Did German Devs FAKE their Pokémon Snap Scores?

[@JebAlert]

I feel like the main thing these 3 scores have in common is dealing with occlusion. The Pikachu and Snorlax scores can be explained by an earlier build of the game calculating the score of an object blocked by another object differently (e.g. not having a size penalty for objects behind another). This would explain how they got the higher scoring flying pikachu shot without clipping through articuno and the higher score Snorlax from not having the grass blocking it. The butterfree score would be a bit harder to explain, but going on the previous theory could be possible by having overlapping butterfrees leading to higher scores. Just my initial thoughts after watching the video, i haven't played Snap64 in a hot minute so I could be completely off base.

[@telephonebear21]

This sounds pretty believable. Or if it's only pokemon blocking that's changed, explaining pikachu without a glitch, butterfree, and leaving snorlax for the likely typo theory.

[@ninjasuperman9538]

My guess going into the vid… The high scores were set on a beta build and then due to some minor change the records were altered but never updated

[@MDSF90]

Pretty much.

[@raafmaat]

my first guess is that the records were sloppily written with pen during play, so later when converting to computer it was a bit confusing what records went where, or were just hard to read! but ofcourse a change in the game build is very likely too!

[@jamesknapp64]

I'm in agreement with the Butterfree score explanation. Snorlax could well be a typo of interchanging the 2nd "4" and "0" is also reasonable. and Goose talks about it around 14:00

[@WilfredCthulu]

Least we didn't get anything too crazy like an Ekans score...

[@DeathScyther006]

The fact that the two inconsistent scores were on the same map make it seem likely that the beach course in particular could have been tweaked before the final build.

[@BobSmun]

Note also that, on the English version, Slowpoke is just above Snorlax and _it_ has a 4400 score. So there are 2 possibilities at a typo - either switching the middle two (as mentioned), or reading off the wrong line

[@Maxwell_Twist]

Issue with that is that the German version is in pokedex order, so slowpoke isn't near it. Still though, most likely a typo, since after looking over the german list compared to the Japanese list that it is supposedly from, there are a few scores that are different.

[@cdizzle]

You really think Smetbo and Relaxo would just do that? Go on ancient texts and tell lies?

[@r0bz0rly]

i think those are the pokemon names lmao

[@tommylucatiel7911]

all relaxo know is mcdonald’s , charge they phone, twerk, be bisexual , eat hot chip & lie

[@craftersshaft]

​@@r0bz0rly exactly, snorlax and butterfree fiddled with the yearbook

[@loder8592]

@@r0bz0rly The German Pokemon names are lit.

[@wario1226]

The last few months I've been grinding out as many tied WRs as possible; I had no idea that my 4700 Gyarados put me in a top 25. It took hours, but I assumed since it was a proven maximum more people would've done it. I'm even more proud of it now :P

[@sproins]

I always loved Snorlax's German name, Relaxo is so fitting.

[@Novakians]

I mean, so is snorlax

[@renakunisaki]

Several possible explanations: - there were multiple people doing it, some just assumed and some didn't - typos - scores were based on older versions - most scores were calculated, but for the ones where they knew a perfect size was impossible, they did those manually, and overlooked Snorlax - scores were read from some debug tool showing a realtime score that didn't account for the viewfinder changing the possible size This is pure speculation, but if I made this game, I'd have added a debug readout which, on every frame, tells what the scores/subjects/etc would be for a photo taken on that frame. Testers then might have used that to determine the highest possible score, not realizing it might require the player to be in an impossible position because the FOV/letterbox changes when you actually hold up the camera.

[@Snooplax]

I think the theory that it was a different build of the game would make a lot of sense. I think this theory could also be confirmed/disproved also. If someone that has great knowledge of pokemon snap looked at all the pictures in the strategy guide to see if there is any differences to confirm if it is the final build or not. All it would take is one different texture or small change to prove it is a different build the guide uses.

[@beardalaxy]

Could try matching up the photos in the guide to a TAS and see if the scores are the same.

[@shockthetoast]

There's also a possibility that the score discrepancies were due to a late, minor bug fix, in which case there might be no visible differences. It could also be that the high scores and photos were taken from different builds. Which could mean that it may not be possible to know for certain either way.

