Ruby Franke & the Mormonism of it all

[@kymlouise]

I’m a retired clinical psychologist & I’ve been fascinated & appalled by the Franke children’s awful plight. I thoroughly enjoyed this podcast, you both have a new subscriber ❤

[@christopher3d475]

One of the weirder parts of this entire saga (and there are a lot of weird things) was that Jodi MOVED IN with Ruby and Kevin for like a month. She actually was going out almost like a chaperone during things like their anniversary dinner. Bizarre. Kevin said in I think the second police interview that things started going downhill fast when she stayed with them for that period, and actually alluded to 'strange' negative, almost paranormal things happening in their home. Just imagine for a minute that your marriage counselor wants to move in with your and your spouse. It's so off the rocker. Adam Paul Steed also said something interesting about the relationship Jodi was developing with some of the women, including his wife, as being almost sexual or romantic in nature. I've done some speculating that Jodi was a deeply closeted lesbian.

[@lq6424]

Yes!!!! So bizarre!!!

[@RendaJane]

She loved holding hands with Rubes. There wouldn’t be any problem with that had they not kicked Kev closer and closer to the curb. The demise of her kids was also slow. They would not have been alive many hours in a desert and left alone.

[@claudialyon2342]

I have thought that too. Also she seems to really hate men.

[@analuisavianatalina2355]

The espirituality its supose to help you not disturb… and you both seam very confuse about everything. Wear 😮

[@RendaJane]

@@analuisavianatalina2355 Can you translate that to English? I love other languages, but I don’t understand this one. 🙏🏽 Namaste.

[@SunsetChaser308]

Ruby’s sister made KZbin videos about blanket training her young children. She cited her oldest daughter as the catalyst to start doing it because she couldn’t sit still for over an hour of boring church. You now, what a normal child does. Being a normal wiggly child is reason in the church for many to squash out any sense of self or perceived rebelliousness.

[@claudialyon2342]

Evangelicals are mean in Church too. My children won’t step in a Church anymore except for a wedding lol my youngest has anxiety attacks if he even drives near the church we went to as a family. I stopped going to church because of severe anxiety too I couldn’t get ready because I couldn’t stop shaking my ex husband was so mean on Sunday. So he got harder on the kids when I stopped going without me to be nasty to.

[@oooh19]

Yea especially when so little but a) you must learn young and b) even adults or older children can have a hard time focusing or staying quiet or still

[@lisachavez3911]

It seems, from listening to the prison calls, that Ruby has much more compassion for her fellow inmates than she did for her own children.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

That is very normal

[@patricianoel7782]

When you read her journal it might change your mind,Sam. We’re still awaiting her. writings in what’s referred to as “The PEN Papers”. Should knock our collective socks off!

[@SunsetChaser308]

How many children have gotten spanked or severely disciplined during church over the years that would otherwise probably be having a normal happy childhood day at home? 😢 The culture of obedience, perfectionism, and mandatory good behavior has damaged so many.

[@Kirsten_is_cursed10]

Ruby’s sister Bonnie did the “blanket” thing to her babies, too, and so did the Duggars. Bonnie still has a video on her channel about it I think.

[@bettymanning9807]

The blanket training is the cruelest thing I have ever heard.

[@amysticwallflower]

There is no way that Ruby could unbrainwash herself in that short space of time.

[@lilbigtoe7420]

Nah, Ruby knew what she was doing. That speech at her sentencing where she continued to blame everyone but herself shows that. She showed no true remorse for torturing those kids, only remorse for what it did to her image.

[@crazymema23]

ruby should be required to read her journals aloud and listen to recordings of her reading the journals everyday for 2 months no other books, dvd, paper, pens, tv, bible, religion

[@denagustafson6070]

I understand your point and realize you’re likely venting, but it doubt that it would be possible to stop Ruby from reading her bible or practicing her religion in prison since a basic right in the USA is freedom of religion. Edited to add that I, in absolutely, in NO way support Ruby, Jody, Kevin or the systematic torture of these innocent children. Unfortunately, these admitted perpetrators of torture and abuse will have more rights than those poor babies.

