SA80: How Games Use “The Worst Modern Military Rifle” - Loadout

[@IrregularDave]

I hope you are enjoying this season of Loadout! It was a lot of fun taking a look at such an infamous British bullpup. Remember to watch the previous episodes if you have missed, subscribe for more, and hit me with all of your thoughts and ideas in the comments! 🫡

[@kanrakucheese]

42nd week asking for Loadout on games (not) keeping track of round in chamber between reloads.

[@blindside3233]

I always thought the FAMAS had a worse reputation

[@peterohanraha-hanrahan5097]

Too bad you never got into what was actually wrong with the first iteration, why it needed to be fixed in the first place.

[@SvenElven]

I notice you've started speaking like a bit of an expert yourself! Were you a videogame firearms nerd yourself before starting this series, or did you learn a lot of it working on these episodes?

[@IrregularDave]

@@SvenElven Thanks! I was always a bit of a gun nerd, having a fascination of firearms from games and movies - there was even a time that my teachers in high-school had a talk with me because they thought it was odd that I was reading gun Wikipedia pages in the library at lunchtime... I definitely had a decent base level of knowledge, but working on Loadout and Firearms Expert Reacts has definitely expanded that in a big way!

[@CobraDBlade]

My favorite quote relating to the L85 is from Top Gear era Clarkson: "The soldiers are using the L85A2, which is different from the A1 in that (Clarkson Pause) it works."

[@mat_tamarin]

Classic! 😂

[@FlyboyHelosim]

Oh no! Anyway...

[@devinthierault]

​@@FlyboyHelosim"And James May is looking down the barrel again, whilst Hammond is dry firing with a loaded magazine."

[@FlyboyHelosim]

@@devinthierault Is that something that was actually said?

[@devinthierault]

@@FlyboyHelosim No I came up with it on my own. Cause James May is Captain Slow, and Hammond has a habit of getting into awful incidents yet surviving...somehow.

[@harrymorris2361]

The L85A1 was nicknamed “The civil servant/the politician” by some soldiers… because it Never worked and you couldn’t fire it.

[@tomelgon7651]

HoHoHo!😆😆

[@kapitan762x54R]

Clever enough.

[@greycatturtle7132]

XD 😂😂😂😂

[@derekp2674]

That's really a very ungrateful reference to all the UK MoD engineers and scientists who work hard to research and develop all sorts of kit for the forces. I think many of the problems with SA80 were made far worse by the politics involved in the privatisation of the ROFs and by the subsequent behaviour of the private sector companies involved. For example, once Enfield had been sold off, BAe/Royal Ordnance made a fast buck by closing the Enfield site and selling off the land. L85 production (and the Pattern Room collection now held by Royal Armouries) were then moved to Nottingham.

[@JasoniBruh]

​@@derekp2674you can't call someone ungrateful for being sent into combat with your method of survival being dysfunctional. Imagine being called ungrateful for calling Toyota a bad company if their car almost killed you due to malfunction.

[@maxwell6881]

Once Ive seen someone say The ar15 jams when exposed to sand/ice The ak jams when exposed to mud The sa80 jams when exposed to ammo

[@onegg04]

Aye! Glad you watch Flannel Daddy!

[@rizkisoekartono454]

Yep I've seen this but forgot where it was 😂

[@saytax]

No. AR jams to ice

[@TheAspiringEngineer]

😂​@@onegg04

[@crappymeal]

It's in the reply section of every video about the gun

[@flamma77]

Jonathan's book "Thorneycroft to SA80: British Bullpup Firearms, 1901-2020" is an amazing read and I strongly recommend it to anyone interested in firearm history and design!

[@derekp2674]

I'll second that. It was great to see the L85A2 trials report data in there.

[@jasonirwin4631]

I hope that with Jonathan's popularity the Ian and head stamp publishing will reprint his book

[@derekp2674]

@@jasonirwin4631 Well signed copies from its the 2nd printing are currently listed as "in stock" on the Royal Armouries website.

[@A13xr]

I just received my copy today! Well timed with the release of the SA-80 video.

[@edking5125]

I’d love a copy to read, pricey tho

[@ssjaken]

"The shoulder thing that goes up" Thats a semi-deep cut reference! Props Jonathan! There was a US Representative that authored a bill to "Ban Assault Weapons". A part of the bill was banning of "barrel shrouds". When asked by a reporter if the US Rep could explain what a "barrel shroud" was she replied with "The shoulder thing that goes up?" It was a Dean Scream moment that was almost impossible to recover from.

[@charlesb.1945]

Except he wasn’t referring to that at all the LSW has an actual shoulder thing that goes up

[@Del_S]

Jonathan's such a gun expert he can load an invisible magazine into the rifle 0:08 and it appears in the next cut 0:10.

[@z-trip5457]

Will be fixed in the next patch

[@ADwOS]

He is the chosen one!

[@centius3563]

Moreover, before that he had already loaded magazine into the rifle.

