Ruling | Missed Trigger and Cheating Investigation | Judge conference

Watch an investigation, ruling, and feedback involving forgetting Captive Audience's triggered ability from the Mock Tournament judge conference in Indianapolis.
This is NOT from a real game. This is a workshop where experienced judges act as players and use role play to help acquaint newer judges with the best practices for taking a call.

[@Dexroid]

Player: "JuudDDGE?! Judge: *Dramatic hair flip, anime eye twinkle*

[@informitas0117]

Judge: "ara ara"

[@Vincerama]

Who summons me!?

[@Dexroid]

@@Vincerama is that a wizard reference from warcraft 2?

[@mushrumman5137]

This video is so much more wholesome once you realize they are all judges

[@deadeyeridge]

Poor judge was so nervous.

[@tjcofer7517]

He wanted to avoid conflict so badly :/

[@andrewut7ya511]

I think this is a traininng excersise, pretty sure they are all judges pretending to be players which would make me more nervous lol.

[@joeblack363]

He mock Agnes it's a judging conference you dork

[@NathanLipetz]

@@andrewut7ya511yup. It’s what we do at judge conferences. It’s still (if not even more so) nerve-wracking cause you are in front of your peers, many of which who know better if you are newer or lower level. The 2 players are also for sure judges and you feel as if they are judging your every word as well

[@hamsterfromabove8905]

@@tjcofer7517 There was no real conflict. This was a staged event. Both players were experienced judges playing in a mock tournament for the express purpose of training the inexperienced judge. They fabricated an incident explicitly to test the new judge's response.

[@TrafalgarLawSamaLaw]

"okay so thats like the end of the "ruling" phase, now we can start the "talking about it" phase" this killed me

[@username4835]

You should declare the end of phases to give others a chance to respond. Remember you can scoop faster than split-second.

[@2019inuyasha]

Judge my opponent is trying to scoop. I played lightning bolt and he was at 2 life. Damage should resolve.

[@BDtetra]

in casual games scooping should be done at sorcery speed, let the opponent play out and have the satisfaction in tournaments its split-split-second

[@unknownyoutuber2007]

A wise judge once told me, "It is not your job to remind your opponent of their triggers." Not your control? Not your problem.

[@marcvongabain9016]

Ah, but it was their control. They weren't the owner, but he was the controller.

[@unknownyoutuber2007]

@@marcvongabain9016 No, this is wrong. The owner of a card is whomever sat down at the table with it. Player A (left) sat down at the table with Captive Audience in their starting library, therefore he is the owner of it. Player B is the controller of it. Captive Audience entered in the battlefield under his control. As controller, Player B is responsible for maintaining it. This includes putting the upkeep triggers on the stack and resolving them appropriately. So if you mean that Player A should have stepped in to resolve Player B's trigger, no he would not have been responsible for it. Player B is responsible.

[@marcvongabain9016]

@@unknownyoutuber2007 yeah, that's what i meant. I misunderstood your quote. Sorry

[@CosmicEncounter7]

Edit: The following dribble that I wrote took more into account the philosophy of the rule itself than the specific scenario, which is itself a case of bad sportsmanship even disregarding other issues. So... please respond with that in mind. I disagree. If I wasn't prepared to have the card in front of me, and I had NO choice in the matter whatsoever, I shouldn't be responsible for its trigger if an opponent gave it to me. If I forget that, that should be accepted gamestate. Otherwise this just opens the door for a bunch of players to call judge in bad faith and take advantage of an opponent's poor memory to get free game wins. It's an incredibly dishonest strategy, and it's not reasonable to expect a player to remember every time. The key point here is that player B did not consciously choose to take control of it, so they should not be responsible. And if you're saying that this is simply how the rules work, then the rules should be changed.

[@sam7559]

​@unknownyoutuber2007 I understand that per rules the controller is the one responsible and that mostly works given that the controller is typically also the owner and thus expects and understands the card. Captive Audience should honestly work like a curse. If I did not play the card I shouldn't be the one with ultimate responsibility for the card.

[@ramoncitoramos2492]

I'm not smart enough to play this game but the painting on the cards are pretty rad

[@ramoncitoramos2492]

@use. adblock on my channel please is there like a beginner club or discord

[@billcravens5907]

Its OK a lot of the people that play this game regularly don't understand the rules the way they should.

[@marccote6851]

Its okk they just put bob ross mana paint if you like ;D

[@JudgingFtW]

@@ramoncitoramos2492 Best bet to learn is to find a game store in your area that sells Magic the Gathering. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, the rules are pretty complicated to learn, which is one big reason my channel exists. One nice thing is that (when big irl tournaments were a thing) artists would often go to them, so you could directly support/interact with them, which was one of my favorite parts.

[@kharnthebetrayer1575]

I’m new , I luckily have a buddy who’s played for yrs. so as said find a local store , I’m sure people there would be willing to help, and a way cheap deck is a cycling deck. Could be made for maybe $20. Don’t put in any rares at the start.

[@alexlogan202]

This is way better than the arrest videos on KZbin

[@kasperkappin]

so real pookie

[@tuccimane]

This is exactly what I would expect to see at one of these things.

[@jacklaffey3529]

To clarify this event is purely to train judges there's no real games happening but yes it's still pretty accurate haha

[@diehardeaglesfansince1994]

i think he was talking about them being a bunch of nerds ​@@jacklaffey3529

[@BlasphemousActs]

He even admitted that it was the scariest thing on the board and knew it was there and attempted to skip the trigger, the card itself also doesn’t say ‘may’ so it’s mandatory that it happens regardless of which player calls it out.

[@MrQuizboy]

Exactly what I was going to say. It happens no matter who brings it up.

[@ShimrraJamaane]

The problem was that he drew a card and the only option left on the trigger was to discard the hand. Thus, it could be either player cheating; left hopes other player forgets trigger to attempt to have right discard an extra card while right could have intentionally skipped the trigger and is bluffing that he didn't know. That's the crux of the issue.

[@ShimrraJamaane]

@Seeing Through or the scenario could be inverted where the owner of the card quickly reminded the controller the first two times and intentionally didn't do so on the third in an attempt to have the controller miss a detrimental trigger. In that instance, it's the owner, not the controller, cheating. (They discussed that exacg scenario in the video)

[@common0324]

@@ShimrraJamaane except not reminding a player of a trigger theyre in charge of is not breaking a rule. A rule must be broken for it to be cheating

[@ShimrraJamaane]

@@common0324 they went over it in the video. Either scenario could occur. Both of which could be cheating. It would be cheating for the owner to lull the controller into forgetting the trigger. There are two cheating scenarios and both are viable possibilities.

