never played Traveller. Heard good things about it for years and years though! You know I crushed that like button for you!

[@stewi009]

I was thinking the same thing. There are two types of "role" to "play" in a "roleplaying" game. The personality of your character, i.e.: their ROLE in the story being told, and the mechanical/skill position they fill in the group, ie: their ROLE in the party. Your role might seen as the noble hero or the duplicitous scoundrel, OR it might be seen as the marine captain (tank) or the psion or w/e. Both ways of looking at it are acceptable of course, it's about how you want to play the game. If your primary interest in roleplaying is the personality - the character growth and story arc stuff - then the lack of mechanical advancement should be of little consequence. Your character can learn the value of friendship and become a better person without anything changing on the sheet. He can endeavor to save the day vs the BBEG regardless, and the struggle might arguably be even MORE dramatic if the character is not getting mechanically more powerful along the way. If your concern is primarily about the role you fill in the party, that's where improving mechanics and gaining abilities comes in. You want to get better at filling your place in the group. But even then, I can see an argument of improving as a player rather than as a character, because you can learn (as a player) to use what you're given more efficiently. None of this is to say that there's anything wrong with adding character advancement rules to the game if you want them. But I think there can also be value is shifting your perspective to see what the game devs were trying to accomplish. Learning new ways to role play and to approach the concept of storytelling can only serve to improve how you roleplay in ANY game system.

[@boriscat1999]

I picked up Traveller for the first time last year. I got a good deal on a print-on-demand of "Classic Traveller Facsimile Edition", which is books 1-3 with errata applied. It's pretty cool but your tips are going to make things so much better for me. thank you!

[@rogerb181]

The author was quoted as saying at the end of an adventure in Traveller the character should have earned some credits, gained an interesting item, and have a cool story to share. Somewhere on the Traveller lore they added in skill level advancement, but it came later.

[@AJPickett]

Back in ye day, when I and my teenage buddies were playing Traveller (along with AD&D, Palladium and such) we never even noticed the lack of a level progression system, because it made no difference to how we played the game at all. It took decades for the player characters to get to the level of skills, connections and resources they have when we start play and the game had interplay between the characters and the setting for the game built into the character creation system, so, with all due respect to your opinion, I have to disagree to your premise that there MUST be level progression for a game to be a roleplaying game system. Love your work sir, but I choose option One.

[@SoloRPGDigitalist]

I played when it was released. I still remember seeing it for the first time in the store. Anyway, we never thought/worried about character progression. We also played “that other game” at the time so we were aware of levels etc. We just found it awesome to be able to go to other planets and try to take over ships etc.

[@derekburge5294]

I'm with you for the most part here, and I personally like the pay-to-train model as a solution. Though that can also mess with the game's economy as it were... Would need to try it. To play devil's advocate, Traveller came out hot on the heels of OG Star Trek and clearly draws inspiration from those old scifi serials, and Kirk never leveled up. Flash Gordon didn't pick up new weapon proficiencies. The designers might have been thinking more along those lines than wargaming and the like.

[@RocktCityTim]

As a long term referee/GM of Traveller (started at the beginnings), we always saw our characters are "one shot" characters. Each real player would launch a new character for each mission. But, back in the day, the available preconceived scenarios/missions were pretty slim. On ship in the early 80s, we did have a campaign that was started and ran for 2-1/2 years (tracking the Ancients). For that campaign, I did weigh improvements as well as reductions in character performance. For example, for a character that scored serious damage while using a body pistol over multiple events, I'd bump their Gun Combat stat +1. For a character that took high levels of damage, I would combine their recovery against their STR and END as well as the level of medic that they had access to, and that could cause a reduction in things like END, STR, and SOC. When we did finally get into Mercenaries and High Guard, we evolved into those mechanics with me rolling a stash of NPCs that would be able to offer training events. BTW - the original Mercenary was an orange title and High Guard was Blue 👍.

[@pauldemelto6650]

I thought you were going to give an alternate space combat system. This is a non issue for people who are capable of playing a character rather than a super hero.

[@RPGElite]

All of which makes absolutely no sense, but do your thang.👍🏿

[@theryanrockett]

Never heard of this game but this makes me wanna try it out

[@landoe2846]

The character generation is fun. Go for the Mongoose versions. It has a progression system. I’d buy the new Mongoose traveller 2nd.

[@quantus5875]

Character creation was so fun! It was like a little mini-game in itself. Super innovative for its time. And I loved that there was a pro and a con of going on a service for a long time. Did you want a younger character with fewer skills or an older character with more skills. The Mercenary (Army and Marines) and High Guard (Navy) made this even more fun -- and there were supplements to create stuff like pirates, diplomats, nobles, wet Navy, air Air Force, Barbarian, Hunter, etc.