[@randomfaca]

The inclusion of the L85A1 in the STALKER games is one of the coolest ones IMO. It's most often the first 5.56 rifle you get your hands on and the built in scope really helps in a game where many engagements are medium/long range (for a game) in open fields/slight hills and lots of foliage. By this point in the game you have plenty of reliable AK74s but they are not as effective for accurate single shot as well as the AN94 which is better in that regard but is also just as unreliable as the L85. The L85 in STALKER really forces the player to keep their distance because of the higher probability of jams and its arguably the worst rifle for full auto, with a lot of vertical recoil (which does seem based on real life considering the rear biased weight of the rifle) The STALKER lore is also pretty cool. If I recall correctly, in that alternate reality the UK replaced it with an altogether different rifle and the A1s ended up on the black market and, eventually, in the Zone.

[@theceoofcrackcocaineandamp5961]

Didn’t read.

[@Alex-no1rb]

yeah, in this reality (2012 according to first game, released in 2007) UK replaced SA-80 (in game IL-86) with G-36, which is also in the game as the most accurate NATO assault rifle still. in first STALKER you could find unique wariants either with integrated silencer or more accurate one

[@catlee8064]

I used the L85 rifle in bosnia, N Ireland, Kosovo, Iraq x2 and Afghan x2. Both the A1 and A2 versions, and i never had much problem with them. Of course you get stoppages, both on range and in contact....but any rifle you can name has stoppages. Nothing ever broke on it, didnt explode and ive put 1000s of rnds through them. I liked it.

[@marklloyd4087]

The only problem I had with it SA80 in my 13 years service, the trigger gaurd would some times come off exposing the the trigger.

[@Antare5]

Whenever I see this gun, I think Stalker. Interestingly, in the second and third games (Clear Sky and Call of Pripyat) there are characters that can upgrade and repair your weapons. I remember how many upgrades on this weapon are strictly tied to the reliability of the weapon, but if you go through with it, it makes for a very solid all around rifle. Which sounds like what happened in real life too, going by your summary of the A2.

[@5t3v0esque]

If I recall right and it wasn't in a mod that's been forgotten the description also stated that the IL86 had been replaced in british service by the GP-37 (the AKA47 name for the G36 in game) which is why many of them had been found in the zone. Jonathan should cover the vanilla game guns because I'd be fascinated to see what he has to say, especially about the LR300/TRs301.

[@Badwurst68]

​@@5t3v0esque He definitely should ! I already suggested it in the comments a while ago. There are also horribly cursed weapon animations in all games.

[@Wogle]

Honestly, the A2 was a pretty decent bit of kit, and I liked using it. It was just a bit of a diva with maintenance compared to its contemporaries.

[@WanderingDutch]

I enjoyed watching springs flying off into the distance by those learning to tear it down for the first time.

[@TonyWulf66]

@@WanderingDutch Still happens with bods who've been in for years

[@bradcogan8588]

​@@WanderingDutch or those ending up with what looks like a snake bite on their face if it hit them lol

[@wessexdruid7598]

I carried one for six years, after eleven years of an L1A1. As a left-hander I alway,s hated it, and losing the ability to use it ambidextrously. But, with the SUSAT, it was hugely accurate, vastly improving unit APWT scores - and, at least for me, jamming was never a problem** (I never had to use one in the middle east). As always, keeping the weapon clean and understanding the gas settings were a key infantry skill - typically I ran my SLR on a gas setting of 12 and never experienced a jam. ** Except when using the .22 conversion - when we did NITAT in 1990 just after first issue, they had a tendency to feed unfired .22 rounds *into* the trigger grip, behind the sear - which could have been more than just embarrassing.

[@armholeeio]

Having to use both the A1 and A2 versions, definitely remember getting bollacked for doing rifle drills with the A1 and the Mag getting ejected and pinged across the parade ground and being called a horrible little man .. following a beasting session.

[@saytax]

I read the original mag well catch/release was not very good, that mags would simply fall out in Iraq due to high temperatures and thin expanding stamped metal, and I've seen video of foreign forces trying the rifle and having to reseat the mag during firing. Operationally, it's only accustomed to right handed users and doesn't allow for shoulder transitioning. While updates have improved reliability, I believe it still needs improvement in function to be adopted in a broader spectrum of forces and not just a straight infantryman rifle. It's a shame, because I rather liked the look of the rifle.

[@moochoman9948]

The mags from the A1 were terrible compared to the A2. I only had the A1 in training thank God.

[@Mr_T_Badger]

I always liked “horrible little man” as an insult. 🤣

[@saytax]

@@moochoman9948 lol. Yes, thank God.

[@moochoman9948]

@@saytax tbf the A2 is a decent rifle. I wouldn't pick it over an AR though.

[@flamvellstrike141]

I feel that the stamped sheet receiver and blocky shape really gives a unique aesthetic to it. I just hate that it can't be fired left-handed without breaking teeth.