[@SimKill]

He knew the trigger should have gone off. Bad sportsmanship, should be disqualified

[@idontwantone132]

This is a roleplay scenario. Judge training

[@connorreed779]

100%

[@JosePineda-jn8jk]

@@idontwantone132🤣 these role plays have gone too deep.

[@TP_Gillz]

Btw, judge was spot on when he came back, it was a detrimental missed trigger, its not on the OWNER of the card to remind you of what cards that you CONTROL do... And because it was on the board for 3 turns already, he knew damn well it was there and what it did lol he even admitted to it, but I can see why he would want the rule to be the other way around obviously but sorry it aint.

[@2019inuyasha]

The owner Dave, resolved the trigger both the other 2 turns, so it makes sense his opponent would not think it is his trigger.

[@91mattmac]

Rules are one thing. People are another. Best thing about knowing the rules really well is also knowing where/when/how to break them. Player on the left’s intent was kind of clear that he was trying to setup his opponent, even without the fact that he had reminded his opponent of the prior 2 triggers. This isn’t as simple as a judge call, this seemed meditated. Player on the left also admitted to being caught cheating in the past as well so. Especially how forceful he was with the language he used, basically telling the judge/viewer how to think vs the player on the right and his reaction to the whole situation. Out of both players, the player on the left acted the most suspect from how he was trying to control the discussion with his force language. Reminds me of my 10 y/o trying to control the conversation when I’m scolding him even though he knows he’s in the wrong.

[@Ryansilverman-r7g]

He didn’t want to be at 4 life

[@justice5776]

@@91mattmac It is a "mock tournament judge conference" so player on the left is present to create the situation where the judges are being trained and tested

[@achabotte]

I mean, that is the dumbest fucking idea. That you could throw cards into your opponents control and make them responsible for all the effects... Your card = Your responsibility imo Though it should be just a "Aight trigger the effect and keep playing" ruling anyway

[@TP_Gillz]

For a game that is relatively simple to learn, there are SO many different interactions and rules to master. Long live MTG! I miss playing with real cards against slightly real people!

[@horizonfan]

This game is far from simple lmao this game gets updated every 3 months 😂

[@TomMurphy-gy4dm]

@@horizonfan Yes but I've taught people how to play in 20 minutes.

[@ackbooh9032]

Everyone involved seems to be unable to communicate basic board states, intentions and exact consequences in full sentences

[@ThorGuitarCovers]

Probably because you can't hear squat. The video is like trying to listen to 15 songs at the same time. Too many voices, no clarity.

[@kelseyo402]

This one is wild. Because as an opponent you are aloud to let your opponents miss triggers. If you think the trigger is not yours to remember then you would think “Well I’m just letting him miss the trigger” when in reality you are deliberately making a large game error. I didn’t even catch the potential trap from Left until they brought it up. Wow. Well done!

[@markovart6094]

Aloud?

[@alchapwn]

​@@markovart6094its not my job to play your side of the board for you.

[@Jay-rb5pg]

If this was my table it would have been a warning for both. The warning for the card owner would fall under IPG 4.1. The owner of the card committed an act to knowingly gain an advantage over their opponent through unsportsmanlike behavior. Through the previous two turns a misunderstanding of the responsibility on the trigger was created by the owner of the card which he then used to create a scenario to gain a strategic advantage.

[@DakonBlackblade2]

I sometimes think ppl overthink everything and the rulings only make things worse. Maybe because I only play in my small LGS in Brazil and we don't have a judge, its us the players and the store owner keeping everything going smooth, I just think things like this are super easy to solve. Simply go back to the upkeep, return card drawn to the top of the deck, if you can't determine which one is it do one at random or have him discard both cards and draw a new one at the draw step, and then go on with your life. Dude who was aware of the card but intentionally skipped its effect is a jerk but still no harm was done, dude who tried to have him have no hand is a jerk but still it wasn't a problem. Just fix the situation and move on with the game instead of making it into a 50 minutes thing.

[@plunkdaddy4505]

@@DakonBlackblade2 I somewhat disagree with your solutions. With the first solution, there is no real way to prove which card was drawn. If it’s within a playgroup and the player is trusted, that’s one thing But if it’s a tournament there is no way to prove it. The second solution has a potential bigger problem. First the player who forgot the trigger can have a huge advantage through being able to draw an extra card. If they were searching for an answer they have an extra chance to draw into what they need. It can also advance their board state if they’re playing a deck that revolves around the graveyard, such as dredge decks.

[@tjcofer7517]

@@plunkdaddy4505 his solutions I think are geared toward kitchen table magic. If everyone is playing in good faith just go back and fix the problem and move on easy peasy. If people are trying to eek out every speck of advantage then the way rulings are done by judges in formal settings is designed to prevent abuse.

[@tjcofer7517]

If I am playing in a casual pod and I draw an extra card because they stuck together to avoid wasting time because it is just a game and no one is trying to cheat just put the extra card back on top and move on. But having a judge come and pick a random card from you hand to put on top of your deck is the best way of dealing with people who may try to abuse the way people normally deal with it in kitchen table magic

[@DakonBlackblade2]

@@tjcofer7517 Well keeping 1 card in the dude's hand and discarding the other at random would work too on this situation btw.

[@mononuk]

My favorite bit was every time they knocked on the table. Great video though, very interesting to see how judges are trained!

[@xenwall]

I know that I'm years late to the party but I've only just found your channel. I don't even play MTG anymore but love rules and systems and this video is one of the most entertaining that I've seen. The back and forth and development was enlightening and the narrative around "did anyone cheat" was such a brain buster. This setting is far more interesting than the usual thought exercises usually seen for card rulings as well. Thank you for posting this.

[@bsmartr806]

I can't believe they talked about this for 35minutes...

[@Ryansilverman-r7g]

They totally fucked up the tournament because they literally have two people waiting to start the match. Both are at fault, especially the player on the left for not reminding his opponent before playing victim.

[@trollingsoul3386]

@@Ryansilverman-r7g it was practice one so hear them out next time instead of crying.

[@Ryansilverman-r7g]

@@trollingsoul3386 who said anything about crying? Lmfao!

[@kylegonewild]

@@Ryansilverman-r7g the whole thing is staged for training.

[@horizonfan]

@@Ryansilverman-r7gnope person the right should of did what his enchantment said to do lmao 😂

[@xaer0knight]

I am totally subbing to this channel. I've been playing since the Dark and cheaters is the #1 reason players get discouraged from playing in competitive formats

[@Romans1-8]

Ime, it's been the high entry price.

[@pepperypeppers2755]

This is a staged scenario for the benefit of judge training. Check description

[@SwedeRacerDC]

​@@pepperypeppers2755 I could tell, because the two players are very civil and courteous, though clearly the player on the right had some malicious intent in this training scenario.

