Ryan Grim DEBATES ‘Inconvenient Minority’ Author On Diversity In Education

Kenny Xu, president of Color Us United, discusses his new book, "An Inconvenient Minority: The Attack on Asian American Excellence and the Fight for Meritocracy."
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[@iknowzthizvmc8885]

The host is doing exactly what Kenny is saying

[@sekaikiroku304]

Is Ryan being intentionally obtuse? The demographics of the US as a whole are not the issue. Kenny is pointing out that many school districts with underperforming students are not controlled by whites. Also, my guess is that many successful Asian students from countries Kenny mentioned started out their scholastic careers in underperforming schools.

[@Axrover]

That's what he failed to mention because they do. Where was china town located in LA and NY? Near majority black neighborhoods and they went to school together.

[@ocean34560]

what you fail to realize is nobody claims schools or anything are "controlled" by whites, just that the effects of slavery and such still longer in our system which arbitrarily discriminates regardless of those in power. Black people were not allowed to vote in America until 1968, thats not very long ago.

[@brianreilly7139]

Ryan was doing his best kamala impersonation. He thinks if he says enough words he might stumble on something that sounds intelligent.

[@whisper2284]

What they all fail to note is that the 1965 Immigration act stipulated that immigrants should be educated. That's why many of the Chinese, Koreans, Indians and African immigrants came with some education already. They arrived w/a degree from their home country that can't be recognized in the US. Vietnamese were refugees and received government grants/loans and free education. These groups got a leg up. Now, Asians that went to bad schools still have educated parents that advocated for them. Black educated parents do the same for their children. Poor, uneducated parents usually do not.

[@beautyt4850]

@@whisper2284thus fix the school system from early stage not to remove the merit system in university

[@doubtingtom92]

That conversation was embarrassing. I can't believe Grimm fell for the trap of virtue signaling instead of hearing Kenny's actual point. Fix the schools, rather than deflating the grading system. How hard is that to understand?

[@threeofeight197]

I agree, I think they are just arguing over semantics. I think the author doesn't acknowledge systemic racism as a type of racism but instead as just a bad system that affects different races disproportionately. I tend to think that you could probably link poverty to those types of schools more than anything else. No matter what you call it, the focus should be on fixing the problem not defining it. What is the best way to make children more successful? Would it help to raise them out of poverty and encourage a climate where their parents and family would have the time and resources to encourage them? My dad taught in some of the roughest schools and the problem isn't just the schools, but the home life of the kids. If the kids aren't taught at home to value education, they won't value it. If there parents are struggling to make ends meet they won't be able to take the time to teach them these lessons.

[@macahdahma7382]

@@threeofeight197 I concur. Yet for the Kenny Xu, Lauren Chen, and Kim Iversons of the world, they say openly that Asians study harder than Black and Latinos, and anything that effects them, Asians, is unfair. It's bad schools that are causing this when leadership doesn't believe that low-income kids deserve a better education. Kenny doesn't talk about how a large group of Asian students sided with Harvard in saying that Harvard doesn't discriminate again Asians, and that it was a White guy from New England who filed the suit because he wants to overturn Affirmative action at college/universities and keeps losing in court.

[@threeofeight197]

@@macahdahma7382 I just watched a piece Kim Iverson did on this subject and she did say Asians study harder. The sad thing is they probably do. Not because they are genetically better than everyone but because of their family structure and culture. African American families have been getting torn apart since they got here through no fault of their own (obviously). I think part of the solution has to be to help AA families stay together, make a living wage and thus have more time with their kids. End the drug war and stop putting poor ppl in prison.

[@lingoistj1956]

Well said. Tackle the cause. Then you’ll fix the symptom.

[@alexwalker5645]

@@threeofeight197 I agree with most of what you said here….but aside from just learning to value education….kids of all school ages need to learn to value life. From their own to others lives. And present yourself as a serious and down to earth person. Know what reality is vs. fantasy and day dreaming. If you can’t even accept that you need to try to present yourself as a serious person, a welcoming person that commands welcoming from all….then there is no chance. I had some friends growing up that couldn’t help it but to crave testing consequences…going belligerently against the grain…dressing ironically or unrealistically and knowing it….yet then having a chip on there shoulders when consequences were dished out. Rinse and repeat. Madness.

[@utilitymaximizer9026]

I always thought Grim is a sane progressive, a little disappointed.

[@mjdailamy4550]

Elaborate, perhaps?

[@ctva2719]

Kenny responses made very good sense. Grim tried to shed light and help the other side of but didn’t succeed. The young woman sounded pretty fair to me by sticking to her neutral and matter-of-fact questions. Not all issues can be addressed in a short time window but the most important questions were brought up.

[@magic22222222222]

no such thing as a sane self-proclaimed progressive

[@donthireddysneha]

Why invite the author and ask him to talk about his book, if you don't want to listen to what he has to say? You don't have to agree with him, but there is no need to be insulting and condescending. I don't see much difference between you and mainstream media.

[@wkl3553]

I used to be an ardent Ryan Grim fan. Now I realize how misguided that was.

[@cbstein]

@@wkl3553 I lost my last remaining ounce of respect for him

[@xyzsame4081]

They did listen to what he had to say, he was not interrupted and had plenty of time to make his case. It is not their job to uncritically agree to everything. And when he was (politely) challenged on the arguments he could have perfected his argumentation .... did not go so well.

[@michaelkaiser8694]

Kenny’s on point: you have to take accountability in your own community and as an individual.

[@ctva2719]

Take accountability everyday and for every action.

[@whisper2284]

Kenny makes a point about Harvard that should be addressed. However, he shouldn't downgrade the history of America with regards to enslavement and apartheid/segregation/Jim Crow. Kenny knows that when the Vietnamese arrived in large numbers they were given refugee status. That comes with Government aid and financing. The Vietnamese used that $$ to open businesses. That's how they moved up. The Chinese, and Koreans came over via the 1965 Immigration act that required educated immigrants to enter the country. That meant that America got the educated Asians and so it is logical that they come in with a headstart. It would be like admitting Einstein into the country. Same for African nations. We get the most educated Africans and Indians. Look at Mexico with its porous border with the United States. Illegal immigration brings the masses and not so educated.

[@Leila-sd1sl]

@@whisper2284 - the Chinese has been coming to the US since the mid-1800s， majority are peasants. The bulk of the immigrants came under the family unification act, family members of these peasants, only in last 30 years, some of them were foreign students and stayed under the H1B1 and others

[@whisper2284]

@@Leila-sd1sl what is your point?

[@jkbzz]

@@whisper2284 God bless you for this. The dude just ignores a whole lot of data whilst parrotting his narrative to sell his new book.

[@savvyroca]

I’m black I’m defending Kenny Xu. The grade inflation and dysfunction in minority schools is ridiculous. I’ve had friends mention to me how they NEVER wrote an essay or learned about Pythagorean’s theorem til they got to college and hence were dropped in remedial classes. In addition, grade inflation is dangerous kids are getting a’s in the class then transfer to a community college or a non-dysfunction school and their spirits are crushed because they are getting C’s. At the underperforming school they simply weren’t taught the curriculum. Teachers were not giving them feedback in the form of accurate grading so that they can take accountability and do better. Also, in these underperforming schools if a student (or parent) speaks up regarding lazy or unqualified usually Union teachers (or calls out the dysfunctionality I.e. having out of date threadbare textbooks but still allocating a million dollars for a new track field) they get harassed out of the schools by teacher’s/school board/principals.

[@arisistible1]

Only thing “systemic” is the formula for dividing us as free people by government and tech giants through fear mongering. Hard-work and self accountability is the key to success. It’s not color that stops anyone, it is character.

[@DavidLee-co6gp]

The real danger here is that the same people want this to continue in college and beyond. The same thing. Massive grade inflation. Let everyone pass even if they don't know the material. They graduate. Then what? Oh, then they want to become doctors and lawyers. Should we let them get a pass there, too? No bar exam. No medical boards. Lol. Do you want someone doing your surgery who should have flunked out of college?

[@jeffb713]

Wow...Ryan Grim lost credibility with me on this interview. Not only was Grim a terrible host, and Xu a gracious guest in spite of Grim's obvious hostility, Grim's attempted counterpoints seemed like elementary "uhh uhh" retorts. Xu's point is there is racism and biases present in every country and community, however the Asian American community decided to control their own destiny regardless of the numerous and seemingly insurmountable hurdles they've had to overcome. I was lost on any point Grim was trying to make.

[@twm5977]

Grim appeared very ignorant during this interview

[@bigheadrhino]

It felt like he was playing Devil’s Advocate without any actual knowledge on the subject.

[@verw719]

Kudos to Kenny Xu for stating inconvenient truths and persisting while the 2 are twisting themselves in pretzels to defend "systemic racism".