[@saytax]

Especially considering Austria already addressed that with the AUG earlier.

[@Mr_T_Badger]

From what I understand, left handed troops just had to lump it and fire right handed.

[@Mister_Kourkoutas]

It is possible to fire it from the left shoulder if you cant it at a 45 degree angle with the ejection facing down in order to save your teeth. It’s only done this way in CQB when firing around corners in trenches and buildings however. Keeping the weapon up whilst keeping the operator as far into cover as possible. For everything else, you have the standard issue right shoulder.

[@Killicon93]

@@Mr_T_Badger The worst part is that the idea that left-handed shooters should shoot from their left side is rather outdated. In modern shooting it's taught that you should preferably shoot with the side of your dominant eye. And from my experience once having to shoot from my non-dominant side when my left lat was really sore from a workout; I'd say that cross hand-eye dominant shooters have the best setup for shooting as they get to support their rifle with their stronger arm.

[@yootaobe5536]

​@@Mr_T_Badgeryes thats true. My recruiter lied and said I could be given a modified left handed rifle. Was immediately told no at basic training and taught to fire right handed.

[@wilky952]

I love the A2, never had a problem with stoppages, never had a problem at range, never had a problem crossing doorways. Very good multipurpose weapon.

[@wilky952]

In stalker I imagine you will also lose health every time you fire due to the casings burning your face off.

[@zeitgeistx5239]

But you would have a problem shooting from corners which is why some only bullpups that eject downwards are preferred in close quarters.

[@wilky952]

@@zeitgeistx5239 Fair point, if you are camping in COD, but that is a very rare and niche case that I have never had an issue with IRL. Like I said, it is multipurpose, Weapons designed for specific environments should always perform better in said environment.

[@samb2052]

It was fine until you needed to shoot left-handed. They always functioned fine if you looked after them and stoppages could pretty much always be cleared on the spot.

[@originalkk882]

In BF2 the L85 was available as an unlock for medics, along with the G36E. It was oddly quite good on single shot, but sprayed everywhere but the target on auto.

[@MBelasko12]

In BF2 the SA80w/SUAT sight was the medic unlock and was beastly with the ability to accurately hit people in semi auto.

[@Scuzzlebutt142]

In BF3, it was one of the few assault rifles with a 3 round burst AND full auto, which made it one of the best all rounders for me, as could plink at people with reasonable accuracy and fire rate at range with the 3 round, then switch to full at short range.

[@cardcrash]

BF2 is one of the best games ever. I loved playing medic with the L85, it was super accurate in semi-auto!

[@jackyu1013]

0:37 That loading sound effect from MW19 goes super hard compared to real one seriously 🥵

[@aicragej]

I absolutely love the look of the A2 with the SUSAT and the original furniture. I even bought an airsoft replica of it. Interesting story, when I took it out on game day, it kept dropping magazines and it stopped working by midday. I had to stop playing to fix the electrical contacts to the gearbox. That airsoft replica was so realistic XD.

[@jakew7982]

Except the A2 doesn’t have any issues like that…the A1 on the other hand ;)

[@Chablar89]

Man, Battlefield 3 really was a great game. I remember how intense those subway firefights were. Still good to this day.

[@kurt9837]

The best battlefield

[@cardcrash]

BF2 for me!

[@TheFirstCurse1]

I loved it in Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 because of how unique it looked, and it was my main assault rifle in Ghost Recon: Wildlands. Both games I always had the ACOG sight on it. It just looks so nice.

[@gavintjames1989]

I had the LSW as my weapon in my regiment and loved it.

[@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries]

There are dozens of you, dozens! In seriousness, that's interesting to hear. What did you like best about it?

[@samburden1820]

I got marksman in both LSW sa80 My groupings was a lot better with the LSW and it fired a bit further on target

[@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries]

Our armourer liked the LSW for its greater accuracy as well.@@samburden1820

[@edking5125]

I quite liked the lsw. Bit of a lumpy shape with all the catches and bevels on the outrigger.. cumbersome in a building, but set up on the bi-pod with a pile of mags it was very easy to be accurate. Cant comment on combat with it.

[@edking5125]

I had a couple of firing pins snap on me firing blank and ball

[@ChenAnPin]

The DIvision 2 had the SA80 LSW version as well which alongside the RPK felt like a "heavy assault rifle"" as a mag-fed LMG that stood out from the other belt-fed LMGs in the game, trading its smaller bullet capacity for its faster reload and the greater stability than an AR.

[@100nitrog2]

They did the same in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (2009).

[@cainprescott4937]

I do always enjoy mag-fed LMGs when they appear in games - even if they're effectively just upscaled ARs, it's nice to see. bonus points go to the M249, because thanks to its ability to take AR magazines it's often seen as both mag-fed AND belt-fed depending on context

[@49mozzer]

What's a British LMG doing in DC anyway?

[@baker90338]

@@49mozzerembassy is my guess.