[@user-qw3oh3dx1o]

If you have enough board wipes cheaters can’t cheat

[@salbaca1104]

I am a competitive yugioh player and judge and play magic when I can and judging at my locals I really wish konami who runs the event would do events like this to better teach the judges how to interact with players for a judge call

[@danielsash2079]

I wish konami would and Richard would be the best teacher

[@counturblessings1179]

Ever had a judge rule banisher of the radiance as a trigger? Cuz i have and lost even after disputing it cuz head judge wanted to side with his judge friend thats why i also believed early on there should of been records of rulings/judge calls at sanctioned events to look back and hold bad judges accountable

[@gregmorales6194]

I agree. I'd 100% attend something like this for Yugioh.

[@DavidEBowyerJr.]

I love heavy/complex games and used to play magic often. This is so enjoyable to watch. These judges are getting some awesome instruction and guidance.

[@martinteece8983]

I'm getting hooked on these vids.

[@kevinnines6924]

We are getting hooked on mtg judge role play videos at the same time... wild

[@railynmartinsmith]

you & me both dude

[@Hate-Crime]

🎭

[@jonathanpine9253]

And this is why I keep track of all triggers.. mine and my opponents

[@allanturmaine5496]

Your brain is wrinklier than mine. I play on the honour system.

[@Arielsantondesign]

I thought i knew nerdy ppl, but after watching this video I've known a whole New level

[@101Spacetime]

They’re just very into what they’re doing unlike other people aren’t into anything as much whatever they do.

[@Nolifeterran]

The guy playing on the left is actually a magic judge. So he knew exactly what was going on and the correct calling.

[@richardmullens4707]

You don't get this kind of problem playing Top Trumps. 😁

[@Catadafish]

​@@Nolifeterranyes he was the alpha nerd

[@jamesgable54]

kenny move

[@CamperCarl00]

At first I was on the right players side since it felt like the player on the left was trying to win through a technicality, but the card in question and his own admission changed that. It's pretty clear that he is trying to intentionally skip the mandatory trigger of a card he controls (even if he doesn't own it). The real problem is that he *has to discard his hand this turn* and due to him drawing a card there's no easy solution. Sure, it can be argued that the player on the left has the most to gain from any ruling the judge can make, but the scenario has the player on the right admitting knowingly that he forgot his trigger.

[@victoraraujo3315]

The point here is that the player on the left might have forgotten the trigger on purpose, he just didn't admit it. Because missing the trigger would benefit him, knowing the player on the right would have to discard two cards after que trigger goes to the stack.

[@CharlotteMimic]

The whole way through I was like, I'm pretty sure Dave's not cheating, technically. It was funny how both players knew about the trigger and tried to game the system for an advantage, and yet neither possessed all three elements for cheating.

[@CEASR22MANIAK]

Yeah, 20 minutes in and I think they both deserve a warning. One tried to get an advantage by for getting the trigger, and the other one clearly knew what was happening and let the game state get to a point where he could call a judge. Both of then are assholes and because of it 35 minutes of the game were wasted because of both their actions.

[@pitmaster226]

@@CEASR22MANIAKnot wasted. They are all judges, this is a roleplay scenario for teaching.

[@CEASR22MANIAK]

@@pitmaster226 True but it was based on an actual event that happened. I know the people in the video are just testing the judge but the point still stands . It’s not a waste of time in this instance, but if this actually came up in a game, the same warnings should still be applied, and time will still be overall wasted.

[@TomMurphy-gy4dm]

@@CEASR22MANIAK Nope. The guy on the left is 100% innocent. It's not his responsibility and he knows it. "Upkeep" followed by staring silently, followed by just drawing a card, gives technically no time to point out that he missed something. If the guy on the right was ignorant, it would be his fault. Since he actually did it on purpose, it's twice as bad.

[@calumryan6328]

@@CEASR22MANIAK the whole point is that they're training so that it wont take so much time in a real game

[@antiwhatever5391]

Judge was being way to nice. He controls the card he missed the trigger. Controller vs owner is very different.

[@Jay-rb5pg]

The problem with that statement is the game set a presidente where the controller was lead to believe the owner of the card is responsible for the trigger. As discussed later in the video both players committed actions that meet 2 out of the three requirements for cheating. Owner due to intentionally setting up a situation where they lead the opponent into a false understanding of responsibility for the trigger in order to gain an advantage falls under IPG 4.1 and is a warning. Controller where they missed a required trigger to an unfair advantage falls under IPG 2.5 and is a warning. The owner of the card should have waited until the controller was at their first upkeep with the new card and called a judge if the trigger was missed on the first time, doing so would result in a responsibility clarification and an IPG 2.1 notification which is a non warning for both players, if the controller then proceeds to miss the trigger again its a IPG 2.5 escalation of the IPG 2.1 situation listed above.

[@Jay-rb5pg]

This is part of the reason current Judging states that both players have a shared responsibility to maintain proper game state. That is IGP 3.10

[@Andriak2]

@@Jay-rb5pg This is actually fascinating, I wouldn't have thought about any of this. The furthest of my understanding was that having drawn the 2nd card before the trigger went on the stack was important.

[@Jay-rb5pg]

@@Andriak2 it is important. The resolution of the judge call in this situation is the trigger goes on the stack while the player has two cards in hand and due to the unfair advantage gained the owner and the controller both gain a warning.

[@itskmillz]

@@Jay-rb5pg I don't understand how the owner could have lead the opponent into a false understanding of responsibility for the trigger? By reminding them of the trigger twice and then not doing it the 3rd time?

[@skykrow]

I don't think it was cheating for the NAP in the context of the card, its a card where you can only pick each mode once, and the other two modes were chosen already. Theres only one mode left to choose, so its reasonable to believe that he would not have a need to "remind" the AP of the trigger. With this being an upkeep trigger, calling a missed trigger would happen after the AP drew. So the timing of the call would also be correct within the context

[@dajusta87]

But then the NAP admitted that he wanted the advantage of having his opponent discard two cards instead of one.

[@SpitefulAZ]

What an amazing interaction! I loved this video. The call kept going back and forth based on the particular card, specific rules, information learned, so interesting!

