S01E10 Part 1 Hawker Typhoon Propeller Investigation

[@whotknots]

Greetings Ian. I am Australian and have maintained a passionate interest in all aviation related subjects since I was a small boy. While undergoing pilot training in Australia during the 1970's I discovered someone renovating a spitfire with the intention of returning it to engine run and taxi status. The project was housed in a small, ancient, dilapidated and innocuous looking corrugated iron building on the airfield where I was training. Being only 30 odd years since the end of WWII at that time all sorts of older aircraft and war surplus was still reasonably available and one bloke had a twin row Wasp mounted in a maintenance frame on castors for sale. From memory the asking price was something like $2,500 and that engine had several very large fuel pumps, I recall thinking what a phenomenal fuel flow it must have required! I also recall a section of the building housing the Spitfire project was segregated and one day I looked through a grimy window and saw a semi disassembled fabric covered aircraft which looked as though it was probably an Auster! All that is undoubtedly long gone now, however I recently had the privilege of accompanying a friend to visit a retired RAAF maintenance engineer who owns a private airstrip along with a Piper Traveler and a couple of tiger moths. There was also a very dilapidated but completely intact Tiger residing in an annex to the main hangar and when I enquired about it our host told me the old machine had been virtually given to him provided he was willing to remove it from the shed on a farm where it had long resided! Obviously some special old gems are still out there languishing in the most improbable locations and I live in hope I will catch wind of an engine or parts of one of use to your project one day. Anyway I digress, the Spitfire I mentioned was being renovated with parts salvaged from all over the Pacific including creation of one wing from the front and rear halves of two separate wings acquired from a dump at separate disused wartime airstrips on small islands. From that time onward I dropped by occasionally to follow progress and do odd jobs such as filing the dome off conventional pop-rivets to make them look like proper flush rivets and fairing the result with automotive body filler etc. During one such visit I found the owner of the Spitfire examining a disassembled propeller with badly damaged metal blades which naturally interested me. As a result of my curiosity I was shown a series of photographs depicting the propeller being salvaged from a swamp near the city of Darwin in the Northern Territory of Australia where it had apparently lain since a Spitfire had crashed there during the war. I was then shown the disassembled hub of the propeller which had apparently still been full of oil when salvaged and so was in pristine condition. From memory a large bearing within the hub bore an alpha-numeric sequence lightly inscribed on the outer shell with some sort of Dremel tool or similar method. The owner said he had provided a copy of the inscription to an organization in England which had been able to tell him that the sequence was the identification number for an employee at the works when the propeller had been assembled. That information had enabled my acquaintance to determine which Spitfire the propeller was installed on when the aircraft in question was shot down! Your description of the serial numbers inscribed on the hub-dome you possess evoked many memories and considerable speculation for me! With regard to engines I also recall reading a book titled 'The Big Show' by free French fighter ace Pierre Clostermann who flew Napier engined Tempests during the latter half of the war. During that period in his narrative Clostermann describes a number of Tempest crashes and I wonder if any of his descriptions might enable someone to locate further engines or components for you? Thanks for some really interesting content!

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

It is quite impressive to find internal component in "like new" condition. Maybe not a situation that happens often anymore, but we've got to take it when we can get it leaving no stone un-turned. Unfortunately the recovery of crash sites is becoming increasingly difficult due to new laws being implemented throughout many European countries; most of our efforts to find parts fro reverse engineering relate to finding those who have made such recoveries in the past.

[@philbosworth3789]

Thank-you for making these longer videos available to everyone. Much appreciated.

[@davidlawrencebanks4610]

I could listen to you all day, carry on dude I'm routing for you and the project

[@williamkennedy5492]

My first overtime as a 17 year old was stripping down a Bristol Proteus Prop with a DH technician so watcing your video is a trip down memory lane, our prop came apart easil,y now at 70 its refreshing to see you work, i am envious. Many years ago i heard a story by a market stall holder in Leek Staffordshire UK, after the war there was so much surplus a farmer bought up hundreds of prop blades and used them as fence posts , it was indicated to me perhaps North of Leek. I wonder what else is out there or in grandpa"s shed ? The church in Leek also lists aircrews and aircraft lost in the area, even a Ju 88 and its crew succumbed to gravity ! My thanks for the video, Cheshire England UK

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Hello William, I may have actually seen an image of that fence, or one like it! Some very interesting parts still turn up from time to time, we are certainly keeping our fingers crossed for more Typhoon and Sabre parts out there! ~Ian

[@balsumfractus]

Man it was painful not to hit the “skip ads” button.......especially when one of the ads was 34 minutes long! I let it play in the background while I cleaned up my shop - knowing that the ad revenue was going to a good cause!