[@TheFirstCurse1]

​@@49mozzerBoth Fallout and The Division become very hilarious once you think about the weapons that are there after an apocalyptic event. Like in Fallout 4 you have AKs and Volksturmgehwers in Boston, and in The Division you have tons of weapons that don't belong there.

[@etiennesharp]

I'm one of those who never had an issue with the A1. Very reliable rifle in my experience.

[@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries]

Our armourer says the same. Although he never had to rely on it in combat, and he also hates the thing with a passion :D

[@etiennesharp]

@@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries Same, to be fair. I only ever used it on ranges or exercise, never on Ops.

[@catlee8064]

Glad to find another who liked it and never had problems with it.

[@stuartwaldron3710]

Same here On and off the range in no time

[@stamfordly6463]

My only real gripe with the A2 was the weight and a surprising amount of that was the SUSAT. It shot well and the compact package was easy to carry while ensuring that nobody in the platoon/troop was short changed with a carbine or SMG for the odd time when you need to throw the maximum amount of fire out to range. A noticeably lower signature than the M4 too. I think the major problem was that it was an ambitious idea but put together in a terribly unambitious way.

[@splurg123]

Right? I got to handle an M4 whilst on exercise and the difference in weight was unreal. Generally liked the SA80 itself, loathed the SUSAT. Had a range day where my weapon was firing low at 200m and the sighting post obstructed the weapon splash so I couldn't adjust.

[@kidousenshi6025]

It’s also been referenced in anime too, chief among them is Mobile suit Gundam by the federation. It’s even in the game Gundam Battle Operation 2.

[@tedjones1021]

I believe it shows up in Ghost in the Shell too

[@harrymorris2361]

@@tedjones1021 and in Hellsing/Ultimate

[@UnosRecens]

“The Worst Modern Military Rifle” - it's better Jonathan don't see this title

[@jaderabbit898]

I mean, Jonathan even developed Stocholm Syndrome for the thing so if that doesn't tell you something, I dunno what will.

[@maikgroe2365]

I bet he suggested that title himself.

[@jaklawrence4301]

I think that is more or less exactly snipped from the forgotten weapons video about it from a while back - makes sense with all the Royal Armories x Forgotten Weapons crossovers both on and off screen.

[@Kinsect101]

I thought the worst military rifle was the Japanese’s Howa Type 64 battle rifle?

[@kanrakucheese]

INSAS has taken the title.

[@splurg123]

Ex soldier here. I mostly handled the A2 and any malfunctions I experienced were user error (improperly positioned gas plug or loose magazines usually). My big bugbear with the weapon I used was the SUSAT sight post obstructiong the splash of rounds if they land low or you're shooting at a range where bullet drop is a factor. SQUAD is the only game I've seen this weapon and the SUSAT sight very well represented. It bugs me how COD and it's ilk tend to use the LSW version which sees very little service because it's outperformed in its role by marskman rifles or actual SAWs.

[@kestrels-in-the-sky]

The L85 is such a nice looking gun honestly

[@dennisbeale4148]

As Somine who is in the army, I can say I’ve never had any problems using the sa80, it’s got its slight problems but I’ve never had a jam of anything too bad whilst I use it and still use it

[@ArteriusSaren]

As I recall correctly Maxim Popenker was on short leg with Stalker devs he even represented in game as one of Freedom characters. I think an idea to make A1 version jam more frequently than other AR's in the game might be his idea. Ian from Forgotten Weapon has at least 1 interview with Maxim

[@gringotom242]

The A2 you have there is the exact configuration that I had in Afghanistan in 2011. Great video by the way

[@j.4354]

I deal with the SA80 and the most common issues we get back now is the rubber padding crumbles here and there looking like a dog toy that’s been chewed….i guess the rations don’t fill all too well, but most of the internal parts if cleaned and maintained on the field hold its piece, it’s very rare I have to get spare parts out the store to change the internals and usually down to human error when there’s issues or faults with a part.

[@goodhunter8520]

I think the rifle of ISA soldiers in Killzone series was heavily inspired by SA80. I always liked Helghan's assault rifles more because of it's cooler circular magazine, but ISA's rifle had a taped double magazine and when the second magazine was full, the reload animation was superb. I'm a big fan of LSW in games.

[@itsconnorstime]

Funnily enough, the Croatian VHS rifle seems to have been inspired by the Helghast rifle!

[@terry7907]

Quality control problems in UK manufacturing in the 80s? Really?

[@derekp2674]

That can serve as a nice excuse, but my view is that poor design for production was the main fault of the L85A1, so its manufacturers were set up to fail.

[@pluemas]

@@derekp2674 It really wasnt a bad design. Thats why the HK (which was british owned) had to make basically no design changes to teh operating system. All they had to do was take production to a factory that wasnt in a labour dispute and the rifle was fine. The only thing they did was change the cocking handle, add a cover to the magazine carch (that one is truely a bizare thing not to have, but an easy fix) and open the ejector port up a little (which has pros and cons). The "get the germans to fix it" myth is pushed to stop criticism into the poor training squaddies got on the weapon, and to deflect away from the abysmal way the workers and factories that made it were being treated.