[@horizonfan]

Lmao it’s like none of the judges play magic the card is simple homboy on the right doesn’t wanna pick his poison lmao 😂 he has to answer it regardless

[@podrekreinhard]

​@@horizonfan im pretty sure this is a test for the judge, so he needs to make sure its done correctly. The obvious thing to do here is say "ok, nothing has happened yet, so go back and pick one and then proceed" but because of the weird situation of card ownership and control being different and different cards having diffetent rulings that have been established and recorded specifically for judges to follow its important that the judge gets this specific ruling 100% correct, especially when other judges are there to observe him

[@masondeitrick]

@@podrekreinhardexcept youre wrong. “Nothing has happened yet” is false. Right player drew a card after missing the trigger so he could be DQ’d for missing an unmissable trigger

[@Melpheos1er]

In this simulated situation, the player said that he knew that the trigger should occur but can say that he thought that it was for the owner of the card to call the trigger like he did in the video. There is no way to know if this is true or not in a real life situation. The judge call to continue with forcing the trigger would be the right call. Obviously, if on the second game he would pull the same trick then the judge could give him a loss as he then knows that it's the role of the controller to manager his triggers

[@PandaDSU]

Isn't it considered both players' "job" to track triggers? This is how I was taught. Plus, as the permanent's owner, isn't it heavily on him? Specifically to avoid "gotcha" disqualifications?

[@ethanwilliams4559]

A lot of judges in wizards' events aren't any good with defining or even caring about sportsmanship or even the rules anymore. Someone I played with at the local shop went to the regional tournament in Portland Oregon. He played against a transgender and they were doing that thing where a player knows they will lose if they pass the turn but the time limit is almost over so they draw out their turn to steal the time and turn from their opponent to get a cheap win. He noticed that and said "dude will you hurry up and stop stalling the turn." You bet you know how that went. They threw up a storm about "wrong pronoun" this and "bigotry" and they tried to get him disqualified for it. Of course he made his case and as much as they'd liked to they couldn't for that reason so instead they booted him out for "being impatient and trying to rush his opponent." And the transfuck who was trying to use dirty tricks to get ahead was obviously given the win and got to move on in the tournament. It's why I don't want to play in a wizards'tournament.

[@TurtleBoxOfficial]

No. It's your responsibility to track triggers of permanents you control. Jackie Lee, a female pro, lost a major event because her opponent abused this rule. He purposely missed triggers on the card stab wound that would have dramatically changed his life total and willingly misinformed Jackie. The judge ruled in his favor because despite the card being attached to his creature it was HER card. She was disqualified and it was pretty clear there was some gender bias by the judge and more specifically the player. The rule was changed in a sense, allowing judges to view cases situationally with the root rule in mind that you're responsible for your triggers of your permanents. Jackie Lee now works at WotC at R&D to prevent stupid rules like this from ever being used to abuse matches.

[@Xplayer007]

The rules may have changed over the years, but current policy says you are not obligated to remind your opponent of their triggers but are obligated to remember your own.

[@sephirothrr]

@@TurtleBoxOfficial you have this all wrong - it was jackie's creature that had the stab wound, and as such it was her life total that was going down. her opponent wrote down the changed life totals, which jackie agrees she saw, but they disagree on whether or not he verbalized it. regardless, she knew that there was a discrepancy in the life totals and she didn't bring it up, as she is required by the rules to do, and since she, by her own admission, did that to gain a competitive advantage, it's an automatic DQ

[@TurtleBoxOfficial]

@@sephirothrr That's a lot of words to say "I hate women"

[@wo0topia]

Is there more of this out there? I could watch this shit for hours. I love learning the rules through really cool "thought experiments" like these(that happen every day).

[@ikejohnson5494]

It’s not a may ability. You can’t ignore it. The guy on the right was just trying to cheat. “I looked at him” is an admission that he knew he had to do it and he decided not to.

[@phillipmaragno2897]

Oh yea well said

[@patmacrotch5611]

Right, but he didn’t know it was his responsibility to call the trigger. He knew he had the trigger, but he thought it was the other players responsibility to call it because it was his card. Therefore you can’t “prove” intent, or knowingly breaking a rule, ie cheating.

[@tjcofer7517]

@Bo Kuen Tao uh cheating is intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage. You can't accidentally cheat it was a game play error and the judge made the right call according to the rules on how to deal with the missed trigger.

[@BooserBoi]

Haven’t finished the video yet, but I would say remembering triggers is on both players, but in situations like this where it’s beneficial for a player to “forget”, then it’s 100% on the cards controller. If the that effect was on a creature card no one would be confused, they’d all say it’s up to whoever controls the creature to do the effect. Edit : Like let’s say it’s a creature with a mandatory discard 1 card at upkeep effect. If you mind control that creature away, how is it now my job to remind you to discard a card?

[@TurtleBoxOfficial]

The rules specifically say you're responsible of the tactivation of triggers of permanents you control. Like I said above, the Jackie Lee situation is an AMAZING example of why this rule needed to be "adjusted" to a match by match basis because sometimes cheaters or poor sports players will abuse it.

[@phillipfrancine2027]

your a little mixed up, while yes due to the wording of this specific card and rule 603.3a "A triggered ability is controlled by the player who controlled its source at the time it triggered..." the player on the right is the controller and therefore responsible for the trigger in this situation. you stated that if a creature was enchanted there would be no question and it would be the controller of the creature, which if I'm not interpreting the rules wrong is false. in rule 303.2. "When an enchantment spell resolves, its controller puts it onto the battlefield under their control." and specifically for auras, 303.4e "An Aura’s controller is separate from the enchanted object’s controller or the enchanted player; the two need not be the same. If an Aura enchants an object, changing control of the object doesn’t change control of the Aura, and vice versa. Only the Aura’s controller can activate its abilities. However, if the Aura grants an ability to the enchanted object (with “gains” or “has”), the enchanted object’s controller is the only one who can activate that ability." Anyways not bashing on you by any means, just been brushing up on rules and wanted to share the wealth.

[@michaelmurray6197]

Talk about twists. Guy on the right misses a trigger on purpose, but he didn't cheat because he thought it was the opponents responsibility to remind him about the trigger. Guy on the left had reminded him the last two rounds, but didn't remind him the third time because he wants it to be ruled that he has to discard the card he just pulled in addition to the card that was already in his hand. But the guy on the left isn't cheating, even though he is doing something to knowingly gain an advantage over his opponent, he didn't break any rules since it wasn't his responsibility to remind his opponent about the trigger. Explanation that neither cheated and why is around 23:30. So the judge ruling is that neither cheated and the guy on the left can now have the guy on the right discard his hand, that ruling is around 7:40. Then there is all the discussion about if anyone cheated and realizing that neither did cheat. And then we finally get the end of the game where the guy on the left decides to have the guy on the right discard his hand, but it goes into a stack type situation and the guy on the right now has the cards to respond and kills the guy on the left and he ends up winning the game, which is at 27:45 in the video. Only reason I can imagine this video only has a quarter million views is because there aren't more people that play MTG and understand all the twists and surprises in this video. Plus it's a mock game, so they did set it up to have this result, but it's still crazy that it's a mock game that could legitimately play out like this. Just imagine if this actually happened during a tournament that was being streamed. Everyone going on about who cheated and didn't cheat, finding out that neither cheated, and then the guy that intentionally missed the trigger which started all the controversy ends up winning (potentially with the card that he should have discarded if he hadn't missed the trigger). Although I don't know enough about MTG to know for sure that he couldn't have played that card before he would have had to discard it.