[@Jason48344]

Probably the only KZbinr that can release home security footage of the grass growing in their front yard and commentate on it in such a way that makes the video irrevocably captivating. Never played Pokemon Snap, nor have any interest to play it. However, I walk away from these videos thinking that the trivial knowledge I've just gained is going to be part of the grandest answer to the greatest question in the afterlife.

[@MrDrBoi]

Amazing comment, I feel the same way LOL

[@algar6616]

good man

[@forbiddensilhouette5824]

O_o

[@bobbobby1624]

there is also the very plausible idea that the cart they were beta testing on when writing the official guides had slightly more lenient scoring or had the Pokemon positions or routes slightly altered prior to the final build resulting in all scores being slightly higher than would otherwise be the case on the retail build, but most of them still being technically possible via grinding on the retail build with the exception of snorlax

[@Vidar93]

Thats my guess as well, especially with butterfree and snorlax being on the first level level of the game. I know not all games are made in chronological order but I could very much see them either slightly changing their position or the landscape geometry and casually recording the scores during development and publishing a different version than the beta build used.

[@kalzium8857]

I think the snorlax one is most likely a typo. I think one could look if they are more spelling mistakes. Furthermore i think that the dev build of the game had different features. Testers don't play the whole level to test one new feature. Maybe they could move "backwards" or slow down the time to make these records.

[@dechangeman]

Really enjoyed to hear you say a word in my native language :D „Spieleberater“

[@wolfen888]

Sounds drunk af 😂

[@chaosPudding123]

1 Monat nur Pokemon Snap zocken als nächstes Video. Ich habe gehört er soll vor Kopfscherzen und Insomnia schützen und dabei einen fit halten und beim abnehmen helfen ;)

[@CSHummer]

You calling the 90's last century is technically correct but why you gotta do me like that

[@TomSFox]

Why not say “last millennium,” though?

[@ericbarr734]

Some kid said I was born in "the late 1900s" and I about slapped him. Couldn't get up fast enough though, damn whippersnappers.

[@Tukaro]

"The original Pokemon Snap, released within the last 400 years..."

[@Eagle_SFM]

It's getting petty far away now

[@joemck85]

I've also encountered "late 1900s", which is again technically correct but makes the 90s sound old af.

[@FREN12345]

Just to add, on that page in the German guide, it's written that those are highscores achieved 'by the devs in Japan'. 02:00 Not sure what to make of it though. Edit: It also says towards the end that a player should play 'more than perfectly' to achieve them. Maybe they were being cheeky knowing that some scores were a bluff?

[@Faselbob]

Technically it only says that for the second list. But then again the entire page is titled programmer high scores and I would assume Nintendo didn't even have German devs to set those scores.

[@Agarillobob]

I do believe in the snorlax typo and the butterfree 3 close on screen due to very unlikely random chance

[@The_Nametag]

There is another theory. The guides are written based on late development builds. Not the final build. Small changes may have altered the possible scores.

[@guri256]

Nintendo probably wants to synchronize the release of their strategy guide with the game, so other companies can’t beat them to market. I don’t know about Nintendo specifically, but I know some software developers back then who were complaining that the manual had to be written weeks before the software was done because publishing took so long. I don’t think what you’re saying is just a theory. I think it’s incredibly likely. I just don’t know if that’s the cause for these scores

[@syre1337]

they 100% didn't proofread these guides that they were pumping out for every single game in the 90s

[@Laprisu]

can somewhat confirm I have a very very old, kinda torn apart, playthrough guide for Red/Blue/Yellow and MY GOD the guide has many many errors when it comes to trainer teams, Pokedex Data and many more things and I'm like... "how can you mess up a guide THAT BAD?!"

[@JK-gm6kk]

The Germans. Didn't proofread. Yeah okay buddy

[@Laprisu]

@@JK-gm6kk A lot of professional workers here forget to doublecheck their work. You can't assume shit based on a not even remotely true stereotype. We are just as flawed as other people/countries.

