Sages against Prophets and Priests

The Hebrew Bible is made up of books drawn from many competing traditions: the priests with their focus on the Law of Moses, the prophets who felt the call to channel the Divine word directly, and the sages, whose teachings looked to divine Wisdom for authority. Although the traditions were separate when these books were composed in the First and Second Temple Periods of Judaism, bringing them together into the Biblical library has led to a sense that they share the same perspective, when in fact they are often expressing opinions that are diametrically opposed. In this presentation, John Hamer of Toronto Centre Place will examine the Bible’s Wisdom tradition (Proverbs, Job, Ecclesiastes, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, and other texts) to explore how the sages saw themselves in relation to the priests and prophets in ancient Judea.
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[@garymensurati1631]

Thank you very much John. Always appreciate your efforts, research, and delivery on each subject you discuss. Top notch presentations ! Blessings to all.

[@marcusviniciusalves4971]

Many thanks, from Brazil!

[@robbiefl58]

Another wonderful lecture, John! Usually when Christians and Evangelical quote Biblical passages warning about "the wise," they interpret them as warnings against secular thought, worldly thinking, reasoning separated from any sense of spirituality, scientific theories, etc. It expands my appreciation for the complexity in the Bible as a whole to realize that these were warnings from the prophetic and priestly voices in the Biblical canon decrying sagely voices in the Biblical canon. Those who consolidated these conflicting voices into one volume were themselves very wise. It's unfortunate that millennia of translating these texts from their original languages has created the impression that these diverse, conflicting texts were composed from one common understanding or belief system. Know that the Bible is filled with voices arguing with one another has revolutionized my understanding of what all scriptures all as well as how I approach them. About 20 years ago, a friend introduced me to the concept of scripture as art. And the information that you share in these wonderful lectures resonates with that concept. I've always thought that the Restorationist tradition's approach to studying scriptures could be much more like that found Judaism's Talmudic Debates or the ancient Socratic method. Joseph Smith once said that by proving contraries, truth is made manifest. In light of that concept, it would make sense that competing, conflicting, debating, arguing voices would be present throughout the Biblical canon--or any other work regarded as scripture. An early Restoration concept often overlooked these days is that of Eternal Progression. Realizing that no one can ever know the total truth about all things, but that truth is revealed to each individual bit by bit through many sources means that we can engage with all scriptures in the historical context of their creation--openly, critically, unapologetically, and with no agenda other than, incrementally, progressing in our knowledge of things as they were, as they are, and as they could possibly be in the future.

[@rayneweber5904]

This guy. He does good lectures

[@ian_b]

I find these lectures really enjoyable.

[@Facerip]

Weekly highlight! Thanks!

[@RadioFreeHammerhal]

Big miss - could have named this video Sage Against the Machine :-)

[@abrahamcollier]

Best Centre Place comment yet

[@Arock-pu9zv]

If this was Esoterica that's exactly what it would have been called. He knows his 90's music.

[@RadioFreeHammerhal]

@Arock-pu9zv Love that channel too! They should totally collaborate on something!

[@maxsonthonax1020]

What do I think about this comment. 🤔😄

[@Arock-pu9zv]

@@RadioFreeHammerhal Agreed. Objective religious history is pretty interesting

[@maxsonthonax1020]

Impressed with this one. Feels like new territory.

[@StevenSmolak]

Agreed; love every one of them, but felt I needed this one, personally, much more!

[@VSP4591]

Mulțumim!

[@AquariusGate]

Thank you for the super content that im blessed to access 🙏 this token substantiates the value i have found and the marvellously divine curiosity you pursue in plain view 😊

[@bp6942]

Ah, Toronto, was wondering why you reminded me so much Geddy Lee

[@StevenSmolak]

Yes! A philosophy major too...Geddy. John and Centre Place are awesome!

[@winstonbarquez9538]

Whether it be Lucifer, Adam, Abraham, Moses, Job or Jesus, all are tested for their faithfulness.

[@KTempestBradford]

Thanks for the lecture! All the talk of Under the Sun makes me think of a quote from Octavia E Butler: There's nothing new under the sun. But there are new suns. Definitely goes along with what you said about how, in modernity, we have the idea that things are getting better. But Butler sees this as being more about where humanity goes in the future.

[@AquariusGate]

Thanks, that was thought-provoking. I would say provincial wisdom is misunderstood. Taking it deep enough means it does return as reflective wisdom. The beginning of a reflexive pattern?

