'Rules' and 'Expectations' in Music

/ michaelkeithson
www.buymeacoffee.com/michaelk...
Here's a little video of me trying to articulate what's been going round in my head recently. I'm not sure I did a great of it though! Hopefully there's something in there that's interesting or entertaining!
WARNING: I say 'Boogie Woogie' a number of times in this video!
Link to the David Bennett video I talk about: • 6 PIANISTS IMPROVISE O...
Here's a link to the original Paul Davids video which has the original backing track that David Bennett used in his video too: • 10 GUITARISTS SOLO OVE...
The pianist from the original video:
Charles Cornell: / @charlescornellstudios
Jeff Schneider: / @jeffschneidermusic
Aimee Nolte: / @aimeenolte
Nahre Sol: / @nahresol
Sangah Noona: / @sangahnoona

[@epweiland]

Creativity is rearranging elements into a personal pattern that fits that's different. Beautiful really.

[@michaelkeithson]

Nice! Thanks for the comment 👍🏼

[@alphaomega6062]

Many (most?) people start making music by wanting to imitate something they've heard and like "boy I wish I could do that".

[@prashram7781]

Me for sure

[@amaterasu86]

Will always be here to chat about whatever musical things your wife doesn't care about! haha

[@pianohar]

I _felt_ this ending statement and comment. LOL It can be pretty lonely when I don't get my dose of music nerd conversation, and my wife is absolutely not into that kind of stuff.

[@DavidCullen-cn1fd]

My wife doesn’t care about music theory, either, but both of us thank you for providing access to some tools/rules that help me write arrangements that make her happy :-)

[@michaelkeithson]

Ha! Nice to know some people are watching til the end! This video wasn’t really as informative as my usual videos and wasn’t sure if anyone would be interested in my waffling so it’s good to know there are at least a few that are happy to hear it!

[@reteipdevries]

I know all these 'piano channels' but I like yours the best. I hope you can keep on posting!

[@michaelkeithson]

Ah thanks! Really appreciate your comment. I’m definitely intending to keep posting as long as can think of things to talk about! 👍🏼

[@astrolappio]

My guitar teacher long times ago said to me: you have to study theory, rules but remember, they are made to be broken by good musicians 😊

[@michaelkeithson]

Thanks Fabio, yes, I definitely feel like it's important that those breaking the rules already understand the rules!

[@Dankflamio]

Of course every genre has its own “vocabulary” but I also believe that the blend of genres can be a personal expression just like how having various backgrounds impacts how we solve problems. I like hearing people use their style in any kind of music instead of just trying to sound like other people in a genre like studio musicians are often paid to do. I prefer having people who sound like themselves no matter what they play.

[@elektroschmaus]

every time a pleasure - thank you ☺

[@michaelkeithson]

Thank you 🙏 Glad you enjoyed it even if a little different to normal!

[@tommytam100]

This is a deep topic and requires much longer duration. Needs explanation of musical elements on why this kind of music sounds like this

[@michaelkeithson]

Hey Tommy, you’re right and I think I waffled a bit! I guess the disadvantage of this is that it’s not really a conversation and could have benefitted from other people’s voice too! Thanks for your comment 🙏

[@relativetimeworx8459]

It is an interesting arena for creative debate... I've always considered myself one of the more "Music Theory Aware" musicians in the numerous rock bands I've played in. However, one time, while working with a band comprised of Musician's Institute students in LA, I presented a new composition where the first section of the verse was a slow, two chord progression that modulated between D6 and Amaj7. My rather gifted guitarist's initial reaction was, "You can't do that!" To which I responded, "Can't? There's no can't"

[@michaelkeithson]

Thanks for sharing. I agree, definitely an interesting arena for debate. The way I see it is that there's no right or wrong but a spectrum of conventional and unconventional and that will obviously differ from style to style, genre to genre.

[@babarayhey]

I enjoyed listening to your thoughts, many of which reflect my own on the various subjects you cover. I've been watching your music theory videos (which are great), but this was on a bit different. I love your style!

[@michaelkeithson]

Thank you! Really nice to hear you're enjoying the content. Thanks for the comment 🙏

[@woolyfuzzy]

We’re always here to listen to this sort of thinking.