[@TheMajorActual]

When that comment was made, "role-playing games" were still very new, and no one really understood what made a good RPG structure. Good GMs at the time all noticed it, and we all homebrewed our own solutions for it, rather than asking the designers for help - my solution involved the player recording every successful use of a skill; after ten successes, they got a "Training Point" (TP) for that skill. After getting ten TPs, the Player rolled 7+ on 2d6 (adding the skill number they were trying to boost); if they succeeded, that Skill increased by one point - if they failed, they didn't lose their TPs, and the next time they used that Skill, their "old TP's" would add +1 for every ten TPs that they had banked. The TPs then went back to zero. They could do this for every skill. Acquiring _new_ skills involved finding someone with at least the _Instruction-1_ skill, who also had at least 1 point in the skill they were trying to use. Ten successful rolls in a one-month period would grant the Character Level-0 in that Skill (meaning that it eliminated their -3 penalty), and they could then work to raise it with TPs. Alternately, they could apply (or pay) a school to teach them that skill in a classroom environment - in 2d6+3 months, they would gain Level-1 in that skill. Prices varied.

[@quantus5875]

Yep -- your house rule sounds good!! The only minor flaw in this approach is it incentivizes characters to use the skill a lot -- and many people will try and game that -- by just trying to use their skills all the time for the most trivial reasons. Still think your method is good -- but as a GM I'd tweak it or limit it -- so players can't game your method -- which is easy enough to do.

[@TornMacalester]

Thank you, this was useful to address. After 40 years I realized that I need to fix this for my table.

[@ImaginerImagines]

Good advice. Traveller needed a few tweaks to make it a better game. I still loved it.

[@RPGElite]

Totally agree. Game still rocks. 🙂

[@jeremynielsen5555]

And this video is the reason why I wish I had more players like you at my current table. Lots of roll playing, not so much in role playing. New players, yes, but they still do not get it when it comes character development, story, goals, etc.. Keep up the great work!

[@francoisfortin4693]

I play the old Traveller in French with young players. For progression, I told them to add 10/100 every time he uses a zero skill. But removed the Skill Level. Example; Driver 3 got 07/100 per use. So a traveler with a skill of 6 would only get 04/100 per use, which would take him more use. For a skill at -3, he got 13/100. But this means that the traveler will practice firing his laser gun in the cargo space of his spaceship, just to get the 10 x 10/100. To level up to level 1 in Laser Gun skill. You can tell him that it's only in a combat situation that he's going to get 10/100 per successful shot or not.

[@BlackburnBigdragon]

Another possible explanation that goes along with them considering it a wargame could be that they considered the game to be episodic. Meaning for each adventure, the players would play new characters. Either that, or having the same characters but in different unrelated scenarios. Either way, they clearly weren't thinking about a continuity of stories with the same characters over time. As we all know, back in that time period, the difference between a wargame and a role playing game was very murky. Most of these games were considered a wargame with some role playing elements sprinkled in back then. It took some time for the game developers to realize that the players wanted to focus more on the story than almost exclusively on combat. You can see this slow transition in so many games from that era. My rule of thumb when looking at these old games is that it has to be understood where the hobby was focused at that time period. Things were still being felt out. I one hundred percent agree with you though. Frankly, I don't think that a lot of the game developers really realized what they had when they were writing these games back then and it took them a while to figure out what the players were focused on compared to what they were focused on.

[@cto1gg]

Traveller, from the very beginning, approached role playing in a different way than D&D. You create a pushing-middle-age character that should be played as a "real person." You're not busting down doors and killing goblins in Traveller. You advance by accumulating wealth, equipment, and prestige. That was the appeal of Traveller, and still is, in many respects. Now, some people may not like that approach, and that's fine, but it's not a reflection of some design flaw of the system. Even playing 5 years of in-game time should maybe provide only a handful of new skills / levels, and yes, those can simply be awarded by the Referee in a logical way.

[@antytrend]

I think if you meet in the middle somewhere between character, improvement and player improvement you land on my solution, which is if the characters have been through a situation previously or possibly in their past, and they get add easier target number on that rule that isn’t something we need to clarify on the character sheet but you can’t by writing down Character experiences in bullet points

[@cowpercoles1194]

I just give the PCs character points. They can spend low levels of points to buy re-rolls (like inspiration rolls), a medium level for a perk from a perk list (like buy access to an ally or contact NPC) or they can gradually save up and spend a large number of points to bump a skill up 1 level, an attribute +1, or learn a new skill at level 0. The higher the level the skill or attribute, the higher the cost to bump it up.

[@allones3078]

Traveller has a progression system since classic iti s you get 1 unit of study for every week spent studying which is convenient as a jump take one week so you gain one skill every jump.