[@ChooceMooce]

This is such an interesting concept. Judges role playing players who are discussing/arguing a ruling to teach etc. Does this happen often? (Maybe not now but before COVID) Also do you play games that you intend to specifically end up in a ruling being needed? Like you set the scenario for it, or you just play a game and try to make something come up/hope something comes up?

[@JudgingFtW]

In my area (midwest USA), we had these about once a quarter before covid. The calls are a mix of calls the experienced judges semi-scripted to have an interesting ruling and stuff that came up naturally in the games. For the final round, I always prepared a much more elaborate and challenging ruling designed to give the novice judges some experience with cheating investigations, which are notoriously difficult to teach and get experience with. The call in this video was one of those. I also worked through the investigation with the judges afterward, which is another video on this playlist.

[@ZovcDrafts]

@@JudgingFtW could you please include these playlists in your video descriptions? I just found this channel and these are very interesting and illuminating. I'm using crappy headphones on a noisy bus so this video is basically inaudible. I know audio is super hard (and this video is old so you may have improved), but some things that might help if you have the budget/support: lav mics for the subjects--my school has the Rhode Wireless Go (2?)s, and I love them, very simple. If you have the space and rigging, a shotgun mic above the camera, pointing towards the center of the area everyone is talking to could layer up with the lavs and help if you need to use noise reduction on one or both signals. If you're recording on a computer in real time, I've never tried RTX Voice on a group but it might help? It works very well for me by myself with like an AC and street noise. Great concept and effort, hope this is received as constructive. Thanks!

[@NathanLipetz]

Yes, this is the standard in judge conferences. At least back when I used to judge between 2016-2019 ish. It’s rare that these are recorded however and it’s cool to see this.

[@gearsofwill9]

What were they talking about breaking out of roleplay and such.

[@JudgingFtW]

This is a role played scenario at an event to train Magic judges. Both the players in this clip are experienced judges who are presenting the scenario, but also giving feedback on how the newer judges taking the calls are doing. Hence the distinctions between things the experienced judges are saying "in character" and "out of character"

[@jeffhall5375]

Ignorance of the rules does not subjugate you from the consequences.

[@poetguillaume659]

Mostly good Gigantic hole: Active player announces untap then untapped Active player announces upkeeps then draws a card in the wrong phase.

[@8Smoker8]

You don't have to explicitely announce draw step you do it implicitely by drawing one card unless there are other ambiguos upkeep triggers that could be mistaken for the draw step card draw. No huge hole.

[@poetguillaume659]

@8Smoker8. Almost true The active players set up the president that he announce phase changes. Also all players get a chance to respond the the end of a phase. If the non active players wanted to do something before the active player drew then he would get several chances first at the end of phase and again after the initial first card draw trigger in the draw step is put on the stack. Just drawing a card is a casual short cut in actual fact all these steps must be recognized

[@8Smoker8]

@@poetguillaume659 he doesn't have to follow his own "precedent", it's entirely up to him; the non active player had his chance when the active player said "upkeep" and looked at him, they both agree on that. I'll tell you more, if there are no upkeep triggers on the board, it's up to the non active player to stop the active one before draw step. Nobody waits for upkeep unless there's an obvious reason to, even in important games. Yes, you do have a chance to respond to the end of a phase, but the other player doesn't have to ask you every time. He can't play super fast, but it's up to you to declare you have something you want to do.

[@poetguillaume659]

@@8Smoker8 You have just conceded my point there are active triggers left on the stack during the upkeep. Had the active player announced the end than the non active could have spoken if he had correctly put the draw trigger on the stack then the non active could have spoken. Instead he intentionality rushed through both of the non active players priorities to gain an advantage. The first time the non active players knows his priorities were passed is when the active player sees his card AND shuffles it in his hand.

[@8Smoker8]

@@poetguillaume659 Not at all. You were arguing the active player should declare the end of upkeep which is insane. If you wanna talk about this specific case, which you haven't been so far, the issue here is that the active player wrongfully believed it was up to his opponent to choose the trigger. So he was wrong about that, in his mind he gave his opponent the chance to activate the trigger and his opponent forgot. But he was not wrong about not declaring the end of upkeep, since he had already declared "upkeep" in the first place. You don't declare every single priority pass in paper magic, it's not MTGO you'd be crazy to believe otherwise. LOL. In other words: in this case active player failed to activate a mandatory negative trigger in his upkeep, it's his fault for drawing past that trigger obviously. BUT your argument that the active player should be declaring priority switches and even "end of upkeep" (which is not even a priority switch from "upkeep" btw) is ludicrous. Again, paper is not MTGO, you skip a lot of priority and phase changes in many situations.

[@allanturmaine5496]

One benefit to Arena is that it forces detrimental triggers, or more likely, the concede button.

[@sonicjms]

This video really needs closed captions

[@J_GoTTi]

I love how respectful everyone was. The judge really just wants to do right by them and in my opinion was super cool about it.

[@finesty7613]

I don't understand why this was so complicated aside from deciding which course of action to take about him drawing a card but even then, no option on that card actually matters about the card he has drawn. So I'm assuming there is something in the ruling that I don't know about but the card enters player under the CONTROL of an opponent of your choice. He chooses the opponent, that enchantment is now under the opponent's control. The card then says "At the beginning of your upkeep, choose one that hasn't been chosen --- ". It doesn't say you "may" in any of the verbiage so... it's not a choice of whether it happens or not, one of the options HAS to happen and if no option was chosen, then it's technically cheating of the player that controls the enchantment. It's just an infraction of the rules. It may be an honest mistake and unintentional but still the player's fault that controls the enchantment I.E. player on the right. Actually, because the player on the right admitted to "looking" at his opponent to see if he holds him accountable to make a choice... he intentionally cheated.

[@sket179]

I don't play magic, but what I gathered from this long discussion is that the guy on the left was guilty of bad sportsmanship which is scummy, but you're allowed to act deviously. The guy on the right is ignorant and relies to the guy on the left to remind him on the detrimental trigger? So the the crux is that should the guy on the left keep handholding throughout the whole game after he has given the card to the guy on the right, or was the initial aid a generosity he can withdraw at any point?

[@AzgarthX]

as a judge, hearing that someone missed their trigger during upkeep and went to draw phase, why wouldn't you just tell the guy "you're shit out of luck you missed your trigger...TOO BAD...anyways move along" ?. I know the match is fake and this is to train new judges but its pretty clear that the trigger was missed. What is there to think about or debate?

