Super Saiyan - The Broken Form Of Dragon Ball Z

[@RÅNÇIÐ]

Honestly I wouldn't have minded if we had never gotten another Saiyan transformations after the original Super Saiyan. Would have preserved the legendary gravitas of that once supposedly one-in-a-million-years transformation. Every form after that should have some combo of SSJ, Kaioken, Ozaru, fusion and whatever new thing they could have come up. Would have been way more interesting than just coming up with another Saiyan every arc.

[@veryangryboi4128]

I think SSJ 2 should've been the last super sayian transformation and they transformation to it by rage but can't do it willing

[@TheLuconic]

Also don’t let kids get it. I’m looking at you kid Trunks and Goten. That’s where it really became more of a toy than a legendary form.

[@TheLuconic]

Honestly, ssj3 needed more respect and ssj2 needed to be shown longer.

[@themanx6019]

@@TheLuconic kids should get it , but they should still have to have it awakened by sorrow, sadness or anger like future trunks

[@kendallpeebles7481]

@@themanx6019 God no. DB was already self depricating by giving these children SS. Hell, the other universe saiyans had to be taught but children can learn it? So nobody has ever gotten really angry before? The angriest race of aliens I know, never did this? It baffles me how an entire planet couldn't figure this out before it's destruction by Freeza and the worse part is, it could've all been avoided if the writing was better.

[@GMP1isReal]

I do think Cooler's Revenge and GT had the best portrayal of both base form and Super Saiyan at the same time. Base form showing up for the majority and being a badass with kaioken occasionally for that slight push, and Super Saiyan when things really were dire.

[@M3rtyville]

Cooler's Revenge Super Saiyan transformation made it feel like a mythical form that appears in your darkest hour. Such a good movie to be honest.

[@banana-bi5zq]

Hell yes with that sweet ol Disturbed and Drowning Pool blasting in the background

[@Chaperone2eZ]

@@banana-bi5zq change is a banger

[@tuckergrimes4189]

@@M3rtyville so like ultra instinct in the top anime

[@M3rtyville]

@@tuckergrimes4189 no, that was dogshit

[@dgoons]

He could have easily made kaioken times 4 the limit but I feel like 20 was needed to show the audience that goku was pushing himself to the absolute limit and he was still running out of options. Kaioken times 20 actually left a mark to showing that defeating frieza wasn’t completely out of the question until he mentions he’s only using 50 percent or something like that. In other words what I’m trying to say is that it was needed to make super saiyan feel as powerful as it truly was

[@Arbron]

He goes 50% before KK x20. That said, it still makes your point by only briefly letting Goku match Frieza. It was clear that something else would be necessary.

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

I dont understand how people make these arguments... Like... You know these are fictional characters right? Literally everything about their existence is controlled by the writers they didnt HAVE to do anything they CHOSE to be terrible writers All they had to do was make Kaio Ken x5 have the effect on frieza that x20 have then boom. Make SSJ a x15 multiplier and the absurdity is curbed

[@dgoons]

@@jdrmanmusiqking how are you going to call him a terrible writer for giving power jumps like he always has in the series. If kaioken times 5 could touch frieza then kaioken times 4 should have been able to as well. Goku just from the recovery jumps from 90000 to 3 million in power which is a 30+ times increase in power before he even meets frieza. At the beginning of the saiyan saga goku jumps from a power lvl of around 500 to 8 thousand which is a 16 times increase to his base power, with kaioken x4 he it means he got 500+ times stronger in the saiyan saga alone. Like I said kaioken x20 was there to prove goku was running out of options and proving that frieza wasn’t an opponent that his regular methods were not going to work on, he needed something more powerful. Don’t call him a bad writer because of your nit picks about the way he’s been writing from the beginning .

[@jdrmanmusiqking]

@@dgoons I... Dont get what im reading here... So... Hes not a terrible writer because hes consistent done the same terrible thing? That logic doesnt hold dude. Remember, anytime you hear the phrase "wrote themselves into a corner" thats almost always indicative of bad writing (Like Naruto with Madera and the Kaguya dibacle smdh on that one. Another "wrote myself into a corner" moment Like i said, the writers didnt HAVE to make the power jumps as ridiculous as they made them. Dude didnt HAVE to make frieza so friggen strong Dude these arent real characters living their lives the writers decide everything

[@dgoons]

@@jdrmanmusiqking what don’t you understand? You are nit picking the power scales and your reasoning made it seem like what he did was out of the ordinary but I showed you that he’s always done that consistently. It’s not terrible for someone to get a 20 times boost in the middle of the fight if the whole series is full of power jumps like that. Akira didn’t write himself into a corner he just made the multiplayer fit the fight. This show is a about characters shattering there limits through battle not just going a little above them. And your right, he didn’t have to make frieza that strong but it’s his story and that’s how powerful he always makes his villains (beerus 3 tapped goku, android 17 1 shotted trunks, cell after reaching his 2nd form could stand still in front of android 16 without even blinking, after reaching his 3rd form cell took on vegeta’s strongest attack and was able to live un hurt, beerus after getting mad in the manga 1 combo’d a complete ssb vegeta and after that arc jiren was able to one shot him dbs broly while fighting vegeta was able to get 50 times stronger in less than 10 seconds) those are all situations in dragon ball where there are crazy power differences so frieza being that strong isn’t out of the ordinary and it doesn’t make him a bad writer for it. Stop nit picking and just enjoy the show

[@danwentz3283]

Honestly ssj is still my favorite transformation. It was just so badass when Goku first achieved it and it paved the way for all the other transformations after it!

[@christopherballero866]

I didn't have much of a problem with the DBZ power scaling but it was extremely crazy in hindsight. To be fair I wasn't at the time interested in how much stronger Super Saiyan was stronger than said base form. My problem is more with how Super had almost everyone having to compete with Blue though almost no one had nearly Goku nor Vegeta's battle experience. Some of the big examples of my issue with Frieza are: Frieza, Kale, Caulifla, Kefla, Zamasu/Rose, and Broly. How could someone with no experience compete with a supposedly absurdly strong god. Saiyan Scholar does make a really great argument though

[@TrippieMint]

Isn’t goku the same guy who beat someone with the ability to stop time by just increasing his powerlevel a bit

[@mandalorianhunter1]

Frieza species are on the same level as the Saiyans and his biology allows him to get stronger fast. He was just never forced to train so hard

[@christopherballero866]

@@TrippieMint it was more than a little bit but even that made no sense u can't just over power time and punch it in the face

[@christopherballero866]

@@mandalorianhunter1 4 months of training does not put u around the same level as a god especially not when Frieza couldn't beat Super Saiyan on Namek.

