Ascended Super Saiyan is STRONGER than Ascended Super Saiyan

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Credit
Thumbnail - Blackflim on Deviant Art
Music - Retro Ranter, Majin Blue and Halusatwin

[@chimericalical]

During the cell saga Vegeta’s training vs Goku’s is the equivalent of running 10 miles everyday vs running 10 miles on Monday-Friday and resting and relaxing on Sunday and Saturday. One is 70 miles a week and it will get you in shape and conditioned. It’s also going to destroy your body (especially if you’re not used to it). The 50 miles a week is going to be a million times better for you because you have a recovery period for your body to heal back stronger.

[@felldoh9271]

Exactly

[@shizmoo5536]

For humans, these are saiyans in a cartoon. humans on steroids can train near nonstop

[@Bgfire1000]

A better comparison would be vegeta is lifting 300 but only a few times till he can lift more compared to goku lifting 180 but with high sets and reps.

[@TheDuffman1812]

@@Bgfire1000 So Vegeta and Trunks trained for *Strength/Power* while Goku and Gohan Trained for *Stamina/Endurance* then.

[@Bgfire1000]

@@TheDuffman1812 yea pretty much. Staying in ss longer as compared to just increasing your raw power. But don’t get it twisted lifting that 180 with high sets and reps will still make you stronger too.

[@jeffreymorgan8687]

It was a nice touch and nod that Goku and Gohan were benefiting from master Roshi’s model for training. That is, training smart. I always assumed that Vegeta never truly trained prior to achieving Super Saiyan. And he trained like someone who just tries to run as fast as they can, as hard as they can, for as long as they can. Or weight lifting without pausing between reps. And goku is there using lighter weights, taking breaks and getting stronger.

[@AMK281]

If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. Old wisdom and it holds true when we look at the different training methods used by Vegeta and Trunks vs. Goku and Gohan.

[@rustyshackleford5288]

Didn't they make that reference in the walking dead too??

[@troymatthews9541]

28:15 grade 3 is just auxiliary power as well as a partial expansion jutsu. It is used to draw out more power and is better paired with an actual ki blast at full power. So I believe while Vegeta what's powering up the final flash she was also transforming to grade 3 . Instead of using a transformation for fighting you use this transformation to dump into a ki blast. Or to make oneself heavier once relying on the speed from other transmations. Only using grade 3 once making contact

[@Goatcha_M]

Which is how Roshi uses it, he only goes Max Power when using Kamehameha to destroy Fire Mountain and The Moon, he uses an ionly slightly boosted form against Tien. Because its not a Saiyan Form, its a technique anyone can master given enough study. It's a tad stronger coupled with the 50x SSJ multiplier though.

[@troymatthews9541]

@@Goatcha_M say partial expansion Justu .

[@Chronoflation]

I always figured Trunks held himself back for Vegeta's pride, even in his Grade 2 form. He may have actually been slightly stronger than Vegeta but never took full advantage of his training cause he limited his training to never outshine his father and damage his pride. They were close enough to being equal by the Cell Games, I think any differences were minimal at that point, but before, Trunks may have been stronger so that they would end up about equal by the Cell Games. I wish he went into the Time Chamber with Piccolo to get trained by Gohan's original master to help him overcome the weaknesses Cell pointed out to him. I think Piccolo and Trunks would've ended up much stronger if they trained together

[@skylerb97]

In the dub Trunks explicitly says to Krillin he didn't use grade 3 because of Vegeta's pride

[@Chronoflation]

@@skylerb97 Well yeah, but I took it as a general statement that also included him not going into grade 3

[@alfieingrouille1528]

Ngl even though it's really slow grade three is my favorite ascended Saiyan variant

[@Marcus_shawn]

Can we appreciate how smart kakarot was in Z compared to super 😂

[@felldoh9271]

The Professor doing a 40+ minute video on this specific topic is my dream, so thank you. Goku’s training method is more like Mike Mentzer (pioneered the HIT [high intensity training] method) who emphasized recovery after short yet intense exercise sessions. Although Vegeta failed to realize the best path was mastering ssj and training against someone of equal strength, his method is probably similar with less emphasis on recovery (remember him making time for a nap on Namek in order to recover his power even more than the zenkai boost allotted him).

[@Strategistdating]

They didn't train together like Goku and Gohan period! They each trained alone they could have far surpassed Them.

[@ogb8637]

I agree

[@lightyoshiman]

its implied that they did train together for a small bit but not enough to see each others growth (well vegeta didn't anyways) compared to goku&gohan who almost spent every waking moment training together with goku ascending and learning the weakness of the form which he tells gohan and that's when he came up with the ideal for the full power ssj

[@geigercourtier]

Your grammar needs work

[@CatAttack6471]

⁠@@lightyoshimanplease tell me your not talking about super retconing that to make vegeta look like less of a bad person lmao

[@lightyoshiman]

I'm pretty sure it was implied long before super was even a though in tori's head trunks came out of the chamber and started talking about the training with vegeta cutting him off saying "our training is never to be discussed" which implied that the two had at least spend a brief moment training together @@CatAttack6471

[@Ashylerry91]

I think Piccolo shoulda went in with Trunks imo

[@cobaltlance18]

Honestly, I feel like Goku shoukd have gone in with Trunks, for at least a few months, do the boy the favor of teaching him how to really train, unlike Vegeta. Piccolo would have also been a good choice. Maybe 6 Months with Goku, 6 Months with Piccolo. Maybe Piccolo should have spent 6 months with Vegeta as well.