[@noshadow666]

The host tanked his argument at the end when he basically exposed the stupidity of why he believes America is systematically racist, when he complained of the fact it's 70% white... sorry, that doesn't make it racist, it's why civilised countries have laws enforcing equality. Go complain to all the ethno states out there that refuse to have forced diversity, and don't have half the freedoms the west does. See how well whites do in many African countries, and the freedoms or benefits/favouritism they get compared to Africans in the US today, it's no contest.

[@tatriceshipp9139]

The lie is that it is 70% white.

[@noshadow666]

@@tatriceshipp9139 yup sorry, 61.6% so even less likely to be systemically racist. Thnx. 👍

[@davos4268]

Ryan Grimm inadvertently justified the premise of the book

[@wizzyno1566]

Ryan actually proves the title of this guys book. The guys arguments are inconvenient to the "its all racism" narrative.

[@szahmad2416]

On the contrary, they were a pathetic attempt to frame the argument as "this isn't because of racism" when it is.

[@wizzyno1566]

@@szahmad2416 buuulshit.

[@alfonstabz9741]

@@szahmad2416 victim hood racism ... the one who claim victim hood get's privilege.

[@glennk3050]

Its wrong to fight racism at one education level with more racism at another. If universities want to help fix the problem, perhaps they should send consultants to improve bad school districts.

[@rustyford5511]

Obviously that's racist. It will never get solve, there's always an excuse

[@ArnoldSommerfeld]

You cannot fight something that does not exist. Tilt at windmills much?

[@dwwolf4636]

It's an excellent vehicle to grant more power ( and money ) to .gov

[@James-ip1tc]

At least we had the discussion without going into complete meltdown and accusations

[@keefdavis244]

Like invading the Capital?

[@stopgettingtriggered]

@@keefdavis244 just like BLM "protests"?

[@Rambleon444]

To be progressive you have to believe two wrongs make a right.

[@elisereynolds945]

This dude Kenny was super prepared for this. I’ll be watching him.

[@randallanno2327]

Too bad the hosts weren't as prepared

[@Coderdawg]

The Asian that are coming to the US are the professional class. So obviously their kids are gonna succeed

[@hanh3000]

@@Coderdawg that's plain not true. Many Chinese immigrants are not educated. They come here not able to speak a lick of English and severe cultural barrier and in destitute. Working long hours at the most dead end job imaginable. This is the typical story of many immigrants from all walks of life. Sure, some immigrants, Asian or not, are educated. But many are not. I don't know why there is this thinking many Asian immigrants are educated. You have to break Asians down to their respective ethnic group to get a better grasp of this. For example, Japanese are quite different than Chinese in their experience and background as immigrants. I can attest to this not only because I'm an Asian immigrant myself but also witnessed many immigrants from all walks of life of their struggles. I'm saying any of this from victimhood perspective or wanting to show our "struggle". But the idea of most of us are properly educated is simply not true. I don't know where you live but there are Chinatowns in New York City where I live. When you venture into these areas, you will most certainly know many of these folks are not properly educated.

[@mystictraveler8642]

It is so absurd to hear that "personality" is used. So to be a person who is just very reserved doesn't qualify you? It is just so absurd.

[@EverettBurger]

Introverts getting punished.

[@mystictraveler8642]

@@EverettBurger Exactly.

[@abdul-rahmanwashington2479]

If they did not use it, we would have emotionless reserved drones running the country. Emotional intellegince is important for survival.

[@EastSide-qc5oy]

Where did his description of “personality” show they are discriminating against people who are more reserved?

[@mystictraveler8642]

@@abdul-rahmanwashington2479 they have emotions. It's so absurd what you're saying. You fell into this idea. It's nothing more than an idea created by these Western adults. And they do have personality you just have to get to know them. Don't mistaken people who are well behaved and introverts as well as people being shy as not having personality. It is just so absurd.

[@stevep112]

I am a teacher in a low performing school -- what Kenny is saying, while uncomfortable to hear, is 100% true. The failure is a direct result of poor leadership at the District levels and nearly non-existent parental engagement. What Ryan is missing is that the leadership enacting these ineffective policies and the educational practices themselves ARE the reason for the issues. Among other issues, the hyperfocus and claiming everything is systemic racism IS leading to more systemic racism because things like social skills, math, reading, writing, and science become secondary. But to point this out is dismissed entirely because of political partisanship. The echo chamber continues, and the kids are the ones that suffer.

[@briansandford3596]

I think I agree with your point about poor leadership at the district levels and non-existent parental engagement being the problems. However, I think it's ok to call that systemic racism. It's a self-perpetuating cycle. It is systemic.

[@michaelneufeld4515]

Literally no one is saying that "everything is systemic racism" though. That's just what you conservatives choose to hear instead of actually listening to what's being said.

[@SimonSozzi7258]

Secondary to what? Nobody is teaching "Critical Race Theory" in Public schools. 12% of the population can't be the downfall of our Public School System. I do agree with you though that the majority of the time, Mainstream Media is only concerned with the Race component and not the Class issues which underly everything. In this case it was unavoidable because of the subject matter. Ryan and his co-host were merely pointing out the obvious. I don't agree with the guests fundamental argument but I think we all do agree with his closing statement that it's not ALL just about "Racism". That's a Strawman.

[@samuelsaunders155]

I homeschool for this reason. It's a burden on us financially but at least my kids principles will stay liberal and merit is kept at the core of their values. No participation medals round here.

[@paganlordofwar3456]

Well said, sir!

[@kkrenken895]

Ask how asian immigrants were able to put their kids in better schools. Hard work, maybe.

[@iamtheiconoclast3]

I love how everyone peddling the "yeah but Asians don't know real suffering" narrative is always so very careful to leave Jews and Indigenous Americans out of the conversation.

[@dukemocchi]

Indigenous people by far had it the worse! Yet we dont hear them complain about poverty, and lack of oppotunities because they are still bound to their culture and spiritualism. Blacks and Transgender dont have any of that just the superficialness of their arguments

[@jessetoler1032]

Jews haven't faced any suffering in America.

[@paganlordofwar3456]

@@jessetoler1032 Right...🙄

[@theuglykwan]

@@jessetoler1032 They have but they have really high admission rates in universities and top industries. Interestingly it is Asian Americans that are usually targeted for admission discrimination. The real beneficiaries are the legacy admissions while everyone else fights each other for the remaining.

[@jaykay415]

@@jessetoler1032 you might not know that Jews were banned from many places, as recently as the 40s and 50s, such as hotels, clubs, sports organizations, and yes ivy league colleges. They had to find jobs in their own companies. Most came here dirt poor, at the turn of the century (@1900) escaping from the gratuitous slaughter of pogroms.

[@h313wright6]

Where's Irami when you need him?!

[@rosestone5091]

Yes! That would be a Real debate!

[@stephenbailey9969]

I went to UCLA in the late 1980's and the number of Asian Americans was capped to 'maintain diversity'. That was before Prop. 209 which was supposed to end looking at race or ethnicity. But just in 2018 it was released that at the University of California African Americans were given a 230 point bonus to their SAT scores, Hispanic students received 185 points, while Asian-Americans were penalized 50 points. (Source: UC Admission Still Getting Harder For Asians From CA | FLEX College Prep)

[@bigdaddy1024]

Idiocrasy.... 🎧🤣🎯🥁

[@mystictraveler8642]

Wow

[@remyhemmingson7546]

Racism at it's best!!!

[@iamtheiconoclast3]

So someone had to sit in a room one day and take it upon themselves to *quantify* how much dumber one race is than another. Oh wow, these poor helpless black people will never make it in life without my white hand to help them. I'll just put in some bonus points. Oh look, a Latino - or I hear they definitely prefer it when we call them 'Latinx' - well they're kind of dim too but not as much as black people. Sir, you will get fewer bonus points. And there, all done! Thank goodness for us white people or I just don't know what these suckers would have done to survive. This makes me furious, but if I wasn't white, it would make me even more furious.

[@guyserious2468]

@@remyhemmingson7546 Indeed. Racism can come in many forms. This is definitely one of the better ways to do use it.

[@michaelcarter266]

I agree with Kenny xu

[@iamtheiconoclast3]

"Personality score" tells you everything you need to know. Anyone who isn't willing to come out and say what they're actually doing is untrustworthy.

[@cattreeoflife980]

And you think that black people haven't been getting negative personality scores for just cuz they were black, come on dude

[@theuglykwan]

@@cattreeoflife980 These are designed to increase black admission rates. They need to get less points to get in. When it is based on test scores, asian admission is much higher.

[@maelstrom8757]

An applicant who attends a substandard school but still achieves high scores is arguably more intelligent than an applicant who scored a bit higher but attended an excellent school and had parents who paid for a private SAT prep course. Furthermore, one of my college classmates received perfect scores on the SAT but socially and emotionally he was obviously impaired. Harvard can't select the best candidates by looking only at SAT scores and extracurriculars that require financial support.