[@TrippieMint]

@@christopherballero866 Frieza literally trained by beating up one of his minions if he got some actual training and did it for a year or two he would be beyond the gods of destructions

[@Figure002]

Compared to many forms in other animes and comics, Super Saiyan is still considered pretty strong. Little to no drawback and raw 50 times multiplier. Crazy. Edit: _Oh my God I have started another debate._

[@SoraX66z]

Not the real multiplier.

[@MeikaiX]

@@SoraX66z It is lmao

[@GogitoGTHD]

@@SoraX66z goofy probably still believes in the 500x multiplier or some random 65x thing

[@priestesslucy]

@@MeikaiX No, it's not. Super Saiyan doesn't have a static multiplier, it's a forceful extraction of a portion of the user's latent potential. As the base grows stronger, the relative value of Super Saiyan drops. SSJ isn't a static power level, it does grow with the user as they train, but it grows _far slower than the base._

[@GMP1isReal]

Which is why it always bothered me. If the story ended with the Freeza saga, then fair enough, but what little drawback there was other than a very arbitrary "get tired eventually" made it to where you have to wonder why Goku didn't stick to his Cell Games plan of staying in Super Saiyan 24/7. It outclassed everything, and the only thing to surpass it is a bigger number. It's why Kaioken and SSJ3 were far more interesting to me with their costs, but we're stick with Super Saiyan colored blue

[@diddly-squat9332]

I noticed all those problems, when I was trying to make an RPG out of the series, back when DBZ ended. It's just ridiculous, when I had all the statistics in front of me... No matter how I tried to do it, it was just too much. I had to start thinking on a new scale system for all the forms, and when Resurrection F came out, I had to throw away everything once again, because Blue destroyed the scale even more, it was Namek all over again, but on steroids!

[@RaphielShiraha64]

Did you ever finished it mate? sounds very interesting

[@diddly-squat9332]

@@RaphielShiraha64 @FlandreScarlet64 Nope 🤣 I'm trying to build a scale from lowest to highest, for now a non linear system looks the best solution, a logarithmic one like the Richter Scale (the idea came from the Combat Scale used by Lucas in both OT and PT). But the main problem comes from transformations and multipliers, and since new forms keep popping up, it's a hard job. Specially if you have to make sense of how Saiyans and Freeza race people work.

[@HydraBread]

I would recommend not scaling them to canon multipliers. xD Go much lower like 1.2x Also if I may make another recommendation forcing you to start a fight in base and work up to super saiyan over a few turns would make the form feel less like a reskin and more like a badass form change.

[@diddly-squat9332]

@@HydraBread yes, I very quickly put aside Canon multipliers, they are insane! As for Super Saiyan, there are requirements for each grade and also other transformations. Some are dictated more by role some by mechanics, but I have to change a lot of things, since Battle of Gods changed everything. And I'm also unsure on all the various iterations of SS1 and SSBlue, I don't know if I should just skip them and keep it simple or not.

[@cotocoyerakson8195]

Reject God bullshit and return to monkey. You can use SSJ 4 as the final and original form instead of the new ones.

[@Toronja_Arenosa]

You have to consider Freezer Saga as the end of the show, with that in mind I don't think Kaio Ken and Ssj1 are ridiculous. It was a good way to state that the super Saiyan was a legendary form and the final form of Goku's powers. I think the problem is that DBZ continued after that saga and Toriyama had to roll and deal with characters surpassing power limits they were never supposed to surpass.

[@anthonycapo1998]

I would say the Freeza saga was actually the best saga. I have a soft spot for the cell saga too

[@veryangryboi4128]

@@anthonycapo1998 cell saga is my favorite but I think frezia saga is better written

[@keenankersh7944]

The thing is, the Cell saga was a major character arc for Gohan, which fits into some themes of the later parts of Z. Ssj2 is to that, what ssj1 is to the Frieza saga. Still, these both really brought power creep with them in the following arcs. Still, super saiyan would've been a pretty badass ending to the series.

[@bovineintervention6001]

Toriyama did not plan to end the story on namek. He fully intended to end it with gohan surpassing goku, which happened at the end of the cell saga. *That* was the original intended ending

[@josephkingman523]

"Thenonoy way to beat cell is you gohan" *Super saiyan kaioken sitting in the corner*

[@MrXCoolManX]

I always felt like Super Saiyan was more flexible than the generic numbers we get. Saiyans with strong emotions get a big increase in power especially shown with Gohan. Namek SS Goku was pissed. Cell SS2 Gohan was vengeful. As for Kaioken, I can see that being applicable to intense short workouts, you'll get better at it as time goes on. Sure it'll lessen your life expectancy but you'll live through it. This is why Kaioken training to Namek helped as much as it did, he nearly completely broke his body several times and completely healed it better than new. Maybe the power creep would have been a lot smaller if the Android saga was written better. Like maybe a month Goku masters Instant Transmission and returns to Earth without being able to turn Super Saiyan, but still is strong enough to take on Cyborg Freeza with Kaioken (he's nearly the strength of Super Saiyan with Kaioken x 20, even if Trunks could take him down). Would make the quest for Super Saiyan much better for all Saiyans and make the Androids much weaker. No need for Hyperbolic Time Chamber for the Cyborgs until Cell. This would make everyone stronger human, Saiyan, and Namekian closer in power to each other. Perfect Cell is relatively the same strength. Piccolo would be the King in strength until Gohan gets SS2. Android Saga had a lot of editorial changes and it shows, good thing Cell was a good villain.

[@veryangryboi4128]

So basically drag out the arc like the buu saga?

[@MrXCoolManX]

No, effectively it would be the same except Super Saiyan would be the goal of everyone. And there wouldn't be a three year time skip, something like a month. Eventually they get it but are still a bit weaker than 16, 17, and 18.

[@veryangryboi4128]

@@MrXCoolManX so the same arc expect everyone is nerfed lol interesting....

[@priestesslucy]

@@veryangryboi4128 that's a good thing. It's called maintaining a relevant cast

[@veryangryboi4128]

@@priestesslucy they don't need a higher power level to be relevant,just need good writing.the namek and cell sagas did this

[@supersaiyangodshallot8742]

Sometimes I find it hard to believe it multiplies the Saiyan's base form by x50. Akira Toriyama wanted the Super Saiyan form multiplier to be x10, but Daizenshuu 7 stated to be x50. They could've made that kaioken uses a lot ki as raise the kaioken multiplier, meaning they should've made Goku use Kaioken x10 to easily beat 50% Frieza, but ran out of ki, that way everything of power levels after the Frieza saga would've divided by x5. If Super Saiyan multiplier was x10, then SS2 will be x25, SS3 will be x100, and SS4 will be x1,000.