[@JK-gm6kk]

@@Laprisu almost like I was making a joke

[@Tetra_76]

That's actually a fascinating story. My guess would be that, if the scores are legit, they were playing on a slightly different or modded version of the game. Maybe they were able to stop in the middle of the track whenever they want, so they could more easily take pictures without having to replay the levels. I don't know how the Butterfree AI works, but if they stay in that general area after you get there, and you're not moving, there might be a better pattern to catch (or simply much higher odds of getting that one in a million photo).

[@FizzyMILKRmm]

Why is there no TAS for Pokemon Snap for the max scores?

[@isheamongus811]

Maybe the max is known/obvious.

[@wretchedpkmn]

You're making me want to grind the next Butterfree high score, stop

[@lumensmith9787]

Based on how optimized some of the scores are, I think it's entirely possible that some of the scores were set on versions prior to release that were nearly identical but sported some very minor differences that allowed for some scores to be possible. I think these scores should be trusted since they came straight from the developers and were presumably verified due to the lack of outlandish scores, but I also think it's important to recognize it's possible for the scores to be inaccurate but also not fabricated.

[@fgfhjfhjfbhfghf5771]

I wonder if snorlax is shown in any prerelease footage or screenshots? It would be interesting if something shows that snorlax was slightly further back or had less terrain in front of it

[@vasaline_slime_gaming98]

one of the high scores might be from one of Marc Rützou's German relatives

[@xtrems2]

my two cents is that perhaps the japanese devs used some sort of ddebug mode to place the butterfrees for testing and just assumed those scores to be possible.

[@jamesknapp64]

Totatlly reasonable guess.

[@BagOfMagicFood]

Yeah, I could imagine the Snorlax shot being from a non-final version with different terrain that doesn't obscure it, but it doesn't make sense that multiple players would have an equally easier time fitting in two near-thousand Butterfrees without some serious shenanigans behind the scenes.

[@arabidllama]

My guess: When developing a game, you add debug features that let you skip around in a level, so you don't have to play it at regular speed from the start over and over. I imagine the guide authors were given a build with these features, to make writing the guide faster as well (or, alternatively, the max scores were done directly by the developers). So, these guide scores were probably achieved with free control of the cart's movement, that isn't present in the retail copy.

[@metleon]

Them not putting the max score flying Pikachu picture in the guide makes perfect sense. What you have to do to get the score produces a pretty awful photo outside of the game's scoring system because it doesn't even show Articuno. There other high scores could have had the same problem, though this is less likely.

[@MDSF90]

Wow… Some might say… It just… Keeps… Happening… Thank you, GGF! Idk what we would do without your insight and knowledge.

[@leonfire99]

I'd guess these scores were achieved by different members of the teams. So some are legit but other might just be theoretical max based on different methods of recording max score with different writers.

[@SpellboundWolf]

I learned lots of new stuff today. Thank you so much. :) I remember my cousin had Snap as soon as it came out. I received it & a N64 around 2009. This video is really well made. Keep it up, dude.

[@BrainStormzFTC]

Has anyone done testing to see if there are any differences between NTSC and PAL versions? PAL has a higher vertical resolution (576) than NTSC (480), it's possible that this or other differences affect size bonus scoring, spawn locations, etc.

[@jonas2516]

Came here to ask this. I don't know about Snap, but a lot of those era games have physics and other stuff tied to framerate

[@medom3710]

Nah, it's not a typo. We Germans are simply that good at the game. GERMANY STRONG🍺🔥🍺🔥🍺🔥

[@CycloneFN]

Clearly they used the secret 4th Pokéflute song, both to get the perfect Snorlax size, and a 4-Butterfree lure.

[@ShamanJeeves]

Waking up to new Goose seems like a good omen for the day.

[@jervoskitzin]

My theory is that the beach level was a bit different in an early/beta version. Maybe there were more butterfree, maybe the grass was 'see through' for Snorlax. IDK but seems that way....both funny records came on the beach

[@christopherwoodjr235]

Never played pokemon snap but I love catching your videos and hearing your thoughts on these topics

[@sayonara5699]

How did I never get this on my homepage?KZbin is weird. nice video Mr goose

[@Eternalwarpuppy]

Has anyone tried to achieve that Butterfree score with a TAS?