[@Miabalzitch]

yes, I think these higher ed schools are trying to correct a racial disparity with a system that reproduces other types of inequities, and relies on some pretty smelly values to "achieve" those ends. but this author is peddling some softcore racial supremacy in retaliation to it. I think the conversation should be focused on completely reforming our public education system to erase these race-based disparities from pre-k up. to my mind that means universal pre-k, free college for all (like it used to be...), and disentangling public school funding from local property values/taxes. And all of this absolutely must be done democratically. hard sell to the royalty this country serves though lol

[@janewx1]

​@@theuglykwan are you sure its only blacks that disproportionately benefit from this?

[@KM-pq7sr]

These hosts seem to have a blatant left wing bias.

[@matthewnicholls5496]

If I wrote.a book that posited that Asians are more successful because they come from cultures that aren't Christian compared to African Americans that are strong church goers can I get on rising?

[@mildredmartinez8843]

Love it.

[@clarestucki5151]

The incontrovertible conclusion here is that the fact that pointing out racial disparities is defined as "racist/racism" does NOT make it any less factual.

[@jamesscott7616]

It's not incontrovertible it is challengeable. Kenny is a very intelligent man but his values are not shared by others. Some people would rather play beautiful and moving music than writing a book about racial exceptionalism.

[@ccole1255]

The way Ryan just looks at Emily and says nothing when the Asian dude says "Who do you THINK is in charge, white people?!"

[@91dodgespiritrt]

Yes. Ryan and Emily pathetically confimed their "guilt" and stupidity at that moment. It was hilarious!

[@Irv350]

you got a timestamp on that?

[@CastleArchon]

This show has the charisma that matches the look of dread on their faces.

[@marshallkobe]

You are right, their delivery isn’t close to krystal and saagar. It’s probably the biggest reason the show is failing.

[@CastleArchon]

@jcorb or...I could watch Krystal and Saagar and get both.

[@carll9615]

@jcorb Your kidding right? Because nothing screams charisma like a 60 year old guy in a 40 year old J.C. Penny dress shirt.

[@carll9615]

@jcorb I'm going to go with people are listening because he's not exclusively saying only approved talking points and sound bites. Which means I can disagree with a lot but might learn something. That can't happen with an echo chamber of what someone wants to hear.

[@montaewhite]

it's his pause when ryan asks him how he accounted for different factors for me

[@josephclark5414]

I know, that pause, right before he responded with a perfectly valid answer. I hear ya.

[@montaewhite]

@@josephclark5414 and you can enjoy that opinion

[@josephclark5414]

@@montaewhite Please enjoy the luxury yourself, while it lasts. Cheers!

[@ArnoldSommerfeld]

Well done Kenny Xu. Patiently refuted their talking points.

[@kohakugawazy]

I’d argue that historically Asians were treated worse than other minorities but that’s exactly the point, it doesn’t matter because it was history now.

[@joshwwarren]

Hmm, I think what Kenny "should" say is fix it at the bottom instead of in the universities so that everyone is more competitive. He made me think of that but he's thinking of it a little backwards himself by himself focusing on it "not" being about consequences of racism at the bottom.

[@xmalcom650]

My three Nigerian cousins came to this country in their early thirties. Their first jobs were stocking shelves and janitorial work. A decade later, one is a nurse, one is a doctor and the other is a lecturer.

[@janewx1]

What’s your point? Did you not here the part where blacks are disproportionately placed in failing schools?

[@noktilux4052]

@@janewx1 Fix the schools.

[@xmalcom650]

@@janewx1 Then fix the schools. Lowering standards won't help blacks. Example, why are students allowed to speak using slang in schools? Why are teachers not correcting improper grammar when students speak?

[@janewx1]

@@xmalcom650 “Then fix the schools. Lowering standards won't help blacks” Well lets address the elephant in the room first. Your cousins were in thier 30s when they came to this country.I don’t think you can compare the educational level of a 30 something year old let alone the life experience to that of a kid who’s age ranges from 15-18. Not an intelligent comparison. “Example, why are students allowed to speak using slang in schools? “ “Why are teachers not correcting improper grammar when students speak?” So is your argument that if kids are corrected on their usage of language they’ll preform better on standardized testing?

[@commoncents7577]

Statistically speaking, naturalized black Americans, like your Nigerian cousins, are economically equal to white Americans while "native" blacks dramatically lag in socio-economic positioning in our class system. That's a fact...but, the why of it is a head scratcher.

[@richardweaver124]

Culture is the answer that they were afraid to say. One culture pushes excellence

[@91dodgespiritrt]

...while another DOES NOT.

[@Rambleon444]

@@91dodgespiritrt Yeah but you are not allowed to say this, or you will be labeled RAACIST.

[@stopgettingtriggered]

BIG FACTS

[@oluade626]

Also you’d think Harvard is overflowing with Black and Hispanic people 😂😂 when it’s not at all. It’s legacy students who are almost always white

[@andrewharmon8321]

If I remember the lawsuit correctly it states that if you based the admissions on merit Asians would represent roughly 75% of the total student body so being held down to roughly 50% is significant.

[@commoncents7577]

Blacks make up 18% of Harvard's student enrollment, which is 4% HIGHER than their national demographic representation.

[@westpacific52]

@@andrewharmon8321 The UC system in California is color blind. UCLA and Cal (the most difficult to get into) are over 55% Asian.

[@rustyford5511]

Yea and most of the students that do get through shouldn't have. That's the whole point of the Harvard lawsuit.

[@JimQuistJQ]

The guest states the obvious, the truth. Stop blaming everybody else. Be accountable.

[@seanwhitehall4652]

Or acknowledge that luck is a real thing, or do both.

[@rmblue2427]

It’s never gonna happen. It will be deflection and bringing up centuries past until the end of time.

[@tonjamarshall2490]

A

[@fkisr]

Ryan Grim no creditability

[@gborg100]

If blacks are in underperforming schools, why are those schools underperforming? Is it due to the quality of teaching, the quality of students or the quality of the neighborhoods? A number of years ago under a court ruling, Kansas City, Mo., was required to spend as much on its underperforming schools as neighboring high-performing schools districts spent, on a per capita basis. The KC schools thus got all the resources that the best schools had. But the result was virtually no improvement in student test scores. What conclusion might we draw from this?

[@Tamales21]

That home life and the neighborhoods you grow up in is as important or more important than your school. Asian families stick together better because the war on drugs doesn't target them.

[@jms3827]

This guy didn't defend his position as well as he should have although I agree with him for the most part as a black person myself. If you further disect the black community and look at african immigrants like Ghanaian-Americans they have higher household incomes and education statistics than even native born white Americans. This is true for many other African immigrant groups and their decendants. That just proves his point that for the most part systemic racism is just a myth.

[@darrenlongley8491]

I believe that is also the case for immigrants from Nigeria when comparing household incomes and education.

[@kappanup07]

How can you compare the gains of an African immigrant who is first or second generation in this country, to 400 years of chattel slavery, Black codes, Jim Crow, red lining, voter suppression, incarceration, etc? Its a compounded issue of generational trauma, domestic terrorism that has intentionally burnt down centers of Black wealth, gaps in access to education, healthcare and so on and so forth. This is the entire argument of reparations - its not due to ALL Black people from across the diaspora, its due to the American Descendants of Slaves who have endured without gain, yet everyone else has reaped off their struggle.

[@VTAcraft]

Exactly. Way more intra-racial differences than inter-racial differences. Poor black people should be figuring out what the rich black people are doing.

[@VTAcraft]

@@kappanup07 Because no black people alive lived through slavery, and for the things you listed that do affect current black people, if those things are racist then they'd be applying to African immigrants as well. Most of these immigrants show up just as poor or poorer than native black Americans. Personal behaviors are by far the most important determining factor for success.

[@bricktop7352]

EXACTLY!

[@rustyshackleford3487]

I can't believe in 2021 we have to argue that racial discrimination is wrong.

[@benjaminholm2311]

Don't think anyone is disputing that.

[@kenthomas1080]

Who argued that?

[@rustyshackleford3487]

@@kenthomas1080 Lol, no one. That was just a general statement regarding the anti-Asian admission standards which were discussed.

[@rustyshackleford3487]

@@benjaminholm2311 Except for the leftists who are actually still doing it.

[@benjaminholm2311]

@@rustyshackleford3487 Ah yes that's true

[@jonathantophispanicspeaker7135]

I really wish the host did not attack the guests. I was very interested in hearing the guest. My grandfather that raised me experienced racism as a Hispanic man. I have experienced racism myself. Yet, we have to take personal responsibility as the guest mentioned. I was raised in an uneducated home with a non English speaking, farm working grandfather because my mother went to prison and my father not present. Personal responsibility has helped me go to Georgetown U, start a business, donate to non profits, and live a very good life. God bless the greatest country in the world 🌎 🇺🇸.