[@winstonbarquez9538]

The Jewish authorities rejected Sirach and Wisdom from the Hebrew Canon because they were written in Greek only to find out that there was a Hebrew Sirach among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Btw, the Apostles used the Septuagint, which contained the deuterocanon.

[@davidwest7776]

You could add a few more words here and say that Jesus quoted the Septuagint. Isaiah 29:13 is one example. Now ponder this: If Jesus was God and he quotes words from the Septuagint, does that mean that the Septuagint contains words of God?

[@encompass6857]

I’m happy to understand more about the context of Jesus’ teaching in Judaism before it spins off into Christianity.

[@henrycobb]

Job received ten replacement goldfish, not just seven.

[@jeffreyelliottcruz8095]

Dylan is a genuine poet and an innovative musician. A rare gift. He has been able to put genuine poetry to music. He is not just a lyrist but a genuine poet Laurent. Dylan without question is America's poet Laurent. A true American gift, an American poet. The English romantic poets in many areas are not as gifted as Robert Zimmerman aka Bob Dylan, he chose Dylan because he admires Dylan Thomas. Listen to Dylan's poem, " It's all right ma; I am only bleeding" or " Highway 61". Highway 61 is a metaphorical allegory of the old testament story of Abraham and Issac, but placed in modern times and written in such a method to provide fresh and unique insights for our times. In other words, Dylan took lessons from an ancient moral story and provided a moral allegory from a subtle modern perspective. A fresh approach . Dylan was able to present his extremely literate poetry into a musical melody. Try it, with one of your genuine poems, which you do not turn into lyrics to fit the musical framework. Dylan has repeatedly taken very intricate and sophisticated poetry to melody . That is not easy to do. That is why more often than not the richest literature in poetry is not set to melody. And that is why songs are mostly better suited for lyrics. Dylan is one of the rare few that can take very intricate and sophisticated poetry to music without turning his verse into simple lyrics. Dylan has developed a Woody Gunthrie persona. Not a bad public image but the truth is Robert Zimmerman has an incisive intellect, a keen grasp of monumental issues, a sense of history and a vast education. In highway 61 Dylan was able to take an ancient story designed to teach a moral lesson in the story of Abraham and Issac. However , he presented the ancient story of Abraham and Issac in a modern perspective, for a modern moral within the framework of modern moral lessons . Dylan has successfully been able to accomplish these retellings over and over again. For example, listen to his song " God on our side". His answer to the King's poet as a majestic fisher - king. The best comparison I can make is the Scottish poet Laurent Robert Burns. Burns was also able to write clever verse as genuine poetry which he could successfully set to verse . Burns and Dylan are the only to genuine poets whom had the gift to set their sophisticated poetry to music. I can't think of any others. Except perhaps, King David.

[@eazyelof4283]

Usually I download the videos with my KZbin premium, so I can listen at work where I dont have service. But its not letting me download this one.. is it too new to download or something?

[@jeffkunce8501]

Long livestreams sometimes take a while before they are available to download. But, I was able to download it now (~1 hr after your comment.) Maybe double check to make sure you have a good high speed internet connection.

[@eazyelof4283]

​@@jeffkunce8501 I got it now! I usually can download livestreams of the H3 Podcast after about an hour so it seemed weird

[@jeffkunce8501]

​​@@eazyelof4283Glad you got it downloaded! I really like that feature, too - I download long videos, even when I have a connection, because they seem to play smoother and are less likely to get interrupted.

[@MashaAuerbach]

I can answer the last question the viewer had about the different perspectives Jews have on the Hebrew Bible vs the New Testament...John answers this correctly as far as Judaism looks at the Hebrew Bible in the original language and interprets it from that lens. As far as the New Testament, it is not studied as it is considered a sacred text that is not part of our religion. As far as the Documentary hypothesis, it is not studied by most of the different denominations, I only learned about it in college taking a history of religion course. Perhaps the Reconstructionist movement would look at it, as in that denomination, one of its founding principles is that the Hebrew Bible was written by man, not the Divine. Thanks for the great lectures!

[@dazingamaine4318]

a sage can become a prophet and inspires prophets. a prophet can found a religion and create priests. a priest makes it rigid and thus forces a sage to be born or awaken. a true sage lived alone off somewhere. for example buddha or rasputin. they draw their wisdom from source and thus can gain immortality easier than the others. another way to think about it a sage is introverted and a prophet extroverted. a priest is doctrine above all. they aint bad when the prophet lives but get corrupted easier because of no connection to source. every sage wants you to become a sage. every prophet wants you to become a sage. priests want dominance and rewards for following the path.

