Disputes on Christ: Nestorius and Cyril

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Ryan Reeves

Ryan Reeves

Күн бұрын

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@brianingram4709
@brianingram4709 7 жыл бұрын
The dispute between the Nestorian Church known today as the Assyrian Church of the East, was ended by the Common Christological Declaration between the Catholic Church and the Assyrian Church of the East which was signed on November 11, 1994, by Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Dinkha IV. Part of it reads "The Word of God, second Person of the Holy Trinity, became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit in assuming from the holy Virgin Mary a body animated by a rational soul, with which he was indissolubly united from the moment of his conception. Therefore our Lord Jesus Christ is true God and true man, perfect in his divinity and perfect in his humanity, consubstantial with the Father and consubstantial with us in all things but sin."
@andrewsuryali8540
@andrewsuryali8540 7 жыл бұрын
I think it bears mentioning that at one point in history (between the 10th and 13th centuries AD) the Nestorian Church actually grew to become the largest Christian denomination on Earth, stretching all the way from Syria to what is now the modern Chinese province of Guangdong and winning converts throughout the Turko-Mongol cultural sphere. Many members of Genghis Khan's family in his lifetime were Nestorian Christians. Even his former boss was. One major reason for this was the focus on simplifying the explanations for the Mysteries of the Christian faith started by Nestorius (Christology was not the only place the Nestorians did this). However, this itself led to theological fragmentation within the church, which forced them to themselves push for theological clarity, which in turn is probably why the teachings of the modern Assyrian Church of the East is now closer to Chalcedonian Christianity.
@steveb5189
@steveb5189 8 жыл бұрын
Dr Reeves, thank you for this awesome set of resources on church history. I especially admire your efforts to add some playful tones and light-hearted asides to what could be dense subject matter. Love the graphics and art work as well. A brother in Christ.
@maxcurare7407
@maxcurare7407 8 жыл бұрын
really thank you for your excellent job. I am actually studying the history of the Church in a theological scool and having three children of small age it is almost impossible to read. But with your work even if I cannot concentrate 100% I still leran a lot. please keep on doing this excellent job
@AssyrianEasternOrthodox
@AssyrianEasternOrthodox 8 жыл бұрын
Eastern Orthodoxy believe in hypostatic union. Meaning, the combination of divine and human natures in the single person of Christ. Christ was 100% God and 100% Man in the single person of Christ. Nestorianism believes that Christ was 2 person 100% God and 100% Man.
@historybuff1863va
@historybuff1863va 8 жыл бұрын
Thanks Dr. Reeves for keeping the main issue on the main issue...without the Jesus of the Bible, fully God and fully man, there can be no salvation for fallen creatures.
@taylorkroll8209
@taylorkroll8209 8 жыл бұрын
the sent is not the sender
@BackToOrthodoxy
@BackToOrthodoxy 8 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this channel! I have been sharing it with friends. Love this
@timarmstrong6520
@timarmstrong6520 9 жыл бұрын
A practical ministry question - In your lectures you talk negatively (at 7:30) about the Sunday school portrayal of Jesus as 100% God + 100% Man = 100%, and that this is a bad explanation, which I get (although I confess I have used it before). As a person who works with kids from elementary up through High School I was wondering if you can share a more appropriate analogy? Or would you simply emphasize the mystery aspect of the incarnation and not try to use an oversimplified analogy? I am very much enjoying this series and the Lewis and Tolkien series. Thanks so much!
@RyanReevesM
@RyanReevesM 9 жыл бұрын
+Tim Armstrong // Hey Tim. Sorry if that sounded negative. I am actually very much in favor or using certain simple, concrete examples for younger folks. I always tell my students 'you have to tell children simple statements they can understand; the problem is when they still think this way when they're adults'. So my little snark here about 100%, etc. was more that we shouldn't let our thinking on it remain merely at that level. If I were teaching it I would not go with a math formula, though--at least not personally. That makes it sound like a logical deduction or simply a foolish illogical conclusion. I tend to go more with the two teachings of scripture: God had to come down to save, yet he had to be like us in every way to be our substitute. In the early church they tend to go more with this central focus: both are taught and both are necessary, so we simply affirm both and try not to explain it in great detail. I also like to say this is one of the doctrines where we don't get to see the "inside of it". We are describing the witness of scripture, not our personally experience, so our language will always feel weak.