[@quotivation47]

Yoooo! That would have been good for both of them.

[@dekaritheprofessor2631]

Honestly, that would have been better than training with Vegeta.

[@gregorymcavoy758]

That is a 20 year old idea I have had. What if Trunks and Piccolo went in together? Piccolo is smarter than Vegeta in training and he would be very familiar with Saiyan training potential after training three years with Goku and Gohan. Maybe Trunks would not reach the level of Goku (or maybe he would though the hybrid potential) but at least he would be far more experienced.

[@devildavin]

yea Trunks would have really benifitted from some real training. Future Gohan still held piccolo in just a high regard as his father so i don't see Trunks saying no or atleast he shouldn't be saying no to training from Piccolo. if i was future Trunks i would have tried to get some training from everyone. even Yamcha.

[@jasonstephens6109]

I think what would have been cool is if Trunks asked Goku to go in with hom after he and Gohan came out and Goku instead suggests Gohan and we got a year of the role reversal as well as trunks realizing Gihan was more powerful than Goku.

[@MrJreed1000]

This was vegeta's fault.. Trunks has similar potential to Gohan.. If Vegeta trained Trunks like Goku trained Gohan they both mightve been stronger than goku and trunks maybe as strong as gohan

[@TheGr8one1022]

His ego is just too much. He wants to do everything alone, his whole life was surrounded by people who were either way too weak to train with him, or far too powerful for him to train with them. He never learned how to actually train with anyone else outside of his missions and killing.

[@byrongrimsley500]

​@TheGr8one1022 you do know Toriyama wrote this character and vegeta isn't a real person

[@devildavin]

i get that Trunks wanted to be around his dad but with Trunks also being a fighter that wants to get results and not just fight for the fun of it. he should have tried to get piccolo for some training if Goku was focusing on Gohan. piccolo may not be able to help with super sayian but he is really smart. he managed to keep pace with Goku before needing to fuse with Kami. plus all of kami's knowledge is at piccolo's whim now too.

[@MrJreed1000]

@@devildavin trunks qas from the futire where he had no idea piccolo was the guy to ask... bulma told him stories of goku and vegeta...

[@shawn092182]

​​@@MrJreed1000Except that Future Gohan would've told Trunks about Piccolo being his master, the one who's responsible for teaching him the majority of his martial arts skills.

[@j90001]

Goku: Train smart. Vegeta: Train hard.

[@LS-mb4my]

IIRC Didn't Toriyama actually state that Vegeta's final flash was strong enough to kill cell, and had Cell not dodged the last second, he would have died then and there?

[@Chronoflation]

I mean, it destroyed the entire part of his body that it came in touch with. So yeah, that makes sense. Too bad concentrating all his ki like that takes way too long to actually hit dead on. Heck, if he had used that against Super Perfect Cell, it still probably would've done a lot of damage

[@isaaccuevas1717]

The weirdest thing is that ssj goku and gohan SHOULD be stronger then the other super saiyans due to having grade 4(stronger then grade 3,grade 2, and grade 1).goten Turning ssj is not the same thing as gohan turing ssj,they have different forms but they treat it as the same thing

[@arrownoir]

SSJ Goten is stronger than SSJ teen Gohan.

[@ParadiseLordRyu]

Isn’t grade 4 just super saiyan minus the drain?

[@sky-oq5mr]

​@@arrownoirno he's not. Piccolo was the one shown after Gotenks reverted inside Buu, not goten or trunks.

[@arrownoir]

@@sky-oq5mr Piccolo at that point was already far superior to SSJ teen Gohan, so that doesn’t say anything to disprove what I said.

[@blak238]

Dude Gohans and Goku's ssj form in the cell games was stronger than Vegeta and trunks ssj forms. That was the whole point. They all could turn ssj but Goku and Gohans were stronger

[@dannylopez5976]

In my mind the reason someone like Kid Goku never reached super sayian or Trunks didn't achieve super sayian 2 sooner is the physical conditioning. If your body is not at a certain point no matter the loss the rage boost won't push you over a certain line.

[@purpleemerald5299]

GT, of all series, actually touched on that with Kid Goku suddenly struggling with Super Saiyan 3. Gohan never going super saiyan during any of his MANY rage states until he’s pubescent basically confirms that.

[@Goatcha_M]

The problem with that is Goten. But in general I agree, or at least that you need a certain level of base power to make it possible.

[@ggadams639]

yeah and I would even push on the ki mastery, which explains why Goten and kid Trunks were able. They trained very early on and I guess learned SSJ1 by imitating their elders. Gohan did learn maybe slower thank his brother because he didn't like to fight unlike Goten, and even maybe have more issues with his emotions.