[@michaelkeithson]

🙏

[@TheNoobWhoTalks]

All great points! Your channel's asmr vibes pair wonderfully with a nice calming mid afternoon tea.

[@michaelkeithson]

😂 Thanks! Hopefully not too calming though! Wouldn’t want it to send you into a mid afternoon nap! 💤

[@smexy1141]

love your content man, please continue creating!

[@michaelkeithson]

Thank you! Appreciate your comment and I have every intention of continuing to create 👍

[@-Dominique]

A chord as it gets more complex it boxes the melody. I use the chord tones then the other intervals, scrambled eggs with spices. Perhaps Xmaj7 then i.e. 2 b3 #4 6 b7, build my recipes by tasting the main with several touches of this and that. To change chords anticipate it's triad notes. I.e. C to Eb, in the time and space of C chord, play melodically Eb and Bb then being announced change to Eb chord, you can add peppers to reach those notes with cromatism. That's what it is, anticipation by the way all there is and will be. What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.

[@davidkeithjohnson3899]

Understanding the power of simplicity is a tool those of us with non-spectacular chops can employ to fight off the multitude of voices denigrating less than virtuosic chops. You - virtuoso that you are, get it. I always think about the power of very simple melodies- Go Tell Aunt Rhodie even, or Isaac Watts When I Survey The Wondrous Cross, certainly Sibelius’s theme from Finlandia when I get discouraged. Your teaching is in the plus column too. Many thanks.

[@michaelkeithson]

Thanks for your comment David. I definitely agree about the power of simplicity, some of my favourite songs have the simplest melody/chords/production. It also makes think about the power of rhythm/groove/feel, if you’ve got great time, you can make something really simple feel amazing. Cheers! 👍🏼

[@musiqtee]

Yes, “rules” butt up against each other… As a studio session ‘worker’ through near four decades, i think this is about the role(s) i may (or may not) have _in context_ with _everyone involved._ Whatever “rules” there are, change, disappear or ‘emerge’ in a context, and reducing this experience down to details is… fun, but there are no final answers. Books, papers or video essays document this retrospectively over time, which is great - but there are no fixed answers for future music, outside of trends and societal & cultural dynamics. Questions are sometimes more giving than answers. Experience, knowledge and time passing reshape so called truths - without making them untrue, but shaping insights and maybe wisdom. It’s a flow, more than a cognitive exercise…? 👍

[@michaelkeithson]

Love this! Thanks for your contribution to the conversation!

[@nickphipp1949]

Sangah Noona is well worth a sub. Exceptionally talented in both classical and jazz styles.

[@michaelkeithson]

Cheers Nick 👍🏼

[@yourbandisabusiness]

Yes I think people pick up tools, maps, rules and heuristics that alter their perception and subsequent actions in all facets of life. It takes self-awareness to realise this is happening and whether to go along with it or not.

[@michaelkeithson]

Agreed, and you make a good point about self-awareness, it's an important component of success in my opinion. Cheers for the comment man. 🙏

[@alphaomega6062]

Anyone that has been recognised as a truly great artist has followed their own instincts and departed from previous norms. Also any success and public recognition is ancillary to their goals - the goal is to explore the music that makes sense to them and if other people like it well that just assists in taking the exploration forward.

[@mikegleim5241]

Well put, the difference between serving the music and "shoehorning", as you called it. "In the style of" doesn't always make for the best music. Unless you're Narhe Sol. Then it's all good. Keep up the thoughtful content.

[@michaelkeithson]

Thanks Mike! 👍

[@epigonejazzensemble3883]

Great discussion Michael. Needs further analysis and reflection ☮️

[@michaelkeithson]

Cheers Ago! Yeah, think it’s really more a conversational point than just me waffling on!