[@derekp2674]

@@pluemas That's why I said "design for production" rather than just "design" in my post above. I have read all the details of HK's modifications that are given in my copy of Jonathan's book. I have also visited both the Enfield and Nottingham factories, which is why i think it is a bit of a cop out to blame the faults on production quality control at those plants.

[@IamElChapo]

From what I've been told by my mates in the Army, the L85A3 is genuinely a great rifle.

[@EvilGremlin100]

Not had the chance to fire that yet as plenty places are still using A2, but a mate of mine who was in a trials & developed unit got to play with the new weapon that will replace the SA80 in the near future. Can't remember what it's called but I believe it was modelled after the AR15

[@IamElChapo]

@@EvilGremlin100 Spoken to a few bootnecks who also confirm the Canadian m4 they use is great as well!

[@god4143]

@@EvilGremlin100ks1😊

[@rbgerald2469]

Regular joes would be stuck with the L85A3 sadly. KS-1 is for British Army and Royal Marines special operations-capable forces. (Army Special Operations Brigade and elements of the Royal Marines including strike companies and the Surveillance and Reconnaissance Squadron)

[@driftertank]

At 12:31, I wonder if Johnathan is aware of the meme status of the phrase "the shoulder thing that goes up" among American gun enthusiasts and was making a cheeky allusion, or if that was just an innocent and sort of ironic gaffe?

[@kartuliboy9492]

I'm quite certain he knows the meme status of the phrase considering his knowledge on gun culture in the US

[@driftertank]

@@kartuliboy9492 I was kind of thinking so as well...he does have just a bit of grin on his face as he mentions it.

[@MrJimheeren]

Ah yes the firefly soldiers. Wearing the armor of Starship Troopers with a British service rifle

[@splurg123]

Want to place bets as to whether historical British Imperialism was a thought in the weapon selection?

[@MrJimheeren]

@@splurg123 well Paul Verhoeven had the Nazis in mind when his costume department designed those suits for the movie

[@splurg123]

@@MrJimheeren Huh cool. The show took from so many different cultures and time periods it must have been a wild ride making and choosing props for it.

[@Krolose_hill]

Additional fun movie appearance (sort of) is in Akira, which features one of the family of prototypes.

[@green_2159]

“Many games don’t feature jamming and malfunctions.” Stalker: Escape from Pripyat lurks, menacingly.

[@derekp2674]

Far Cry 2 also features jams and degradation but no L85s.

[@rvanhees89]

​@@derekp2674was about to say that, what an incredible game that was.

[@derekp2674]

@@rvanhees89 Well it made me learn to like travelling by bus :)

[@BringMoisture]

I really like the SA-80, I think they look cool

[@davydatwood3158]

I've always thought the L85 was the best looking of all the late 70s/ early 80s bullpups. As a teen I wrote some (pretty awful) stories about an elite special forces/counter-terrorism force I called the "Queen's Own Canadian Guards" (I'm Canadian) and I gave them L85s because the weapon looks cool and seemed to make sense for people riding around in FBI style armoured Suburbans. Though, despite being a massive Firefly fan I somehow overlooked that the Alliance soldiers were carrying L85s and not Moritas. O.o Also, the TTRPG Twilight 2013 actually does a pretty good job of giving bullpups a niche. The combat system gives each player so many "ticks" to do something with, and different actions take longer, so a handgun attack is much, much faster than a bolt-action rifle. L85s (and FAMAS and AUGs) are all a little faster than something like an M16, a little slower than an M4, but have the range and damage of the full-length rifle - which basically only matters if your target is in the 200-400m range bracket - but are also slower to reload. All that seems to mesh pretty well with the real world, and turns bullpups into something that is distinct - but that rarely makes a difference. T2013 even manages to highlight the QC problems of the A1; being post-apocalyptic, there are rules for weapon degradation and failures, and the L85A1 is more likely to have a failure once it gets a bit worn out than the nominal "baseline" weapon. The L85A2 is the same as the baseline, and something like an AKM or a K98 is much less likely to have a failure. Anyway, a long post to say "L85s are cool!" :D

[@THE-BUNKEN-DRUM]

I genuinely want to know more about "The Queen's own Canadian Guards."

[@davydatwood3158]

@@THE-BUNKEN-DRUM It was pretty bog standard stuff transposing GSG-9 type counter-terrorism with an almost Gestapo-esque "Scary soldier/cop" look into Canada. Weirdly, in retrospect it predicted the American Homeland Security troops remarkably well, given that I wrote it in the early 90s before DHS existed.

[@THE-BUNKEN-DRUM]

@davydatwood3158 : Colour me intrigued 🤔 Mate, if you ever decide to write a book. You've got a guaranteed customer here, at least.

