Rumination Analysis on Thief: The Dark Project

[@thexalon]

Garrett doesn't get involved in the plot due to fears about the end of the world. He gets involved in the plot for a lot of money, followed by revenge against the people who plucked out his eye. Completely anti-hero motivations right there.

[@jasonq7504]

Thief is by far my favorite game series. Brilliant storytelling. ...but the game designers did one thing that was genius. They gave away the level editors. This created a complete culture of game designers, who made such high quality missions, they surpassed even what the original designers could have imagined. There was a large community around these endless stories and we now had access to carte Blanche storytelling.

[@Dj.MODÆO]

Fun Fact: the same voice actor, Stephen Russell voiced Garrett in Thief 1-3 and Corvo Attana in Dishonored 1 and 2. Proving once again that Dishonored is the true spiritual successor to the original Thief series.

[@gh05tnoh24]

William Brinkley attano* sry

[@AkosKovacs.Author.Musician]

@@Dj.MODÆO That's the stupidest reasoning, I've ever heard.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

I'm still amazed so few stealth games have copied Thief's idea of differently sounding surfaces.

[@rhinoman8586]

ocarina of time had it b4 theif

[@AydarBMSTU]

@@rhinoman8586 is ocarina of time a stealth game?

[@pyramidhead3109]

@@AydarBMSTU ye

[@teddyharvester]

Splinter Cell does that, but then it also does that crouch and walk as slow as possible to sneak thing that almost makes surfaces irrelevant, because even if you're in absolute darkness and walk slowly standing up, someone's gonna hear. Well, until they implemented background noise levels that mask your own sound in Chaos Theory.

[@artinhjollder4779]

As a Thief cultist, I found this the most profound and unbiased analysis ever been made on the subject. I'm even curious about your general and in-depth opinion for Thief (2014) ...

[@jaz5649]

as a thief cultist, i completely disagree

[@HenkkaArtGames]

jaz, I have to agree. The video maker lost me when he said that Dishonored is the modern Thief, that they are practically 1 to 1. All I can think is: did he even play the games? It's more like Dishonored wants to be the modern Thief and sort of fell into to slot because the latest Thief dropped the ball completely. But still, it doesn't mean that Dishonored is in any way what Thief was.

[@terriblycharismaticduck2717]

RomeroFanboy lol

[@mariocardabollo3631]

Ay Manolo, Manolo, el hombre que torea solo... ante el peligro.

[@rogueninja185]

@RomeroFanboy WHAT A FRUSTRATED PIECE OF SHIT YOU ARE

[@Bloodsaber64]

IMO the best thing about thief was its immersion into lore, with the kind of "halo flood discovery" feeling when you realize there is more going on in the game than just being a thief. They captured it somewhat in thief 3 with the witch (and especially the terrifying journey through the madhouse, ugh), but nothing I have played since ever came close to the wonder and awe I felt at progressing through the story and discovering the trickster's realms and the ancient buried cities. It made you become an adventurer and tomb raider as much as a thief.

[@CybeargPlays]

If you did your reviews inside instead of out in the snow, you wouldn't have to wear those gloves!

[@misomiso8228]

Disagree with you that Dishonoured is the modern thief. They have a lot of similarities yes, BUT in Thief you meant to be stealthy where as in dishonoured you have a lot of combat, AND the Hero is very different. Garret is a cynical relectant Hero, where as Corvo is man facing injustice as he has been framed. This completely changes the feeling of the game and one of the reasons why Garett is such a unique and great hero. But i get what you're saying yes.

[@MisterAAnderson]

The thing is that Thief 2 and Dishonored are both steampunk while Thief The Dark Project is more about occult, pagan, mythology themes. Changes the shift radically for me and a couple of other people who prefer Thief The Dark Project and Thief Deadly Shadows.

[@Kevin-zv6ds]

Also Corvo literally doesn't have a character given he's silent, where as Garret has characteristics that make him unique

[@Dj.MODÆO]

Kevin Corvo does speak during cut scenes, and believe it or not, Stephen Russell voices both characters, Garrett and Corvo.

[@trblemayker5157]

Wrong. You can finish Dishonored stealthily without killing anyone.

[@gamophyte]

9:15 if I recall correctly, when doing a voice set for a Thief2 fan mission, there's like, 6 levels of alertness. Really set this game apart from all else.

[@Torgo1969]

With the bottom level being Drunk Benny level!