[@PROTEUS_SEER-OF-EONS]

You can see the decades of experience difference between the sitting and the standing participants in this exercise.

[@dave.6348]

How did I end up here. I’ve never even played this game before

[@brendancoleman4425]

Same, and after hearing the insufferable creature that yelled "judgggggggggggge" I am glad that I have never played magic.

[@jbrandona119]

Great acting 👍 didn’t realize the training was this intense 😂

[@rolo1344]

it is up to the person controlling THEIR field/board to call the triggers, the owner can literally just wait for you to miss a trigger and call judge every time if they wanted. if the case was the other way then it would be up to the owner to decide even what part triggered but they can't now can they?

[@SpiderWaffle]

20:10 Is one of the 3 criteria "knowing" it was breaking a rule or "intending" to break a rule? Either way, what exactly does that mean? Such in this case, he seemed to know the permanent was supposed to trigger, he may not have know known it was his responsibility to trigger it. Which kind of knowing matters here? Or for intending, he seemed to intend to not let the permanent trigger to gain an advantage. Does it matter if he thought it wasn't his responsibility? if so why? And if so couldn't any player easily pretend to not think that things are their responsibility while breaking rules knowingly and intentionally to gain advantages?

[@TomMurphy-gy4dm]

I have no idea, but this is about as clear a case of bad sportsmanship as there is. Immediate game loss, no question.

[@dwaynebrice1697]

BUT what if Steven missed a trigger that benefits him, is he a cheater then too? Edit: I have been in Steve's position where I did not know what a card did and the player opposing me did not give me the privilege of understanding. Yes I could have asked to read the card. Third turn comes around I missed the trigger because I assumed it was over for one reason or another, he called the judge and said I was cheating but the truth is I was ignorant. Turns out he was notorious for doing things like this when he is losing the game. I made the mistake, he set me up to fail so he could have an advantage. Its dangerous. Some people dont show up reading everything assuming that everyone is their opponent.

[@joshuabenitez3260]

"Ignorance is not an excuse of breaking the law". That is what we hear in law school.

[@brofst]

missing beneficial triggers isn't cheating, it doesn't satisfy the 3rd requirement. In your scenario it sounds like you didn't satisfy the 2nd requirement either, so you would be very far from cheating. 1. break the rule (which you did) 2. know that you were breaking the rule (doesn't sound like it) 3. break the rule for the purpose of gaining an advantage (not the case because trigger is beneficial)

[@jdub-replicant]

nice attention to detail for officiating a card game. the fact that there is a card you can put on opponent that becomes their responsibility to manage is a pretty difficult game mechanic to have to manage. props to this process for teaching how to effectively handle a difficult interaction like this. don't play MTG but other games and i'd like to think that there should be some ownership (despite controller owns the call) that the person who played the "captive audience" card has some onus to remind. there's a healthy sized tableau on the board on both sides so not out of the realm of possibility that one could remember the trigger on prior rounds but forget. in all honesty, 2 people playing could roll back some actions to make sure the game progresses appropriately. tough but cool judge teaching moment.

[@apanapane]

This was a super interesting case with so much nuance. Thanks for sharing! I would love to see similar videos but in a quiet setting so that the audio quality is improved. Perhaps setting up a scenario and inviting guests? :)

[@angst_]

I think a good question to ask Dave's opponent would be something like "when you looked at Dave during your upkeep, were you waiting for him to say something about the trigger?" It seems pretty simple, but if he said "yes" he's kind of admitting that he knew and remembered the trigger, but was waiting for Dave to say something. It might help establish that Dave's opponent had intent to miss the trigger if he wasn't called on it.

[@angst_]

I understand the no-backup rule, but simply put, my gut says: the trigger should've happened and it didn't. I feel like Dave's opponent should honor that regardless of who's responsibility it was to catch. He should have only 1 card in hand. If the card can't be determined, or there is no trust between players, then discarding a card at random seems like a decent compromise. Again, I'm no judge; I'm not even sure a compromise is allowed in situations like this, but it makes most sense to me as far as recreating the most "correct" board state. It would also show some form of good sportsmanship.

[@old-greg]

What I dont understand is, the guy on the right purposely missed it. There was no forgetting, he said, "I looked him in the eyes, then drew". There was no technically, he avoided it.

[@damionwhitehead1165]

You have to have all 3 elements to be considered cheating. One of those elements is the intention to break the rule. Magic is complicated. Breaking a rule on accident is ruled under other rules. Depending on the rule determines the outcome. But "No Cheating" has those 3 very specific elements. If you can't justify all 3 of them, then you don't call it cheating. For example, the penalty he was given, "missed detrimental trigger of a permanent you control but don't own" does not require you to knowingly miss it to be punished for breaking the rule. The punishment is a warning. It's only if you break a rule with the intention of breaking a rule and gaining an advantage that it becomes the specific infraction "Cheating."

[@Chpow01]

The response I would give if I owned the Captive Audience and did not remind would simply be "I don't need to see what he picks anymore, he only has one choice left, so he *must* discard his hand. When he stated he was leaving his upkeep I was simply expecting him to discard before drawing a card, he didn't so I called a judge". Realistically that is the real response I would give, I no longer have to prompt for a potential action I need to take (put zombies in play). When he was staring at me I didn't really assume it was see if he could skip the trigger, more would assume he is simply trying to show he does not care/intimidation.

[@brofst]

yes, that is the response you would give if that's actually what happened. If you were actually trying to cheat, it may not be that easy to describe that train of thought so carefully.

[@lobo2367]

"Can you do the judgement on camera? We want to see the process. We'll sit here silently so the audience can hear and see it." So that was a lie.

[@jansenmccloud]

isn't it simple? the card doesn't say "you may choose" which means you don't have a choice to not trigger it. that means if the opponent is kind enough he can remind you to trigger it before drawing a card. if that opportunity is missed you simply revert the steps you have done until you get to the point of trigger. the only bad thing is that you already have knowledge about the card you draw which might help you to decide which effect to choose. if you by yourself think it's unfair to select the effect then just roll a die. next time you will definitely remember to trigger it. (btw. didn't watched the whole video yet, let's see how the judge will decide 😊 )

[@reccaman]

This is really interesting because I know I am someone who does the "remember remember forget," and I really hate saying, "I am dumb and if it isn't a tool in my hand, it will slip, mentally, becuase I am not touching or physically holding it." I always use the metaphor of spinning plates, if I don't actively touch the plate, I will let it fall. Which is why I've learned to take three plus seconds every phase.

[@szylaj]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qaTNoJ6drZWji7M

[@DiogenesNephew]

Everyone makes mistakes, and they can happen in a variety of ways for any number of knowable and unknowable reasons. So "remember, remember, forget" is perfectly plausible.