[@priestesslucy]

It's not a static x50. Daizenshuu took the power increase it gave Goku on Namek and ran with it, turning it into Kaioken 2.0 when that's not how it works

[@kuru-yami9416]

@@priestesslucy i agree. especially since its litterally shown that ssj can be improved in power and stability. i estimate mssj is at bare minimum 200X base. mssj/ssj grade for is technically Still SSJ1 which makes the people saying its only 50X make no sense at all.

[@priestesslucy]

@@kuru-yami9416 well, we do both agree that SSJ Grade 4 is FAR more powerful than Grade 1. By the Android Saga Goku and Vegeta are getting WAY less out of Grade 1. x10 or less imo. I suppose I could see Grade 4 going up to around x100 at this point Of course over the course of the 7 year timeskip Goku and Vegeta train their way up to making Grade 4 a relatively minor (by comparison to that) powerup again

[@a180combatbowsergamepro6]

j

[@cotocoyerakson8195]

The SSJ 4 could be permanent metamorfose. Like: This is the true nature of a saiyan. How their ancestors look after something happened and they start to loose power, special abilitys and the super saiyans 1, 2 and 3 was the first steps to achieve the ascient power. In a fight against Baby that would be awesome cause Tsufurujins have a long story of battle with the saiyans.

[@streptococo4735]

In hindsight, it is amazing how Toriyama made a somewhat consistent and dare i say admirable power scalling until the Frieza Saga in which he maintained lore consistency al the way, he actually managed to live up to the expectations of what a Super Saiyan was supposed to be, BUT THEN he started going for 'wow value' and 'the coolest thing i can do' instead of consistency, which honestly breaks DBZ horribly, which was pretty consistent in an extremelly improvised way since Toriyama never had an actual plan, just whatever idea seemed better.

[@veryangryboi4128]

Y'all act like power levels ruin the series

[@lewispooper3138]

@@veryangryboi4128 they did

[@schooled9543]

Once again, you're one of the most helpful KZbinr's for DB information and introspective, this video among others have helped massively with my writing regarding the series for my own personal projects! Great work!

[@ramenbomberdeluxe4958]

I don’t mind there being upgrades or variants, and OG SSJ God was based as hell, one of my faves next to SSJ3, but holy hell is it too much nowadays. Hell it was too much at one point BACK THEN too, one of the only times even Z dropped the Dragon Ball If Kaio Ken led to it, at least Kaio Ken on its own was a great and balanced ability in concept.

[@magne7771]

The way I see it, Red Kaioken should've been the way to go. Sure, it probably isn't as much of a _flat multiplier_ as Blue, but as far as we can tell, the blue god form doesn't _heal._ Just by following the logic, Goku's a Saiyan. Kaioken strains the body more & more with each multiplier. He could use crazy splitsecond multipliers, with the only drawback being, basically cooldown time. Imagine if he spent a year in the time chamber, training that combination the way he did with super saiyan before facing Cell. He'd scale over time like a bootleg Broly. You would've had what you wanted, and it would've been badass as hell.

[@veryangryboi4128]

Honestly SSJ 3 shouldn't exist its completely useless and worthless

[@priestesslucy]

@@veryangryboi4128 I like the idea of SSJ3 as a tactical option, a double edged sword you bust out in moments of desperation. But it didn't really get enough time to be effectively utilized as such a narrative tool before it got replaced

[@RaphielShiraha64]

@@priestesslucy I think the issue with SSJ3 is that right when dragon ball was returning after the boo saga they just dropped Super Saiyan God out of nowhere that was pretty much better than SSJ3 in all levels, make you wonder how useful SSJ3 would have been if it got introduced a bit early.

[@veryangryboi4128]

@@priestesslucy I like SSJ3 too but SSJ 2 vegeta and trunks were able to equal SSJ 3 which makes the form pointless.if anything SSJ Kaioken could've been the SSJ 3

[@orealz]

It's like Goku said: _"The power comes in response to a need, not a desire"._

[@tylernelson9039]

Always thought the other Z Warriors training with King Kai would lead to them gaining Kaioken. Wouldn't it be awesome if everyone developed Kaioken into their own kind of transformation that gave unique effects with the buff based on their fighting styles? Like imagine a Chaotzu using "Pyscho-Ken" where he gets a buff and enhanced psychic abilities. Yamcha's ironically gives him a speed buff so now he's the one blitzing people. They'd be like foils to the Ginyu Force but for the Earth.

[@BananaMana69]

I always thought it would be cool if someone could develop a technique for themselves. Like Piccolo after fusing with Kami. He developed the special beam cannon alone, why couldn't he develop a power multipling technique after gaining the experience and power of Nail and Kami? Its like after transformations happened Toriyama completely forgot about techniques.

[@tylernelson9039]

@@BananaMana69 Definitely feel you there. Don’t know why Toriyama didn’t try to be more creative with energy blasts and fighting styles. Guess he wants more of the emotional impacts and simple martial arts. Anything would have been better than nothing though. Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego seem like directions that every decent fighter should be taking.

[@codzz6979]

Super Saiyan was so special back in the day. It was like the “ultimate power” of a Saiyan, and it was, and the form was so cool, but now there are so many more powerful forms and multipliers that super Saiyan is barely even relevant. People don’t see it’s importance. Without super Saiyan, there would be no super Saiyan 2, 3, super Saiyan god, super Saiyan blue, ultra instinct, etc etc, he started actually getting power and trained enough to actually attain these forms. Without ssj, he probably would have never have become as powerful. It’s really the root of goku’s power and plot.

[@londongatewood3419]

bruh the blue form was brolys reaction to his Sun Wukong type crown; the ssj4 form is the ikari form broly has now. Goku and Vegeta having ssj god stacked on top makes the first form more relevant than before. ssj2 has a bang missing where Gogeta in the Janemba film does; giving a multideminsional feel to Boo's fight on the kai planet. Ssj3 was a homage to raditz; who introuduced us to saiyans in the first place. ssj4 existed back when Old Kai was still free; giving a feel for how old and how many generations potentially couldve attained the form. the red form appeared only during a fusion so seeing all trade offs makes its value skyrocket

[@codzz6979]

@@londongatewood3419 uh..your point? If goku didn’t have super Saiyan he would just die lol

[@Realkeepa]

@@londongatewood3419 ähh and who told you that?never mentioned

[@codzz6979]

@@Realkeepa exactly

[@rari2xx]

Obviously without super saiyan goku wouldn’t be where he is. But just because there are more powerful forms doesn’t mean ssj is useless, or we wouldn’t have seen it in the TOP, vs Goku Black etc. Goku & Vegeta are getting towards the diety power, something far stronger than super saiyan which is why ultra instinct and ultra ego are being seen in the manga and in will be in the anime sometime in the future.