[@LRXC1]

I live for these Pokemon Snap videos

[@vixenimoon]

Its been a while since i saw anything pokemon snap related. Makes me wanna try my hand again after all these years :) My first thought with the Snorlax one was "is there a chance they got Snorlax while rising to dance?" Since, if memory serves, that may be the one and only time to get its full body in the shot and still be registered as dancing.

[@Azuciea]

very cool, I vote goes towards the german typo and them playing an older version of the game, maybe where the models are slightly smaller or maybe the player position was zoomed out more

[@MrEnte3000]

Any differences between PAL and NTSC that could explain this?

[@ManillaHeep]

I’m guessing the team members didn’t all record scores with the same integrity as those who did Gyarados and Charizard. The Snorlax score person may have assumed 1,000 Size to be possible. It’s a reasonable assumption given Snorlax is a huge Pokémon. Either that, or it was a typographical error or a score ascribed to the wrong Pokémon.

[@hectorlumbagoCringe]

Teach me how to make solid content, this video is so well put together, much love

[@TheFlyingJester]

I would definitely suspect these scores could have been made with a non-release build, as the writers/editors for official strategy guides especially would probably have had prerelease material (possibly more than even a press kit or the like). For flying pikachu especially, I think it's possible that maybe the flying route was different and then the developers adjusted it to avoid clipping with the camera like it takes to get the 8000. Plus, butterfree and snorlax are on the same course, so perhaps the camera route was different in that stage.

[@WilfredCthulu]

Ooo. I like those overhead views of the maps.

[@Reinreith]

This is one of those weird childhood memories. And for context i played on the wii release,bBut i swear i mananged to get a special pic with 2 butterfree above snorlax in like a totem pole pose when using the flute, its one of my most vivid memories of the game, is a weird thought to think, might have to bust the wii out and see what thats all about. Worse comes to worse, get to go through the game again

[@seangunnell9451]

My best score for Mew was 9,990, but I never managed to get that score with Mew ever again no matter how hard I tried.

[@Poisonjam7]

Lmao, Relaxo…that’s the best thing I’ve ever heard. Snorlax shall henceforth be known as Relaxo to me. 🤣

[@julian0496]

What if these scores were taken early in development? Snorlax’ feet aren’t visible here, so maybe they used to be visible in an earlier build, explaining the impossible to reach size.

[@algar6616]

mew, pikachu, snorlax... those are 3 frontrunners for selling merch, would get kids excited to try over and over butterfree tho i do wanna believe, especially considering earlier builds

[@kritorys514]

Hearing "ancient texts" referencing anything about Pokémon Snap probably just gave me my biggest lol of the month. Good stuff.

[@humanbass]

Funny, my mother bought Pokemon Blue during a trip to Germany. When she returned and I finally turned on the game...it was localized to German. I miss my Glumanda (Charmander).

[@nubnub8202]

the amount of dopamine i get seeing a new Pokémon snap vid is YUUUUGE.

[@dahveedperez4987]

I've often wondered if back in the day some of the early press releases/trailers of games, how ever they went down, included premade "perfect" starting points/save states that would leap you into the action regardless of previous progress or not. Something like early release just being a guided demo. These "2nd" hand reporting company came in played a series of levels, and called it a day, or even the release to press was locked down similarly.

[@papabaddad]

For Pikachu, its possible these scores were performed on a beta build of some kind, which could have changed a number of things that could affect the score. My immediate thought is if the performance in that area was initially worse, but some tweaks to the level were made so that it ran smoother. So the german dev did not have to do any weird technique, as the game was already running slow enough to allow for the shot

[@TheUnknownOtaku]

I learned to refuse to believe dev scores for Nintedo. While a lot are possible, or insanely hard, there are always a few wonky that is a "No way". Example: Mario Party 7. "Fun Run" Currently the devs sit higher than the world record. The way for the current world record is moving all the way to the right as fast as possible without turning side to side as much as possible. This allows you to be far enough to avoid all obstacles (excluding some RNG, but you can just jump so it won't break the record) making it where you never stop or slow down. This would mean, the devs found a way to literally move faster than the auto-run movement. Probably clipping through some kind of floor seeing how the map is a giant tower going up and up. Although if they did do that, they probably get a far better score. It's barely above world record. As it sits, there is no way to do what they did.