[@greywolf6443]

How about a Loadout episode on the IRL history of weapons customization, with that comming more and more in games (and getting more and more rediculous). From the practical to the optical.

[@LouiseBrooksBob]

Calling the SA80 the worst military rifle is like calling the Mustang a bad World War II fighter because it was underpowered until the Merlin engine was fitted. This is a great rifle with a form factor that makes it good for mechanised warfare, that had problems which were fixed.

[@Bird_Dog00]

OK, you guys realy need to make on of those videos about the "right arm of the free world": The FN FAL. If there's one iconic battle riffle, it's the FAL.

[@TheFirstCurse1]

I mean there are plenty of iconic battle rifles, but the FAL is certainly the most iconic.

[@zachplummer625]

I remember this being my favorite rifle in Rainbow 6.

[@Patriiiiick]

My very, very short lived 4 month long military career went by in a blink of an eye but back in the early 2000s I did enjoy my time with an SA80, even during my first time on the range I had the weapon on fully automatic and got a bit of a fright when I was expecting only one round to come out the barrel. Our platoon NCO's definitely kept quiet about it's shortcomings when we were being taught about how to use it.

[@splurg123]

You're not alone. I got my helmet walloped for accidentally leaving the weapon set to automatic at a range. Was very surprised when my slow and steady pull of the trigger produced four rounds rather than 1!

[@LH1980XX]

No the very first appearance in game was not in 1999 it was in in Sabre Team for the Amiga in 1992. It was actually one of the better guns. EDIT just checked IMFDB and my memory is correct.

[@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries]

Good catch! I missed out on Sabre Team and only became aware of it as an X-Com precursor many years later. I would have LOVED that game so it's kind of bad luck that I never played it and thus couldn't advise Dave of the SA80 being it (because you can be sure I'd remember that!).

[@Hobgoublin]

What a great idea for a series, good job man!

[@hmmjedi]

I have experience with the A1... I came to it from the SLR or L1A1 and surprise I never had an issue with it even down to firing 300 blank rounds through it on automatic without it missing a beat... bit a pain to clean afterwards though... my only gripe with it was the weight of it for what it was just over 11 pounds vs just over 7.5 pounds for the M4a1...

[@LexusLFA554]

A similar episode could be done on the G36 as well.

[@TheFirstCurse1]

And they better mention the insanely overpowered MG36 in Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 if they talk about that family of weapons.

[@felixrobitaille8170]

Longest serving service rifle AND pistol probably goes to us Canadian with the C7 rifle (M16A3 ish) since 1984 and no plan to replace it. As for sidearm the Hi Power is still the official pistol (officialy adopted in 1945), but with a plan to be replaced by the Sig P320 (doubtiously adopted, still not in service)

[@seekerhunts]

For handguns, the US had the 1911 in service from 1911 to 1985, swapping to Beretta M9s after wanting to have something with more ammo and more manageable recoil. Rifles, however, I believe you're correct.

[@felixrobitaille8170]

@@seekerhunts that is 74 years for the 1911 in the US and 78 years for the Hi Power here in Canada

[@kanrakucheese]

Since they were the technological peak ~1620-1820 and the switch to caplock was hardly instant, I think some flintlock pistol might beat the Hi Power. That's kinda stretching "model" though.

[@Lex_Lupus85]

My first memory of this rifle is from the SOCOM games on PS2 where I think it was named IW80? In retrospect I now find it odd that US Navy Seals would be carrying it but I suppose it would be explained like the weapons in Counter Strike.

[@colchronic]

This gun serves up more jams than a '70s jukebox

[@Alex-no1rb]

Finally! You mentioned STALKER for the first time. Maybe its time for full breakdown on the franchise?

[@kurt9837]

The A2 is actually a decent rifle. Very accurate. They fixed all the issses with the A1 and in my experience using the the A2 ive only really had stopages from firing blank rounds. Havent got hands on the A3 version personally but have heard its better still.

[@charlesbrazier-currie4118]

Just want to say love ❤ these episodes. And #Royalarmouries ones keep them coming 🙏. I liked using the A2 A3 carbine when in service.

[@kanrakucheese]

If anything it's *still* too reliable in STALKER. Internal British documents found users expected a stoppage in the first magazine. It also lacked any pact counterpart besides the ominpresent AK-74 carbine. If the games had 7.62x39 (no idea why they don't) the SKS and its limited capacity+no optics would have been a good contrast to jam-o-matic+bad optic. 12:19 : I think "mag fed SAW" works for the class name, though perhaps overly on the nose. Since the Russian RPD and RPK are the most iconic example of the class, perhaps "RP" ("handheld machinegun") would work? Likely too similar to "RPG" though. 42nd week of asking for Loadout on games (not) keeping track of rounds in chamber between reload. 65th week of asking for Expert Reacts on Bullet Girls Phantasia.