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

That's awesome, thank you so much! I know how hard it is, but it really does help. ~Ian

[@David-yo5ws]

I was told that you only need to let it run for over 11 seconds for the 'YT system' to register it as viewed and pay some of the ad money to the site? That may help you save some time IF it can be verified. You will notice the pre-trailers are 6 seconds longm which pays out nothing.

[@marcmasterson9365]

Hi Guys Can Not Wait Till U Get This Awesome Plane Flying Again. Keep It Up Stay Safe M. England.😊

[@wackowacko8931]

If you are looking to preserve stamped numbers in a housing, there are several dyes out there that may preserve or enhance stamped markings. If you are looking to find specific paint markings (or different layers of paint) or to find where a repair happened, a multi-spectral camera can allow you to see those types of things. They aren't too expensive, they are in the $200 and up range.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

That's interesting! Thank you for sharing that, before I go hunting, do you have any links to sources for both dyes and Cameras? ~Ian

[@wackowacko8931]

@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd I used to know a guy that used a multi-spectral camera to spot previous repair work in a body shop for a dealer, that is why I knew about it. I don't know what specific camera they used. And the reason I knew about the dye is that law enforcement uses it to spot serial numbers in guns where the serial number has been ground off, because the stamping of the serial number leaves a deep impression in the metal where the metal has been compressed. I'll do some research and see if I can't get some more specific information for you.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

@@wackowacko8931 Very cool, thank you! ~Ian

[@fw1421]

When I was going to A&P school we had a rep from Kano the people that make Aerokroil give a demonstration of Kroil and it’s properties. It’s a very good product. Great penetrating oil. I’ve been using it for lots of purposes since 1991.

[@karlharrison2449]

Fantastic stuff.

[@lesterbeedell9725]

I have several prop hub components which came from a Hurricane which crashed in Poole harbour all the alloy pieces had disappeared but the pitch changing mechanism is perfectly preserved, it was totally encased in something akin to white cheese which seems to have preserved all the steel pieces

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

The brave blades sacrificed themselves for the future of the steel! ~Ian

[@b-17wingman37]

Ya ! I have used atf/ acetone mix before.Seemed to work ok. Like you said , you have to be careful because it is more volatile. I use PB blaster for heavy stuff myself.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

I really wasn't overly impressed with it, but it did work. I've used PB blaster and found that it's very good; the one limiting factor of it's use is that it can really smell up the shop! we're using a 5 way penetrant made by 3M now, works great! ~Ian

[@michaelgillett5477]

It’s interesting hearing your lubricant situation at the moment we are taking 475 hp Sunbeam engine apart from a land speed car and the engines haven’t been run shit so relax run at Brooklyn’s before the war and there somewhat seized up and it’s rather interesting hearing your problems very similar to ours Find your KZbin very interesting and it’s good to have people interested in the same sort of thing thank you very much Michael

[@nickprosser83]

Have a look into feed grade molasses and water as a de rusting agent. No idea how it would fare with aluminium but it might be an avenue worth persuing. The very best of luck with your restoration

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Thank you Nick, I did try some on a few steel parts with decent results, the smell is tough to deal with though! ~Ian

[@toboldlygosmodelworks1973]

The three blade props are huge, compared to four blade fitted to the Tiffs! Also as far as I know the original (early batch) Tiffy's had a shorter tail and rudder as well. The later tail empernage mods came from the Tempest production line - hence they called them a Tempest Tail (another ideocracy of Hawker's designer's) .