[@cutterjeff]

There's a whole section in there on training new skills, or doing personal excersize to improve stats.

[@briansmith7791]

Nice video. Many of the "old" Traveller players are quite happy with the system as is - character progression is about gaining knowledge, connections, social status, cool equipment, ships, money, etc. The adventure is about problem-solving, and skills are only mildly useful in accomplishing the mission. This is very different from other RPG systems, and turns a lot of players off. I never joined a Traveller group - my group in college played D&D, and we didn't do much experimenting with other systems. I did some experimenting with Classic Traveller in solo mode, and got interested in trading (ala Book 2). Once I had accumulated a few hundred million credits, I wanted to start building a trading empire, building ships, hiring crews, setting up warehouses, etc. To do this, I needed a lot of NPCs to be pilots, engineers, medics, gunners, etc. on all my ships. I could have rolled up a few dozen characters, put them through their service terms, and "hired" the ones with the skills I needed to fill each crew. But I thought it would be more fun to roll up a few dozen "raw" characters and "hire" them, then set up a training school to develop the skills I needed. I don't remember the details of how it worked out, but it seemed like a reasonable approach.

[@burgesskj]

That apparent official lack of support for progression in CT may be exactly why so many players abandoned it for fantasy RPG's like D&D, which is all about On-the-Job learning. I agree with your video explanations. About 1980, after playing for a few years and as a Referee I have had an agreement with the players ever since. If players spend a week at a time in Jump, and actual travelling takes many, many jumps I've always allowed players to develop additional skills. Usually with either trainers, or computer training programs I allow for such education. It takes a very long time 6-10 weeks in jump time, with a 'success' roll for each week attempted. I was so glad when Mercenary came out, making it official...after only 30+years after I'd come up with the same solution. For rare or dangerous skills, I even allowed for the 'Died-in-CharGen', but usually converted that to situations were player character requires medical attention, and possibly cybernetic replacement parts. This extension of skill progression makes for some fascinating life choices and experience. It can really put the 'character' in Characters. PS: Really enjoyed the thought process behind this episode, and watched it more than twice. Thanks for sharing!

[@quantus5875]

There is a 2-page experience section in the 1977 and 1983 versions of Classic Traveller in Book 2: Starships. Although most people don't like it (or conveniently forget about it) or house-rule it -- because that system is a "tough" one. Also note: RPGElite is talking about the 1983 version of Classic Traveller that was simplified a little for a younger demographic and he is correct that 1983 version of CT does not have experience rules.

[@briansmaller7443]

To be honest, back in the day when I started playing CT I am not sure I ever had a character last long enough to improve.

[@RPGElite]

😁

[@rory7590]

You can improve characters through training and also by obtaining more stuff (however that happens), In other words you improve through role-playing. This reviewer seems to have gotten the wrong end of the stick.

[@RPGElite]

This is not a review. I talk about a mechanic not being in the core rules. In the Starter Set, the one I am covering and have in the thumbnail, there is none. So, I have a form grasp on the right end of the stick because even what you are saying is not in the book. 🙂 You have to do your due diligence, my friend. This is part of a series, not a one off. 👍🏿

[@DanHigdon]

I'm a new subscriber, and this sort of video is EXACTLY why I'm a fan of your channel now. (I have a lot of backlog to catch up on though!) Every time I started to think of a reply, you'd finish your thought with either the exact thing I was going to suggest, or something that I liked even better. Back in the 80's when I was playing in High School, we used a variant training system where we could accumulate one week of training during jump, and after 6 weeks, the lesson "stuck". Since we were in a campaign that involved a lot of space travel with adventures at each port of call, if worked out to "leveling up" every few sessions. I don't remember how we paid for these lessons, though I do remember the characters setting up a shooting range down one of the long side corridors in an Empress Marava Free Trader we were travelling in. (I think we were playing "Twilight's Peak".) In recent years, I've been a fan of the Classic "Experience" system - both the 4 year "Sabbatical" you can take to pay for Level-2 in any skill, and the "What are you actively studying?" system. Side note - the Sabbatical costs line up very well with your suggested prices for training. I wouldn't require "dedication rolls" though, for the reasons you state - that's wargaming thinking. If the player wants the character to study that topic, they automatically do. Same with the physical fitness program. I would keep the rule that you can only work on one at a time, but I let people "switch out" on their character's birthday. (Still need 4y of "noodling" to get a permanent skill level though.) One last thought about training - I could see letting characters keep level-0 in a skill they failed their training roll for. This way, you could have your entire squad train up on, say, "deep sea diving" while preparing for a mission. Some would get Diving-1, but everyone would at least get Diving-0.