[@crazymema23]

@@denagustafson6070 I know, just thinking, punishment should fit the crime

[@denagustafson6070]

@@crazymema23I wish the court was permitted to impose a sentence fitting this heinous crime. Fortunately for them, our society is much more civilized, and less evil, than Ruby and Jody. The other inmates, perhaps not…..

[@crazymema23]

Well then we shall leave them to do their proselytizing. Maybe they will start hosting parenting classes for their fellow classmates🤔

[@Jalle6673]

Ruby sounded like she was giving an acceptance speech for some award, when she made her statement at sentencing. She thanked the police and the EMTs and so on and so forth for intervening and helping her children. It was just like an acceptance speech where they think everyone they know that is ever helped them obtain whatever award. I don't remember her saying anything about being sorry for the treatment that she did to her children. I don't remember and apology within her acceptance speech. Maybe it was there; I'll have to go back and re-listen to it.

[@kl7051]

She didn't thank the neighbor who saved her son's life or her son who saved his sister's life. She is such an ugly self-centered person.

[@hayley74936]

as an exvangelical gemini Hayley, I feel safe here 😌 such a horrific situation, but I appreciate the thoughtful conversation. In Evangelicalism we don't use the terms "natural man", but we do learn that the "mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so". Soooo super fun learning that you inherently are evil & to push any normal desires you have away to serve god! Such an incredibly damaging line of thinking, and I agree, is why you can't fully separate the mormon of it all.

[@gracenpettitt6687]

I also think it’s important to remember those who are part of the church equate wealth with being blessed from our Heavenly Father. This too may have made her someone, a bishop would believe is doing what Heavenly Father wants or she wouldn’t be so blessed…. There are a lot of things about this case that just make way more sense to those of us who grew up in or converted,in the church. Even her journal keeping is such an obvious Mormon teaching as well.

[@Articolate]

This is one of the smarter Ruby Franke analyses by a LONG way that I've seen here on KZbin. Also - have commented on this elsewhere, but I think RF has always foundationally disliked kids - which is fine, unless one is born into a setting where a woman's entire meaning is derived from motherhood [conservative religions]. And especially pernicious if one's family culture is tied to bragging & broadcasting perfection of ones motherhood online-as defined by attractiveness and 'correct' behavior. It's clear in even RF's earliest vids that she takes a kind of glee in hurting and punishing her kids. Am thinking in particular of a vid where she's forcing the boys to do pushups as penance for some kind of minor infraction, while RF smiles in a kind of trance-like pleasure over their struggle. Notably, the struggle falls esp. hard on little R b/c he's younger and weaker. It's incredibly disturbing.

[@poi4ever121]

Your discussion was enlightening, thank you. I've wondered where the world view of Ruby came from and you answered that clearly and well. It seems that Ruby was an Enforcer for the church rather than a Mom. Tragic.

[@SunsetChaser308]

I don’t think Ruby ever apologized to her children in her court statement though did she? Just a lot of apologies and thanks to many other people.

[@Articolate]

She apologized to her "babies." It was worded very strangely - maybe for "failing them" or s/thing vague like that? Anyway, unclear if she only meant the two youngest, or to all her kids. She definitely didn't apologize to all the families she encouraged to abuse *their* children, or the kids who were abused by extension.

[@rsyates8469]

Yes, there are good and bad people in every religion or walks of life but Ruby's cruelty was fueled by religion.

[@3dogmom]

you misspelled CULT.

[@jenniferanderson4201]

100% the colab we need in this space!!!🎉💪🎊

[@debbieshrubb1222]

I loved your discussion. I feel like you show the most well thought out arguments about the Mormon influence on these women and their crimes. Excellent point re Hildebrand and her revenge on the patriarchy.