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Both 3 and 4 blade props fitted to the Typhoon were 14 feet in diameter. The "Tempest Tail" refers to the horizontal stabilizers only, these were the same spars as the early Typhoon versions, but with extended nose ribs and wingtips to increase area. With the exception of the first Tempest, Tempests were fitted with a completely different fin than the Typhoon, this was never fitted to Typhoons. The Rudder was similar, but extended upwards on the Tempest, this was done to coincide with the taller fin. Some of our earlier videos cover these differences. ~Ian

[@toboldlygosmodelworks1973]

@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd I've heard or read it somewhere at either Kingston or Dunsfold - that the original 3 blade fitted was 16'8", but it caused handling & engine problems hence the prop diameter was reduced and the tail fin height increased and later the fuselage being reinforced at the transport joint. The horizontal stabilisers were designed to be changed in the field. I think that's where the Tempest Tail analogy comes from and (knowing Hawkers) the mounting points on the fuselage for the horizontal stabilizers are in the same place. A bit of useless info, from the original P.1127 to the last of the Harrier 1's - the engine/wing and tail empernage mounts are all in the same place (as they were fixed mounting pointing's on the jigs). Though BAE Systems have now confused things even further by name the 6 Gen Multirole Combat Aircraft they are developing the Tempest and of course there's Eurofighter Typhoon (which upset the Germans).

[@cf6282]

Good info! Nice hoody too!

[@briancavanagh7048]

I’ve used the 50/50 acetone &ATF on car projects.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

It seems to work quite well, I will continue to play with the mixture ratios I think. ~Ian

[@pjchris90]

Looking at at the way the spinner was held on to the spider must have been a real challenge to the mechanics in the dusty temporary airfields in France.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

The spinner would have been relatively easy to remove, it gets attached to the prop back plate. ~Ian

[@pylon500]

Just thinking about your dome nut and where you were thinking 'ultra' sonic vibration to loosen, had you thought of 'low' sonic vibration, ie; using a flat snap on a pneumatic rivet gun, I'd fill the nut groove with your 'penetrant', then just run the rivet gun around, and around the outside and see if it loosens the thread. Obviously don't use enough force to start 'expanding' the hub, just enough to send shockwaves through it. (Retired aircraft sheet metal worker)

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

For sure, its been done several times already; will just keep going through the cycle; no rush on this one. -Ian

[@garynew9637]

Thought some heat on the alloy prop spigot would have made for easier removal.

[@Daniel-S1]

At school, here in England, a long time ago, what you call 'peck drilling' I was taught was called 'chain drilling'.

[@neilmchardy9061]

Chain drilling is a means of cutting a piece of material, peck drilling is the removal of surface material. (Time served engineer)

[@PeterEmery]

I had heard that the 50:50 mix of acetone & automatic transmission fluid was unsuitable for storing/dispensing in plastic vessels.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

I would imagine that it could soften some plastic, we use chemical resistant bottles, hopefully that does the trick, no issues here. ~Ian

[@graemebrumfitt6668]

With you on the gloves Ian. TFS, G :)

[@scheusselmensch5713]

I''ve lately heard that gasoline storage stabilizer works very well as a de-seizing liquid.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Very interesting, I've not heard that one. Do you have any additional details on this ? Ian

[@wackowacko8931]

Most gas stabilizing liquids are methyl alcohol with a few other ingredients. The alcohol absorbs water, turning it into a mostly inert compound for a fuel system. The alcohol might be good at getting inside a corroded part, but may not introduce any lubrication. Acetone and ATF is usually the best compound for penetrating and lubricating a part.

[@oldtugs]

Consider using beeswax as a penetrating oil. Heat the area and let the wax melt into the joints. It will not evaporate but with heat it reaches further than petroleum based products.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

That's a new one to me, it doesn't seem to thin down as much as other products would; I'll have to give that a shot to see how well it will work into some crusty old joints! ~Ian

[@jacquesbrisson7374]

Hello Ian, would be nice To have a quick view of your Sabre Napier engine... your doing good Work, 👍

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Thank you Jacques, I hope to do one in the nearest future. -Ian

[@balsumfractus]

There are some pics of it in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mGeoe5Sboc10qpI

[@HighFlight]

You talk about the original Aluminium/Duralumin blade material and explain that the way forward will be to use a 'composite' material. What will the 'composite' be made of?

[@stewartgrant9832]

Same method as Spitfire prop. Wood essentially. Laminated.