@cosmonaute
@cosmonaute 6 жыл бұрын
uuuh i loved this so much.......... thanks doc!
@amjedabdeljelil9038
@amjedabdeljelil9038 8 жыл бұрын
Can someone tell me where the Jewish teaching was, when Arius was fighting his position, that God is one and he ( God) doesn't share with anyone? and that God is the creator and everything else is creation. The Jewish teaching the essence and the first message from God to his creation. And how come Noah, Ibrahim, David, Jacob, Moses..etc never heard that God is actually 3 in 1. Did Arius ever used these argument? Thank you.
@sfappetrupavelandrei
@sfappetrupavelandrei 7 жыл бұрын
I'm not very familiar with Old Testament but the reason God didn't discover Himself as being 3 in 1, is that in those times people weren't capable of understanding. Humanity was still struggling with polytheism. You know how hard was for God to keep His chosen people to worship one God. If He would try to explain the dogma to the Jewish people, they would probably worship 3 gods. Read also in the Gospel how Jesus presents each Person of the Holy Trinity. He is pretty vague (when He said that He is son of God the Jewish priests were horrified) and it needed another 300 years of Christianity to have a clear dogma about the Holy Trinity.
@starboy0
@starboy0 7 жыл бұрын
Dr. Reeves. Love the videos. After watching a few of these I'm wondering if the following could characterize the Christological position of the 3 groups or at least how they were perceived initially. Nestorian -> Two physis. Oriental Orthodox -> One physis. Orthodox/Catholic/Protestant - > Two physis, one hypostasis.
@petrusveritas2385
@petrusveritas2385 7 жыл бұрын
Dear Dr. Reeves Thank you for your lectures. I tried before to find an email to contact you directly but was not successful. I have been researching connecting the puzzles and have few questions regarding the development of Nestorians though the Middle East. Do you believe the Nestorians's Theology end up developing amongst the Saracens what we know nowadays to be Islam? I have more facts regarding this points but rather have your opinion first to continue my research. I'm kind of stuck at the moment regarding my research. There is few people on the internet pointing few things but lacks academic background. Thank you Sir Kind Regards Peter London - 🇬🇧
@RyanReevesM
@RyanReevesM 7 жыл бұрын
Hey there! Sorry I missed the email. It likely came during one of the crazy seasons of life that I've had lately! Thankfully, I'm al back now! I think (speaking only personally, not based on research) there are some connections between Islam and Nestorianism, but the ideas are refracted through a lot of various ideas and popular language in that day. Shoot me another email and I'd love to chat about this if I can help'1
@petrusveritas2385
@petrusveritas2385 7 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much Dr. Reeves It's indeed a pleasure having your response. It will be great to share some information and exchange the motives and whys for this research. Thank you Best Regards Peter Here is my email address follows: peterlombardibr@gmail.com
@petrusveritas2385
@petrusveritas2385 7 жыл бұрын
Dear Dr. Reeves, The most reliable Islamic sources and most acceptable by the majority of the scholars of the Islamic world agreed and have a major consensus regarding the the story of " Waraqa Ibn Nawfal " the paternal uncle of Mohammad's first wife. I don't want to extend too much on the Islamic sources which is a different subject itself but can assure the stories are questionable from right there from the beginning but please allow me to demonstrate my thoughts quoting the most reliable source of authority of the Islamic world: Narrated 'Aisha: Sahih Bukhari volume 4, Book 55, Number 605: "..The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Nawfal ( who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospel in Arabic ) Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly." In some Islamic sources some stories tend to change with no form of reliable authenticity from a biographical perspective, that's the reason why had to quote directly from the Islamic sources to avoid hysteria from muslims. After the council decisions of Heresy, Nestorious had to go away deeper and find some comfort to start his mission. In some Islamic books the stories can be different regarding " Waraqa " who was a Christian Monk in the first place living in 6th Century Arabia well settled