[@rhutabaga420]

I agree with Sam, I think it's def possible that Ruby has had an awakening in jail and feels some real remorse now. Maybe not, but I think I felt some realness from her sentencing statement. Here's a convo I think is totally plausible to have happened: Jail mates: we heard you're a child abuser, what's up with that Ruby: I know how it looks, but I know that my children have been possessed by evil spirits and I was doing what any mother would to save them Jail mates: what were they doing that was evil? Ruby: being disrespectful, telling lies, being selfish, talking back, disobeying... Jail mates: UMMM bitch that's every child, evil has nothing to do with it. What else? ... Then with her lawyer apparently repeating her own crazy words back to her, prob stuff like "so you knew he was evil...because he was whining?" I could see how she might start to come closer back to reality, with all that time to think in jail.

[@laurenanderson61]

I can only hope her (and Jodi's) fellow inmates know all about her crime

[@rhutabaga420]

@@laurenanderson61 surely they know, I would think. It'd probably only take one inmate to hear about it from a friend or relative on the outside for it to spread around like crazy. Or Ruby may have told them herself, especially when she still felt justified about it all.

[@patricianoel7782]

Raised 4 children. while in the cult. 3 out of 4 quit on their own when my husband and I divorced. I’ll recommend “The Good Enough Parent” by Bruno Bettelheim. Helpful. Peaceful. Comforting.❤

[@LindsayBallif]

Not the church streaming service putting an ad before this podcast 😂

[@hellomello258]

As a never mo raised part atheist/part fundie-adjacent, "The natural man is an enemy to God" is absolutely wild. To my knowledge many religions and many sects of Christianity specifically have a concept that people unaware of the religion can still be good people, often by naturally following the mores and rules of the religion. This idea of being born broken seems extreme (see: Girl Defined's "we're all broken"). Christianity says that humanity was created in God's image so how is the natural man an enemy to God?

[@nhilz]

"high demand religion" we call that a cult

[@3dogmom]

Bingo!!!

[@tessaraenelson6051]

It's seriously crazy that the church would listen to Jodi Hildebrandt but excommunicate Natasha Helfer

[@larmaine]

💯

[@rhutabaga420]

Great coverage of this story, I really enjoyed this conversation. Also I❤ZELPH!

[@16marner]

13:45 ~ often times someone who is predatory, seeks out people who have certain characteristics that they’re confident they can exploit. Ruby had those characteristics. She was already extremely controlling with her children. She was already not in touch with the notion that, even though the kid came from your belly, it now takes up its own life, and its own independent journey through it. A parents roll pertains to development and support, but should not go so far as total domination. Jodi exploited Ruby’s character deficiencies in a very macabre manner. But I truly believe Ruby was always misguided, rather than ill intentioned. I believe Ruby truly loves her children. It’s just crazy to see how fractured a person’s perspective can get, when they give themselves over to an ideological vacuum.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

I was beaten up a couple of times by my parents plus the emotional and verbal abuse. All I ever wanted from them was to acknowled they were wrong and apologize

[@Maryagnes96]

John Dehlin at Mormon Stories recently did a very thorough breakdown of how Jodi and Ruby’s beliefs and practices are actually directly in line with lots of specifically Mormon theology - highly recommend if anyone wants more information on this issue!

[@Girlscamppodcast]

John is incredible!

[@untiedshoelaces2588]

Ruby was always a bit sadistic against her children, but when she received thecomplete acceptance of this from Jodi, she was given the boost to show who she truly was.

[@ridtom6055]

The Ex-Mormon podcast did a great deep dive into this as well

[@mattwilliams7454]

Something very similar happened within the Jehovah's witnesses a few years ago. I agree, crazy people are in every faith, but these closed faiths allow these kinds of things to go on much longer.

[@misscranky]

lol I got a Gospel Stream ad during this vid

[@everpearce]

I thought Andrew Huberman was called out for having 6 girlfriends and not telling them about each other….

[@Girlscamppodcast]

Yes this primarily! But, for sake of this conversation, he was also called out for lack of sound science on many occasions.

[@almcelroy4818]

She cut E's hair because she knew that she wasn't going to be needing it any more. This was attempted murder that got stopped.

[@DancingQueenie]

Ruby refused food to her little girl for TWO DAYS. Put her in that prison cell with no food. THEN after 48 hours, she said no you need another day of fasting. Have you ever fasted for 24 hours? You know how hard that is? SEVENTY TWO HOURS???