[@mattmoore4044]

Trunks does kinda make sense as we see he underwent intense gravity training with Vegeta. But maybe the reason Goten achieved it easier was because Goku might have been super Saiyan when he was conceived? Although I don't see what two pampered kids could be angry enough to turn super Saiyan over

[@notromeo_]

@@Goatcha_M Goten had more S cells

[@robinthrush9672]

I've always had an issue with referring to the enhanced muscle forms as grades of super saiyan. We've seen that technique at other points in the series independent of super saiyan; Roshi does it, Goku does it against Vegeta when using the kaio-ken, Frieza did it, and a host of other characters afterward show it with or without saiyan DNA (like Perfect Cell pumping up his muscles).

[@FutureDeep]

What would you call it? Buff Super Saiyan and Buffer Super Saiyan?

[@robinthrush9672]

@@FutureDeep Just Power Weighted while super saiyan. Is there a speciall name for Super Saiyan Blue with Kaio-ken x20?

[@dominiquerobinson8888]

Those not the same techniques though. Frieza and Roshi are just going full power. The grades are failed attempts at reaching ssj2

[@robinthrush9672]

@@dominiquerobinson8888 What's the difference practically? And what evidence is there that it's not simply the same technique?

[@dominiquerobinson8888]

@@robinthrush9672 The plot of the show lol. Those dubs at just easier ways to distinguish the forms. Rosh and Frieza literally say they just going full power/ 100% that’s not something they have to learn how to do. The Grades aren’t full power, they are failed attempts at going ssj2. That’s why gohan never does it

[@corey2232]

Like you said, it's purely because the plot demanded Goku & Gohan be stronger than Vegeta & Trunks at that point. Because every single other time, the way to get stronger is being pushed to the brink, or just more "training," whether it's off screen, training alone or training with a partner. It's cool that Goku & Gohan could achieve better results through focusing on stamina & "mastering SSJ" (whatever that means) but typically in DB training does the trick. Unfortunately for Vegeta & Trunks, they're not allowed to permanently defeat the big bad, so that was off the table.

[@MatthewPolis]

I'm so glad you covered this topic I watched this whole video with satisfaction I subscribed and I noticed when Vegeta first powered up they look like he went to grade three and then when he exhaled he slowly went down the grade two

[@larvasupershow]

supa bejita was feeling himself throughout Android saga. Loved the saiyans, as well as everyone else, looking to surpass their limits.

[@isaacvale918]

Honestly I think Vegeta would stomp Trunks with experience even if Trunks was slightly stronger. The comparison in combat choice makes it obvious to me. Aslo Vegeta showcased he atleast understood the concept of grade 3 when he used that full power final flash.

[@wearblackclothes]

Goku to vegeta in dbz : if you think torturing your body in there is the same as training then go ahead Goku to vegeta in super: every little bit helps

[@Blazekid1906]

1:00 to clarify Goku outright states to gohan that everyone has eclipsed him and he would only get in the way had he went to save piccolo

[@CatAttack6471]

People really fail to realize how trunks’s form perfectly reflects his backstory / goal of trying to save everyone. Trunks lost everything before he could even walk and didn’t start training with Gohan until much later in his life unlike every single other dbz Character who was training since like age 5 minimum. Then loosing him not long after he’s left training by himself so he can only grow so much. Trunks doesn’t “want to fight” so why would he be aware of the “skills” in the main timeline the others are and even with that, he defeated frieza easily without any sort of gravity training and only training with Gohan. Gee it sure would be nice if someone could understand trunks was lacking of certain “training” and that the form has a speed problem but it’s not like he was training with anyone that could have given him the bare minimum for a year or anything…definitely not… It’s Obvious to everyone the form isn’t “good” but all trunks knew was to increase his power / get stronger so he can save everyone so it only makes sense that he was unaware of the flaws

[@user-sx4qu4dz9z]

We dont care

[@Chronoflation]

Yeah, he achieved the level of power needed to destroy his enemies, but he threw away everything he needed to utilize his power effectively. He didn't consider any negative consequences to obsessing over power. It's ironically very Frieza of him, or like Vegeta without the nuance or awareness that he has from years as a fighter. Trunks only knows survive and destroy. Different mindsets that leave him unprepared for the challenges he faces when he isn't at least on the same level as them. That said, it's really a shame Trunks ended up like this after his amazing introduction that placed him as comparable to Goku in terms of strength, at the very least, and skillful enough to take out Frieza with the strength he had. Although, I kinda like that this mysterious super saiyan from the future who Gohan died for was still pretty naive and inexperienced. Would've been nice to see him and Gohan or him and Piccolo train a bit more together so he could pick up on things that Future Gohan didn't get the chance to teach him or didn't think about teaching him. Also would've been a good way for his training to come fill circle with his master's master helping him out after his father denied him the opportunity to really train together and help him overcome his weaknesses. Vegeta would've been a great master if he chose to just be a master for Trunks. Too bad he refused to do that, would've helped them both

[@Aquilenne]

Yeah, you see the same thing with the similarly inexperienced Gohan looking at the form as if it's an amazing tool until Goku corrects him.