[@Torgo1969]

Thief TDP was the first game I played back in 1999, and it's a miracle I was able to stay in school and graduate on time!

[@darkentity1000]

I wouldn't say that the Hammers are shown to be better in the first game, I think they just aren't the main threat at the time. I really love all the hammer texts, and the cutscene quotes, they give you an insight into the doctrine of the Hammerites. While their contributions are what lead to the creation of The City, they are still a totalitarian regime bent on domination, and anyone who opposes their holy doctrine is subject to brutal punishment. It's the classic decision, would you prefer freedom or security? I would personally choose freedom, but either choice is equally valid, and really depends on you own values. Thief is brilliant because it paints both of these ideas in as neutral a light as possible, meaning that both sides are as good as they are bad.

[@RevolutionNo1]

Dishonored is a power fantasy, Thief is a stealth game. Although some of the same people were involved, there really is little comparison. One focuses on being a powerhouse, the other focuses on being vulnerable.

[@Snake_0_]

Really excellent commentary on my favourite game series. I’m always so impressed when I come across someone who truly understands and appreciates the brilliantness of Thief, from the level design to the gameplay and the story. You made two observations which I’ve always noted myself - Garrett is largely apathetic and unflappable and regularly enters dangerous settings and situations without ever showing any fear or trepidation but we do see one glimpse of terror from Garrett during that cutscene with Viktoria and the Trickster. It is so subtle on the part of the writers and animators but it is very effective in conveying to us the magnitude of the situation if even Garrett is afraid. The other observation relates to the factions and the way that the game does not really present “good guys” or “bad guys”. Each faction has its own beliefs and acts according to that belief system only. This creates both positive and negative externalities. There is a kind of complex dynamic going on between the various sides in Thief 1, with the Hammerites initially presented as antagonists to Garrett, first being encountered in Cragscleft and being responsible for Cutty’s death. But as the plot unfolds and we learn the true nature of Constantine and Viktoria, both Garrett and the Hammerites have a common enemy and it forces us to perhaps change our initial impression of the Hammerites. Ultimately, self-interest and self-preservation unites Garrett and the Hammerites, albeit temporarily, in saving the City. I almost view each game in the trilogy as an example of a faction going to the extremes and finding itself becoming the antagonist, in Thief 1 it is the pagans, in Thief 2 it is the Mechanists (which it can be argued are an extremist version of the Hammerites) and in Thief 3 it is the Keepers.

[@sugarysnax2958]

No mention of Mark of the Ninja, which was a pretty good stealth game. It was 2d and relied a lot on moves. Think of all the horrible stealth in gaming like thieving in Morrowind. It was so bad. Sniper elite 2 had horrible stealth. I remember in an early mission trying to creep past guards in broad daylight fifteen feet away and eventually succeeding. Laughable stealth. People complained that the combat was too hard. I remember when I "discovered" the black jack which could easily knock out a guard with one blow if he was hit from behind and not on alert. Great weapon. No scream, no blood. Drag him off and throw him in a shadow and the other guards would often walk right over him. The bow was the best bow in gaming. You could feel it getting tighter. You could aim it precisely and fire while leaning various warheads. The sploosh of a water arrow on a torch. Nobody else would hear it or notice the light being put out until they walked right up to it and maybe relit it and they'd always say something like, "That's funny. Keeps blowing out, but there's no wind." and "what's that smell?" if you were hiding nearby. I felt like I lived in that world. These days developers like to give you dozens of tools or even hundreds of tools and most of them are useless or very similar. You never get great gadgets like a master thief might have made for himself over many years. Running away. Garrett could always outrun the guards. He must have been very light, close to starving. Shoot an arrow into a beam to climb up to the third floor of a castle and then stick to the walls on a ledge to creep into an open window. Get discovered and run down a walkway. You'd have known to always keep an escape route in mind. Run down a handrail and jump over the cobblestones into a canal. Swim underwater up a pipe and find a way in through the sewers. You find some locked doors and no key. Eventually, you'd get back to where you were and there were probably two other ways to get in. Every time you ran from the guards you'd get that thrilling feeling up your spine as though you were really running from certain death. You could open doors just a crack or roll them open with the mouse wheel in tiny increments. you could drop a flash bomb in there quietly and close the door so that everybody inside was blinded and blackjackable even from the front for a few seconds. Instead of learning to click a button that would do a series of moves you had to practice a series of moves so that things would happen quickly and maybe you'd even have to improvise and run away or drop another flash bomb. Does any game these days offer that kind of planning? Its like for thief they said to themselves, "What would he have to do in order to accomplish this or that" and then they gave you a bunch of things you could do so that you could do that. Its so obvious. Now its like well, what's his skill level at stealth or you need to go back to the store and buy this or that.