[@haveswordwilltravel]

Book 2: Starships, p.40 lists the ways player characters can improve their skills, or attributes. It is not optimal, and is slow as hell, taking 4 years to upgrade 2 skills by 1 level each. I houseruled that the time period was 1 year instead. Still not optimal. Honestly I thought you were going to mention character death after failing a survival check during chargen. I fixed that by having the character survive, but with an injury or a “black mark” on their record. Excellent video. As usual you deliver quality content.

[@quantus5875]

Yes, you're right pages the Experience section on pages 42-43 of Book 2: Starships. I think most people forget about this section because it is harsh -- Game Designer's Workshop is just echoing that a +1 in something is a big deal -- and should be very hard to get -- and is in synch with the character creation rules where you don't get much for each 4-year term of service. But yes -- it is harsh for most people. So, people usually house-rule in systems that make it easier to acquire skills and skill increases.

[@loconius]

How many skills or improvements do you typically earn in a 4 year term during character gen? I haven’t had many if any campaigns last longer then a year, so I can see the argument for no advancement in game that matches normal learning (or experience) since the time scale is so short. But I also understand the desire to have some growth for the character so it’s a catch-22

[@DanHigdon]

We used to worry about the fact that the most ambitious career (Army if you get commission and promotion) gave you like 6 skills in 4 terms, and that implying that you can barely get more than 1 skill per year if you assume that first term is mostly training and meaningful experience, so any scheme that gave you skills faster than that was broken. But the training system with 6 weeks per intessive "session" that you probably can't do back-to-back, and then a decent chance that you'll need to repeat the session works out very roughly to the same thing.

[@loconius]

I can’t seem to find unskilled rolls in CT, is it the same as mongoose’s -3?

[@DanHigdon]

It depends on the skill, and there is little consistency.

[@sequoyahwright]

Good video, my dude. "That statement... was WHACK!" Hahaha!!!

[@user-dr9co1op1o]

Its technically not calling itself an RPG on the box or the book covers, but "Science-Fiction Adventure in the Far Future" . But even as an RPG it can qualify on the LBB rules. Character progression may not be the same as other games but it is there. A Final Word (last page of LBB Book 3). "Traveller is necessarily a framework describing the barest of essentials for an infinite universe; obviously rules could cover ever aspect of every possible action would be far larger than these three booklets. A group involved in playing a scenario or campaign can make their adventures more elaborate, more detailed, more interesting, with the input of a great deal of imagination." In Traveller, player progression isn't calculated in tables, levels and experience points, but stories and character history, and even during character creation (which you can spend decades game time playing) you can build your character and story and shape stats, or even die. It arguably hast the most in depth character creation options of most out games out there because so much of the detail can be inserted at the beginning. Is it less realistic than starting as an adult at level 1 with no experience, and then upping each level and stats after every quest? You can get more money, you can get better stuff, learn new things. Check out "Experience" Page 42-3 on LBB2. Its not a "problem" with the game unless you don't like playing the game. And if you don't like playing the game as you read it make it your own through imagination (or play something else)

[@btrenninger1]

The real big problem in Classic Traveller is the price of an Air Raft. But, actually, it's a feature in that it forces poorer characters to travel with less expensive and more dangerous modes of overland travel.

[@DanHigdon]

Air/Rafts are only expensive on high law level worlds.

[@loconius]

I always though they were really expensive (coming from Star Wars) until I realized they are essentially helicopters, and most aircraft are crazy expensive (especially helicopters)!

[@OnlyBugmenWantedHandles]

I played just a little traveler. One interesting thing you may not know is, traveler was the first TRPG to have a Japanese version published.

[@cb3391]

I got hooked because you reminded me of this great ole game....servo, I will have to do a solo.of this great ole game.

[@Ratenef]

I think the original creator was just saying 1) that character development was not integral to their vision and 2) as per the standard modus operandi of the time, the rules are GUIDELINES not COMMANDMENTS and thus can be changed, modified, tweaked, etc. And you were actually encouraged to do so, to make the game best for you and your fellow table mates. I might also include the idea of experience. An engineer gains in skill just through actually hands on doing engineering, same with most other skills. So you could have a school of 'hard knocks' whereby progression could occur without a proper trainer, but at a much longer time and with some sort of challenge roll to validate the skill increase.

[@keithvanboskirk7327]

How about a software package on a license basis that requires a payment(s) with modules for individual skills 'Basic Starship Ops' cost similar to monthly mortgage on a fartrader with a one time upfront payment). Extra costs for the modules(Pilot1, Astrogation2, Jump, etc.) If you miss 3 payments the whole program deletes itself. Still need #/weeks and skill roll to advance.

[@mrgunn2726]

Boy was I wrong, I thought you were going to say the hexadecimal numbering system was the elephant. The original GDW designers were war gamers. There are several games today that do not have character progression, moreover, Traveller character progression is handled in the character creation process.