[@zelenisok]

Have to disagree that the book of Job necessarily says this. There are different ways to translate and understand certain verses, than the standard translation and interpretation that implies Satan is subordinate to God, God offers Job to Satan for testing, and then gives him permission to go after Job; if translated differently God in fact does no such thing. The standard translation of Job 1:12 goes eg: The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD But this is an interpretative translation. The Hebrew says something like this: And Yahweh said to Satan "Look, all that he has (or that he is) is in your hand (ie in your power), but not do not stretch out your hand towards him (do not go after him). And Satan went out from the presence of Yahweh. A much more straighforward understanding of this worse is not to read in some sort of permission God is granting to saying, but reading this as God just noting that Satan has the power to attack Job and telling him not to. And Satan then leaves and does it anyway. At the beginning of Job 1 is separated from Sons of God, they come before God "and Satan is among them". God asking Satan what he was doing also implies Satan wasnt doing any tasks for God, but his own thing. Then Job 1:8 is read as God offering Job to Satan to consider, but that verse can be read as "Have you been considering my servant Job?" Like God knowing that Satan has been eyeing out Job and is calling him out on it. Similar for other verses. Likewise, God's speech when he appears at the end of the book can easily be understood in this same way as a cosmic conflict response. God is basically complain to Job, look all what I have been doing, look at all these cosmic forces I have been fighting that you cant even imagine, the waters, the Leviathan, Behemoth, etc. When read like this, the book of Job is giving an answer to the question of why evil happens in terms of the cosmic conflict. There are destructive cosmic forces doing it, and God is fighting against them but they manage to do various harm.

[@KjB-t3p]

Interesting! What's your take on 1 kings 22:22...lying spirits in the divine council, God seeming to resort to the tactics of fallen man in using them to deal with Ahab?

[@michellejohnsen912]

I follow what you said but I must disagree, because God is Almighty and doesn't fight against His creatures because He is infinite in power. All He creates is weaker by default. It's all about free will, because true love can't exist without free will. God IS love!

[@Marc-ke2lw]

I wonder if people in pre modern times were so used to losing children and so expectant of having them die meant that for pre modern people the ides of 10 of your kids dying but a whole 10 surviving past you was so incredible it did cancel out the bad in their mind.

[@toonmoene8757]

"all is vanity". Isn't a better translation (I do not know Hebrew): "futile" as in "erfolglos" - without success ? I.e., a lot of effort without (tangible) results ?

[@henrycobb]

Paul the prophet, James the priest, and Mark the sage?

[@andymcintosh3963]

Inspiration, expertise, reason ?

[@AquariusGate]

Jesus is not the saviour of our time. He was here to free the enslaved, we are here denying the enslavement we've fashioned for ourselves.

[@AquariusGate]

8:14 I'm typing as i follow, but i get a sense that there are realms we are afraid to explore. Within the structure on the screen I take sages to be potential arch-angels. Fiercely loving truth there can be no dispute that Jesus is in the mold of such a divne being. He told us truth of us all being the same but wrote nothing 🤔 Other sages do transcend the wrotten word to embody some spirit of life, some wisdom of what we can bring to experience. Every angel is a prophet, our senses coordinate awareness forward to Eden. Attention can be led backward to make sense of the past and make good on our ruin. Living in nature's truths brings its own value and freedom of expression. Eden calls, and the past falls away. Priests must be conduits if they need to exist. 😅

[@winstonbarquez9538]

All three were merged in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

[@cmk1964]

To make a trinity of nonsense.

[@AquariusGate]

51:25 wealth is only made to appear great when others are forced to find mea ing in it.

[@adamfrederick4198]

In the Roman tradition priests and bishops need to submit or give authority to the pope. Is something of the same nature found in community of Christ

[@adamfrederick4198]

Not to the pope obviously but to the council of elders or someone else

[@DonaldGarcia-hi2cv]

Music

[@patriley1026]

He exposes the craziness of all religions and the con men who have promoted it for centuries ( prophets, priests, and sages), and then participates in a Church that does the same. I am still confused why he doesn't become a full time historian and end his relationship with the Church in which he participates?

[@michellejohnsen912]

Because God isn't the one to leave just because humans keep messing things up. God is worth any amount of annoyance we might need to endure. Once you know Jesus you will understand! God bless 🕊