[@beensavage390]

Everyone:"Trunks and Vegeta" This Guy:"Trunks and Vegetr"

[@LegendofNelda]

1000% plot. The way they train for the Buu saga is the same "brute" way they always did and Vegeta got ssj2 and Goku got ssj3

[@phillipcarson2544]

Gohan and Goku training is a perfect storm of hybrid Saiyan potential and pure Saiyan fighting instinct

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

Another reason why Frieza training for 4 months on his own raising his power from 23mil to STRONGER than SSB is absolutely insane. Not only did Frieza's race NOT have more growth potential than Saiyans (hence why he blew them up), FRIEZA ISNT A WARRIOR! He does not know how train effectively hes definitely more like Vegeta than Goku when it comes to training strats

[@shawn092182]

Frieza's race doesn't have more growth potential than Saiyans. He and his father were mutants, and that's why they were powerful. Frieza himself was a prodigy, hence why he is able to get extremely powerful after training for a short period.

[@felldoh9271]

That is true and also Frieza training is narratively bad because it clashes too much with his character (spoiled prodigy who deems training beneath him)/bloodline (mutants). Similar to how Yoda using a lightsaber clashes too much with his character as pointed out in this video:

[@shawn092182]

@felldoh9271 When he's beneath a "monkey," he had to do what he had to do, swallow his pride and train.

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

@@shawn092182 Its been proven in DBZ that there are diminishing returns with solo training especially if you dont know how to train smart like Vegeta Frieza is more of a prodigy than Vegeta so his training methods will be even worse. Maybe if he would've trained with his scientists and experts in the 10year pocket dimension but he did his own training and raised his powerlevel by orders of magnitude. Nonsense.

[@shawn092182]

@@jdrmanmusiqking Nonsense. Frieza didn't train by himself.

[@epicstar86]

yooooo, I got to watch this when it got uploaded :>

[@Sonstbenannt]

Bro thanks for beeing my inner voice expressed outside for the world.

[@De1ved]

Very good video. Besides the points you mentioned, I would like to add that I believe Future Trunks in the manga couldn't go SSJ2 despite having the rage triggers to do so like when Gohan died is because he hadn't pushed past and mastered SSJ1. Present Gohan could because he was trained right and had already pushed the first form to it's limits, couple that with his hybrid potential and rage trigger and you have SSJ2. It all comes down to the hardships and lack of proper training for Trunks... He is still the best boy though IMO.

[@kamenrangerzeo8251]

The plots that was used in the cell saga for the vegeta and trunks vs cell was dumb all because they wanted gohan to get the win. Plus I never agreed with cell's statement that as long as a single fragment of his being was still around he can regenerate AKA his core which he said was in his head. And I don't care if they said like well he moved his core down to his legs to survive the blast like unless he can somehow move his own cells that quickly to avoid Goku's attack then it's just for plot purposes.

[@Chronoflation]

This is true. They definitely pull some plothole BS to give Gohan the win, but the story of the arc is still solid. Though, a bit underwhelming since it's supposed to be about Trunks saving the present so he can save the future and the developing Trunks to save the future became pretty much sidelined. I know all of Z was basically building to the point where Gohan could become the new hero character up to this point, and while it could've written better leading into that to not have the BS points it ended up having like Cell surviving his head getting blown off (I would've just said any of his cells surviving could let him regenerate and not 1 particular nucleus cell in his head for that one), but they really did leave behind a big part of that arc. It did loom over the arc with the time machine and references and stories made about the future, but very little is done for the purpose of saving the future the way it's kinda built up. At least it got its conclusion with Trunks saving the day and killing Cell too.

[@jaredsumpter4629]

Judging when trunks transforms based off of a rubber band disintegrating is wild. Of it wasn't there feom jump he would look the same like in bojack movie.. or like at cell games when his hair isn't bound looks the same

[@ejeverett4322]

Toriama literally said Vegetas final flash was the most powerful blast on all of cell saga. So your wrong it was enough to kill him

[@jacobpohlabel4156]

I really would have liked to see an alternate scenario where vegeta trained with gohan, and goku with trunks, or even vegeta and goku, and trunks and gohan. That would have been a cool what if story

[@peppermint7152]

I think there's a flaw in the argument about Vegeta not being able to finish Cell with that Final Flash. Both Goku and Vegeta had to contend with the same problem: a direct hit would've also destroyed the earth. This is the reason Goku's kamehameha vaporized Cell's upper half--but left the rest untouched. He aimed his blast upward to ensure it didn't connect with the earth itself. His instant transmission wasn't just to catch Cell off guard; it also ensured he could angle the blast properly. Moreover, the Cell that Vegeta unleashed on was likely far more suppressed than the version that Goku was contending with. Note that I'm also not saying that Vegeta's Final Flash could've finished Cell for sure, but at best the answer seems inconclusive. I personally suspect it would've destroyed him almost completely, but just enough would have remained for Cell to regenerate. ... which could've just made matters worse, in true Vegeta fashion.