[@steveyoungwork]

There is character progression in Traveller, You can learn new skills and abilities, this has been in it from day 1!

[@RPGElite]

Not in the Starter Set, which is the one I’m covering for the series. hence the reason for that big, black book in the thumbnail.

[@steveyoungwork]

@@RPGElite book 4 is the starter set (the fist 10 are) depending on your point of view! Though you to bring up some interesting elements!

[@kaylaa2204]

Personally to me traveller looks more like the progression is meant to be more focused on a different area If you look at a game that does have level progression like D&D you don’t only progress in levels. You progress in wealth, status, property, and magic items throughout the game. I see no issue with a game where the latter group is the only method of progression. If I go from a minimalistic ship to the nicest ship in that whole star system, I would say I’ve progressed

[@peterd9698]

I think you can make a case that certain mechanisms like levelling and XP are both extremely unrealistic and _kill_ real roleplay.. especially in computer games they are just an easily implementable concept to get the player to grind. What would I want for a progression system in a game like Traveller? I wouldnt expect you to be able to dramatically increase your hitpoints or anything like that. You would get better armour. Most importantly without cybernetics or whatever, progression should be plausible for a human being, and should include wounds and aging. There should also be a bunch of minor skills, eg familiarity with certain equipment or how to find the doorknob in an ancient's base from a previous adventure.

[@LaMirah]

While I agree that in when one plays the same character for a long time in a campaign, character progression helps with setting up the Hero's Journey, but there's an alternative way to play: one-shots and miniseries, where the players create a character for a single session or a small number of them. This is kind of the default in horro-themed games like the Aliens RPG and Call of Cthulhu, but it can work well in Space Opera settings like Classic Traveller's default setting. It can even free players to roleplay more deeply since long-term survival and optimization become less of a concern, and they can immerse themselves in the short-story-like plots that hearken back to the sci-fi classics of the early to mid twentieth century.

[@michaelsudsysutherland5353]

Character progression... Yeah. Funny story, I came into RPGs from wargaming, and The Traveller Book was the first RPG I was exposed to. GURPS 3rd edition, and Star Wars D6 (RIP WEG) were next. Those showed me the concept of character progression. Imagine my shock when WotC picked up the Star Wars license and used the D&D class system... What? I can only progress within a class?! I also tend to grade Traveller on a curve, being the first SF RPG in a world where RPG's were relatively new... Starting out with a character that was middle aged with experience behind them and the associated skills is pretty rare still to this day.

[@thomaswebb2584]

So your Rank 3 Engineer could TEACH people for $12,000/student between adventures! Seems like a great income stream to maintain your lifestyle or pay for additional classes for oneself! Nice!

[@capnahayes]

I love how the new Mongoose Traveller rpg handles skill progression.

[@btrenninger1]

It does have a character advancement system. Book 2 P40. Though, it's a rule rarely used. But, really, it's a science fiction game. Character advancement is primarily through acquiring money and Equipment.

[@btrenninger1]

Also, roleplaying games are wargames.

[@RPGElite]

Wargames are wargames. Role-playing games are role-playing games. There's a difference. They are not synonymous terms except for tabletop RPG abusers. And this is the Starter Set which I've shown in 3 videos and it's not there.

[@btrenninger1]

@@RPGElite The roles: Navy, Marines, Army Scout, Merchant, Other. Mercenaries (also are war profession) isn't the starter set either, yet you referred to it. Classic Traveller is not the the starter set. Starter set is a 1983 reduced rule set never intended to be complete. The 1977 three LBBS are the original Traveller and include character advancement rules. There are legitimate criticisms of that advancement system but its nonexistence isn't one of them. Role playing games are a derivative off shoot of wargames, intended to allow for more realistic wargames by putting players into the various roles that affect the situation beyond the mere clash of units. But, still military considerations.

[@jackmalin2528]

@@btrenninger1 Roleplaying games come from wargames yes but they are ment to ROLEPLAY the character. There are RPGs without combat you know :P

[@btrenninger1]

@@jackmalin2528 Even the ones without combat are wargames. Roleplaying is just combat by other means.

[@ottawamonsterpocalypse7729]

I liked the third method you mentioned. As to the question, I don't think I've done anything quite so complex. I've broken down a few miniature gaming systems to analyze the points value of models and try to figure out how to make balanced custom models for them and I've experimented with altering dice mechanics used and how that effects miniature gaming systems, but those are not RPGs. Ultimately in the past, I'm afraid if the character advancement system was not there, or really didn't suit my tastes, I've just walked away. My view is that the RP can be brought into even the most mechanics-laden system with the right playgroup and solid mechanics are usually what I'm paying for in a product. Which is not to say I won't pay for lore. I have in the past. Maybe I'm just getting old and crusty though as I find I'm not feeling the lore in newer books the way I do from my the old books. I find there was more a spirit of fun in a lot of old books whereas many new books I've read a bit of as they pass through my shop feel like poorly fleshed out knockoffs of older settings or very cookie cutter.