[@HighFlight]

@@stewartgrant9832 Thanks.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

As Stewart mentioned the "composite" blades are typically of a wood laminate construction. ~Ian

[@HighFlight]

@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Thanks Ian. Wood laminate will certainly be easier and cheaper to reproduce and help prevent engine damage in the event of a 'ground strike'. Thanks also for your really interesting films and for allowing others to watch your project as a whole. It looked hard work getting the remains of that prop off of that 'spider'. Well done.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

@@HighFlight Thank you! ~Ian

[@matthewq4b]

The Acetone and ATF mix should use Type F ATF for the mix. Type F is more soluble in the acetone and has a much more aggressive additive package that will creep and dissolve crud better than say Dexron or its derivatives.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Great tip, thank you very much Matthew! ~Ian

[@russelleames5970]

Hi Ian. You mentioned a Halifax project? Can you put a link up for us who are curious please? Also, where can we find more info about JP's history? Where she crashed? How she was found and excavated etc? 🙂

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Hi Russell, the most up to date page for the Halifax project is fundrazr.com/profiles/halifax-57-rescue-canada For a bit more information on JP843 and her history, there are some details on our website www.typhoonlegacy.com and also on our paid subscription forums typhoonlegacy.vhx.tv/ ~Ian

[@russelleames5970]

@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd thankyou Ian 🤠

[@Majesticflyer]

Great Work as always Ian. We call that “chain drilling” in the UK. Have you spoke with Hamilton Standard about prop blades?. I used to work on a turboprop with similar horsepower levels to your Napier Sabre and one of their props. They may have something almost “off the shelf” for JP843?

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

HS did make LH rotation blades for some early aircraft, but in very small numbers. Unfortunately there is no "off the shelf" option for this one. ~Ian

[@Majesticflyer]

@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd best of luck. It’s a terrific project.

[@normanfawley7379]

Fascinating ! And educational.Now a subscriber,how can I find out about the aircraft and your quest to restore this amazing flying machine.Best wishes to you.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Great to have you following along with us! KZbin is our best free option for information on the rebuild, we also have a facebook page ( facebook.com/hawkertyphoonjp843 ) a web page with some information ( www.typhoonlegacy.com ) and a subscription video channel ( typhoonlegacy.vhx.tv/ ) which has forums and extra information. All proceeds from the subscriptions go directly towards the airworthy rebuild of JP843. ~Ian

[@flyingfree2229]

I believe they also used cut down Hastings propeller blades

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

The Hastings was similar but a 4 blade prop built after the Typhoons main service. We have a Hastings spinner here, but they are slightly different too. MN235 is fitted with a Hastings spinner as well, you can see that it is quite a bit longer than the Typhoon's "natural" spinner. ~Ian

[@billkahl1147]

What is the large disc of metal to the left, as it appears on the video, of the prop hub? I notice that your audio seems to be low volume even with my PC volume turned up all the way. Is there some way to increase the volume on your end?

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

The disc is a piece of 6" diameter steel stock that I've bored for holding a rivet set and "back riveting", I also use it as an anvil when needed, and simply as a weight; very helpful! I will look at the audio, this is the first I've heard of the issue. ~Ian

[@nickjung7394]

Another excellent video. Thanks! Since aluminium expands more than steel, would heating the spider in an oven help?

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

That would certainly help; the torch is something that was used here, but not shown too much in the video. ~Ian

[@anthonywilson4873]

I wonder if the sliding canopy will catch on, you must have better visibility out of a bubble canopy? Oh yea everybody. I wonder who developed the bubble canopy.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Hawker was the first! ~Ian

[@samrodian919]

Not being funny Ian but why not sick that on a milling machine and just mill a big slot from the base out towards the tip down to the bushing, then on the smaller diameter do the same again then cock the unit on an angle to coincide with the tapered part and you would save yourself a ton of time to get that prop root off of the spider.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

I went this route due to the shape; there is quite an uneven profile to it, so the best way to complete that setup would have been to chuck it in a dividing head; unfortunately at that time we didn't have one large enough. ~Ian

[@samrodian919]

@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Good enough reason Ian cheers from the UK, and have a great Christmas and new year mate to you and yours.

[@neilmchardy9061]

You talk about a composite blade do you mean carbon fibre and what have you? Another question is what is your projected time scale on this project?

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

The "Composite" blades are typically laminated wood. With a project of this scale it is very difficult to commit to a timeline. This is not due to the amount of work, but due to the scattered data, parts and other resources required to complete it. Will work hard to complete as soon as possible, but I feel a committed timeline on an aircraft that has not been worked on since thee 1940's would be foolish. Almost every main component of the Typhoon is unique and requires very thorough research to return to airworthness. ~Ian

[@Araye]

Why would you choose to preserve the tail geometry (and it sounds like the small tail was a big issue) because you want to build her as she was, but change the prop to composite which never flew on any Typhoon?