and with the purpose to evangelise the pagan arabs from Makka. On the other hand it's the story quoted above. The Hadith mentions that Waraqa used to read the Bible in Arabic Language but my sources don't point an existent bible in the 6th Century been already translated fully and completed in Arabic Language. My conclusion was simply that some of the Nestorious followers knew Greek and Latin and they were translating themselves biblical passages and reciting into the pagan arabs. There is no conclusive evidence from the Islamic sources pointing in fact that " Waraqa " was a " Nestorian " but following the route of Nestorious himself indicates the probability is " almost "accurate. I personally think Waraqa was undoubtably Nestorian though his actions and their views on the divinity of Christ. Ironically the first person to " recognised " signs of Prophethood in Mohammad was a Christian Heretic. Thank you Dr. Reeves Regards Peter
@BornAgainRN
@BornAgainRN 7 жыл бұрын
+Ryan Reeves...I know a lot of evangelicals don't like using the term "Mary the Mother of God," because the Catholic church has used that over the centuries to elevate her unbiblically to "Queen of Heaven." Plus, since God is not limited to the Son, but also the Father & the Holy Spirit, & they are indivisible, the term "Mother of God" almost sounds like Mary gave birth to the Father & the Holy Spirit too. Would the term "Mother of God the Son" have been a more precise term? Thanks!
@sfappetrupavelandrei
@sfappetrupavelandrei 7 жыл бұрын
+BornAgainRN: Sorry to barge in but I think the answer would be NO. When you specify "God the Son", most of the Catholic and Orthodox Christians would think at the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (and not Jesus). Calling Mother of God with the name "Mother of God the Son" you actually call Her as the Mother of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity which brings Her at the same level as God The Father. When we say Mother of God we focus at the godly nature of Jesus (where Jesus is true God and true man). So for me, as an Eastern Orthodox Christian, would be a blasphemy to call Mother of God with the name "Mother of God the Son".
@robertrecchia2642
@robertrecchia2642 9 жыл бұрын
Ryan, do you find it curious that the term spirit with a capital "S" referring to the Holy Spirit is listed 166 times in the King James & 333 times in the New King James. One could get the impression that the New King James "translators" had a secondary agenda other than creating a more modern version of the King James Bible. Isaiah 11:2 is just one of numerous examples where the word spirt with a small "s" is later capitalized in the NKJ for no other reason than to push a trinitarian doctrine in complete violation of textual context. The Trinity on "steroids" to coin your term.
@ElasticGiraffe
@ElasticGiraffe 9 жыл бұрын
Physis means nature, not person. Was that a mistake? In Greek the word we translate as "person" is hypostasis. Chalcedonian christology is dyophysite, two natures affirmed in a hypostatic union. Nestorius was an heir of Theodore's problematic "Two Sons" christology, but he was also painfully bad at defending his position, anal retentive about language, and constantly alienating his allies. Theodoret of Cyrrhus is a great example, but the emperor as well. Though Cyril might have been a scoundrel, he was a brilliantly articulate theologian and a savvy politician. He knew exactly which strings to pull to take Nestorius out. It's such a tragic story, regardless of which patriarch had the more correct theology. Theodore's posthumous condemnation at II Constantinople just added extreme insult to an already extreme injury.
@ElasticGiraffe
@ElasticGiraffe 9 жыл бұрын
If I may suggest a title for the "Further Reading" list, John McGuckin's book 'Saint Cyril of Alexandria and the Christological Controversy' is a very scholarly treatment of the subject.
@dariuswilkins4984
@dariuswilkins4984 8 жыл бұрын
Question: if God's reciprocation for original sin is the curse of dying, and Christ was sinless, then how could He have died? Or did He not die and was simply taken by up to heaven by God, as was the virgin mary according to Catholicism?
@dariuswilkins4984
@dariuswilkins4984 8 жыл бұрын
Sorry if that sounds uninformed, I have once recently been getting into theology
@aliewais7575
@aliewais7575 7 жыл бұрын
according to islam,jesus was never crossed,and was brought up to the skies.