[@lispwriter]

When they showed us that the SSJ transformation we witnessed in the Namek saga was only the beginning (by having future Trunks absolutely destroy Frieza and then having Goku block those same attacks with a finger) I felt like they opened it up to amazing possibilities. Even when Gohan surpassed Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta in the final episodes of the Cell saga I felt that was legit. One of the coolest moments for me in fact. They didn’t call it SSJ2…it was just Gohan’s untapped potential in the SSJ form. Mysterious and cool. After that though it was a joke. Enumerated levels blah blah blah. Goten and Trunks using SSJ like it’s a plaything…heck that even annoyed Vegeta (but what didn’t back then?). It just became silly. The legendary never seen in a thousand years transformation and suddenly just any Sayian can do it easy. It really wrecked it for me. That and the fact that there seemed to be more and more enemies that could easily stand up to SSJ whoever. They really threw the legend in the trash.

[@warrenbradford2597]

A transform that makes its user only two times stronger would be fair balance for fighters that do not have it. The fighter using the 2x multiplier would be powerful, but not too powerful.

[@warrenbradford2597]

@@Cure4Brains Yeah, but it would still be fair and useful against other transformations in Z. Like seriously, 2x is still better for this series than 50x. 50x is just broken. Like asking too much.

[@simpgod2170]

@@warrenbradford2597 nah 2x multiplayer is pretty small. Like a basic kaioken can match that

[@zy7465]

2x multiplier? thats a joke

[@warrenbradford2597]

@@zy7465 Still better than 50x multiplier.😀

[@mjig4178]

Two things what we can describe about SSJ.. LEGENDARY and ICON.. You can have all god ki, god form, angelic technique all that... But you just can't beat the classic transformation of saiyan..

[@juanangeloberrios641]

In my opinion I kinda wished that goku would use ssj3 like the ssj transformation to where it's more relevant since it's stronger and can be Mastered

[@lego4642]

Perhaps his x10 or x20 was a way for Goku to tap into Goku's hidden potential through his training to master it, tapping into super Saiyan before he got it. He could also use it after he got super Saiyan since it's him tapping into his hidden power

[@itousatha5359]

No matter if we love any form the best form and the form that started the crazy journey of dragon ball was supersaiyan a truely amazing and admirable 1st transformation which deserves the most praising and admiring. To this day toriyama has tried to copy its glory through super saiyan blue but it doesn't cut it because the original cannot be replaced.

[@priestesslucy]

'Started the journey' *Wut*

[@itousatha5359]

@@priestesslucy of forms towards power

[@teamonion9695]

Super saiyan really should've been a mysterious power that no one could ever fully grasp. Never having Goku, or anyone else for that matter, master the form, would definitely help keep that status of "legendary transformation." Hell, maybe only give it to Goku, and maybe Gohan, but definitely no one else. That way such a large amount of power couldn't be abused, power creeps would make a little more sense, we wouldn't have like seven different types of it, and it would be prestigious. Just an all around win if you ask me

[@rupertgordonii6623]

Yep, I agree

[@ikramhussain1534]

I think Vegeta and Trunks should get it just for show or else it'll get boring,and maybe instead of super Saiyan 2 Gohan,Gohan just gets a massive rage boost

[@keenankersh7944]

Yeah, I fully agree. Having it be less accessible even to Goku is an additional idea. Cell saga minus the super saiyan stuff, could still mostly work. And maybe Gohan could earn it at the end? Even that could be a stretch.

[@birb2330]

So similar to the Super form from Sonic, i.e. the last hope? I like this .

[@MunchDDonut]

DBZ if it wasn't written for pre-teens basically.

[@baconhert4794]

Honestly, great video man!

[@CGPTrainer]

This was certainly a interesting and good way of looking at it. I definitely think if power levels / multipliers were better handled like you state then things would've been more grounded and perhaps even balanced out. Or at least it wouldn't have made Base forms, and especially the earthlings so irrelevant so quickly. At least it is respectable within the Manga there are attempts to show the viewer / reader that power isn't always everything. Great video. =)

[@IAmRelXL]

Best dragon ball video I've seen in a long time. You made plenty of sense all the way through.

[@factandsuspicionpodcast2727]

I think the Kaioken was excellent narratively in the Saiyan saga. Goku having to destroy his body just to keep up with Vegeta added real tension to the fight, and it came with immediate, observable consequences. Goku vs Vegeta is arguably the greatest fight in anime history. It's really that good. There are certainly more complex, better choreographed fight scenes out there, but the combination of narrative buildup and visual storytelling are just fantastic. DBZ is the show that introduced me to anime, and while I've since discovered other properties I prefer, it will always hold a special place in my heart.

[@Whodjathink]

17:02 EXACTLY!!! I have thought to myself "If they had made DBZ focused more on techniques like they kind of showcased at the start, then it'd be an entirely different show" Power creep probably wouldn't have been so bad and it would've actually given more credence to hard work and battle tactics being more useful than straight up MO' POWAH. That's kind of one of the reasons I feel no matter what they do in DBS it won't feel like anything well worth it because a new form will probably just be added (which how they even got new forms just from training is also kind of like "What").

[@scarvello]

The fluffy soft ssj hair was the best.

[@FooeyMcgooey]

The Namak Saga supposed to be the last arc for DBZ. That's why SSJ was so special back then.

[@sirsir9665]

Toriyama said in a interview in 2014 The ssj 2 and 3 are just powered up variants. Ssj 1 with farther mastering can supass both.

[@GSEleven]

Thank you. This video expressed most of my issues with super saiyan. Literally, thank you.

[@RANDOMASIANGUY1]

Don't know why this was in my recommended. Not even a big dragon ball fan But the video had me invested all the way through.