[@YourMom-cu8yt]

The flaw in your logic is that it wasn’t just personal responsibility that led to your individual success. It was a series of opportunities that were presented to you and able to take advantage of. We have to do our best to make sure a pathway to success is ever present in people’s lives, instead of using the exception like you, to avoid making the rules that would lead to more positive outcomes. You’re basically shaming your grandfather because he never rose in economic status past a farmhand, insinuating that he didn’t take enough personal responsibility to learn a better paying skill set, but we both know that he was probably a hard worker that would have bettered himself if offered that path, but was instead taken advantage of by crony capitalism and put on a farm.

[@chinaexpat1827]

The schools are under performing because of the black students and black parents. I'm a black teacher, I know from my experiences as a student and as a teacher

[@iang7244]

Is this genetic or environmental?

[@iang7244]

@K Babylon Again, which environmental factors?

[@chinaexpat1827]

@@iang7244 CULTURAL

[@ArnoldSommerfeld]

@K Babylon Yes? So you expect we are going to have some future Nobel Prize winners in Physics from Africa, do you? And Fields medal winners too? What you consider exceptionally well, others consider mediocre.

[@tazg349]

Exactly my point as well. This Ryan Grim guy is trying very hard to be an obtuse dolt on this issue. Playing the fool is foolhardy. We see it through him. Lol! I’m Asian Am been in this country for 42 years. All I had entering the country was what I wore on the plane and a small luggage and my professional career. I came on a Friday and I started working on Monday. Meritocracy is the best antidote to racism. It’s blind to it regardless of the color of ones skin. I’m retired now with my African husband an MD. We have two millennial boys raised in very traditional ways of both our cultures with high expectations on them throughout their lives and they succeeded despite the melanin in their skin. Ive not seen any of them being discriminated throughout their young life. That’s why CRT to us is an unjustifiable but convenient tool of another form of racism, the bigotry of low expectations.

[@dysfunctionaltoday7836]

I am consistently shocked by how simplistic discussions about education are. Funding is based on property taxes. Less funding, fewer resources, less success. Money matters, new books matter, reasonably paid teachers matter. It's an unfair and in fact unconstitutional funding system which somehow never seems to get discussed, much less challenged.

[@JEHill]

Well said.

[@91dodgespiritrt]

Stop the fake news nonsense. Raising scores in education does not start with "FUNDING". Raising scores in education starts with "STUDYING". Too bad it takes hard work.

[@Tryingtofindmyway]

Education has become a jobs program for teachers, and administrators, we care more about them then the people they supposed to serve.

[@philaell]

@@91dodgespiritrt How is that fake news? It a fact in white neighborhoods and blacks. Poor white schools also under perform and dropout rates are high. Add in the discrimination and intimidation and that stacks things even more against black people. Sadly instead of realizing different people have different struggles you just believe what you have to to make yourself feel better.

[@ArnoldSommerfeld]

@Dysfunctional Today -Try again.- We know there is no correlation between funding and academic success. But we know there is a correlation between hours studying and academic success. And guess what, Asians study more.

[@kenthomas1080]

Inconvenient truths......

[@aben42933]

The implementation of critical pedagogy in school systems is one reason the schools are so bad. That’s why kids get inflated grades and passed from grade to grade. Historic discrimination is conveniently used as the reason for implementation of critical pedagogy and then blamed when the kids don’t excel academically. Its cynical and ideological, and doesn’t solve anything. Cultural differences play a huge part in this, but because of cultural relativism they are brushed aside. Jews were discriminated and killed in pogroms for thousands of years, suffered through a world war and genocide, survived communism and yet they have done extremely well in America and many other countries. That’s not to say that historic oppression doesn’t have consequences, but that those consequences can be overcome.

[@johnbalducci3496]

“prove that black excellence isn’t being suppressed” is like saying prove someone is innocent…. The burden is on you to prove black excellence IS being suppressed.

[@russellgallman7566]

That was intense. I just ordered 2 more Audible books this morning. Makes me curious to read this author's book too.

[@91dodgespiritrt]

Can't you read, "Gallman"? LOL

[@russellgallman7566]

@@91dodgespiritrt - Audible comes in handy when one is on the road as much as I have to be. Sometimes actually sitting down to read a book is now a luxury event. One either has the time to survive a pandemic, and then one may have enough time to survive the daily grind of getting by yet again. All the best, RG

[@Cvsthepharmacy]

@@russellgallman7566 Agree with this. When I used to commute to work 45 minutes each way, that gave me 1.5 hours of listening to a book that I otherwise would not have had the time to do. Plus you can set the speed to 1.5 or 2 times speed. Also I love how a lot of audiobooks are read by the author, and often includes special comments on a section of the book as well, which could give more context. I don't really understand the practice of shaming people or taking a stance of superiority if you physically read a book vs those who listen to them...I mean, shouldn't it be a good thing that we're overall consuming more knowledge and broadening our perspectives? Mini rant over.

[@favianrodriguez8014]

I wouldn't even check this book out of Library for free.

[@tplayer73]

Thank you, Kenny! Respect!!

[@lukemartinez7669]

Unsubbed. Rising has lost its way entirely. Race baiting nonsense.

[@lukemartinez7669]

Yeah. Krystal and Saagar were way more fascist. That's why I liked them.

[@omezey]

@@lukemartinez7669 Define 'fascist'.

[@FlutherGravins]

@@omezey Definition of fascism 1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control early instances of army fascism and brutality- J. W. Aldridge Source: Merriam-Webster ---------------------------------------- Your Welcome!

[@buffhardback7595]

Not something people want to hear, but it seems to me certain communities would rather blame everyone else for their problems and not try to help themselves. Then when it's too hard for them, they think the best answer is to just destroy their community, because it's not their fault they failed. Because "everyone else has it so easy."

[@cattreeoflife980]

Wow so the fact that America took people away from their families enslave them treated them like chattel sold their children off then after they achieved their freedom we enacted laws to make sure they were treated as non-human then when that was corrected we created Redlining that make sure they didn't get into good housing & communities & systemically demoralize them had nothing to do with this they're just crying & making excuses for the situation we enacted on them...

[@mesmer1218]

This is what it looks like when your pitiful argument gets wrecked by Ryan Grim’s calm monotone wall of obstinate historical facts.

[@TG-sy8hf]

Asian achievement is an example of the reality that individual agency and belief in the power of the self can create full achievement regardless of racism and a negative racial quota system.

[@CMatthewHawkins]

Kenny is circling in the general vicinity of a good point but he demonstrates that he is woefully unprepared for a serious discussion on this topic. He doesn't seem to appreciate the complexity of what he has bitten into and resorts to the same tired and empty talking points that only work when one is preaching to the choir. . There is an incredible amount of oversimplification on all parts of this debate. The main oversimplification is the notion that the experiences of non-white minorities in the U.S. are basically the same, which is something that Ryan Grim rightfully pushes back against and gives Kenny Xu the opportunity to address. Xu demonstrably fails to do so. . Both Xu and Ryan Grim would benefit from reading John Ogbu's "Minority Status, Oppositional Culture, & Schooling" (2008). For one thing, Ogbu and his interlocutors could teach Kenny a thing or two about what academic research really looks like (hint, it's not just a matter of gathering other people's research and drawing conclusions from them). Kenny would also learn how to distinguish between voluntary minorities (people who immigrated to the United States voluntarily and became minorities in search of a better life) and involuntary minorities (people who did not choose minority status voluntarily, but became a minority because their land was conquered, or the borders were changed, or they were brought here as slaves). The difference between voluntary and involuntary minority status has everything to do with how populations interact with institutions that affect their lives even today. . Ryan Grim, on the other hand, if he read Ogbu and his critics, would have to acknowledge that there is, as Xu poorly tried to express, a cultural component within Black households and communities that must be addressed. If Xu wants to carry his argument better than he currently does, he should study the "New Culture of Poverty" theorists, who examine how cultures and systems interact. Their work may not directly pertain to his argument about Asian Americans, but their work does cover a flank in his argument that he cannot afford to ignore if he wants to be taken seriously. But then again, maybe he isn't really interested in a serious inquiry into this issue. Maybe he is only interested in delivering talking points that will make him the darling of certain media circles for the moment.

[@bigheadrhino]

Kenny’s point about the african american math test scores is that the issues are happening at the pre college level and need to be addressed there. Also, now that the “personality” score has been exposed I can guarantee a lot of asian parents are going to have their kids get some kind of personality training or make them socialize more. Forcing them to have to study even harder than everyone else and then subjectively telling students they have a bad “personality” is pretty messed up though.