@sfappetrupavelandrei
@sfappetrupavelandrei 7 жыл бұрын
+D Wilk: His human nature died. But because His human nature was united with His godly nature in one Person (but in the same time having the 2 natures separated), the evil was absorbed be His godly nature. There is a word of Saint John the Chrysostom recited every Easter: "..[Hades] It seized a body, and Io! it discovered God; it seized earth, and, behold! it encountered heaven; it seized the visible, and was overcome by the invisible."
@adeedas
@adeedas 7 жыл бұрын
+D Wilk: I think your question is legitimate because Scripture actually says sin leads to death. However the old testament prophet Isaiah pointed out in chapter 53 that the Messiah (the "Arm of the LORD") would die carrying the sins of "God's people" and "us all" while himself being without sin. He would save the many by "pouring out his life unto death". This is THE passage about God's plan of salvation in Jesus.
@jenna2431
@jenna2431 9 жыл бұрын
3:00 Constantinople needs the second "T." It seems to me that an awful lot of people did (and do) an awful lot of talking about Yahshua and YHVH and not enough time being discipled by Them. When you get all bound up in the Western way of thinking about this, you get lost. And when you start fighting about stuff that's not even in Scripture to start with, then you're already off the rails.
@RyanReevesM
@RyanReevesM 9 жыл бұрын
Good typo catch (again). I'll add it to the list of edits. And I think it's a bit too premature to judge the discipleship of these people given that the lecture only discusses one set of controversies. It's not as if their entire lives were devoted to this. And besides, the context of discipleship is based of what you believe about Christ (God or not) and what you believe he came to do. The fact that there were four main doctrinal councils in the span of 450 years in order to deal with popular misunderstandings of God and salvation is not what I would call 'excessive' or based on something western. (I'll point out that all 4 of the councils took place in the East, too.) The Bible does talk about if Jesus is God and if he was 'like us in every way', and if he was the 'second Adam'. The point of the councils is to double down on just what scripture says and to reject people who are adding or taking things away.
@janwoG
@janwoG 7 жыл бұрын
The person of Jesus has two natures the Divine and the human in a hypostatic union. Before dying on the cross this union break down as one can interpret from his expressing Eloi Eoli Lama Sabachthani in order Jesus able to die. The Divine abandoned Jesus because the Divine as Absolute cannot die. But this breaking of the hypostasis is the absolute sacrifice which saved us. At the resurrection, this hypostasis has been restored for ever.
@pxengine
@pxengine 8 жыл бұрын
It seems that the "heretics" like Arius, Marcion, and Nestorius, had logical, reasonable answers to questions that people posed; but the Church establishment's line was always: "It's a mystery, we can't give you an answer, you're just going to have to take our word for it."
@lukacsnemeth1652
@lukacsnemeth1652 7 жыл бұрын
Almost as if they purposefully adopt mutually exclusive axioms, so they can prove everything, and the opposite... Ohh wait!
@EMan-cf8lv
@EMan-cf8lv 7 жыл бұрын
pxengine it's not the like the council invented the triune nature of God. The Bible itself seems to teach that. Passages such as John 1:3 "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made", if Jesus is a creature then this passage is a lie. If Jesus is a created being then Revelation 5 shouldn't be in the Bible because all of creation is worshiping the Lamb and that shows deity and oneness with the Father as John 1:1 highlights. Also, Hebrews 1:6 shows all of the angels of God worshiping the Son and that would be blasphemy unless the passage is showing that the Father and the Son are one.
@EMan-cf8lv
@EMan-cf8lv 7 жыл бұрын
TheMaster100 the Bible teaches the triune nature of God. John 1:3 attributes creation through Christ and that puts him outside of creating beings. In fact, Arius was right then the Bible has to be wrong. Because, by Arius teaching Christ would have to somehow have been there and not there with the Father.
@seg162
@seg162 7 жыл бұрын
Well, A) it was more "this is what we've been taught", B) these weren't questions, but rather assertions, and C) people who defended orthodoxy did more than "it's a mystery, we can't give you an answer". There's five books of refutations on Marcionism by Tertullian, and Athanasius had been writing about the Incarnation since his deacon days.