[@Genji_Glove]

What they could have done is something similar to the Super Saiyan 2nd / 3rd Grade and Super Saiyan 2 later. Kaioken could have gone up to x20, but with a huge toll on energy, speed, and stamina. We could have seen Goku start easily dominating Frieza for a couple of minutes to show the raw power but then Goku starting to falter, being too slow and tired to hit him. Then he could turn Super Saiyan, and instead of an overkill 50x boost, he gets a x10 to x20 boost. Maybe not as much raw power as Kaioken but a huge power boost with full retention of stamina, speed, and control. I would have bought that, and it would have left Kaioken a viable option in future if you needed the power, but with the caveat that you HAVE to close the fight in a minute or two.

[@arrownoir]

Having him stack Kaioken so high just completely took SSJ to nonsensical levels.

[@qh777]

Yes to put it into perspective imagine a farm tractor with 150 horsepower. Now Imagine that tractor going super saiyan. It would have a horsepower rating of 7,500, which is the combined horsepower of 5 M1 Abrams tanks. And the farm tractor would also have a bit more hp than the average train.

[@outatime626]

Ironically, a movie that I feel still carries that weight for Super Saiyan in recent is the Dragon Balls Super: Broly movie. If it had been anyone other than Broly, it would have debased Super Saiyan. Broly was an ultra rare freak of nature on top of the Legendary Super Saiyan learning the true extent of his power. This is why it made sense to me that he should be so strong.

[@mechanomics2649]

I thought that the original Broly movie did all of what you're saying the best.

[@byjohan832]

Thank you for this video

[@meowsquared]

Additional super saiyan forms really exacerbated the issue, with Saiyans in general actually feeling REALLY weak compared to their opposition due to how heavily they relied on transformations just to STILL struggle with enemies a lot of the time. I think it would've made a lot more sense to just have one general super saiyan form that can be modified or optimized for very specific purposes. Like for example, a super saiyan variant that specializes in ki control and output, in which the fighter uses energy-based attacks and skills as their primary form of combat. Kind've like an artillerist. Characters would ideally fight in their normal base states the majority of the time, only ever transforming in truly dire straits to wrap up a fight in its climax.

[@arcanezenithfulsuperearthling]

That sounds like Hunter x Hunter's nen power system which would have been really cool if it was implemented like that in dragon ball fights. And I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way about the transformation crutch. I'll never understand how goku feels strong always having to transform his way to the top. You get a sense of that when goku becomes super saiyan god for the first time and can't fully accept it because it's a power he couldn't attain it on his own. If you consider krillin's death as the catalyst for his acquiring super saiyan it's basically the same thing. But nothing sells more toys quite like a shiny new transformation and I'll never stop buying them!

[@meowsquared]

@@arcanezenithfulsuperearthling Yeah, like I understand that it's to sell toys and promotional material. My issue isn't even so much that there are so many forms, as it is that they are entirely indistinct from one another. The ONLY difference between ssj Goku and Goku Blue is that they have different hair colors, and blue is stronger. It's just boring. What if god powers were more than just a big stat increase, but featured actual unique skills and abilities that could not be accessed otherwise? Like God ki giving its users the ability to harness magic and curses? God forms could then be used to diversify the flow of combat, letting saiyans abuse zenkais with healing, or create special barriers to absorb attacks. Just a bunch of crazy shit that expands the world of martial arts across the multiverse. Then, lower forms would still have value as traditional power amps, whereas god powers could be refined as a way to combat certain trickery or special techniques, with the saiyans actually having to cycle through transformations often to keep up with versatile opponents or create advantages vs overwhelming opponents.

[@arcanezenithfulsuperearthling]

@@meowsquared ooooh I can see the magic stuff kinda bringing it back to the original dragon ball fights, back when flying was a big deal and many techniques had certain physical drawbacks like Tien's multi-form technique. But yeah giving god forms unique applications that go beyond raw power would open up a lot of cool possibilities for battles in the series. Like in the fight with Hit using his time-skip. That made things more interesting on it's own, but if god-ki allowed goku to somehow bend time and space in a way that made using time-skip more difficult, that would have given the form SOMETHING at least. Maybe these ideas would be good for a different story all together and you seem to have the creativity to craft an interesting one haha. Why not give it a shot?

[@KaiKrimson56]

​@@arcanezenithfulsuperearthling In SDBH, Grand Priest Goku uses UI Sign to fight a girl that can manipulate time. Didn't see the whole fight so not sure how much it made compared to Goku vs Hit in Super. Capsule Corp Goku also counters a Fu that gained time manipulation powers by absorbing the Universal Tree with Super Saiyan Blue, which also gave Fu his powers. Though Goku doesn't use the time powers it could give him, Fu demonstrated he could immediately end fusions as one of his powers with the Universal Tree.

[@derekhageman8537]

The super saiyan transformation is the most iconic power up of any anime all-time.

[@OneOnOne1162]

I think the one thing I'd slightly disagree on is that I think we needed an "oh shit" moment for the kaio ken against Freeza. So I feel like increasing it from 4 made sense, but it probably should've been just to 5 or something and that with absolutely devastating consequences. But yes, overall Freeza was written way too strong and it caused huge problems for the rest of the story. Freeza could've been written as being weaker and it still would've had more-or-less the same effect on the audience and it would've made more sense. I feel like Freeza at full power being maybe 15 times as strong as Goku would've made sense. Then Freeza could've been using 1/3 of his power against Goku at first, completely wrecking Goku's shit. Then Goku could've done the 5 times kaio ken to try and overcome that and then Freeza could've raised his power to 7 times (half power) to stop that in its tracks. And Goku could've been so weakened by it that he couldn't try the kaio ken times 5 a second time. And then finally super saiyan could've been a 20 times multiplier so that even full power Freeza (15 times Goku) would've been no match. Although really to make it work even better you'd have to go back even further and adjust even more power levels. Like did the Oozaru really need to be 10 times? I think they probably could've gotten away with 4 times and it could've still been very impressive. Especially considering that only 2 times is required to tank attacks.

[@t_bkdk_r2285]

I believe that this was because DbZ was supposed to end after Frieza's defeat

[@hermanjohnson9180]

The crazy power amps sure did make the show extremely exciting. I like how in DB Super it's scaled even further. Goku is used to toppling seemingly invincible foes who often seem like gods. Occasionally, they're actual gods!