[@whisper2284]

This is a sick discussion. If we are all Americans how can one group feel good about soaring while another group of Americans are failing? Aren't we all Americans? China, Finland, Korea, Norway don't break down the quality of their education system by race or neighborhood and allow for the vast majority of their own citizens to underperform immigrants. Can we not see how sick this is? The way that we openly speak about one racialized group of Americans performing so well while utilizing public funding to get there while the other fails tell us that the quality of education is based on one's racial group and neighborhood. Therefore, why should there be public education if it performs so poorly?

[@bigheadrhino]

@@whisper2284 that is kind of the point. We should all be treated fairly. This also isn’t about immigrants vs native born because American Born asians are also being affected. The point is also not to put down people who are not doing well, it’s to find the right system to help people the most. Simply lowering the standards for disadvantaged groups does not address the underlying issues tgat start before college. Education isn’t just about degrees and what school you go to, education should be internalized in the students brain, and that’s what standardized tests measure. Getting placed in a competitive school where everyone around you scored way hire than you to get in is putting you at a huge disadvantage in higher ed. What’s wrong with going to a less famous school, doing well and then using your experience to guide your kids to hopefully qualify for an even better school?

[@whisper2284]

@@bigheadrhino No it isn't the point. Kenny is playing into the hands of Anti-American interests. A private institution should be able to bring onboard any student they desire. Yes, Harvard receives federal dollars via grants and aid to students as well as Title 9. However, it is still a private institution. Kenny and others advise Black students to go to a "lesser" University that fits their test scores. Well, then should Asians be told to go to a "lesser" school where kids that have little personality fit in just fine? See, how this goes? We Americans are being played. We've worked with lots of East Asians and they have challenges in corporate America with obtaining leadership roles because they're viewed as submissive and reluctant to make decisions without consensus. That's an issue that noone wants to talk about. So, the issue is not about any of that. It is about what kind of Educational system every American deserves that makes us all competitive. How are we comfortable with subpar K-12 schools? We shouldn't be able to point down at a group and say, "that group shouldn't gain access because we know they never got a quality education that compares to ours even though we all went to public schools financed by taxpayers". You see how sick this is? Well, I do and I refuse to play along.

[@iamsheep]

@@whisper2284 China literally has affirmative action for university entrance scores (gaokao) for ethnic minorities. It is such an advantage that the children of mixed marriages will almost always identify as an ethnic minority for this advantage.

[@mclager88]

Children in single-parent families by race in the United States Asian and Pacific Islander - 15% Black or African American - 64% Non-Hispanic White - 24% This is nothing to do with any of the disparities, of course

[@kingade2931]

Now compare that to the prison population by race. Then compare that to unemployment by race. Then compare that to wealth by race. Then compare that to schools by race. Systemic means the “whole system”

[@matthewbergman6803]

Ryan: Why are the schools underperforming? Kenny: It’s because there’s no discipline. They skip kids from grade to grade and don’t teach them anything. That’s why they’re failing in math. -.- ----- The real problem is that town governments can’t collect much property tax from people who don’t own valuable property. Towns are almost exclusively funded by property tax. If you don’t have people who can pay that much in local taxes, you create a situation where underperforming schools cannot buy more resources and hire more teachers. Want to improve the schools? Improve wages and property value! That, and state governments should chip in too.

[@westpacific52]

In most States (including California) all kids get the same amount of money regardless of their zip code....and towns are not exclusively funded by property tax, it's their share of sales tax they live from

[@boo2457]

Strong Family unit, emphasis on personal reasonability, focus on education, pride in owning a small business.. all things that Democrats loathe and work against.. and things that allow Asian Americans to excel in the US.

[@nickintven1508]

Author seemed genuinely unprepared for Ryan's logical questions.

[@barienwhite1]

Yet he’s an author on the subject

[@narendra62]

Bear in mind Mr Xu didn't know he would be asked the question beforehand. Taking a few seconds to collect thoughts is the right thing to do. So what was his reply? Hardship is nothing new. Immigrants come from difficult and sometimes traumatic situations. What makes them different from African Americans is their aspiration, work ethic and social discipline. Really nothing to do with systemic racism or historical injustice.

[@nickintven1508]

It just shows he was never challenged in debate. And I sure hope he didn't mean what you just said.

[@91dodgespiritrt]

Grim: "A system that disproportionately disadvantages one particular race - that's not racism" Dear Ryan Grim: That is precisely the definition of racism. You nitwit. Grim: "What is your point?" Kenny Xu: " You have to take accountability for your own community and your own actions." BRAVO KENNY. GAME, SET, MATCH TO KENNY XU.

[@EastSide-qc5oy]

Michael DAntonio Dude Ryan was being sarcastic.

[@ocmetals4675]

There are many reasons for the gap in prosperity between groups and we keep trying to say it is just one ☝️. And it’s not just one, history, culture, mentality, circumstances, policies (past and present), and more. They all contribute.

[@michaelneufeld4515]

Exactly. Conservatives constantly say there's only one reason for the disparity - that "black culture" is to blame. Whereas liberals and leftists take a universal approach that sees more factors involved.

[@abdul-rahmanwashington2479]

Generalities is killing this country.

[@mrbob459]

Complex issues in complex systems requires deep thought. Too bad we live in a society that only values shallow and simplistic thought. Ryan is too shallow to even see the truth of matters this guy is pointing out and making a weak attempt to address. Ryan trots out the normal cliches used by everyone to uphold the conventional wisdom. That there is truth in these cliches does not make Ryan's questions and defense of the conventional wisdom any more true. It certainly is not thought out. Unfortunately, this guy's thinking is not much better. He sees problems in the conventional wisdom so dismisses the entire theory as false and replaces it with a different one dimensional theory that is considerably less well thought out and which he cannot even defend himself when faced with some of the most foolish questions he can be asked by someone defending the conventional wisdom

[@michaelneufeld4515]

@@mrbob459 I think the point was the guy didn't even have an answer for these very basic questions. Who looked the fool more here? I do agree that a deeper perspective could be taken.

[@mrbob459]

​@@michaelneufeld4515 You are right. In a separate post I made that point myself. Ryan came across as an uninformed shill for the conventional wisdom, something he does not often appear to be. This guy could not even handle the most obvious questions a guy filling the role Ryan played here would be asking. Every question Ryan asked stopped him in his tracks, he did not have any answers for any of them.

[@TetsuoVI]

Excellently done! One person (Ryan during this piece) professionally pushes back with sound, thoughtful logical arguments while the other (Emily in this segment) helps to calmly moderate the debate from getting out of control and staying on topic. A prepared author/debater would have had more than enough opportunity here to soundly refute Ryan's counter point if they had the evidence to support it. This wasn't a shout-fest and the author had more than equal time to refute. I don't know why more news media cannot comport themselves this way. When publishing a broad statement comparing one group to another, one also must become rather expert on the detailed dynamics of the other groups being compared against in order for their logical argument to hold up; not doing so will easily highlight the author's lack of research and likely display their internal biases even under the mildest of academic scrutiny. Perfection team.

[@briansandford3596]

Agreed. Nice job to Ryan AND Emily.

[@sguardian870]

@Jamie Kinthaert they cant push back against nobody. It also cost money to have people on . They are a new show. Growing gradually. I repeat. You cannot push back on a no guest in the audience. When they were on rising, they had segments like this alot.

[@91dodgespiritrt]

Michael DAntonio Grim: "A system that disproportionately disadvantages one particular race - that's not racism" Dear Ryan Grim: That is PRECISELY the definition of racism. You nitwit. Grim: "What is your point?" Kenny Xu: " You have to take accountability for your own community and your own actions." BRAVO KENNY. GAME, SET, MATCH TO KENNY XU.

[@captainnes8520]

@@91dodgespiritrt I believe grim was being sarcastic in that statement you pointed out.. just a heads up.. smh..

[@emmanuelameyaw9735]

what's problem...just identify as black for the admissions...and identify as Asian when you get in.

[@tazg349]

Buying his book for my two Asian African millennials for Christmas. Hopefully they will appreciate that they should never feel being treated as inconvenient minorities.

[@jayak3768]

I don't know what the interviewer is trying to spin this argument into.

[@jordanshetrone7468]

what’s the difference between asian excellence and white excellence

[@kerwinbrown4180]

What? It is known that Asian parents are stricter on average. It's called Tiger parenting. Anyone can do it.

[@jamesedwards8885]

@@kerwinbrown4180 it also leads to disproportionate suicide rates among young adults

[@presidentresident]

On average Asian 'excellence' appears to be higher.

[@91dodgespiritrt]

NOTHING, EXCEPT THAT WE SAILED AROUND THE WORLD, CONQUERED IT, SET UP GOVERNMENTS WHILE CIVILIZING MASSES OF PEOPLE --------- AND THEY DID NOT.