[@robinthrush9672]

And Cell moved to dodge it when he saw the power of it.

[@Logan_97]

There are some impactful differences between the styles and kinds of training of Goku und Vegeta. Cut very short: Goku works as smart as possible and as hard as beneficial. He wants balance and efficiency to make to best out of his gains. Vegeta works as hard as possible. He tried to max out his STR as far as possible. Cut short I. Goku focused on the weakneses of SSJ & it's known forms and more om material arts. He also had the advantage, bc Vegeta and Trunks went in first. Addiotionally Goku had a lot of different masters who taught him much and especially how to be a master himself. He is much more willingly to learn from others. While he was Gohans master, he also was learning from Gohan. Saiyans grow way stronger when sparring compared to solo training. So Goku and Gohan grew a lot stronger over time and got rid of the SSJ rage & stamina issue. A calm fighter reacts more adequate. (Just don't forget the significant role of Rageboosts in DB) The spiritual motivation make a huge diffrence as well. Goku is calm, relaxed and confident. He grows stronger as a need, not as a desire. And last the most important thing: Goku enjoys what he's doing. He loves to spent time with his son. He loves to be weaker, to become stronger! He loves training. Never underestimate the power of love and joy. II. Vegeta put his focus at raw strength. He wants to be the strongest but neglects technique. He has a big disadvantage because he never trained under a master and would never do in these days. This includes asking Goku about his achievement. His pride didn’t allow it. His methods must be the best by default. A huge disadvantage is also that he was ignoring Trunks entirely. Vegeta tried to force him self to be stronger. He went for brute strength and the SSJ feeling as a power driver. When it comes to spiritual motivation, Vegeta is the opposite of Goku. He is a hothead with self-esteem issues. His trauma is really clouding his mind. It's a total chaos. He worksout bc he cant stand beeing weak. He hates him (or the illusion he thinks at this point he is) beeig weak. He is driven by hate, his (in this times) false sense of pride and his psychological complex. Hate can be strong thing to keep you going, but if you hate yourself, it will just block your potential and drag you down. Long version Video

[@naturalgains4229]

What’s funny is both Goku AND Vegeta knew about the speed detriments of grade 3. They just took different approaches. Vegeta compromised by staying at grade 2 which was definitely more powerful than super saiyan while Goku wanted to master the original super saiyan form so he could use the forms true power without tiring himself out.

[@user-te9ym5ky3iBagman2.0]

To be honest I like the fact that you had to die To achieve the beyond The beyond super Saiyan

[@freck2614]

What are you on about?

[@flametoxin9026]

i think he's saying the fact that the saiyans went through intense training to get the grades of ssj

[@baddworld]

You mean like ssj3

[@danielhenry4365]

Gohan always had better training than F. Trunks/F. Gohan. And let's not forget that Guru unlocked Gohan's (and Krillin's) potential on Namek. Look at how strong F. Trunks got after his first potential unlocking training (via the Z Sword) - his SS2 form rivaled a post-BoG SS3 Goku.

[@tomdibernardo1699]

i always consider grade 4 in head cannon as brolys legendary SS form the massive increase of strength without the loss of speed trunks had in grade 3

[@vnep5743]

Say Trunks had achieved SS2. This could be during his first fight with Perfect Cell or sometime later where he decides to go at Cell alone. Though he puts up a good fight, Trunks still loses as he doesn't have the ki control or reserves to maintain it or even the training to effectively use it. I think that one of two things happen. He's better prepared for if a stronger fighter has also achieved it and he wins. Or he is even more surprised when Gohan transforms as he would initially have Trunks for his baseline comparison, who Gohan would greatly surpass in every way.

[@corey2232]

Also, if Trunks didn't have any real training or experience, doesn't that make it all the more impressive he managed to achieve SSJ in his timeline? Even kid Gohan received far more training in his life than Trunks, so I like to think Trunks had far more untapped potential than people give him credit for.

[@atleyflenner]

I always wondered why Vegeta did not use SSJ grade 3 during the beam struggle with gohan and cell? Seems like he could have gone all out with cell not being able to move.

[@AnEpicFatalityArchives]

How do you have time to post everyday like this

[@qjtvaddict]

Your base form determines the power of your ssj power as those are just multipliers

[@xReMi13x]

what most people dont take into consideration in the debate between who is stronger between goku & vegeta is their base power levels. for the vast majority of the time in Z, vegetas base power level is stronger than gokus. goku relied heavily of transformations & multipliers all throughout the series to “surpass” vegeta. only on namek was gokus base power level actually stronger than vegetas base power level. (& maybe after the hbtc, which is debatable because goku really mastered the ssj transformation & was able to tap into grade 4 which is a multiplier) i wouldnt say goku trains more efficiently than vegeta, goku just knows how to train in order to capitalize on transformations & techinques. its like he has a list of cheat codes to reach his training goals quickly whereas vegeta has to grind to get there. the ssj transformation is a 50x base multiplier. by the time vegeta reaches ssj at the beginning of the android arc, his base power level is much higher than gokus because of his intense training at 400x earths gravity. at this point in the series, vegeta has the strongest base power level of all the Z fighters alone. his ssj transformation multiplies that & then puts him well ahead of goku, regardless of the heart virus. again, for the majority of the time in Z & super, vegeta has the stronger base power level in comparison to goku. goku just has far more techniques & transformations that allow him to multiply his power which makes him always seem like the strongest of the two. but every time vegeta has achieved the same transformation after goku, vegeta ends up being the stronger of the two in each form. i mean come on, if vegeta can surpass an ssj3 goku, which is a 400x base multiplier, in an enraged ssj2 form which is 100x base multiplier + rage boost, its clear his base power level is stronger