[@jimogden8020]

It's interesting you mention the RPK, as the one pictured in the video sports a USP-1 optic which was copied from the SUSAT. Also, Britain's home grown Kate Bush had a song, "Army Dreamers" which featured a sample of an SA80 being cocked throughout the song.

[@JonathanFergusonRoyalArmouries]

It was actually copied from the SUIT, only they made a better mount in the process! Very interesting fact on the Kate Bush song :)

[@williambuchanan77]

I've used the SA-80 in the past and enjoyed it. For me there were no problems, stoppages were very rare. I found it was accurate and rather easy to use, my only issue was I thought the trigger could have been lighter.

[@DimosasQuest]

As bad of a reputation the A1 had, i always loved the design and look of the weapon. For me it looks like the quintessential modern military rifle. Ahead of its time.

[@MrJimheeren]

The plastic of the hand frame literally melted when used in combination with bug spray. Horrible horrible rifle. No wonder nobody wanted it

[@DimosasQuest]

@@MrJimheeren Ow yeah, the rifle was horrible in its production etc.

[@f15htast1c]

I always make a point to use the L85 as much as possible when it appears in a game, shame it's such a rare sight.

[@derekp2674]

Thanks Dave and Jonathan, that was entertaining. I don't suppose there are many video games in which the shorter overall length of the L85 rifles leads to any mobility advantages, e.g. if climbing in and out of vehicles or through tunnels.

[@fabe61]

In games like Insurgency or Squad, shorter weapons do feel a lot nicer to use in doorways and windows because the barrel isn’t in the way. It’s a really small thing, especially given you don’t feel the benefit in game of the (relatively) longer barrel at all, but it’s apparent to experienced players.

[@derekp2674]

@@fabe61 Thanks that sounds like a useful improvement relative to Far Cry 2, where I can effectively use a PKM as a submachine gun.

[@DrUmbreon]

The whole discussion reminds me of the Jeremy Clarkson "This is brilliant, but I like this" meme. "You can buy better dogs than my West Highland terrier, but I like my West Highland terrier."

[@bismarkeugen6881]

I'd love to see the L22 Carbine version appear in more games, it looks hilarious with how short it is.

[@koncorde]

I always love playing a game that dipped into specific national entities guns, but particularly the UK. Playing RTCW and getting the silenced Sten was always a treat, or the Enfield in CoD for instance - so it's great when suddenly there's the L86 or SA80 or whatever they decide to call it lurking in a game (such as Fallout 2's XL70E3).

[@jamieoconnor1916]

Great video guys thanks for another fantastic informative piece on legendary weapon 😊I used to hate the SA80 but the more i have learned about the weapon the more i like it fair play to the UK 🇬🇧 doing something different 😊thank you Dave and Jonathan 😊

[@thehorror7135]

Its been 30 years since I served and that thing still gives me nightmare's. Its only redeeming quality is that it forced me to become an ambidextrous shooter.

[@ferocioustick]

He said it. He said "the shoulder thing that goes up." Mystery finally solved.

[@jamessaltzburg9549]

Similar to the feedback of Vietnam vets on the early issue m16. Vets bad mouthed it for years even though the a2 was very reliable.

[@Seb-Storm]

13:35 I beg to differ, for me "The" bullpup is the Steyr Aug A1

[@derekp2674]

Me too!

[@zecaoalfredo4242]

When i first saw the "Queen's Wrath" in Payday 2, it sparked an instant interest in the British bullpup and it took me down on a massive gun related spiral. Battlefield 1 and Payday 2 might have single handedly made my ultimate life passion to be firearms. ❤L85❤

[@maxpotter6181]

The L85A2 was my go-to rifle as the Assault class in BF4. For some reason, I found it to be the one I could hit medium to long-range targets, and the extra hip-fire accuracy made it viable at close range for me despite its lower rate of fire. I think it was objectively a worse weapon than the AEK or M16 in game, but despite being from the US it was my favorite...

[@derekp2674]

Just as in real life, it makes sense to use what shoots best for you.

[@gatosilvestre1510]

Lets be fair, everything was worse than the AEK lol

[@maxpotter6181]

@gatosilvestre1510 Very true. The rate of fire on that thing was ridiculous.

[@manic3855]

Thank you been wanting a video like this for ages

[@PanzerFalcon2232]

I've had many stoppages in ARMA while using the SA80 so it's not *entirely* unrealistic

[@jbk19xx57]

I NEVER understood the hate towards this BEAUTIFUL British Specimen.

[@Mr.Z1989]

As a German I kinda love and hate the aesthetics. It's chunky, blocky and bulky but on the other hand its so unique and the plastic/bakelite grips give me somehow a time travel feeling.

[@sim.frischh9781]

If i hear "bullpup", the first rifle i think of is the Steyr AUG, because i served with that weapon. But whichever it is, the british SA80 certainly is an iconic design.

[@WanderingDutch]

Thankfully i used the SA80A2 and missed the A1 - decent rifle, if a little on the heavy side.