[@wizzyno1566]

@@91dodgespiritrt The All Caps doesn't help, nobody takes anything in All Caps seriously.

[@nicholas77086]

Lumping together the experience of all Asians in America seems strange to me. Chinese that arrived pre Chinese exclusion act had a different experience than Chinese that arrived in the 60’s - present.

[@mrbob459]

He is doing the same thing he is criticizing in the normal way of thinking about the issue. It's called profiling and is used throughout our society to avoid having to really think about problems, learn what is actually going on and figuring out how to address and correct the problem. There is nothing wrong with it if it is used as a starting point for investigation, but police, politicians, and lay people most often use it as a way of saying, "I know enough, investigation complete, and don't ever ask me about all this other evidence that proves my profile inaccurate and inadequate to describe what is really going on." He looked at those issues in the conventional wisdom and his answer is to come up with an alternative profile that is less well thought out and probably contains more and greater contradictions than the profile that describes the conventional wisdom.

[@91dodgespiritrt]

It's for the same reason we LUMP (in your words) the different experiences of native black Americans that arrived in the 1600s with African immigrants who arrived in the last 30 plus years.

[@AdmiralBobbery123]

Absolutely - AsAms have the highest amount of intra-racial economic inequality of any other racial group in the country. It seems extremely foolish to paint all Asian Americans with the same brush as having "overcome structural racism". This guy is pretty dim.

[@kei2142]

or the rich Chinese exchange students who bought up expensive apartments outright from their rich daddy's money wired in from China as a hedge against the Communist Party's possible confiscation

[@kei2142]

@@AdmiralBobbery123 These people are usually the type that goes "I represent all of my race"

[@zarach9459]

I am Venezuelan, many Afro-descendant Venezuelans have immigrated to the United States and almost all of them say that Afro-American communities are horrible and they refuse to live in such communities, even if it costs them great sacrifices, it is not about race, it is about culture and traditions, Venezuelans They do not receive subsidies or help from the government, they value the family more than anything else, the parents arrive first in the country and look for work to save and bring their family to the USA and they worry about education, they are two different mentalities and that of African-Americans born in the United States is truly wrong.

[@necrus1401]

The guy wasn't prepared for the points Ryan was 100% gonna bring. As usual, I mostly agree with Ryan, but this time there is a cultural element he isn't appreciating. There is almost no greater disadvantage than being a 1st generation non-white, non english speaking person. The culture of these people (my wife included) is that the family sinks 100% of all resources into their kids early education, no matter what. The american lower class, even black americans, have a relative level of privilege compared to those coming here from the 3rd world. For them, starting with nothing creates a sort of grit that the American way of life rewards. Its easy to give everything to your kids when your used to having nothing. This is also why the harvard situation is frustrating. Families that put in significantly more work are often shortchanged on the basis of their asian heritage. None of that is to say we shouldn't be fighting systemic racism, especially towards black. Just that there is a legitimate conversation to be had here.

[@szahmad2416]

Thank you. As a second generation immigrant who also empathizes with the black community, I can appreciate this perspective.

[@paganlordofwar3456]

@@lutzaby1997 Not all. Allegedly.

[@spiritunbound9414]

This comment is fair and should have way more upvotes.

[@gregorypierquet6321]

@@lutzaby1997 That is certainly not the case for SE Asians who came to the US penniless and uneducated in the 70s and 80s.

[@cattreeoflife980]

I would agree with you on some points but the reason why people of color did not have the family unit is because our society literally took people of color from their Families put them on ships where about a third of them died (again family members) & used & bread them & sold their children like sheep & when they tried to rise up like in North Carolina where they were Running the government or had their own townships that we're thriving to burn them to the ground over & over & wrote laws to take away those advances so how can you even compare these experience... we on purposely broke down their family system that would have given them the opportunity to rise up like every other immigrant, it is disgusting that people do not understand this

[@jeffrp8388]

Bravo Kenny!

[@davidlandrum8534]

Asian Americans suffered much brutality in the 19th century

[@szahmad2416]

They were not chattel property, though.

[@davidlandrum8534]

@@szahmad2416 they were bought and sold and often kidnapped into indentured labor. Where I live in the west every community has history of chinese massacres. They died at high rates doing dangerous work and were put into internment camps too. Please read your history.

[@davidlandrum8534]

@@szahmad2416 they were often entirely removed from communities with violence. Once again read history

[@91dodgespiritrt]

But they kept coming here so they must've been running from WORSE BRUTALITY BACK HOME. HUH.

[@91dodgespiritrt]

@@davidlandrum8534 Why do you continue to live in Western Countries if they are so brutal? You must hate living every day. Why haven't you just "ended it all"? Huh? "Hypocrite"?

[@jn3750]

AA here. My parents came to this country with less than $500 (while raising 6 kids) and spoke absolutely NO English. 25 years later, we have a PhD (UT), 2 MDs (Stanford), 2 DDSs (Harvard), and a JD (NYU).

[@kevinmlafleche]

There is woke, but at some point, it's just pushing your head further down your own derrière. Always trying to say cultural differences are not the issue.

[@dgrolin]

I think part of the problem when talking about "systemic racism" is that the concept of "systemic" and its implications are often not fully appreciated. The failure of educational institutions are due to multiple factors. That is what is implied by "systemic". Culture, financing, when and how tests are applied and what those tests measure, are all elements that participate in a system. The question of whether the US is a meritocracy far transcends the question of whether a minority is able to overcome or align with the system.

[@byronhotchkiss5488]

ok, but it's all resultant from racial discrimination? You can call it systemic, but when you define that system as racist, you are identifying the root cause as racism.

[@91dodgespiritrt]

"...financing, when and how tests are applied and what those tests measure, are all elements that participate in a system." NONSENSE

[@ArnoldSommerfeld]

There is no such thing as systemic racism. A made up word to explain away some groups failure.

[@ArnoldSommerfeld]

There is no systemic racism. Try harder.

[@threeofeight197]

@@byronhotchkiss5488 I guess ppl who like the term "systemic racism" care more about outcomes than root causes. I think looking at the root causes is more important if you want to fix the problem.

[@dnyalslg]

What this guy and many conservatives say, that there is a cultural problem that keeps many minorities from achieving the American dream, is true. It is not the totality of the issue (environmental and systemic factors do play a role, even luck and meeting the right people), but certain cultural values form the greatest proportion of the problem with some minorities. I am brown Latino, but my mom instilled in me a need to constantly educate and better myself. We were poor, victims of a civil war that killed my father, yet she taught me that there is always room for improvement and I can't never allow myself to stagnate by tolerating mediocrity and squalor college immediatelyrejectedladder. I would help him apply for other positions within the company; for 8 months he applied and got rejected. He was depressed, but I insisted. Recently, he finally got a managerial position to work from home. He couldn't be happier; he tells me himself. He had spent 10 years before me in the same job, and within three years of moving in together, he has improved his job prospects by orders of magnitude. This is not to do praise myself but to show that the values I carry, the ones my mom taught me, do have significant impacts on our progress. Myself, my husband, my sister, we all were given these values and we all prospered as a result. My cousins, who did not get the same values, they are stagnant in poverty. So, when people tell me "but there are systemic factors," I say that there indeed are, but we as individuals also have agency to fight against or work within the system to achieve a better life, and that entails personal responsibility as well as asking for help from others.

[@lalv8861]

I believe that Latinos will florish in USA much more so than the Black community. Latinos work hard and their kids will grow up to be sucessful.

[@charliebarton]

Right, coming from Vietnam without English and receiving government assistance and having member of the community with capital to lend newcomers is the same as being enslaved for 200 years.

[@shaneviola8848]

No African Americans living today have been slaves nor have they in the past 60 years. Meanwhile they actually still do have slavery in some places in Asia such as Pakistan. In Cambodia 1/3 of the population was murdered by a communist dictator. So people literally escaped genocide and slavery. And the difference is these people who experienced it are still living today.

[@cattreeoflife980]

Exactly.!. thank you & it was disingenuous & disgusting but this was not brought up

[@cattreeoflife980]

@@shaneviola8848 you do know that in other countries slaves can work to get out of that status & their children are Not slaves & are considered partial citizens of that country & they are Not separated from their families put on boats were a third of them die & then are used & bread-like cattle so their children are also slaves & once they are free have laws written to make sure they are treated as non human with no rights for generations... you cannot compare other countries slavery to American slavery we are the only country where slavery was generational & the fact that you don't know this yet make such sickening comparisons is disgusting

[@theuglykwan]

Would government assistance be a unique advantage open to only viets? Was that some sort of special program? Because african americans qualify for govt assistance... Why is a group that has been here much longer unable to form the same community bank to help each other? My parents participated in loans with other Chinese. The interest rates are much higher to cover the risk that the borrower may not repay it. Asians don't necessarily help each other. They tend to help their own family and in group.