[@mmaaoorr]

Some wasted potential with the grades is the characters not trying to learn to transform to them for just a second for an attack. Kinda like with kaioken, transforming to be stronger for a split second and then downgrading to normal ssj

[@adamwade6243]

Before Son Goku, Vegeta, Son Gohan, and Future Trunks had entered and then trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, SSJ Son Goku was slightly stronger than SSJ Vegeta, SSJ Vegeta was slightly stronger than SSJ Future Trunks, Son Gohan was much weaker than Son Goku, Vegeta, and Future Trunks were in their respective Base Forms, and SSJ Future Trunks was slightly stronger than SSJ Son Goku was during the Trunks Saga. But after Son Goku, Vegeta, Son Gohan, and Future Trunks had entered and then trained in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, FPSSJ Son Goku was slightly weaker than FPSSJ Son Gohan, ASSJ Vegeta was slightly stronger than ASSJ Future Trunks, FPSSJ Son Gohan was slightly stronger than FPSSJ Son Goku, and ASSJ Future Trunks was slightly weaker than ASSJ Vegeta, but ASSJ Future Trunks was slightly stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell.

[@Chronoflation]

Gohan thought Goku was just warming up when he fought Cell. Goku was less than "slightly weaker" than SSJ Gohan. If he actually chose to fight Cell, SSJ Gohan probably would've done really well and maybe even won, considering a half power SSJ2 beat Super Perfect Cell. SSJ Gohan was mad slept on just cause he refused to fight. If he put in half the effort he put into fighting Frieza it'd have been a pretty decent fight, at minimum

[@ShockToYoSystem]

He was weezing more then weezing🤣🤣🤣🤣, my boy weezin downbad⚡️

[@arrownoir]

I still prefer super Vegeta to mastered Super Saiyan. In fact, I would say it’s more iconic than mastered SSJ, since the latter was just a gateway into SSJ2 and was completely overshadowed by it.

[@pangeaforever]

I dont think you have access to the same volume of ki between grade 2 and grade 3. I think each transformation is like a door and unless you open that next door, that portion of your overall ki is simply off limits. Thats why when goku first transformed, he went from completely drained, to being fully functioning, it was a second-wind

[@cellandbuuaremyfavoritedbz1542]

imagine if vegeta and trunks didn't trained , semi perfect cell would one shot them both

[@dannylopez5976]

Well as for Cell blocking Vegeta's attacks, it may have literally been just him blocking because he wants to see if he can. You know warming up.

[@great159]

Trunks and Vegeta DID train together in the manga. It's filler in the anime that said they didn't train together🤓

[@specialnewb9821]

Grade 2 Trunks struggled against Semi Perfect Cell BECAUSE he didn't power up for 5 minutes. With Trunks after he trains with Shin he starts really sky rocketing in power compare his SSJ2 to Goku divine-bodied 3 and keeping up against Zamasu. It makes sense because Hybrids have immense power and after the Kai training Gohan also got huge boosts. The kai training just suits hybrids

[@millgiass]

If Vegeta actually broke that barrier he SHOULD have done it when he hit Cell with the Final Flash.

[@Goatcha_M]

The problem with classifying the muscle forms as just ascended Super Saiyan is that it ignores the fact that its not an ability unique to Super Saiyans. Master Roshi has been demonstrating the same ability since the Fire Mountain arc of Dragon Ball. It is a technique, not a form. Roshi's Max Power muscular form which he only uses for huge Kamehameha waves large enough to destroy mountains or The Moon is the Grade 3 and Grade 2 is the slightly boosted form he uses against Tien.

[@swastikbiswas2121]

Is this video re uploaded?

[@elpeebee4076]

Hey saiyan! I have been watching your videos a lot 2 years ago and did comment a few times to tell you how good you were at it ! And you were kind and cool enough to leave a heart and answer my comment. I did watch once in a while since then but coming back now it’s still clear how good you are at making logic and valid argument even if you have hot take sometimes. Keep going bro I told you you could make a good career out of it if you use the full extent of your talent, and in fact now you have more than double the subscriber from back then so I wasn’t wrong. I’m glad for you. Truly.

[@jacobpohlabel4156]

The only reason it appeared to fair better against cell than vegeta did, was because Cell ALLOWED him to.

[@anon2407]

Goku's tranquil's type of power ups aren't Vegeta's style. Hence why he didn't want to even go for Ultra Instinct and for Ultra Ego instead.