[@tamsinp7711]

I'm not sure which edition of Classic Traveller you're using, but there were rules for post-career self improvement in the '81 Little Black Books - it was hidden in Book 2 Starships between Computers and Drugs.

[@quantus5875]

I was a little confused at first -- now I get it - RPGElite is talking specifically about the 1983 version of Classic Traveller that does not have that experience section (it was simplified a little to make it more amenable for a younger demographic). You are correct the 1977 and 1981 versions of Classic Traveller do have that experience section.

[@PossumMedic]

You can find some advancement options on p42 of book 2 "Experience" I think it's odd to say Traveller isn't a roleplaying game when character creation is so in depth

[@RPGElite]

Again, not in the version I highlight in the video, which is what I talked about in the video. This is not a one off video. It is a series on a particular version of Classic Traveller.

[@quantus5875]

@@RPGElite Yes -- now I get it you are talking about the 1983 version of Classic Traveller. Yes, you are correct the 1983 had the experience rules removed, the 1977 and 1981 versions of Classic Traveller have that experience section in Book 2. Btw: Great video!! -- liked your tips better than what is written in Book 2 (of 1977 and 1981 Classic Traveller) on experience.

[@loucorreia6142]

Loved Classic Traveller, but some classic games were just starting points. What you called “the Mercenary system” was applied in CT (Classic Traveller) to Naval characters in “High Guard”; then to Scouts, Merchants and other careers. All CT yet in a way new editions and revisions. I played a mix of CT + MegaTraveller + GURPS Traveller + house rules. Now my son referees the latest Mongoose Traveller version and elephants in the room have been eaten over the years… one bite at a time. Classic Traveller was a starting point. Back in the First Century there were those who claimed that they only used “Classic Bible” - the Old Testament. You know those Sadducees even claimed that Classic Bible was only limited to the Five Books of Moses; like some would only consider the original 3 Little Black Books as real Traveller while others include all the 5 1/2 x 81/2 black books as Classic. But the New Testament was the fulfillment of the Old, not a new version. Same with some classic systems. Analogy may not fire on all cylinders but explains how the different Traveller editions, with the blessing of the game’s creator, complete it. Another GDW game - a favorite of mine - is Space: 1889. It also needed a resurrection and the Ubiquity version of SPACE: 1889 improved it and really enhanced the ROLE playing. Enjoying your videos.

[@rttakezo2000]

No character progression, no problem.

[@landoe2846]

My answer to your question, I’d buy the Mongoose Traveller game. Basic rules and character creation is the same , does have character advancement. The Second edition cleans up the rules a bit more. The 2nd edition update fixed layout issues and added the ship building rules.

[@Dracopol]

Hey, excellent topic! Fans will tell you that subsequent editions of Traveller added a skill improvement system. Extensive use of computer-aided instruction, which wasn't thought of much in the 1970s, means characters can get audio-visual learning for cheaper than going to a class in-person, and they can fit it in their down-time during 1 week in Jump. Get this! To combat Jump boredom, Traveller characters go to SCHOOL! Isn't that ironic? Traveller Mongoose 2nd-edition says take 8 weeks of down-time and the proper learning program, and make an EDU roll to roll 8+, and you get any skill at the starting level 0 or improve a level 0 to a level 1. To go from level 1 to 2, you need two 8-week periods each with a successful roll. There are still experts programming these computer courses, but they are selling the same finished program to thousands of people they don't have to teach personally, so the cost per student is much less. This can work for any skill, at least in the lower levels. Don't forget that adding a +1 from skill on a 2d6 roll to roll higher than an 8 (in most cases) is a big deal, not to be confused with a linear d20 system where each +1 adds 5% to your chances. The skill increases in Traveller should be more sparing.

[@SamothTheSorcerer]

There are rules for character advancement in Classic Traveller! Look at Book 2 Pages 40-41 of the 1977 version (42-43 in the 1981 version). They are quite limited, though. It takes 4 years to get a temporary increase in 2 skills (and 8 years to make the increases permanent). There are even rules to improve education up to the level of intellect. There are also rules to increase your physical attributes by 1 while engaging in a fitness regimen.

[@RPGElite]

Look at the game I am covering. It is the Classic Traveller Starter set. It's the game in the thumbnail. It doesn't have advancement.

[@quantus5875]

Just realized that this video is referring to the 1983 version of Classic Traveller. Yes, 1983 version of CT does not have that experience section. The 1977 and 1981 version of Classic Traveller do.