[@davefedatis725]

Great argument by Kenny. The reality is somewhere between what Ryan and Kenny say but whites cannot make Kenny’s argument for fear of being labeled racist

[@htboston]

As someone who was brought up in the Boston Public School system with mainly Blacks and Hispanics, in class, these kids rather talk about tv shows, music, basketball, shoes, and clothes rather than listening to their teachers while the Asian kids were doing their work. Both can be true, but parents need to talk more accountability for their kids' performance in class. I seriously doubt they do. Things may have changed, since I graduated from high school back in 2008. From 4th to 12th grade, there were literally zero teacher-parents conference to check how the kids were doing.

[@Armed-Forever]

eeeeeeexactly, ppl are scared to just say it, black kids don't care at higher rates

[@bellingdog]

I think they need to get Coleman Hughes on here to illustrate that culture has a lot to do with college graduates, more so than actual race.

[@dmoton314]

Exactly. I get that the point he's trying to make, but Black immigrants from places like Nigeria, West Indies also do better than Black Americans in many measures - It's not strictly about race. Likewise, there are Asian American groups that don't do very well when they come to the US. I'm not necessarily endorsing critical race theory... but I don't think his thesis disproves it. Smells kinda grifty tbh

[@Redrage-gl6pv]

Considering that race is cultural/social construct this point is pretty moot. That's a big reason why Sowell's critique of these matters is so off kilter as well. Coleman Hughes isn't exactly an intellectual heavy lifter either. If you want conservatives that can debate Ryan Grimm that's fine, you can do better than Hughes

[@bellingdog]

@@Redrage-gl6pv Coleman isn't a conservative, at least he doesn't identify as one, and has only ever voted Democrat...kind of weird for a conservative to do. In saying that, even if we take your point, and say race is a cultural/social construct, then we must say that there is no point to this whole conversation as it is merely a construct, but this is a lie, as it has meaning, and therefore is not be brushed away as a moot point.

[@Aleksamson]

If a broader system is oppressing minorities we should see minorities failing equally under the same system.We shouldn't see disparity between minorities when they are mistreated equally by the same system. If certain minority is successful, then the reason for the failure is clearly somewhere else

[@deannariggs]

I thought Kenny did a good job and Ryan may cringe a bit if he watches himself in this segment. Kenny is coming at from a solutions oriented perspective- Ryan is spending his energy linking current conditions to past conditions... which I don’t disagree with... it’s just not productive in getting to our shared goal of creating high achievement learning environments for kids in this country. Grading inflation in underserved schools is a real thing. My friend was a substitute teacher at a school in the Bronx while a teacher was on maternity leave. He told me the principal (black woman) had him change test scores all the time. he felt horrible for but ultimately did it bc he felt so much pressure. Problem is- what happens when those kids go to college? Will they be able to thrive academically if they are behind? How will the institution’s standards change to accommodate? What effect does that have on our workforce? And so on.. we all 100% agree deeply that slavery and Jim Crow and all racial discrimination is wrong- so let’s (for the sake of productivity) table that discussion so we can start investigating changes we can make- test new ideas, make optimizations, implement changes and start scaling.

[@DungeonMasterElite]

What hes saying about social promotion of students is spot on. When students fails classes, they need to be retained at all grades not just high school. The systemic problems in schools are more of an affect of the failures of the economic systems in this country for minorities.

[@kerwinbrown4180]

There is more than that. I suspicion crime level has an effect on education. The quality of instructors is reduced by it and the mental health of students is harmed by it.

[@DungeonMasterElite]

@@kerwinbrown4180 agreed

[@real_lostinthefogofwar]

The poorer the school district, the less funding for education, regardless of colour.

[@h2t26]

Depends on the state and changing the funding can cause its own problems. In CA we passed a law so the fuds are more evenly distribute but now areas where the cost of living is higher can't find teachers cause they can't pay them enough. Before they would have had the money to do so.

[@juanmmm979]

This is where I feel Kenny missed the point, it's not just about race it's about class. Poor people are always more disenfranchised

[@szahmad2416]

The more black a neighborhood got, the more white people moved out to the suburbs and tried to cut funding to their old neighborhoods.

[@foodbeforepills8749]

Kids don't want a trophy for getting out of bed in the morning but it's the bad system, culture that gives them that. Look at the sports heroes like Jordan, Kobe for example. They also worked the hardest.

[@U2L8]

The point the guest is trying to make is that there’s no industry in America that does more to equal out the demographics in charge than the public school system. So school boards, super intendants, principals, v principals, teachers, guidance counselors etc typically reflect the school’s demographics yet despite the massively left leaning mentality of equality of equity in the public education system the biggest failures are still coming out of black communities. That being less indicative of the mythical “white man oppression” mentality and far more of an expectation problem. While most communities of all financial levels place the emphasis of their children’s education & their fore involvement in their education are we truthfully seeing that as a overwhelmingly majority mindset within the black community these days. Obviously there’s varying factors which is exactly why it comes down to many of the black communities around the country having an overall culture where priorities seem to have lead astray. That said I do believe it’s all Americans duty to support the need for more resources within these communities to help repair the fractures within these communities but ultimately at the end of the day ppl of any community have to want better for themselves and others around them in order for anything to truly get repaired. Accountability has to be a starting point for outsiders to believe theirs benefit to investing their own time, energy & resources to any cause yet all we see now is them taking the blame for why others are in the situation their in.

[@zh3054]

If nothing else, Kenny is a true expert at eloquently responding to any question other than the one being asked

[@sharonh7857]

He speaks like a true master bater

[@Mostly_bad]

It’s amazing to me how new immigrants to this country don’t recognize how African Americans made the American dream possible for them. They cleared the minefield.

[@elborichu1]

This was a very difficult conversation to have but I hear you my guy! Very interesting points.

[@ricsalas7310]

Having been an educator for over 30 years, growing up in a economically depressed community that was overwhelmingly Latino where limited resources were available to the local public schools (the funding of public schools per child is based primarily on property taxes resulting in inferior facilities, lack of critical resources to purchase books, pencils & a dearth of today's advanced technologies with teachers & school administers overwhelmingly white that had difficulty relating to immigrant children in many rural communities) all affected the success & failure rates of children. When one evaluates the families of these immigrant children, they come from households where parents left Mexico with little to no education who's ability to assist their children with the challenges encountered in the United States were seriously disadvantaged. Contrast that with Asian children whose parents are more highly skilled, better educated bringing those advantages to the U.S. (many Asian immigrants of South Korea, Japan, the Philippines are more prepared to adapt to the U.S. society than Asians who come from rural areas of Cambodia, Laos, & Thailand). Take a middle or upper-income immigrant from another part of the world who were trained professionals & more often than not, they will succeed in the U.S. or any other advanced industrial society. The Cubans that left that island to escape Castro's Communist dictatorship with relatively little to nothing more readily adapted to Florida because they were from the more prominent economic & educated groups. Successful immigrants in their homeland don't want to immigrate unless the political & economic system becomes untenable. Kenny Xu studied the NY school system, makes these broad observations when he hasn't done his homework. I studied the academic success of minority groups attending the UC system & state university systems of California who were admitted under studied financial aid & other support services & their GPAs were higher the first year than whites. What does that say? It says that there is no testing system that can measure one's intelligence, determination & fortitude. This issue is politicized & the far right Supreme Court will do away with Affirmative Action & disadvantaged groups whether people of color or whites will pay the price, used as a political football & not address the socio-economic conditions & history afflicting some groups over others. Although I was orphaned as a child, I overcome my circumstances & raised a son who attended UC Berkley, graduated as an engineer & lives a middle-class lifestyle who's children will also have a greater chance of academic success. Our diversity is our strength & integrating universities with people with a variety of backgrounds, takes advantage of the strength & vitality from people of all walks of life. No group has a monopoly on ability or talent. Finally, Donald Trump & George Bush, Jr. were the poster boys of having white privilege does not assure exceptional intelligence.

[@adamabbas1487]

As a science teacher, this has been my experience. Kids that come from a nuclear family that value education and hard work will be much more likely to succeed. This is regardless of ethnic group. Asians, especially outside the US are experts at gaming the University entrance system. Asians often put a lot more time and effort into academics and don't really value other aspects that a high level university would look for in terms of character. For example in terms of evidence of showing initiative, leadership, collaboration skills, creative thinking and service. Remember that these are huge generalisations. I have taught Asian kids who do things to help others that isn't solely for the purpose of impressing universities and other ethnic groups who will only do something if it increases their chances of getting into a good university. Grade inflation occurs whenever a school can get away with it.

[@91dodgespiritrt]

REAL TRUTH like that won't win you many friends, in this "let's make excuses for failure" comment thread. Kudoes to you!!