[@aster6000]

Being the guy in our group that's by far the most fluent in music theory puts me in a weird spot where i'm aware of the rules and how we're breaking them - but then having to chose if it's appropriate to address it, only to very often end up in this exact conversation about rules and right vs wrong, where i feel like i'm defending a position i don't even subscribe to. The genres we work in are very free and embrace experimentation (Hip Hop, Electronica, etc) so usually it's ok for me not to address it unless things sound bad and let the creative juices flow. But sometimes we go for something different.. the intention for one of our newest tracks was to veer towards Jazz, and while i'm in no way an expert on Jazz theory, i'm still fluent enough to tell when something sounds "amateur". It's hard for me to explain why this irks me, but it just feels disingenuous. Like we just said "yo jazz is that thing with the funky hihat and weird chords right?" and totally brush over the years of work that others have put into this genre. So when i eventually said "sure, but just so you know, this is barely jazz anymore", i get hit with the "Everything is allowed in Jazz" rhetoric, which to me is less in respect of jazz as a genre but simply as an excuse, or else we'd actually have this conversation instead of handwaving it away. At that point i wonder if i should even bother? Because clearly there's no real intent of actually learning about Jazz, we're instead just appropriating it and while that feels wrong to me.. is that really such a sin? I really don't know.

[@michaelkeithson]

I feel you! Being the best player in the band isn't a good place to be. I feel similar with some of my content, not necessarily subscribing to what I'm saying, I do try to caveat some of those videos with the encouragement to listen and make your own decisions whether you like it or think it's appropriate for what you're doing. My experience has been that the more I learn and better I become the more I realise there is to learn and worse I think I am, when I was 16 I thought I knew everything - sometimes a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing - but then again, like you said, what's the harm!

[@corentinmusique]

Very interesting discussion. We often hear that music MUST be a certain way! Yet, all the composers we've admired for over 300 years-Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Stravinsky, Poulenc, Gershwin, Schoenberg, Miles Davis, among others-are those who broke the rules (with the exception of Bach, who created them). I often ponder this paradox. It seems to me that it's mainly linked to the reactionary habits of our society (believing that the product of my generation is the best). The same is true in painting, cinema, and theatre. Listening to the many recorded testimonies of Francis Poulenc, you realize just how punk he was for his time. In France, every year we have the Nuits de l'improvisation in Paris. It's an evening where jazz musicians, classical musicians, rappers, break dancers, all come together. Each time, it's a rich and intense experience because jazz welcomes classical music with all its codes and differences, and vice versa! (Just like at Bobby McFerrin concerts). I think it's important for music to respect certain codes and customs, but it's equally important for us to evolve when we agree to break down (or even open up) our barriers! What a subject... We're always here to discuss topics that only interest us! 🤭😅 Corentin

[@michaelkeithson]

Hey Corentin! The Nuits de L'improvisation sounds amazing! You make some great points. I think you're right, it's important to have an understanding and importantly a respect for the 'rules' or 'conventions' without being bound by them. Thanks for your contribution to the conversation! 🙏

[@corentinmusique]

@@michaelkeithson You're welcome! Always a pleasure to chat with you

[@circlemover]

I think the best approach is to do what you want despite the so-called rules of the genre and let the listener be the final arbiter. Imposing one style of music onto another is totally legitimate (Rock-Opera ha! ha!). We have a deep need to put things in boxes and give them names and categories. Mixing these up rarely sits well together in my world.

[@michaelkeithson]

I think that's my problem with music theory, the need to (or the history of) putting things in boxes and giving them names, we tend to get locked into these conventions. Obviously there are exceptions but for the most part, most people and teachers tend to toe the line. I do think it depends on what you're trying to achieve but I think it's useful to know/learn the conventions and then do what you want. For instance, in jazz I don't think there are any great musicians who didn't learn the traditional vocabulary/tools/theory before being free to do what they wanted. Thanks for your contribution! 👍

[@alphaomega6062]

Strick adherence to genre norms, it could be argued, is necessary in order to judge success in a given piece in that genre. You can't judge the winner of the 100m dash if the contestant just writes a poem, they have to run at the finishing tape.

[@michaelkeithson]

Oooh, interesting but I fear it's dangerous to start talking about 'competition' and then it's important to frame what 'success' means and that is likely to be different from person to person. Interesting!

[@alphaomega6062]

@@michaelkeithson I wasn't thinking of competition per se just trying to find an analogy that worked to illustrate that you have to conform to some sort of formula in order to assess how close the piece under scrutiny is to success. An apple pie has to have pastry and apples if it has tofu and egg plant it is not an apple pie! However an apple pie can have ginger and lemon juice add to it giving a different taste but still being an apple pie. Hope this makes sense?