[@GamerFolklore]

This is a very interesting story that I didn't know about! I will look into Fun Run a little bit. Thanks for sharing!

[@MajoraZ]

Found your channel recently, as a big fan of Snap, it's been such a joy! I do have a question, though: Is there a chat server (such as one that rhymes with ripcord, since KZbin's spam filter doesn't like comments saying it!) or a forum or some other place Pokemon Snap players congregate, either for the original or New Snap? I'm more interested in sharing aeshetically pleasing photos then doing speed or score runs, but I'd join/take anything I could get! I am in one Japanese server mainly focused around New Snap, but I don't think that's what the players you discuss in your videos use 😅!

[@31337flamer]

on the german note it says "these are the original scores of the japanese devs".

[@petrie911]

Has anyone done a compilation/demonstration of all the current best photographs?

[@vileshaft9730]

if their game ran at PAL 50 framerate maybe that had an affect on the score

[@FalseXII]

Keep in mind that Nintendo's dev kits couldn't play back the unfinished build of the game in full fps. Is it possible their camera was delayed, simllar to what top snap players incorporate with lagging the game by shifting left and right, and that they were able to obtain higher scores as a result?

[@spider2MW]

You really did it and made a video about that! 🔥💯 Thank you so much, awesome! 😂👍

[@Denamic]

My money's on it being a typo, but it's also a possibility that the scores were set on an earlier non-release version where Relaxo isn't clipping into the ground or something

[@flazuki5288]

Imagine what would've happened if we Germans were able to play Goldeneye back in the day haha! Great vid as always goose

[@arbiterlane1661]

maybe they had devtools for continuous screen evaluation, or the ability to easily rewind/reposition/manipulate position on the tracks or something so they could easily find very high scores. it's hard to believe that dev employees actually spent the time to grind out the highest scores, especially since the Pokemon Snap development was reportedly so brutal, and I can't imagine guide book writers caring enough.

[@vicenzoandriolo6723]

Maybe in some beta version Snorlax’s body is full revealed in the scenario

[@someoneout-there2165]

Wow this game takes me back. Like most kids back then I got a few of the first Pokemon games but for whatever I just couldn't really get into the franchise. This game is the one exception and I really enjoyed it. If they brought a remastered version of this to Switch I'd gladly pay $60

[@nopenopeington3727]

Germany cant keep getting away with this

[@lpfan4491]

I'd agree with the idea that the large majority of the inconsistencies are simply a playtest error in that they played an early build and didn't re-take them later one. Even a release candidate could have wildly diffrent micro behavior than the final game back in the day, just look at the leaked Ocarina of Time version 0.9(unofficially named). Besides, this made me curious what the diffrences in scorerunning between the versions are, if there are any. At least an NTSC to PAL-diffrence is likely because we all know they barely ever adjusted the sound, let alone the entire game, to go full speed with PAL. Though it is funny that it is not actually clear if the Relaxo score is a typo or from an early build or sth, so it will remain a mystery even if we uncover a build where the perfect 4400 is possible.

[@3gsFreak]

4:17 I forgot Jynx used to be black.

[@tribbergrips1613]

11:49 oh you said it right there, the number of variables needed to achieve a 500 score butterfry pic are improbable BUT NOT impossible. Its possible but not achieved yet.

[@vswed]

Great video. Super informative and well shown

[@Nillew_N64]

Nice :D Butterfree 4960 seems possible, because the third Pokémon has 210 or +220 pts. Over a decade ago I was told stories about a Snorlax 4100 and I waited years to see a 4060. Is possible to get 1000 size points with Snorlax, but the pose is worth 800 or 1000, if I remember well.

[@SirGriefALot]

The strategy guide was probably made before the game came out so they could be released at the same time. The information they used to create the guide might have been from an earlier build that got changed before release.

[@ultralance]

This is a very informative video all around, but my favorite thing I learned from it is that Snorlax is known as *Relaxo* in German.

[@Gota0014]

Maybe there's some way to get the 3rd Butterfree clise as well like tossing a pester ball at it or something

[@martenkahr3365]

I could absolutely see the German devs just calculating the hypothetical best result for Pokemon that they hadn't gotten a good score on yet as the print deadline approached.