[@seekingtruth5380]

I am shocked. Ryan Grim just doesn't get it. How can he be for racism for one race and against racism for another simultaneously. The merits of Racism are not situational. It's either always right or always wrong. It's not ok to be racist against "this group only." And Kenny Xu makes an excellent point. Education is managed at the local level, so its representation is also at the local level. For Ryan Grim to make it sound ridiculous that minorities do not control the areas where education is failing is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. The educational system has been broken for decades. We have thrown billions of dollars at it and have seen little to no improvement. Integration was supposed to fix things and it didn't, partially because the whites in Congress didn't really support it. Check our current president's voting record and comments on schools becoming "racial jungles" (his words, not mine). The only viable solution I've heard is school choice. Let people vote with their feet. Oh wait, I'm sorry, that's a radical right wing conspiracy that Trump supported. Never mind. It's a horrible idea. Let's just keep doing what we've been doing. Who is this guy anyway? He sure is Grim.

[@scottguitar8168]

I feel like what Kenny said went right over Grim's head. A great example would have been Chicago with a black major and many other blacks in charge of the system, yet they don't give the blacks there a good education because the goal is to keep them poor and uneducated so that they vote Democrat to keep their social welfare. Kenny is right, it isn't about race, it's about class, where even many whites get affected negatively by the upper class that consists of all races. Racism is the tactic used to distract and divide people to fight amongst themselves, while the elite profit from it, in both money and power.

[@saber26ful]

It was tough watching this. Those hosts were 100% cardboard cutouts of snooty white liberals. Thank goodness Kenny held his own and diced their arguments a lá Ben Shapiro style.

[@jcboyle82]

10:30 to watch a conservative realize he doesn’t understand what systemic racism is and fall back on the ol’ “personal responsibility” argument. I’m beginning to see why this guy didn’t get into whatever school he wanted to. And it’s not race.

[@michellelivengood7708]

Kenny is correct! You shouldn't punish the success of one group because another is suffering. We have to get to the root cause. The major problem is lack of school choice!!!

[@chidorirasenganz]

Nope

[@anarasi]

Great discussion!

[@johnyoungkim]

Omg Kenny embarrassed Ryan Grimm.

[@IOFrimpong]

It's a bit weird to have this conversation without the phrase "H1B visa" coming up. Also, the structure of the argument is strange: there is no racial discrimination in the US, but the appearance of racial discrimination in the US against Blacks and Latinos makes it the case that there is actual racial discrimination in the US against Asians. Wouldn't it be easier to cut to the chase: We need to talk about racial discrimination against Asian Americans. (The big problem is that he makes his money bashing CRT, when CRT helps him make the strongest part of his argument: the gymnastics we do over college admissions is about protecting legacy Whites. That's why University of California system got rid of the SAT.)

[@IOFrimpong]

Also, "it's not racism; it's public education," argument, but public education is funded by property taxes and mediated through the real estate industry....I'm a bit confused about how this cat thinks racism is expressed. "Take accountability for your own community" If race isn't an issue, who is my community?

[@IOFrimpong]

For his argument to work, the systemic attack on Blacks and Latinos is false, but the attack on Asian Americans is real. Yet whatever is going on, it's very important that the people doing the attack aren't White.

[@vermithrax7796]

I hope you're working on a show that'll address Mr. Xu's sophistry. If so I look forward to it.

[@tristonmitchell]

Thank you, Irami. I always enjoy and appreciate the way you can dissect an argument and magnify each issue one by one.

[@Miabalzitch]

ok, i have taught at low-performing schools as well, (whoopty doo) and I can't help but bristle at the comments returning this discussion to laying blame at individual school leaders, parents, etc. Even the ones who are truly doing their best to fix things are just slightly more powerful actors within a system that restricts their range of "choices" in a huge way. I mean, what can administrators, even like-minded ones acting in accord (good joke), do about the fact that their school district is full of low-income families who don't have the resources to prepare their kids for a good education? Should we be mad at the parents of a child who doesn't read well and gets frustrated with reading bc they literally didn't have the time to read to her due to working 2-3 jobs to make ends meet during their upbringing?? Hypothetical, i know, but i've seen it literally hundreds of times. These problems blossom out in poor communities of ALL stripes - most of my experience was with poor white students and all of these issues were rampant. The soft racism that asian americans achieve better because of some ineffable racial difference is, well, racist - and of course implies that other communities are inferior. I agree though that "sytemic racism" is not a very well-used concept - liberals tend to use it to, with a wave of the hand, *decouple* racial disparities from the (mostly economic) processes that *generate* them. even MLK, toward the end of his life, spoke on how economics is the mechanism by which race the Ideology is turned into race the Structure, the material reality. Can't remember what happened to him next

[@narendra62]

You seem to have missed the point. Mr Xu quite rightly points to the children of Asian immigrants who's parents also face major issues of poverty. And may not even speak English. These kids quite often do well because they have a desire. They are also more satisfying for the teachers because they can see progress. The US spends a lot of money on educating African American kids with little to show for it. This is not a new problem. Education is hard if you don't enjoy it or see value in it. I myself, 50 years ago was an Asian immigrant in a failing inner city school full of unruly black boys. Not a new problem.

[@drpepper23flavors]

The "(mostly economic) processes that generate racial disparities are generally what people are referring to when they talk about "systemic racism".

[@alexfung8766]

I would argue that Cultural Differences have a bigger impact on the disparity in work ethic and outcome than Systemic Racism.

[@alisonmcgillivray8008]

I substitute teach at high schools in Ontario. It might surprise you to know that dollar for dollar Canadian students get less funding than students in the USA yet the Canadian system ranks # 8 in the world. (# 1 in both the English and French speaking worlds) I expect this is a testiment to the difference in distribution of our educational dollars. For example, we do NOT have Charter schools competiting for smarter students and more $$$$$. Instead, all schools sharing the funding for the educational benefit of all. ( yeah I know more evidence of that dreaded 'democratic socialism' at work but is does improve academic achievement, check the stats)

[@narendra62]

@@alisonmcgillivray8008 I'm pretty sure the cultural mix is the dominant factor. The charter schools are not necessarily selective. They are just outside the main education system. If the main education system is not working why not have alternatives.

[@gerardcote8391]

There is never a single issue or problem. People in government and academia have a reductionist world view, they believe everything has single causality. Correlation does not equal causality. Saying urban black schools are "failing", has no relation to the problem of racial discrimination by Harvard and Yale against East Asians. The failed black school systems, are generally in black dominated cities with black mayors, black city councils, black school boards, black school superintendents, and black teachers. There is no "white oppressors" involved in the entire system.

[@benjaminholm2311]

I think what Kenny is saying is that we have to treat everyone the same no matter what. Historic injustice is awful but it isn't remedied by lowering the bar. All that does is to discourage human striving. And constantly saying the problem is systemic is going to logically lead some minorities to throw up their hands and say what does it matter what I do, the system is going to stop me anyway? What a horrible incentive, and a perfect way to hold people down. Let's quit doing that.

[@michaelneufeld4515]

To me that sounds like you're saying that the truth of the matter is inconvenient, so let's all pretend it didn't happen? Or am I wrong

[@benjaminholm2311]

@@michaelneufeld4515 Truth of what matter? If you mean past injustice then no I don't mean ignore it. I'm saying don't act like it's controlling everything that's happening today. I'm saying that we acknowledge the past but focus on solutions that work today. Because we can never eradicate the evils of the past, and if we focus on them too much we're just going to create new wrongs.

[@darriennemartin4083]

Here’s the issue every time we have one of these discussions. It’s always talked about from the monolithic scale for every group. There is nuance within this and it’s not just a singular aspect you can blame. Kids from divorced parents tend to not earn above a high school diploma, men are less educated than women, and most immigrants perform better academically than Americans. It’s NOT just about a group valuing education more than others. There are real factors that affect every group but instead of trying to get to the bottom of it we immediately go to stereotypes and individualizing the problem when it’s a system that is failing for MOST people. You can’t have this conversation from JUST a racial perspective and I think Ryan did a great job of giving the pushback to an oversimplification of this issue

[@ArnoldSommerfeld]

A multivariate analysis will reveal that Xu is correct. Statistics is your friend, as is logic. Use them.

[@darriennemartin4083]

@@ArnoldSommerfeld I listed the statistics and it’s simply not a values issue…

[@ryanalexander5438]

Wouldn't it be cultural rather than racial?

[@darriennemartin4083]

@@ryanalexander5438 i was stating how the author discussed the issue in racial terms…as if black people don’t value education and that they’re only being advantaged over Asian students in diversity standards by these institutions. You can’t diminish the merit of others to show you meet the standards. It’s documented that Asian students are disadvantaged through university standards but that’s institutional failure not another group’s doing

[@keefdavis244]

Do a study using social media. And see who in america gets treated like what. And, the Journalist did more than "push back", he easily dismantled Xu.