[@michaelkeithson]

@@alphaomega6062 Makes perfect sense! You can't go wrong with a food analogy!! 😂

[@alphaomega6062]

Motivation is a curious thing.. I've read that Joe Zawinal took to playing keyboards because it was more like the accordion he liked in his native land and Wayne Shorter was attracted to the saxophone "because it was shinny".

[@michaelkeithson]

You're right, I've written things in past for the sole purpose of having something original to perform, the compositional choices were completely secondary to the intention of playing it on stage! I imagine a lot of musicians start learning an instrument with the motivation of performance too. Thanks for all your comments, I appreciate the engagement! 👍

[@GizzyDillespee]

I think "the rules" and appropriate vocabulary matter if it's a cover or tribute band, or especially one of those bands who are supposed to represent a specific era or style. Otherwise, no, why? There's nothing wrong with learning a specific style, but you don't have to. IME, it seems to be more common for people to learn specific styles than not. Less so in recent history, now that the gatekeepers to distribution are different. But still, I think most people say that they want to learn how to play a specific song, or if they make their own music, it tends to fit an often narrow set of established riffs and sounds, tempos. Plenty people play instruments in different ways. I'm always being surprised. There was a video where I thought I was hearing a banjo, and I looked up, and it was someone who was plucking and playing a piano (with the lid open) at the same time, to get that sound! But then it became a jazz tune... still, each one's different.

[@michaelkeithson]

Thanks for your contribution! You make a lot of sense. I guess I was thinking about composition and improvisation but I think you’re right, most people starting to compose or play are most likely wanting to play/write the type of music they enjoy listening to so will typically follow those conventions.

[@sturowe4985]

Interstin* point - I think u only need as much theory as u need To make the point u wanna make o4=the sound u wanna make- if u love jazz or math rock then need to study- it’s not necesaruy if u just wanna play punk x- just follow your own heart and learn as much as you can abiu5 th3 people who went before-

[@michaelkeithson]

Good point. 👍

[@pierregautreau2882]

Hi Michael. Love your channel and your Nord sound. What grand are you using?

[@michaelkeithson]

Hey Pierre! Thanks for the comment, glad you're enjoying the content. I think for this video I was using the White Grand XL. 👍

[@pierregautreau2882]

@@michaelkeithson Much appreciated! Do you have a fav from the Nord library?

[@michaelkeithson]

@@pierregautreau2882 Probably not, I've found that certain pianos work better in different settings. I am a fan of their upright pianos, particularly the Grand and Felt models.

[@MrUmandMrEr]

There are other piano channels?!

[@michaelkeithson]

😂 No, look away!

[@Phaseish]

when i saw this video , I don't think this progression was good with the players they had. The guitartists killed it so good, but idk there is something about it soonah is crazy tho lol you slipping. I heard this new taylor swift album and was bored to tears because there is no tension at all, I hate hearing pop 2, 5, 1 6's with not one fucking diminished chord. / sub chord nothing. so Yeah I can def be snobby with "simple miusic" when the 2, 5,,1 cadences, are there , but the producer/ artist don't take full advantage of what it is, but all the greats could? I think that's why I love LAUFEY so much & a great example. A great example is Innervisions stevies album literreally has everything in it for everyone and any mood. Music just sucks now It's okay , some music sucking I can deal with . some I can't. But theory def helps any indivuaul in creation of music. even if its just so that you know what key you're in. but rules that BACH used , obv not. no parrallel 5ths lol what a joke.

[@michaelkeithson]

I'm not a fan of Taylor Swift but my argument would be that for her, her main focus of her songs it to communicate a message/story through her lyrics and she uses the pop medium to do that, unfortunately the conventions of today's pop are pretty unexciting harmonically. But I guess that doesn't bother her because she's still able to achieve what she sets out to do. Laufey may well have the same desire as TS but clearly also has an intent to do it in a different idiom or style which requires a different approach to her harmony. Both are completely valid in my opinion. Plus if Bach didn't want to use parallel 5ths because he didn't like it, that's fine, each to their own. But obviously, if someone wanted to compose in the style of Bach, then you know what they need to do. Thanks for the conversation! 👍

[@josephsilbiger8601]

For once I can say that I'm glad to replace your wife. 😅

[@michaelkeithson]

😂 Ha! And only in this context please! 🤣