[@Threesixtyci]

The zombies in this game used to freak me out.....

[@hyruleflower5695]

It would be cool if the background was gameplay or something

[@Supergrunt8]

I love thief, imagine my surprise when I saw this on my subscription feed.

[@puddel9079]

The best part of Thief's story is that the details regarding Garret's backstory are shown in such an innocuous fashion. "Keepers never alter the truth, they just hide it in the shadows." What better shadows to hide it than in plain sight?

[@freebatman4everyone]

Love these ruminations! I have never played Thief 1 due to severe arachnophobia. Right off the bat, under Baffort Manor, I saw one and immediately quit. This is one of the most beautiful games ever and it pains me endlessly that I cannot play it.

[@psztyla]

I'm arachnophobic too. And, Yeah, those spiders were pretty scary. One of the scariests I've ever met in video games. However they didn't stop me from playing and finishing Thief 1 mutiple times. I always nervously quick-saved, killed all of them from distance (saved best arrows for that purpose), and if one of them started approaching me, and I wasn't at safe hideout I imediatly go to menu and load. :D The worst thing is some spiders sounds are actually part of the soundtrack, which I found out while listeninig it on YT years after... I always was in tense state in levels with spiders because of these sounds, even if I killed them all. I think nowadays I'm more brave that I used to be and I could go on them with sword, but attack from suprise of course as a thief. I wish you to overcome your fears and experience this amazing game!

[@paradoxinraindrops141]

Accomplishment of No Kill Mercy runs stem from the catharsis of besting a broken stealth system. The loud/stealth dichotomy itself speaks to a misunderstanding of Thief: where Garret's sword was a means of self-defense, Corvo's life's mastery was his artful command of swordsmanship that made it possible for him to climb the ladder and become Royal Protector.

[@hyron4dead325]

This taffer knows a lot, and i can say that i agree with the most of his words, great video

[@skaruts]

Your opinions on things overlap a lot, if not completely, with mine. One thing that could be said about the story though (I think it was said by Dom Giuca in what is imo a great video he made (kzbin.info/www/bejne/oIHUqHd9jd1_nrc)) is that it was mostly not really told in any traditional way (probably because the nature of the game didn't allow it in the first place, although Garrett tells some of it in the cutscenes, I think), but "casually" or "indirectly" through the world itself, through the happenstances, through seemingly random dialogues, through documents and letters from sleeping lords and servants, etc. You play the whole game in mostly desolate environments, yet you get a feeling that you're actually sneaking past a crowd in a lush world, rich with activity, intrigue, and all sorts of ideologies, events and places. Simply brilliant in my opinion. Limitations do force people to be creative, and you're also spot on in that regard.

[@skaruts]

Oh and by the way, I think thief has probably the best view-bobbing ever made. :)

[@KedViper]

Ooh, your 'spike theory' fits perfectly in line with what I was noticing about Diablo-styled games. Diablo II came out which was obviously extremely innovative (anybody enjoy skill trees?) and then you had games coming out in it's wake such as Dungeon Siege and Titan Quest which used Diablo II's blueprint, but added new features which it did not posses (parties and multiclassing respectively). But, years went by and we saw less innovation and more 'bullet-point' games which caused the interest in the genre to die down. Now we have new games like Grim Dawn and Path of Exile, which do innovate, but I feel are more in the mindset of "Let's bring back the _real_ Diablo." rather than trying to push the envelope. It's like this with any inert genre. People get to wanting a throwback game and that's what they get, because the developers don't feel the need to stand out when compared to the old games since bringing back the formula is enough of an excuse to make these throwback products. I'm more interested in seeing where they can go with these genres rather than just essentially remaking old games.

[@bboy32167]

Playing through thief i thought the hammerites were the "good guys" and you were the villan, this theory doesnt really hold up in the sequels but i remember thinking it at the time

[@doomfan12345]

Great video. I saw this in my recommendations and, with any thing that comes up in recommendation pretty often, I tend to hesitate. Thankfully, you seem to show great promise. Also, what happened to your beard man? Lol

[@s2korpionic]

Cutscenes can be disruptive and excessive though. Just look at most AAA cutscenes and how they interrupt gameplay flow. Even worse is the excessive focus of NPC faces and how every cutscene just loves to zoom in on every one of them.