[@splurg123]

Yep. I felt shortchanged when I got to handle an M4 on exercise and realised how much heavier our rifle was. I think the weight difference is reflected in the accuracy though.

[@TurfShifter]

I always loved how you couldn't fire it from your left shoulder round a corner meaning more of your body was exposed. I recall that was a primary reason for the special forces passing on the option of using it routinely.

[@danadezza]

U can switch shoulders when firing it. You just tilt it to the right so you don’t catch brass to the face.

[@mrdave02]

The reason SF used other guns is pretty much the same as why they have different coloured hats......just to look special.

[@drunkwulf3664]

I remember the SA-80 being in OG Ghost Recon on Xbox, and it was the multiplayer meta.

[@Hjaulmandra_Kanathara]

As a Left handed gentleman, who is both 186cm tall, color blind, and Near-sighted who lives in Pacific Northwest…I don’t understand why people hate this weapon. I think it’s kool the Chimney sweeps built a weapon exclusively for people like me!

[@saytax]

Lol

[@aeloswindrunner]

Main weapon used by the squad in Bluestone 42, though I only remember Jan's coming up in one episode

[@harrymorris2361]

And even then it was because he lost his firing pin/retainer pin

[@nyxsuke]

So, I originally found out about this weapon from the first Ghost Recon game, Been in love with it for 23 years now.

[@jacenolmsted6293]

There’s a very good depiction of the lmg variant in the VR game Onward!

[@HeliophobicRiverman]

I had a few L86A1 issued back in 04/05, I remember one being a total pig, jamming multiple times per magazine and an other not jamming at all. It may have been partly due to the magazines themselves, but certainly not exclusively, there was such wonderful variety to the types of jams that I had the pleasure of experiencing. I really liked the balance on the LSW, despite its weight and I liked the furniture for prone firing. Everything else was disappointing.

[@CephalopodsRock]

Killing floor is probably the most British FPS of all time. I played it before I knew a lot about the SA80 and I thought it was such a cool rifle because of it

[@fireaza]

I fondly remember the SA80 as being one of the first good guns you can find in S.T.A.L.K.E.R due to it's integrated optical sight!

[@darkalman]

9:55 - A strange left handed version of the L85 that would eject hot casings into your face

[@Technobabylon]

When they started the A1 replacement, a lot of our school cadet groups suddenly got an upgrade from our bolt-action rifles

[@jimf671]

If you got a bad one, well, it was like a Friday afternoon Austin Allegro. However, if you got a good one; many A1s and almost all A2s; then it was a piece of magic for putting a hole in something far away. I did get issued a dodgy A2 that had accuracy problems and the armourers just wouldn't listen. No jamming problems or anything like that. It was all over the place. Then I got issued my beloved "52" and it was back to normal. I couldn't miss. What a machine.

[@armorers_wrench]

I wish they'd sell a semi auto version in the states. I'd buy one just for the vibe even though I know I'd prefer the AR15 to actually shoot.

[@provendestroyer]

Honestly with how its configured I wouldn't be surprised if you decided you enjoyed firing it as much. Its actually incredibly comfortable.

[@jaklawrence4301]

Underneath the receiver it’s basically a half-backwards AR-18 anyway, so you’ll probably find it very familiar.

[@mrdave02]

If I had to pick an m4 or an l85......l85 every time, though the m4 I got to shoot just seemed a bit flimsy and all the bits were in the wrong place, like the magazine in front of the trigger. Odd.

[@TimmiiGamingChannel]

The problem with the L85A1 was it can jammed pretty easily and the magazine can come unloose or even have it fall out completely when firing the gun. It was popular in games like Arma series and BF or even COD.

[@llmkursk8254]

As someone who is in the know (never fired a gun but know about the history of problems), I still love the design. I view the SA80 in the same way as the first M4s issued in the Vietnam war, where they had problems due to the environment. You’re not gonna get things right on your first attempt. Not everyone is John Moses Browning.

[@TheFirstCurse1]

Exactly. I hate how the L85 gets all the hate while the just as guilty M16 gets away with it.

[@rowanbae4031]

Cant wait to hear what Jonathan Ferguson, the keeper of firearms and artillery at the Royal Armouries Museum in the UK has to say about Bullpups!

[@vedymin1]

I member the rogue spear, first ghost recon (best rifle basically x: ) athena sword etc, always liked it.

[@RetroCharged]

Great video. I hope you do one of these on the G3 in future.

[@csjrogerson2377]

I used the A1 and A2 from 1988-1999 with iron sights and trilux. Only ever had 2 stoppages. I loved the balance of the SLR but I shot best with the A2. I could regularly hit 10" targets at 500 yds.

[@DaveW-h2r]

The dust cover is open on the nearest one on display, 10 press-ups please.

[@quinncunneen7845]

I really appreciated that brief nod to the original Ghost Recon.

[@malusignatius]

It was one of my favourite rifles in Rainbow Six, back in the day.