[@fngerg7034]

but in the process it made all the cool characters (piccolo, tien, yamcha, krillin) irrelevant, and some of them a laughingstock of the fanbase (yamcha, krillin) and more dbz and dbs just use the laughingstocks as ways to show how powerful the next new opponent is. The writers are actively alienating everyone who likes the side characters from og db. Personally, my favorite character is Yamcha, I've always like his moveset, arc, personality, etc ever since he was introduced. As much as I like dbz, the writing of the broader story is just shit. It gets worse with dbs, and the feats have barely changed since ogdb. Vanishing was in ogdb, so was destroying mountains, the moon, everything taking away planet busting but only because of that we're a thing we would already be in place. Dbz and dbs use a crutch of new color or shape of hair and big number to "show power". They also actively reduce the scale of the show every arc (frieza is the strongest in the universe, there are 12 limited universes). I love dbz and I like the dbs manga but goddamn the writing is shit. TLDR: the way they make the show interesting is mostly terrible writing resulting in the ruin of characters and scale of the broad story

[@hermanjohnson9180]

@@fngerg7034 I hear what you're saying. But for the record yamcha is supposed to be laughing stock. What a loser 🤣

[@partiallyflyguy]

Also the 50 times thing only meant for the original form. Once they mastered super saiyan the multiplier was higher afterwards

[@dustingleason5925]

Izaroo Vegeta in the Sayan saga is the same power level as Goku when he went kaioken against captain Ginyu on Namek (180,000). I always that that’s kind of cool.

[@Arbron]

I think the story could have been written where Frieza didn't even need to go beyond 530,000. That was the original level of the beast and no one came close. At that point he was essentially a god. The arc could have ended with Frieza only having a single transformation (pushing him over a million) and Goku using SSJ to match and surpass that. Going into the *hundreds* of millions was way overkill.

[@woollysealion7797]

Honestly it is a super Saiyan bargain sale at this point

[@ReeceHoward06]

I think a lot of what you are discussing here is a LARGE part of the charm and appeal of the Dragonball series. Let's be real: all of these crazy transformations, absurd battle powers, and over the top fighting is what launched Dragonball past all of its competition in the late 80s through mid 90s.(in its original run, but early 2000's through mid 2000s for western audiences) I honestly don't think the Frieza saga could have been more epic without those drastic increases, that's what made it so memorable in scope! Frieza being able to thoroughly kick everyone's asses at less than 1% of his full power leaves quite the impression. Yes, his character and goals make him memorable...but his power, especially in relation to what we know the cast is already capable of, made him one of the most threatening villains to have ever appeared in a shonen. This is so much so that they basically used this exact formula when they introduced Beerus.

[@ohhellwhereami2574]

Dragon ball power system is unbalanced in a fair way that made it so thrilling and enjoyable at fight scene like buu singlehandedly wiping everyone's ass .

[@kurjategija]

Are we going to talk about how toddler Gohan got a 1000x rage multiplier in like episode 3? No? OK.

[@huguesdepayens807]

I know, that always bugged the hell out of me. Stuff like that is why I hate Gohan as a character.

[@fbiuzz]

Yeah. Looking back, it ws honestly rediculous. Gohan went from human level to being stronger than Goku and Piccolo (during that time period) combined.

[@joshrodriguez9822]

8:03 you mean 30 mil not 60 mil Also great vid!

[@abhabh6896]

I remember Mori Jin from God of Highschool using a multiplier of something around 600 0000.

[@videoforlife7086]

honestly, fictional wise, there has been characters with a power boost that's higher then ssj. like, take Bruce banner and the incredible hulk for example. (whatever version that anyone feels like using, like tv shows, games, or even comics). anyway, you get an earthling banner (probably pumped up in his "base form" from gamma radiation [maybe]) who transforms into the hulk and he's able to do crazy feets... (but since there's alternate adaptations of the hulk, it would be understandable each one is a different level... or power level) What increase does Bruce banner gain to achieve those feets? if Bruce was a 5 and he had ssj, that'd put his power to 250, and that's like dragonball level or tv show levels (cause the comic version tends to be insane for depicting a character)

[@MegaDrain]

Super Saiyan always makes me realize how broken Frieza is. Goku trained his entire life up to this point in time going through the most grueling training and fights, has died at one point, and had to watch his best friend dying to unlock an ancient transformation that his race talks about as legend. All this to fight a guy whose base power (since his Final Form is technically his actual first form) was only able to be surpassed by super saiyan and had never fought a day in his life but also knows how to fight incredibly well. That's scary.

[@isiahdruelinger1415]

I miss the original yellow super saiyan forms I hope they make them the final forms once again eventually you just can’t beat the yellow haired designs

[@itskalbtw]

at least in Goku's Ultra Instinct form, there is a chance for the series to introduce base form-related power-ups, like Whis statement on the mastery of Ultra Instinct, and I don't doubt that it can also be the case for Vegeta's Ultra Ego

[@berntz]

11:56. Gosh thank you! My buds always argued on how he needs to train his body to handle the higher multiplier so he can get used to it. But the issue is he is constantly getting stronger and the multiplied strength will constantly be out of his reach in terms of getting used to it.

[@vladline1882]

If Dragon balls character power lvl is used wisely, base form going max would be deadly in fights than going super saiyan jump. Going super saiyan should have been special after exhausting the max base form. The closes to it was the movie DBS Frieza Resurrection

[@Puzzles-Pins]

Yeah as cool as the flashy power moments can be, I miss the older stuff, when it was actually more about the martial arts. I appreciate the effort to get back to that, but it does feel like too little, far too late.

[@TheGamingShogun]

Also the thing with kaioken is that Goku strengthened his body so much it could withstand the effects of the power boost but you can still see the effects as it's pushed more and more as you saw his body stated to distort when he used x10 in dbs because he didn't train his body enough to handle ssb with the kaioken effects

[@orealz]

I agree with the kaioken take. Especially as Goku's base power gets higher and higher. The Kaioken should multiplier should be progressively more dangerous to utilise.

[@DctrBread]

transformations are only written so that characters can job for themselves instead of getting minions to job for them.

[@svenkrules9855]

Watching Perfect Cell gets his torso blown up by Goku's Instant Transmission + Kamehameha combo was equally badass and hilarious at the same time.

[@sirminty8495]

I like how you go through all of this and say how insane the transformations are, only to ignore the absolute lad that is Jiren who doesn't have a single transformation and just bodies all of the Super Saiyan forms. Your argument is addressing the problem of just how insane multipliers are, but never truly got at the idea. Goku, in early Super, becomes powerful enough to destroy the entire multiverse of universe 7 in his base form. And then Super Saiyan, at minimum, gives him the power to do it 50x over. Even more so if you properly include the multipliers of strength that they acquired by refining the Super Saiyan form. Slap onto that the power of Super Saiyan 2, 3, God, and then Blue on top of that and you being to truly fathom just why that multipliers can seriously go beyond insanity. Multipliers are always an insane jump. No matter how small. 2x will always be insane. 50x is nuts. 200x is pure insanity. But growing power has always been a thing in DB. From the very start Goku has gained more and more raw power, eventually to the point of surpassing the entire planet he lived on. As one's power grows, so too does their rate of growth in DB. Is it insane now? Yes. But it has had years of power jumps to reach that full insanity.