[@christianbuczko1481]

It will look wrong if the shape is altered, changing matarials will not be visable and if it preserves that rare engine, its worth it.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

There were no issues with the small tail at all, our earlier videos explain this in greater detail. The prop will be identical to the original in appearance. ~Ian

[@gfo8755]

Ian. When inspecting a part, how do you decide if any corrosion is acceptable or when does it need to be replaced. What parameters do you use?

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

It really depends on the part and the tolerances for repair given by the manufacturer. These parts are well beyond airworthy limits. ~Ian

[@gfo8755]

@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Thanks Ian. I was thinking about the wing spar spacers and stuff like that. I just put it in the wrong place.... Amazing work sir, I love it.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

@@gfo8755, In cases like the spacers, I would look at them with a fairly general inspection of max reduction of 10% of the material thickness once the damaged is removed. The damage must be removed in a certain breadth as it relates to the depth as well, so as not to have spots for stress to concentrate. ~Ian

[@jamesdeath3477]

The hub and motor came from salt water? I´m amazed that any of it would be fit to use...or are you planning to reverse engineer everything?

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

These are not suitable for use, they will likely be used for a static display, or at the very best (if they are reasonable) a ground running engine. ~Ian

[@jamesdeath3477]

@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Cool, thank you.

[@andrerousseau5730]

Won't the Acetone degrade/destroy non-metallic seals? Sure, you won't be wanting to re-use them but you may need them to correctly size and procure modern replacements.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

It likely would in a stronger mix held in place for a long period of time; there was no effect on these seals. ~Ian

[@andrerousseau5730]

Hi Ian, if you use the standard transmission fluid (DEX III) it will attack the insulative varnishes on electrical components whereas the recommended fluid (TQ95) doesn't contain that reactive compound. @@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

@@andrerousseau5730 Very interesting, thanks for that information Andre! ~Ian

[@andrerousseau5730]

@@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd Further afterthought/suggestion: you briefly alluded to immersion in an ultrasonic bath. If you want to pursue that idea, contact siliconchip.com.au who have published several construction articles on high-power units, the two that come to mind are the boat anti-fouling unit and the straight-out cleaner unit. They also sell the circuit boards and parts kits.

[@oxcart4172]

U have an engine now??🤤🤤

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

We have one crash recovered Sabre right now yes, hopefully more soon! ~Ian

[@jasongrady1278]

Have you tried ACF50

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Not as a penetrant, although it does a great job at making Cherry rivets fret on sea planes! ~Ian

[@downwindchecklist6567]

I am just watching this other video (kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKemnoR3mtmsl8k) and thinking of you. I suppose you will have to go through something similar at some point. Keep it up!

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

We certainly will, the three blade props used on the Typhoon are quite rare, so we are always looking for more parts. The Halifax and Stirling bomber use the same hub. ~Ian

[@zambotv8150]

Acetone eats rubber

[@lewisparker4488]

Did you try heating it?

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

There was lots of heat used, might not see the torch until part two though. ~Ian

[@lotuselanplus2s]

Boil some ATF and submerge the parts in it for a while.

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Ah yeas, heat and penetrating oil all in one! ~Ian

[@outlawflyer7868]

Cool but you got your videos mixed up

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Could you provide more details please? ~Ian

[@matthewpayne42]

First.

[@brianfriday1422]

Why not use an impact hammer and chisel

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

Please watch both parts of this episode. ~Ian

[@philup4947]

Way to much talking and not enough doing

[@TyphoonLegacyCoLtd]

The information is an important part of the project. Check out episode 2 for more "doing" ~Ian

[@David-yo5ws]

You would not last long on a restoration project of this magnitude. It's like a precious stone jeweller, analysing the stone and getting corroboration with others before cutting, because you get it wrong and all the value is lost. You get the same on any restoration project eg the plane restorers on Kermit Weeks site do the same. They are all VERY PATIENT specialists.

[@philup4947]

@@David-yo5ws Complete and utter nonsense.

[@David-yo5ws]

@@philup4947 I see Phil. Your complete in-depth description and coverage from your reply, tells me everything I need to know.

[@philup4947]

@@David-yo5ws I can say the same for yorself if you need this level of repetitive hand holding.