[@abrahamplepcher8985]

I already reminded him twice and thought he then understood

[@TomMurphy-gy4dm]

@@Terrantular why did you cheat?

[@aaronhooper4803]

Is it illegal to ask someone to put a coin on top of their deck as a marker to remember upkeep triggers before drawing? That's how I do it in my commander group, don't know if it flies in tournament status

[@unclebanana]

Seems reasonable to me, but I don't know for sure

[@JudgingFtW]

Small totems or markers may be placed on your library to remind yourself of in-game events that will take place [MTR 3.8]. You may suggest to your opponent that they use such a marker, however whether they do so is up to them.

[@beingofstrange]

great idea man

[@RealAnimeSucksCopeAndSneed]

Absolutely legal and encouraged.

[@TomMurphy-gy4dm]

Neat idea. I just use my brain to remember that the upkeep is the second part of the turn.

[@AyePluh731]

madd respectful for a judge workshop scenario - love this

[@White6Rock6Shooter6]

"That was the Trostani one! OOOOOOOH, what was that RULE?!" Poor judge. XD

[@patrickm.blanchard8497]

Look at the intent and purpose of the card. It’s 7mana it’s supposed to be a power negative effect for you opponent. If he forgot to select the mode at the BEGINNING of his upkeep, then he should loose or DQ.

[@tkhilker4696]

Preface; I've been playing for over 10 years and feel I have a very good understanding of how the rules/game work, however, I know I still have a lot to learn in an ever changing game and don't claim to be an expert. Now that being said, I think this is pretty cut and dry. Controller of the card is responsible for the trigger since it uses the word "your". Also, the cards controller admitted that he was responsible for and picked the previous triggers. I believe being put on the spot on camera made the judge have a lapse in judgment.

[@proc5315]

He (on the right) was triggered by forgetting the triggers.... what the......??

[@brothergrimm9656]

This ruling and resolution took 30 minutes longer than it should have.

[@common0324]

The event is a workshop to go over these types of situations and anaylze them to best teach judges how to be better judges. Your comment is stupid. Its like watching a nfl team design teach and practice a play then say it took hours longer than the 10 seconds itll take to run the play on game day. Well no shit sherlock. You know it takes movies much longer to make than the 1.5 hours it takes for you to watch them too.

[@sammaier4485]

Player on the right missed a detrimental trigger on purpose. Clear cheating to me. There is no rule that says players have to act the same way the whole match.

[@hamsterfromabove8905]

This was not a real match. Both players were experienced judges that artificially created a scenario that was difficult to adjudicate as a the judge. Remember, remember, "forget" is extremely powerful and very unfair. If you remember something twice in a row that isn't technically your duty to remember then "forget" it for the third time it's really shifty behavior. A less experienced opponent might actually forget it because they believe that you'll remind them. Choosing not to remind them after building a habit of reminding them can cause them to not do something which puts them in violation of cheating. Obviously in a perfect world everyone remembers everything. But remember, remember, forget is a dirty trick to try to bait your opponent into "cheating". Player on the right made the mistake. Player on the left did a dirty trick that isn't breaking any rules to bait their opponent into breaking the rules. Now the judge has to decide what to do. Giving both a warning seems reasonable. These are the types of things that judge training needs to cover. Being a judge isn't always as simple as memorizing rules. Conflicts are often more nuanced than "who's technically in the right".

[@brofst]

He did not realize it was his trigger, he thought it belonged to the owner. It is at least ARGUABLY not cheating.

[@Livvvid]

I got accused of cheating because I pile shuffled before a limited match. My opponent raised all kinds of hell and claimed I was mana weaving. After trying to explain that face down pile shuffling isn't even close to mana weaving AND that 1 was permitted in the rules prior to a match, he still wouldn't stop raising hell. Judge ruled in my favor. LGS owner told him to calm down and that the judge already ruled. Guy still wanted to throw a tantrum. I ended up winning 2-1. the rest of the night claims I cheated lol.... Never saw him again after that night tho.

[@Abc-tx4zr]

if you cant affect the top of the library and he cant just put the card he drew back on top of the library why does it matter?

[@panzergaming9108]

with out context this seems like the most dramatic and helpful debate, also when he starts telling the judges how to act was weird then realized the caption for the video lol

[@actualjessielive783]

This is such an interesting scenario, both players seemed to intentionally forget the trigger, one to not lose his card in hand, the other to hope to get 2 cards in hand. Since he paused in the upkeep and looked across, he seems to intentionally not discarded, but as he drew and you called the judge, he seems to have “missed it” then remembered on purpose, especially since he reminded him the last 2 turns. Honestly, both players seemed to have intent, and tried to gain an advantage, one by having the trigger not resolve, one by having it resolve at a later time. So me being a level 0 judge, I have NO IDEA what to do here because you can’t really correct the game state, and one way a player gains the advantage. I probably wouldn’t put it on the stack, I’m about to see what they say. I’m at 23:00

[@frago321]

I didn't get the last part. How did the situation finish? As far as I got it was like both players knew about the trigger and they both intencionally let it slip to catch the other. The rules state that the controller is responsable for such, and not the owner. But "random discard all but 1 card" was still giving the chance to keep the best card to the player on the right. Go back, was not an option as no one could be sure witch card the player draw. and restart the game seems not only really long, but also could reset way too many mistakes on decitions (not rules) Lastly, making him lose the game for that seems too much. So, what actually happend? I get you did it for the video, to just show the rule, but what was going to be the decision otherwise?

[@beingofstrange]

great comment, i believe they both arent winning until the judges solve it even if its 3 days later

[@TomMurphy-gy4dm]

Simply put, the guy on the left has no responsibility to remind his opponent how to play the game. The guy on the right cheated. He did not know he was cheating, but it was underhanded by design, and outside the scope of legitimate uses of deception. It is his fault alone that the game state is unrecoverable. Game loss, lesson learned. Don't do it again.

[@getatme554]

I have never played nor will I probably ever play but I still found this video fascinating and love to learn about peoples hobby’s

[@TheLucluchtloper]

Not only is it a detrimental missed trigger. After the guy started explaining why he missed the trigger it only exposed mote evidence that he missed the trigger on purpose. Giving him an option of winning. That’s a automatic game loss and a warning if i’ve ever seen one

[@NoBody-ro3xj]

All I heard was Guy on right: I looked at him said upkeep acknowledging the trigger without saying it, he said nothing so I ignored it and moved on. I'm not judge by any means but he controls the card and intentionally skips a trigger... offer to discard hand (discarding drawn card and previous in hand card) and draw a card or trigger goes on stack and discard your whole hand without drawing..... if neither are chosen then you are conceding.