[@Mishiina]

Damn i love these videos. So calming

[@GamerFolklore]

That's what I try to go for!

[@jacobjacob8381]

dude this took me back

[@TheKilaby]

oh i actually still have that book. Was a nice read its not written like a strategy guide but more like a diary.

[@rjshadow4321]

I have two ideas 1. it's a simple typo of someone rushing a deadline and accidently flipping two numbers or 2. a lot of times game makers send out unfinished games to reviewers and a minor tweak of making the ground look better changed the position of stuff.

[@FaustoMartense]

I clicked on a whim but the video is interesting. All the info is exposed in a clear and interesting way.

[@mattwazx]

They could have gotten the scores on a previous version of the game where it was possible to get these scores but it is not longer possible in the final released version

[@xa447]

I'm a game dev and here's my theory on how the scores were done. Instead of doing the photos themselves or just putting in the max number, it would make more sense to Instead look at the maps files and calculate based on ideal conditions. This explains pikachu as when checking the raw map data you wouldn't bother to see that normally a bird is covering pikachu. Of course for the scores lower than the WR it's very reasonable to assume they either didn't bother to fully optimize or because the target audience is kids maybe they nocked the points down a bit.

[@Casprizzle]

Lower scores on normal pages makes sense to me, they probably didn't want to post their best scores if they were very hard / a bit glitchy to get like the pikachu, those pages are more meant for normal players.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

The easy way to check is to just throw speedrunners at the german version and see if those scores are possible. Who knows if there is some code difference that causes higher scores in those particular cases.

[@SpiteOSRS]

Is there not a TAS that can confirm this? Why all the x-files questioning?

[@GamerFolklore]

There is no useful emulator for Pokemon Snap.

[@phonotical]

Isn't there code for maximum possible values? All they'd need to do is check those lookup tables

[@Phredreeke]

Makes me wonder of some TASer writing a bot to brute forces the map using different movements

[@youbluethatone1017]

It is well known that old scores in random magazines were impossible to cheat

[@Sauspreme]

unless they we're sharing posting each other's scores, that's 3 people that went absolutely bananas on getting that impossible butterfree!

[@tribbergrips1613]

Snorelax is obscured by the terrain, he is sitting in a polygon "chair"....any shot not dead center will obscure the lower body. So you need all of those variables to line up PLUS a dead center shot as you roll by. Not too soon or late. Every single shot shown in this video was taken before or after dead center., meaning you either haven't passed it yet or passed it already. Take the picture AS YOU PASS so the most of the character is on screen and not blocked by terrain polygons. Try that out.

[@RelicCipher]

I wonder if the 4400 Snorlax score was ever possible in the 64DD beta build? The only footage of it online seems to be from a single recording, and since multiple sources reused it and given how this was not close to a release build I really doubt the score would be a leftover from that. I just think it would be funny if that it was possible in that version. It feels like the 4400 is a typo. The butterfree one, the devs must know something we don't somehow. It has to be real.

[@ianfinrir8724]

I really miss strategy guides.

[@godscalledwayne]

really interesting and unique topic. Great video :D

[@shockthetoast]

If either score is due to a typo or a different build, the next question is how many other scores were "incorrect" but just happened to be within the possible range so we're not questioning them now. 🤔

[@user-sm3pp8tb1y]

My theory is that maybe with the picture of Snorlax you can also get a Butterfree in the picture for some extra points somehow. That's the only explanation in my mind and vice versa somehow get extra points for Butterfree with Snorlax in the background somehow. Why else would they be the only 2 that are different? amirite

[@Lexyvil]

My guess for Snorlax would be it's a typo on the German's scoring sheet, since 4400 is close to 4040, and 4040 is near #1 by the best players.

[@trucid2]

Ma, wake up! Goose uploaded a new video.

[@johnjimmies8256]

Ma! The meatloaf!!!

[@while_coyote]

There's no way any dev back then would spend more than the absolute minimum amount of time on scores for a magazine. They could easily have just been making guesses.

[@Demokirby]

"Some secret Knowledge that only a select few knew deep in some mysterious facility in Berlin last Century" Entire last century?" They were on vacation between 1939 to 1945, so nothing there at least.