[@callumarcher8111]

I feel like Super Saiyan could have just been the same 10x multiplier that the Oozaru and Kaioken forms were, but without the drawbacks of turning into a mindless beast or destroying your body. That way, it would give the Saiyans a reason to use it over the other forms while not leaving every non-Saiyan in the group so far behind since (in theory) they should mostly all know the Kaioken as well and could use that to bridge the power gap, but with the downside that they aren't able to fight at the same level as effectively.

[@Lex-zo6bo]

I would say like a 12x or 15x could work tbh

[@elpopman2055]

According to Dragon Ball GT Journal 43 Super Saiyan full power is just as powerful as Super Saiyan Grade 3 without the drawbacks. Therefore mastered Super Saiyan is x500. SS2 is x1000 SS3 is x4000.

[@veryangryboi4128]

SSJ was a legand about the most powerful warrior in the universe,it being 10x stronger would've been less satisfying

[@adolfodef]

(Following the concept presented by Callum) . [Besides the x10 base muliplier] Oozaru makes you physically bigger & heavier (this comes with both benefits & disadvantages, as seen back in original Dragon Ball when Mayunia!Pikkoro got even taller). The madness effect requires training to be avoided. The "weak point" of the tail only works as a disadvantage if an unknown source attacks it while in stealth mode [Yayirobe´s success was a surprise to everyone, even himself]. . Kaioken is efectively a "CPU overdrive" that by definition generates more "heat" than whatever the body can dissipate (in short bursts would only consume stamina, while in longer or more intense use actually BURNS away the cells of the body that "make" that power boost, destroying it from the inside). -> Goku actually "mastered" the initial form of Kaioken that doubles power output for up to 1 minute while he was dead in the afterlife [ if he could somehow rest for another full minute, he could do it again without aditional complications ]. But having to continue the fight (being alive), prevented his body from recovering (or it did but at a slow rate, requiring 5 or 10 minutes to get to the same "safety" state than before he used this technique), with less overall stamina remaining. . Super Saiyan SHOULD have a higher multiplier than Oozaru, precisely because it is not also increasing the size/mass of the individual [so a x20 seems reasonable, but merely because a more proper x12 (or x15) is not easy to grasp]. Just like with the Oozaru form, there is a madness/rage effect going on... but since the brain structure/instincts were not changed, it would be just a manifestation of what the "normal" animal_side of a human_oid could be [rather than a "monster hunger" from an actual beast]. Even a fighter who is "untrained" on meditation could still overcome this rage state. Goku is technically a "monk" (just like Krilin & Korin), with Kami´s training on sensing Ki requiring at least some basics on self_control he could tap into. -> It was implied by the Old Kai that the Super Saiyan form accelerates aging (or rather: it reduces the maximum "ceiling" of lifespan, pulling the date for a "natural death" closer to the present). This "Fate Karma" effect could be a suficient reason to not overuse it when not in times of need.

[@ze_kangz932]

I think this should have been the way. But it's too late already lol

[@aster4jaden]

I still love Power Levels.

[@georgelopes4589]

If Super Saiyan is so cool, why haven’t they made Super Saiyan 2? Toriyama:

[@adumanimator]

Kaioken is just Goku's coffee.

[@jolereplica]

And then training and training to even be fit for a super saiyan powerup just got thrown out the window once we met the universe 6 saiyan. "Tickle feeling in the back" means Super Saiyan now.

[@Bingo_the_Pug]

The first time Goku transformed was epic, but when they started introducing Super Duper Saiyan, Super Saiyan Too, Saiyan Saiyan God Super Saiyan Saiyan, etc. it became ridiculous

[@robbiemedica2652]

Gohan's ssj2 transformation was amazing though.

[@lukagarner]

What made supersayians unique was the narrative that led to it. On Namek, every single character have gone through immense suffering to get their hands on the dragon ball to revive their friends, then failed (kinda) They suffered in the battle of frieza Witnessed Vegeta dying tragicly Goku almost dying at the hand of frieza And finally when people thought he was dead, he came back and killed Goku's best friend. And that's what made it special and it was no different for supersayian 2. Supersayian 3 kinda(?) came out of nowhere, but it also didn't, but they made it work somehow, but it didn't have the same impact as the first two supersayians, because it lacked narrative foundation and motivation to need something more out of this world. Hell, even GT made an impactful Super sayian transformation, it really fell apart in Super. And it's really hard to really make anything else more impactful after the things that took place in Z. So to me, sometimes you need to know when things have to come to an end. As much as I love dragonball, if it can't figure out what there is new and meaningful to be excited about, then maybe it shall end right then and there.

[@salamyaya162]

Super Sayian is ridiculously powerful.

[@ShrineVon-Karma]

No way he said "without you popping" to krillim bruh🤣🤣

[@Paulinho_66]

The 50x multiplier is sure very ridiculous but you forget to mention the ridiculous zenkai boost goku got from the fight with ginyu. He had 90k when he arrived on namek and after the zenkai he got 3 million, thats a 33x zenkai boost Lets say he got a zenkai boost of only 3.5x, and he went to 300.000 after being healed. That way a 10x kaioken would be 3 milion and SSJ 15 million like early translations of daizenshuu said he got. Goku ssj with 15 million and freeza full power with 12 million would be so much better to the power scale

[@Stonefallow]

Except none of this informs the narrative of the story or is consistent with battles in the modern series. Toriyama didn't even come up with the 50x multiplier, and the "Overwhelm" chart is completely fan made. The thing about Toriyama is he isn't a math guy and never was. The numbers being thrown around in the Freeza arc were basically hyperbole. The guy didn't even remember that "Dragon Ball Super: Super Heroes" had the word "super" twice in it...

[@lucaslopes1260]

I think the problem wasn't the multiplier itself, but the fact the transformation can be used anytime. In the Namek Arc, Goku had to go through a trauma and took quite some time to transform. In the Android Arc, he went fishing with Gohan in his Super Sayan form.

[@ohhellwhereami2574]

Plus it didn't have greater drawbacks which made it insanely broken at the time.