[@Terrantular]

Is having him dump an extra card and still draw an option a judge would consider? I would sooner have him reshuffle his hand, draw 1, and effectively revert the gamestate, which they said was not a possible course.

[@NoBody-ro3xj]

@@Terrantular I dont see why you can reverse.

[@morningorangejuice]

I am late to the party, but if they ever do this in the future, PLEASE find a way to do it in MUCH less noisy environment.

[@johnnycaralta]

Its the controller's trigger, not the owner's. He missed the trigger and drew. If the discard hand is the only option, he has to discard both cards. It's not that difficult.

[@potterj09]

No idea in the slightest what is going on but I admire the professionalism.

[@iurirosa3155]

(Haven't finished the video) Player 2 has one card in hand. Captive Audience is making you discard your hand as it is the only trigger left and player 2 forgot that trigger. Would it be a bad decision let your opponent pick which card you're keeping since: - You would have drawn that card either way - It turns into a 50/50 situation - Player 2 would receive a warning for a detrimental missed trigger ? I know player 2 could have lethal on hand and Captive Audience would have made him discard that card. But now that he has 2 cards in hand and we don't know which one is which, I thought this would be the fairest way to solve this without giving game loss.

[@iurirosa3155]

Now that I watched the whole thing and it would come all down to the intention of each player, I would like to know if the solution I presented would have been applicable and/or fair in a competitive environment

[@googleplusisterrible4837]

Have you done a missed Tabernacle trigger? Missing the trigger during an opponents turn who does not own the Tabernacle. Waiting for player to cast spells and tap and then mentioning the trigger.

[@justinkarnes3276]

If you’re in the feature match, play correct magic or suffer. Missed Trigger. If the game cannot correctly determine what card was drawn and the intent was to dodge the discard, Game Loss

[@DivusMagus]

Yea the right player's description is weird, he says he calls upkeep and then looks at him, then draws. How is the left player supposed to know he isn't thinking before resolving captive audience. he could be thinking of he wants to put an instant in his hand onto the stack. But he goes and draws a card knowingly missing the timing. The left player shouldn't have to remind you have 5 seconds about a card if you are thinking during your upkeep unless its a card they control in which case they just say it goes on the stack.

[@imaloony8]

Yeah, very clearly whoever is in CONTROL of the card is responsible for the trigger. It's the same as if you steal a card with a detrimental effect. It doesn't make sense that your opponent now has to remind you of that effect every time it happens.

[@Lemon-gf9td]

So there's no penalty for the NAP angle shooting? Would't we want to discouraged that behavior?

[@rodennis418]

Not sure how this popped up 5 years later but really cool view into judge training!

[@eDDyL666]

1/25/2019 Once Captive Audience is controlled by your opponent, its ability triggers during that player's upkeep and that player makes all choices for it. That player is affected by its first two modes, and that player's opponents create the tokens for its last mode.

[@mi.Dalton]

Weird I would said “ ah shit we forgot that trigger, you alright if I just pick now? I can reshuffle my draw if you want.”

[@magusofthebargain]

Thankfully, we have changed the ruling on backing up for missed triggers: "If the player is in the process of, or has just completed, an action that indicates the trigger has been missed, and completing that action would change the effect of the trigger, a simple backup may be performed on that action." So although it used to be true that you can't back up an action, this is no longer the case.

[@TomMurphy-gy4dm]

That means every time you have a detrimental effect during your upkeep, the correct play is to ignore it and draw your card for the turn. If your opponent notices, you have knowledge of your draw to help you decide, if applicable. If he does not notice, you simply get away with it. So, the rules have made cheating the optimal play.

[@travisbillmyre9718]

So Player A (On the left) played Captive Audience on Player B (On the right). Player B went through 2 upkeeps (Gave Player A Zombies and Changed his life total to 4) but then "Forgot" the last trigger, is bad sportmanship on Player B. It is not Player A responsibility to point out the triggers of their Player B even if they own the card but the opponent Controls the card. Period. It is Players B responsible to know and understand what their triggers are, even if said triggers are cards that opponent owns but they control. He obviously knew the trigger was there but knowingly disregarded because his opponent didnt "Remind" him about the 3rd trigger.

[@travisbillmyre9718]

I do agree with both Players that the judge did fumble this a bit. Judge should of come over and identified the problem. *PROBLEM - Player B missed his Trigger at upkeep. Okay next step is Why. Ask Player B - Did you know this was on going on the stack. Player B well yes I looked at Player A waiting for him to make a remark about the Trigger like he did the first 2 times, but he didn't so I assumed to go on with my turn. Then ask Player A why he didn't say something if he did the first 2 times, "Well it isn't really my responsibility to remind him of his triggers". Id confer with judges then and given Player B a loss because you can't go back to missed triggers and only the Player B knew what he had in his hand. Was Player A being Scummy? Yes absolutely, but if Player B knew of the trigger and admitted it and chose to disregard it. And because no one but Player B knew what was in hand the game wouldn't be able to continue.

[@DylanWashko]

Dude on the left looks like he is scheming.

[@VydeoGramesJunk]

It's true that you don't have to remind your opponent about their triggers, but it's also true that mandatory triggers are both the players responsibility to bring up since if they don't it would actually make the game enter an illegal state. This was a clear case of cheating in my opinion.

[@themarvelousblackcanary8362]

So the guy asking the life total was suspect and weird because its like he was using that to make the guy seem bullshit?

[@Vallinen92]

I dont get it, guy tried to skip a part of his upkeep that triggers on his side of the board? Either a cheating attempt or just mindless play, just do the trigger and go?

[@ThorGuitarCovers]

JFC maybe next time you can add a static effect to the audio and make it even more difficult to hear, im straining to make out words with my ear against my phone speaker.

[@jdwylde7]

After you Consult a higher official and they make a ruling…that should end it. Being timid about what ruling you just made in the face of an argument is not a good quality for a judge. It’s the controllers job to remember something like that. Especially when it’s already been 3 turns. If this were the case, I would distract my opponent every time and just try to sneak past it. “It’s going against you because it’s your job to remember your triggers on your turn while you’re the controller. Mistakes happen, but whether that’s your card or not..this is my ruling. Controlling player is responsible for what a card does to him. Good or bad.” End of story.

[@IBeScrappyDoo2]

In tournament play, when permanent spells are cast that enchant opponents, it would be wise to let the opponents know that they are responsible for remembering their own triggers !! That way it will hinder any kind of table-turning excuse they can try and come up with !!

[@lycan3422]

It's says on the card at the beginning of your upkeep he missed his trigger

[@MrDavidmauck]

Him admitting that he paused at his upkeep and looked at his opponent. That means he knew there was a trigger and was seeing if his opponent caught it. This is not a may trigger, so admitting you knew it and passed it cause your opponent did not say anything is in fact cheating.