[@andreanairvin7724]

Im sorry i fully disagree with Ruby being remorseful, the reason i say this is because Ruby has always been a people pleaser and her act of remorsefulness plays into her knowing what people are expecting her to be to get out of jail sooner. She even brings some of that up in her prision call to i believe her sister.

[@lexiwalker1537]

My mother would tie me to the bed because she thought I was masturbating. She would punch me in the nose I’ve had multiple nose bleeds because of her. She used to pin my underwear as close to my nose as possible so I wouldn’t wet the bed anymore. She would wake me up at 7am everyday weekend included so I could start cleaning. Wasn’t allowed to play outside or play with friends unless it was a Mormon friend and it was scheduled. She would have me kneel on rice in our laundry room (hard floors) for at the least 3 hours. I thought this was 100% normal until I moved out of my parents house at 19. There is so much more that my mother did and no one ever said anything no one did anything when I’d tell another adult. I’m glad these kids got out and authorities believed them. I never got that. The adults around me failed me. I hope they heal ❤️‍🩹

[@hlnbee]

I so sorry for your upbringing. 😢

[@marysammons-l8t]

I am so sorry! I can not imagine what you still hold from that. I can’t fathom but I can imagine 😭. Please know that there is recovery from such loss and pain. Again, I’m so sorry.

[@lexiwalker1537]

@@marysammons-l8t thank you ❤️‍🩹

[@barbaralonero4306]

But the people in the Mormon religion sure do have these thoughts an awful lot and more so recently you got to admit maybe the Mormon Church ought to sit there whole congregation down and talk to them about what they should and shouldn't believe in

[@3dogmom]

**cult. not religion- CULT

[@hlnbee]

It seems impossible for parents to think their children are possessed. Maybe they saw the movie “The Bad Seed”?

[@JeantheSecond-ip7qm]

As a never Mormon, I think that every group, even the most benign, has predators and abusers, but organizations that promote toxic behaviors and beliefs will both produce and attract more predators. Also, Mormonism, like other high demand organizations, provides protection for abusers and even sometimes promote and expand the influence of predators (like they with Jodi). The Catholic Church child abuse scandal has more to do with the church leaders protecting, hiding, and providing victims by moving them around to the predators than the Catholic Church having a higher percentage of predators than the average population. High demand organizations that preach obedience, purity,and shame also produce the perfect victims.

[@celinecarles1208]

This was extremely interesting ! Thanks for this episode !!

[@TheAngryKilljoy]

Before the 60s it was common for families to have 5 or 6 kids and they managed to care for them all during a time when there was no dishwashers, washing machines, or microwaves. Maybe kids didn’t get the most attention but they didn’t get horribly abused much either.

[@claudialyon2342]

Yeah right I don’t think that is true at all. And they always put the older ones to work to take care of the younger ones. I’m one of six and I did all the cleaning my sister cooked more than me. My mother Worked nights to get away from us. Her words not mine.

[@lukaj679]

My family from that time had the opposite experience. The culture was to keep quiet about it, but it was happening.

[@jencendiary]

And it was a miserable life for the person doing the lion's share of the caregiving. Go ahead and read The Feminine Mystique.

[@staceyadams25]

I still can name so many instagram accounts of Mormon women..looking like they have these perfect t lives but also wearing and selling sleeveless clothes, in addition to perk.. which I see as the Mormon coffee lol 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

[@moniquedelaney7958]

1 chance In 12 to be Gemini . What a surprise ! Sorry , poor start

[@bebeenderson7863]

It should be illegal to have so many kids 🙃

[@marysammons-l8t]

So are you both atheist now?

[@stefanshipo]

Love podcast but intro is killing me look like a ad from 1950s 😅

[@rayray4192]

The first ten seconds are repulsive. See ya.

[@bettymanning9807]

If it’s the silly music -yes awful.

[@Girlscamppodcast]

Bye!!

[@rayray4192]

@@Girlscamppodcast you are disgusting