[@michaellamonica2403]

To be fair... Goku and Gohan absolutely should have finished the year and went in again. Yes the did increase to there max at the time but as we know they can get stronger. Sayians have no limits so chances are if they trained again then Goku likely could have closed the gap between him and Cell. Plus Gohan too. Honestly just get the extra credit and the much more secure win

[@benbob9759]

What song is this 0:00 - 0:04? 🔥

[@great159]

Grade 2, 3, ect are NOT transformations, they are power ups. Vegeta and Trunks did what Frieza did on Namek in his true form. Vegeta was at 50% SSJ1 power when he fought Cell and Trunks was at 100% max power against Cell🤓

[@yournumberonepal]

If Super Saiyan is a multiplier, it should only matter what your base form power is, this arc, IMO, busted that logic.

[@SSpider41]

The two potential unlocks gohan got wouldve made a massive difference too. Plus the future timeline folk are just overall weaker than the main timeline.

[@devildavin]

Trunks in the chamber with Vegeta ignoring him. the second time Trunks should have gone in with Piccolo. better chance of them working together and if Adult Gohan held piccolo in just a high regard as Goku. i could see trunks wanting some real training from piccolo and i don't see piccolo turning down a chance to be a teacher again.

[@marcosduran4169]

Cell dodged Vegeta final flash because he knew that would have killed him

[@John-jc3ty]

trunks could have attacked vegeta in the time chamber so that vegeta would be forced to fight him

[@ariancontreras4358]

I always thought they were equal in terms of power. Vegeta does have a better battle sense due to experience so he is stronger but not in the traditional Power Level kind of way. Of course I am talking about the Cell Saga only.

[@MrKevin486]

Ultra Mega Saiyan! 😮

[@JayJay-de5jv]

Great review didn’t realliW how much defense cell has I swear he’s the best villain too bad his programming can’t go pass ssj2 btw every single fight with cell was jaw dropping android saga-cell saga my favorite never recreated maybe the Zamasu arc came closest then TOP

[@brizzy5star]

Cells programming wasn’t limited to just ssj2 level if you’re trying to say that then your very wrong. Cell was dangerous he could’ve kept getting stronger through training and exploiting saiyan zenkais. Gohan killed cell before he could get to powerful this is clear as day. Cell was a culmination of the greatest warriors of the universe 7 at the time he could’ve became a God literally just with the dna he’s possesses alone.

[@danielhenry4365]

I always saw the Ascended forms as: Grade 2: a "preview" of the whole package of SS2 = increased power/speed, decreased stamina. Grade 3: a preview as well, but only to the full raw power of SS2 = drastic power increase, drastic decrease in speed and stamina. Sure, having SS2 power is nice, but what's the point of having a nuclear bomb without a proper tracking system and fuel/energy to land it? These ascended forms are just desperate, improper ways in attempt to reach true SS2 that come with benefit as well as hindrances. Now obviously, Grade 3 F. Trunks is inferior to actual SS2 Gohan's power due to him being weaker in general compared to Gohan. Plus, it's well received that Gohan had an additional boost via his rage to go alongside his SS2.

[@Vaelithe]

Super Vegeta is almost like it's own transformation and Trunks never used it he just went ultimate. We see Goku touch it in the chamber on his way to ultimate but nobody else uses it as a distinct variation of ssj1 except Vegito. Vegetas training was focused on trying to find a way to optimize this new idea of having the power from the ultimate Ssj but without the speed drawback like Trunks. Goku and Gohan didn't do this and instead focused on maintaining plain Ssj. The colors changed a bit but it's still just Ssj. Alright, back to the video!

[@Vaelithe]

I forgot about that. Cheers! 17:55

[@ryanball8944]

Wait, SSJ Vegeta vs SSJ Trunks is something that's been debated for decades? When? How? And most importantly, why? The answer isn't exactly hidden

[@joshuamedina7292]

Gohan had his potential unlocked by Guru so perhaps that made the difference for unlocking ssj2

[@juantiller1762]

I think he change for example in the manga he wasn’t training in pure strength but technique

[@Chiry1980]

None of you got VegetaTFS joke: "Power levels are bullshit".

[@digitaladventurer2142]

Yeah agree with all your statements but Vegeta also tended to overtrain. Even in real life if you train 24/7 your actually gonna start hurting yourself more then help. The body needs time to rest and recover from intense workouts. Vegeta spent a year in the harsh environment of the time chamber then left fought a big battle against Cell, them basically went right back in and trained again. This also happened with Trunks. So yeah being so much more worn down on the 2nd trip would stunt their training progress. This is actually what Whis would criticize Vegeta on later stating his habit of always being in tense mindset and never really relaxing kept him from fighting at full power and why he always lost out to Goku.

[@funtomental2823]

"Would that make them double unscented?"