[@roylecomte4606]

Universe RPG ; See (Startrader boardgame Aries 12 magazine. ) Roll % system ; pistol gain on 0,1,9 any D10. Forward observer gains 0,1. Engineer gains 0.

[@aaronbrown42]

Sorry to necro your video, but I just saw it and my first thought was: What's wrong with "LBB" Book 2 Starships page 42: "Experience"? Now, I'll agree that it's poor organization to put your character experience section in a book titled something other than "Characters" or even "Worlds and Adventures", but here we are.

[@RPGElite]

@@aaronbrown42 You didn't necro anything so don't worry about it because that's not the book in the thumbnail. There's a certain classic version that I'm going over in this series which everybody tends to overlook even though it's right there in the thumbnail. No worries though. This is a friendly reminder. 😉👍🏿

[@capnahayes]

At the least I would recommend using the system that MGT 2E uses.

[@anonymouse8953]

Great Tips!

[@ARKavli]

I don't know all the version of Traveller, but book 2 of the LBB in '77 and '81 both have sections on self-improvement. While there are no experience points as such, it is unique in that it requires long-term training programs and tests to see if you character gets lazy and stops going to the gym. In a certain way, I think that fits better than rapidly spending xp. I think you might be reading a bit too much into this mysterious person's motivations, though. 🙂 Developing aspects for CT was kind of baked into the cake. Much like developing a setting, since CT is not a setting but a rule set.

[@RPGElite]

As I said in video #1 (this is a series which I do for classic TTRPGs . This is the third), this is the Starter Set from 1983, and it doesn't have an advancement system. That's the book I have put in every thumbnail in the series and I mentioned that was what I was using for the series.

[@quantus5875]

@@RPGElite Ahh. Sorry got it -- now I understand you're talking specifically about the 1983 version of Classic Traveller. Then you are correct the 1983 version did not have experience rules (were taken out to simplify the game for kids). Yes, the 1977 and 1981 versions of Classic Traveller have an "Experience" section in Book 2: Starships. I have the 1981 version. btw: Great video!!

[@eprohoda]

hiya!,yo. really stunning traveler, Rpg~;)

[@blankmike4613]

hi, a Director used a race(s) of sentient Robots/electric clones/replicates, as ancient 1st Imperium pro teachers. Expensive to hire as tutor, but can impart a skill. just an idea.

[@butchcoffeeboy]

Classic Traveller has an advancement system for skills and attributes. It's on page 40 of Book 2. And also the characters gets better through obtaining better gear, better ships, etc. Not to mention that the whole thing about you saying it's a role-playing game and not a wargame is invalidated by the fact that Marc Miller (the guy who created the system!!!) to this day still refers to Traveller as a wargame, not a roleplaying game.

[@quantus5875]

You are correct that the 1977 and 1981 versions of Classic Traveller have an experience section in Book 2. RPGElite was specifically talking about the 1983 version of Classic Traveller -- which does not have an experience section (rules simplified to make it more amenable to a younger demographic). So, you are both correct. Just have to be clear on which version of Classic Traveller we're talking about.

[@MrGunnar177]

Just found your channel and just getting into RPGs! Subscribed!

[@groovinhooves]

I think that Traveller is not the RPG of choice for the participant (player or GM) who wants to measure success by levels (whether overall or of individual skills). A lot will depend on the elapsed time scale of the actual "now you are adventurers" portion of the campaign vs the implied years in prior terms of service completed in character generation. Remember that each term is four years unless truncated due to accidental circumstances. Okay so we've spent, say, 30 minutes generating a character now aged 30 (just to make the maths semi-simple), so ten minutes per term, acquiring all these skills and mustering out benefits. Now the adventure begins in earnest, and several HOURS are spent covering action spanning just a few days (at most and discounting Jump time). Let's say our three-term character came away with Zero-G Combat-2 (in addition to whatever) and that skill came into play during the session. That one experience compared with all the YEARS of training is insignificant in scale. In fact, over time, your Traveller character is more liable to deteriorate than progress (except hopefully financially and/or socially). Traveller wasn't intended to be [a certain fantasy RPG I will also not specifically name out of respect for our host] in space, after all.

[@groovinhooves]

I know, so bleak, right? Space is cold (but it smells like burnt steak, apparently) and no one can hear you scream. But, let me suggest this little house rule: Whenever a task roll is made, and the PC rolls a natural 12, make note of that success. Later, during the next "rest" period or a week-long jump if that seems appropriate, have the PC roll against the skill again, adding their current level as DM. If the (adjusted) result is ≥12, level up that skill. That's still a pretty slim chance? Yes, but it's a fatter chance than reality affords to "skill up" by experience of a few hours or days vs years of pack drill and discipline.