@thothheartmaat2833
@thothheartmaat2833 7 жыл бұрын
doesn't everyone say I? I and I... why would anyone think Jesus is the one and only god? isn't it possible he was inspired by the early monastics and people like the hare Krishnas? he began speaking and no one understood what he was talking about? can't anyone come to the same understanding Jesus supposedly did? If one studies all the religions then don't they gain a whole understanding? aren't we all divine? isn't everything divine? learn some Hinduism.. Christians just seem like ignorant and persecutory people... so quick to judge and so short to learn. are you the judge god or are you a disciple? do you know everything or nothing? aren't we all supposed to have the holy spirit? why don't we just teach about the dangers of constantly persecuting each other? which is what Jesus was saying.. it's right there in the book if anyone cares to actually read it. there's so much politicking and talking about Jesus or the church or the people who believe in Jesus or worshipping Jesus. how about the actual message of Jesus that he supposedly delivered..
@sfappetrupavelandrei
@sfappetrupavelandrei 7 жыл бұрын
The actual message Jesus delivered is that He is God and He came on Earth to save humanity. We, Christians, believe that all the other religions which may seem as an inspiration for Christ represent some remaining knowledge Adam had while being in Paradise and/or knowledge some people achieved by their own effort to understand their purpose in the world. But all these knowledges may have their own mistakes and Christ is the one who gave us the ultimate knowledge (complete and with no mistakes) and sent us the Holy Spirit to protect His Church from losing the Truth.
@thothheartmaat2833
@thothheartmaat2833 7 жыл бұрын
sfappetrupavelandrei i read something that said Jesus may have been an essene
@sfappetrupavelandrei
@sfappetrupavelandrei 7 жыл бұрын
And there are people who say Christ are some guy who went to India, etc. The thing is: what do you choose to believe? I choose to believe what the Church says about Him.
@thothheartmaat2833
@thothheartmaat2833 7 жыл бұрын
sfappetrupavelandrei it says Jesus grew up speaking to elders so to understand who he was we would need to look at the people of the time who may have been in the area and talked about similar things he talked about. there are actually astonishing amounts of records from that time in history. many details are known about a great many people including events they were at and the ways they reacted to specific situations. that part of the world was the key crossing for many global trade routes and the land of every historical empire. Jesus was likely influenced by many people of many different backgrounds from all walks of life. being the son of a carpenter probably worked with and met people from all different social castes. he probably had to learn to live among and around all of them. he could have travelled anywhere in the world from where he lived. could have served in the military or been a slave or got caught up in any sort of adventure imaginable. was most likely influenced by judeism, Hinduism, Greek religions, other paganism and had to compensate for everything he heard about and formed his identity from all of that.
@akbarmuslim4565
@akbarmuslim4565 7 жыл бұрын
look up iconoclasm in the Byzantine Roman Empire the true seat of Christianity ...
@kelsinrolle9334
@kelsinrolle9334 8 жыл бұрын
all the people are black in these art work. hmmmm, very fishy
@RyanReevesM
@RyanReevesM 8 жыл бұрын
+kelsin rolle // This is what you would expect from a faith based in the East and Africa for most of its early history. :)
@kelsinrolle9334
@kelsinrolle9334 8 жыл бұрын
ok . thank you. but this is hardly known in the westernized world . but i guess that just the way it is
@akbarmuslim4565
@akbarmuslim4565 7 жыл бұрын
the Coptic Egyptian priests were forced to create a God in the image of the European
@sfappetrupavelandrei
@sfappetrupavelandrei 7 жыл бұрын
Really? It is very odd for me to hear this as long as the Coptics separated from the Byzantine Roman Empire after the IV-th Ecumenical Council (V-th century) and the icons theology was discussed during VIII-IX centuries.
@akbarmuslim4565
@akbarmuslim4565 7 жыл бұрын
Sirapis Christos made in the image of Ptolemy l soter aka saviour given that title after he shave celucus necator one of his fellow dioduchi Kings after he was usurped ...
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