[@CC-bn2ws]

Only thing I disagree with is the argument that grade 2 VS grade 3 ki pool is the same for vegeta. If you go with this, then you could say it's the same pool for normal form too. One could say, as he was charging the final flash, he was also powering up and drawing from grade 3 as well. Of course the ki pool would increase, that's why krillin could sense so much more power coming from trunks new form. Just like ssj3, the pool goes up, and burns faster. Think of ssj as a jeep with a gun, grade 2 as a hummer with a bigger gun, it's stronger and at least equally as fast as a jeep if not faster. And grade 3 as a tank, biggest gun but definitely slower.

[@CGImpala]

100% plot against Vegeta specifically. Even in recent arcs, it would seem like it would make more sense for Vegeta to have the advantage by how the writing starts out but then the writing turns on it's head to make no sense just so Goku or someone else is somehow stronger than Vegeta. Constant retcons or plot holes just to keep Vegeta second at best.

[@chimericalical]

Grade 4 is one of the dumbest names for a form in DB. Grades 1-3 make sense. 2 is a buffed up enhanced version of 1, and 3 is a buffed version of 2. Grade 4 isn’t the next step from 3. It’s a different form of grade 2. From grade 1 you can either go to Grade 2 or mastered grade 1.

[@felldoh9271]

That’s a great point that nobody talks about.

[@felldoh9271]

To take it even further, there’s no reason why a saiyan could not master ssj before reaching Grade 2.

[@brovid-19]

Vegetter, he's like Vegetta.. but _Vegetter_

[@SaiyanScholar]

Would you like a glass of Waaahtuuur? Or maybe a Cheese and T-may-toe pizza?

[@brovid-19]

@@SaiyanScholar no one says those like that, at all. And cheese is not a topping it's a requisite ingredient to even be considered a pizza.

[@solo-pro]

the second time, goku and vegeta should have gone in together. hash things out.

[@sisyphus4889]

Bro how did you make a 40 minute video out of this?

[@jonmorris7595]

I get so sick oh how people say Kamehameha. The technic is not pronounced ka-me-ha-me-HA! That is what is said to use the attack. Leave the H off of it. "HA" is what is said to launch the beam. The way it sounds like it's spelled while talking about it in the anime is "Ka-me-a-me-a" I am not sure on the Manga.

[@kyleanderson449]

And your theory for people having the same pool of ki falls short in many spots. First off the original super saiyan is way to far a jump. It's literally 50x. No one no matter their ki use can maintain a 50x multiplier without a transformation. Not even close. Second super saiyan 2 can definitely put out a higher max than any of the grades. It's obvious that super saiyan enhances the ki that you have, not just uses more of it. Then you have god ki. God form enhances what you have by concentrating it. Similar to the kioken. Yet they still can enhance it by going blue. Merely using god ki is supposed to be ultimate control already. The power increase has to come from somewhere. And that's supposedly another 50x.

[@rickytickytempo]

I think because Gohan is half human but not from a normal human blood line aka ox king he has a huge advantage compared to trunks

[@ghostwriter1440]

I’d very much like it if trunks was actually the stronger of the two, when I was young I thought trunks was clearly the stronger of the two at that time but looking back he wasn’t any more powerful than vegeta at the time and that by virtue of combat experience vegeta would be the superior fighter. That being said vegeta at the time is a complete heel and trunks is actually a hero

[@OtherDude]

Ya know I really prefer the old names ascended and ultra super saiyan, instead of grade 2 and grade 3.

[@joshuamedina7292]

As far as gokus kids vs vegeta's kids you have to look at the mothers for the difference maker. Chichi is a skilled fighter vs bolma being a scientist. Yes i realized i probably massacred the spelling

[@ssomega75]

What went wrong with trunk and vegeta? Toriyama 😂

[@joshuamedina7292]

Umm goku was super saiyan even while sleeping and the reason why goku and gohan came out stronger was because they trained/ spared together rather than separate like vegeta and trunks

[@JayJay-de5jv]

Perfect Cell vs Gohan ssj2 Perfect Cell goes grade 3 or if anyone remembers bulks up pretty massively right before gohan kicks 18 out of him if I’m correct grade 4 saiyains should be able to bulk up please anyone comment

[@patrickk1417]

Final flash is like final fantasy, never actually the final one.

[@vaultboy5492]

whos vegeter?

[@Marcus_shawn]

They should've trained together..had that did that the first time they would've been way stronger than kakarot and Gohan were... Vegeta and kakarot saw the weakness of grade 3 and said nah... just like he saw the weakness of ssj 3 and skipped it

[@felldoh9271]

Grade 3 Trunks was faster than Grade 2 Vegeta (also Android 16 [in the anime at least] marvels how fast Trunks and Cell are, whereas with Vegeta he did not do that because Vegeta could not even hang with Cell like Trunks did, and Vegeta was Grade 2 so he should have been faster [and you cannot argue that Vegeta was keeping his distance from Cell for two reasons 1. He could not do so even if he wanted to 2. He did not realize how much stronger Cell was so he did not know to keep away from him] than Grade 3 Trunks). Also right after Gohan turns ssj2 (at the end of the episode called Children of Cell Attack) you see Vegeta face down on the ground against ONE Cell Jr and then you see Trunks in the air pausing his fight against TWO Cell Jrs.