[@BeforeTheNoose]

I love listening to you talk about this, but i don't agree on this one. Dishonoured wishes it was the modern thief. It's nothing like it imo. Watch Razorfists video on it. Thief creates something few games do and that is make you feel scared/vulnerable, if you're found in thief you're fucked unless you can get away, but fighting hand to had you're very weak; its also deeply unsatisfying and clunky. Dishonoured is just another power fantasy like so many modern games, the atmosphere coupled with a myriad of tools and tricks at your disposal, for me ,made it feel like you're powerful and in total control. Thief's level design is better, story telling, lore, and atmosphere too.

[@bboy32167]

Guessing your trilogy is thief, halflife, and deus ex Pausing to see but i know im right cause what else would they be

[@SperryACHI]

Progressivism vs. traditionalism (or even primitivism)? Calculated civilisation vs. unrestrained natural impulses? Great commentary. I'd love to hear more about Thief :-)

[@skaruts]

Just found out your channel, and I'm enjoying you commentary a lot. I wonder, since you mentioned fallout, have you ever considered speaking about Arcanum? (Made by the fallout team, I think). It also hasn't aged too well, but a little better than fallout. I found it an amazing game though, in many aspects. Maybe even quite underrated.

[@Lorerunner]

I tried going back to play Arcanum a few years ago, had issues. I remember it quite fondly though, they did some things very very right with that game.

[@skaruts]

I found the depth and attention to detail, both graphically and in terms of mechanics and dialogues, quite surprising. I know nothing about the game's background, but I suspect it was probably another one of those games made out of genuine deep passion.

[@xcxc7167]

too bad arcanum has some technical issues, otherwise it could be amazing. but when a game completely bugs out during the first real battle it weakens the experience. i actually stopped playing at that point but maybe and hopefully i'll go back to it some day. but i dont understand why people say fallout hasnt aged well though, to me and many of my friends who still play fallout 1 and 2 regularly they still have great graphics, sounds and game mechanics

[@SacrumImperiumRomanum517]

Dishonoured comparison is incorrect imo. Dishonoured makes you feel empowered and i never really felt i was out matched or anything. Thief you're essentially fucked if you're caught. The lore, level design and atmosphere in thief is far superior too.

[@HyronIbnLaAhad]

24:35 THIS

[@mitchelldunn9149]

Oh here we go!

[@Aranneas]

no mention of the impact/innovation of System Shock? as usual a great video tho

[@WoundedKite]

I assumed that the trinity would be System Shock 2, Thief and Deus Ex tbh, at least after he lead-in by talking about Half Life in a way that suggested it wouldn't be part of it. System Shock 2 and the two Thiefs (Thieves? :) ) are just astonishingly rich games that were massively different to everything that came before them. Looking Glass had the most incredible creative staff in the late nineties, these three games (and Deus Ex and Half-Life) are masterpieces.

[@turricanedtc3764]

Thief is an evolution of the original System Shock though. Looking Glass's "secret sauce" was being way ahead of the curve when it came to emergent gameplay - in the sense that they designed a believable environment, put the player inside it and gave them a task to do - how the player went about doing so was up to them. Half-Life was a brilliant game in its own right, however unlike the LGS titles it was very much a tightly-scripted interactive story - and for better or worse it ended up as the blueprint for what became the "AAA" design pattern.

[@TheJayson8899]

Dishonored modern Thief? No arguing? Uh huh. The Rageaholic and I would like a word with you... Quit watching by then.

[@ryank.8020]

Mr. Mojo Risin' i agree. Dishonored is not like thief really at all

[@Mrityugata]

Another channel!? Ah, that explains the No Rogue One Discussion Mystery :)

[@AkosKovacs.Author.Musician]

It's kinda funny how you say Dishonoured is modern Thief, whilst listing the very flaws of Dishonoured that makes it not Thief.

[@NYKensington]

Less than two bucks on Steam? Oy, vey! I guess I'll be adding one more to the backlog!

[@TheJayson8899]

Yeah, no, Dishonored is modern Deus Ex with a different setting. There is arguing that.

[@Dj.MODÆO]

Trixmay 988 want more proof that Dishonored is the spiritual successor to Theif?? Stephen Russell did the voice acting for both characters, Garrett and Corvo.