[@Kiblastchronicles]

Thx for the content i hope you are having a good day

[@derekrichardson7853]

Dragon ball power levels got out of control with these 2x+ multiplier transformations. I think it would have been better if SSJ just did a 25% boost to base power, SSJ2 is 50%. Something like that.

[@babyvaso3855]

The problem is this Raditz, Vegeta and Nappa, I don't ever recall these guys having training sessions, despite this are leagues over Goku and Piccolo Frieza - Never trained a day in his life, infinitely stronger than Vegeta and Goku Androids - Built strong, never trained a day in their life, infinitely stronger than Z warriors Cell - Never trained a day in his life, infinitely stronger than Z warriors Buu - Same thing Omega Shenron - Same Thing When enemies do train we get Golden Frieza, Hit, Jiren, Skinny fat buu, Android 17 All with a fraction of the training as Goku.

[@jfitnesshealth]

wow this was an amazing video. made me think of things I never thought of. especially the kaio ken not needing to go past 4, but had to goto 20 just like ssj had to goto 50 even though 10 was enough. lol. wow deep

[@Emerald29]

tingly back

[@SansINess53]

One thing could you do a power levels matters series but on the movies?

[@M3rtyville]

I think I will talk about Super Saiyan next on my channel. Really got into video making lately but its just me rambling about tierlists and roasting arcs of Dragon Ball Super.

[@unstabl-3]

They need to get their tails back, ssj God final form needs to be a nod to ssj4

[@spencerl3734]

Good point. I’ll still suspend disbelief no matter what they do with dragon ball lol. True ultra instinct/True ultra ego Gogeta? Fine. Gohan beast potara fusion with Supreme Kai? Whatever. Orange piccolo namekian fusion with Dende? Idk, I’m in. Freeza black fusion with a future version of his own self. Awesome lol

[@starshottai2519]

10x super kio spirit vs 50x multiplier fusion raw energy. But in fact it's really a 150 million times power boost when you think about the x200 damage from base form to quickly overpower the ridiculous broken power gaps when the scaling gets blasted by a x2.25 plot beam.....for those who want a quick summary.

[@chahehkouadio5166]

So what you are basically Saiyan is that if they trained their base forms for way more making them reach the trillions, then adding super saiyan to it would be like overkill? So after the cell saga. They should've focused more on training their base forms so if an enemy who could potentially destroy them in it, will have no chance of recovering from just ssj. When you put it that way. GT Goku and all his forms are ridiculous. He is basically so powerful that Fused Zamasu doesn't even stand a chance if he used SSJ2 at least.

[@MultiSpeedMetal]

As long as Dragon Ball continued after Namek, Super Saiyan was always going to lose relevance. The second Goku learns how to go Super Saiyan at will, it just becomes another normal tool in his arsenal, and if Goku had to struggle to go Super Saiyan every arc, it would still get boring and played out eventually. Transformations beyond Super Saiyan were an inevitability, the problem is in how they were handled. Super Saiyan 2 isn't distinct enough, and Super Saiyan 3 didn't do anything. In Super, God was somewhat inspired, whereas Blue was as lazy as Super Saiyan 2 was. Ultra Instinct is, in my opinion, the best form since the original Super Saiyan since it's visually distinct and doesn't feel like a lazy derivative of Super Saiyan, and isn't just a power increase it has new abilities that go with it. I also like that Ultra Instinct isn't Saiyan-specific. Ultra Instinct also has basis in real martial arts which is cool as that's what the series was founded on. Ultra Instinct feels like the pinnacle of Goku as a Martial Artist and shows that he is now a master.

[@deadringer-cultofdeathratt8813]

SSJ should’ve been written to be equal to the ozaru in power with the benefit of still being small and thus having way more power in a smaller area instead of being a giant target. That plus, Goku and gohan not being able to control is ozaru, plus the fact that ssj doesn’t necessitate the moon would have been a good argument for the Saiyans to favor it over the ozaru. Not to mention there would be no tail weakness. Then the ozaru would still be relevant as a transformation they could resort to if they didn’t have the ki to maintain ssj, since ozaru activates regardless of ki lv.

[@Reliken]

Thank you for this video! People always act like power levels never meant anything and miss that they were actually quite consistent and thought out from the Saiyan Saga through to the end of Freeza! I kinda think the Super Saiyan transformation should have just been x10... The strength of an Oozaru but in a normal-sized body. That's powerful enough! And then it would stack if you could manage to do both - so 100x power if you could be Super Saiyan and then transform into an Oozaru.

[@princevegeta1752]

The dragon ball story up to the end of frieza was the best imo everything after was just crazy fights

[@mkgibertjr]

Now that I'm thinking about it, kaio-ken started all of this with its initial multipliers, necessitating the high power scaling of every villain after Raditz. 😬

[@MatthewBrown64]

So, a small group of friends and I started our own thing, not related to DB, but this video shows why my friends and I have capped our biggest multiplier at 25x, discounting fusion. ontop of that, the 25x form can almost never actually be used. more often we just use a much smaller boost, if at all, since all the forms can only be used with certain requirements. the exception being Fusion, which is (A+B)x100. however our only plans to use it are against a literal god of destruction. add their base forms progressing, and you can actually keep it interesting without spiraling into more and more broken forms.

[@GoldKitsuneBrony]

One thing to consider about Super Saiyan is that Freeza was meant to be the ending of the series. 'Goku dies on Namek after having rid the Galaxy of the Tyrant, Freeza' was supposed to be the end. So it didn't really matter how strong it was. There's also the ABSOLUTELY ret-conned idea that the transformation is 'legendary' and 'only once every 1,000 years does a saiyan reach this form' But money. XD

[@Anthony-zl9ow]

the chart at 3:20 is basically all we need to go by tbh when comparing fighters

[@livingashtree1942]

Goku reaching the likes Kaio-ken x10,x20 was a showcase of him diving deeper into his "spiritual/inner" power after training under the x100 gravity he was doing stuff he didn't believe to be possible before, but after surviving that extreme level of training there was no telling for him for what was impossible anymore, in a way. Which was all due to his Saiyan nature to grow continuously stronger which eventually would lead to The Super Saiyan transformation, which Kaio-ken in a way was a precursor to.

[@johnfall3879]

Awesome video.

[@beanmchocolate3900]

I’ve always loved ssj. Such an iconic form.

[@omariwashington2570]

For the kaioken part of the video training to have more endurance and Goku would eventually become numb to the pain which probably how he can take kaioken times 20.

[@SuperSohSo]

That original super sayian was like SUPERMAN that could of been the only transformation . That's what it always reminded me of like Clark Kent to superman