[@loconius]

And even in character gen, your not necessarily getting your skill levels from training, they may be side projects, hobbies or just picking up on stuff while doing your 9 to 5. In the mongoose book, there is a “university” term, and I think it’s a good mode for bringing “training” into a given campaign. Given it still takes a sizable amount of time, but so did the original skills! I like the point your making about the skills coming from years of training and experience. Gaining another skill level after an evening of B&E seems… unusual. The dangerousness of adventuring doesn’t even apply to traveller’s, since they are in just as much danger in character gen as in actual play!

[@cathryntruebloood3913]

OMG I so remember this game

[@thumper8684]

HARD DISAGREE Character development is not the same as power creep. That's an endorphin game, not role-playing.

[@rommdan2716]

I like endorphin

[@adzi6164]

to be frank... You are basically talking about your own interpretation of what a role-playing game is all about - a very common interpretation, but still, you are taking a subjective matter and presenting it as an objective truth. Having your character develop mechanically is *not* a requirement for the game to "qualify" as an RPG. We are not talking about videogames here (and videogame RPGs are a very abstract facsimile of traditional RPGs, anyway). If mechanics for developing your character's mechanical stats/skills/abilities/levels are mandatory for an RPG, then, does that mean that when you are playing a one-shot, you are not playing an RPG? Does it suddenly become a "wargame"? The creator's comment on the matter IS lame, and might be probably just a kneejerk reaction to the (relatively) powergaming trends of D&D, but it does highlight a certain aspect of playing characters in an RPG when seen from a bigger perspective - even bigger than of that creator, unless he was just at a loss of words to word his answer correctly... that the "evolution" of the character is about it being interesting and more fleshed out in general, about its stories and its growing place in the setting, and not about their number values growing bigger. Of course, it doesn't mean that the presence of rules making characters grow stronger over time is bad, either - as long as they fit the intended mood/genre of the game, of course. If the GM leans properly into the former aspect, the mechanical aspect might not be strictly necessary in games that aren't about making big numbers grow bigger.

[@ruggersammy1979]

Did Kirk and Doc McCoy level up?

[@quantus5875]

Kirk in seduction skills yes. 😂

[@CaptainHarris-ip2kg]

This is nonsense. Gary Gygax put the exp level system in DnD to keep people hooked and playing. He said so many times. Marc Miller's and other authors and designers at GDW emphasized the story and actual gameplay, with better equipment and money to buy said equipment as the in-game reward. And as others pointed out the character improvement system is already there, but it costs you current attributes, and you have to make a dedication roll on 2d6. You can't just say you're working out or studying to improve a characteristic or skill, the dice tell you whether you character stuck with it or not. Traveller is also more security scenario oriented like a lot of sci-fi, so you're not really aspiring to be a sword expert that can hack down an army of goblins as per the fantasy RPGs. You in the 3I to solve or address security threats. ... anything more I have is of a personal natured and aimed at the half dozen sociologists working down the street from Disney, and keeping tabs on social trends for the majors. Thanks mister O ... I'll just keep this in mind.

[@matthewesch8758]

Damn. Did not know that detail about the "no advancement" thing. Huh. Wild.

[@khublaklonk4480]

Aww, and here I was wondering if it might be about Traveller's ongoing membership of the Flat Universe Society.

[@Strategiusz]

The worst content/time ratio ever.

[@roylecomte4606]

Physical fitness kick Str Dex End +1

[@berndmeyer9156]

Soooo... you DO realize that is totally wrong, right? Little Black Book 2, page 42: "SELF-IMPROVEMENT Limited personal development and experience is possible in the sense of increasing abilities and skills. Such potential for increases is possible in four specific areas, only one of which may be attempted at one time: education, weapon expertise, other skills, and physical fitness." There are no experience points, but you CAN increase abilities and skills... through hard work and study. And yes, it takes time... like in reality.

[@RPGElite]

You do realize that's not the book in the thumbnail, correct?

[@quantus5875]

@berndmeyer. RPGElite was talking about the 1983 version of Classic Traveller. You are correct the 1977 and 1981 versions of Classic Traveller do have that experience section in Book 2. So you're both correct - yeah took me a little while to figure out RPGElite was specifically talking about the 1983 version of CT.

[@ericdollarhyde3296]

😮😮 no character progression !!!! 😮😮

[@roylecomte4606]

Sebatacil learn 2 skill points

[@gzombie1]

I'm glad I played Star Frontiers instead.

[@RPGElite]

Hey now. Don’t hate on Classic Traveller. It's still on a great game, and arguably better than Star Frontiers, subjectively of course. 🙂

[@dylanfraser9136]

neat

[@roylecomte4606]

Traveller's skill 3 traîner

[@docsavage8640]

Nope, you've missed the entire point of Traveller. Try again.