[@innoclarke7435]

@@Dj.MODÆO Okay? And Terri Brosius voiced the witches, as well as Thief's Victoria. What's your point? This is a great example of what happened with Dishonored. Harvey Smith repeated ad nauseum, "Dishonored is the spiritual successor to Thief!" and, despite there being very little design-wise to compare the two, people actually fuckin' fell for it. It's astonishing. Then they hire Stephen Russell and grab Terri Brosius and people are more convinced than ever. "DID YOU HEAR GARRETT, IT'S BASICALLY THIEF." "HARVEY SMITH SAID IT'S NEW THIEF, SO THAT MEANS IT'S NEW THIEF." You know what other game was supposedly Thief? Thief. The 2014 one. And the ridiculous thing about Thief 2014 is that, for all the shit launched at it, it's funnily enough a much better stealth game and, therefore, a better Thief game. Mind you, that's not inherently saying much, being a better Thief game than Dishonored takes no effort whatsoever. In fact, Arkane had already made a better Thief game. It's called Dark Messiah of Might & Magic. Yeah, the focus of that game was on combat, but you COULD play it stealthily, and the stealth systems in that game are better than what Dishonored has. The frustrating part about it all is that Dishonored *COULD* have been the new Thief. Arx Fatalis *is* the successor to Ultima Underworld and Prey *is* the very clear successor to System Shock 2. It's uncanny how much Prey manages to evoke System Shock 2, in fact. They could've done the same with Dishonored, they could've really bolstered Thief's legacy, but they didn't. Instead, as Anglo-Saxophone correctly points out, it's a successor to *Deus Ex*. That so many people could believe Harvey Smith's words as opposed to the very, VERY obvious design inclinations of Dishonored amazes me to no end.

[@MisterAAnderson]

Your example of difference between repetition (grind) and practicing is kinda not quite good. Take a look at the antisocialfatman's reviews on Half Life (he is now RIP). Basically everything is a grind and a repetition and a recycle of old gameplay - that was a spoiler.

[@Plutonia001]

I don't agree. Half-Life isn't grind and repetition. Half-Life's design revolves around the steady introduction of new aspects and letting the player get used to them. When you master a weapon, you run into a new enemy type and have to adapt. Then you find a new weapon, but you run into a new environmental hazard. Then suddenly they throw you a curveball and take away your weapons. You need to re-adapt using what you know. Once you reacquire your stuff, you need to brave vertigo and sudden death, and eventually that is combined with overwhelming enemy presence. And just as you think it couldn't possibly become different, the entire world around you changes and you need to learn an entirety different type of movement, while using everything you've learned previously, and everything henceforth is a preparation for the final boss. There is one thing about the game that is repetition. The multiplayer.

[@MisterAAnderson]

You can argue that case too. But in the end it's just a more complex variety of grind. A grind that we enjoy. But essentially it's the same Quake tactic of running around the room to avoid getting shot, exploded by some barrel with explosives and jump around various platforming set pieces. This is mostly evident in Xen where repetition is more obvious. You encounter some of the same enemies. Even more, Half Life is a glorified version of Doom as antisocialfatman mentioned. It's story is, the presentation and storytelling evolved - sure. But essentially right now looking back at it, it's nothing to write home about. The reason the grind is not obvious is because the storytelling is so good we don't notice. We do notice the grind in Half Life 2's episodes. Specifically I mean Episode 1's requirement to escape the city and when the game throws 15+ enemies at you and Episode 2 when you go through the cave. Bad design highlights gameplay weaknesses of structural leaks - short and not quite satisfying combat. Something that you can't say of FEAR for example. In general my tendency and bias against HL I won't hide. It was not nice of Valve to leave us on a cliffhanger for 10 years. This says something about their customer service in a way, with all due respect for their work. I hate cliffhangers. It's not normal.

[@dappermagehats9730]

Dishonored is a fucking action game with crappy stealth. Thief is a masterfully crafted audio-scape of horror and grunge goodness. The fact that you compare the two astounds me. Dishonored is barely even a fucking stealth game. EDIT: That aside, rest of the video is alright. Just discovered ya, so I'm gonna watch more to see.

[@neeyotube]

A 40 minute video with zero seconds of footage from the game? Talk about low effort.

[@terriblycharismaticduck2717]

They’re not both steampunk. Dishonoured is whalepunk, and Thief is a mix of steampunk and clockpunk.

[@SaiNarayan_]

First? Also new rumination! Yay!