Salamanders Faction Review: Rules and Armoury (Horus Heresy)

[@AarenJable]

They may not be top-tier but they're the most bro-tier legion by far. Big fan of theirs even though I've never collected them.

[@yuliydubovyk3080]

It's here!! Super excited for this one! 🔥

[@Henevas]

I think a lot of the fun is going to be in Awakening Fire RoW - Predators and Pyrcoclasts as troops choice, with torrent on those preds, is just so many high strength templates. It almost feels like you can lean more into the sturdy-to-shooting aspects and let those take care of the shooting for you. Maybe some lascannon squads and some blast weapons and that seems a decent list already.

[@liammorgan1413]

You're thinking of Covenant of Fire there, not Awakening Fire (which is more about fear, pyromancy and chaplains instead). The real winners for CoF are the flamer tactical support squads and pyroclasts, just through sheer stint of gaining the Line sub-type in addition to being eligible to be taken as Troops. Always worth noting as well is that Predators taken as Troops in CoF must be equipped with nothing but dragon's breath cannons and dragon's breath heavy flamers, and unlike Land Raiders they can't split their shots. In some cases it'd be more effective to just keep a squadron of them as Heavy Support and give them magna-melta cannons and lascannon side sponsons instead. As a side note, I can definitely attest to Salamanders needing some means of supporting their close-range firepower focus. A battery of rapier quad mortars with shatter shells and a heavy support squad with missile launchers works really well in this regard, as does having two land raiders.

[@HyprHotshot]

Awesome vids, can you give your take on space wolves

[@SilverPraetorian]

One thing to note for Promethean Will, is that is affects the entire army, not just the warlord's unit.

[@thecuttingboardforge8464]

I saw on another review that it was only on the unit & I started to think my book had a different version printed in it!! Mine definitely says it’s army wide.

[@HispAnakin42]

@@thecuttingboardforge8464 they probably had the different edition of the rules

[@Darthvegeta8000]

@@HispAnakin42 That or a translation or regional printing issue. 2.0 had several such issues apparently.

[@aossi6738]

Thanks for all this work. Great vids. I am wondering do you have a kinda generic list as a base. I'm new to this and it can be overwhelming. Although, with all the painting I might not be able to play for about 50 years lol

[@Hearesy]

I’ve thought about doing this a few times, maybe when I get a chance I will put something like this up!

[@GalanThings]

I want to field Salamanders allies to my iron warriors. Flamers up front, big guns at the back. To me they've got a bit too little (or too bad) things (god that PDF is sad to them) to make whole army out of them but there are some fun things for sure. Like you've said they should have gotten something to buff melta since flamers, to me, were only a half of what made Salamanders so spicy.

[@jeffreysas5888]

I think the main benefit of the Covenant of Fire Rite of War is that you can have an elite main attachment with Pyroclasts/Tactical Support Squads, and then take an allied detachment that has better tactical/assault/despoiler squads, taking advantage of their allied chart (literally the "friendliest" of all the legions). Main reason I personally rank the Legion Special Rule as probably the worst is because you cannot really build around it. 6+ IWND is negligible, and the -1 to wound with certain weapons that I think are already pretty rare is something that you cannot design an army around. Flame weapons are in a bit of a rough spot, due to the Heavy subtype (rerolls saves vs templates) and Reactions (quite a few options to either move out of range or charge in a different phase to prevent being overwatched). I get why they didn't do anything for melta weapon benefits, as it seems they are trying to make space marines more durable. However, it now feels like there's zero incentive for melta weapons besides "it fits army aesthetic". Biggest strengths seems to be their Advanced Reaction (I think it's being slept on), Dragonscale Shields, and Pyroclasts.

[@n7xranger]

Great video, one thing I'm still on the fence about is Tactical Support and Heavy Support Squads with flamers for Salamanders. They look great but why not take Pyroclasts instead? I'd be interested in seeing how they compare point-for-point.

[@liammorgan1413]

Strictly for a points comparison, the difference is 12 points for the tactical support marine with flamer, 15 for the heavy support marine with heavy flamer, and 30 points for the pyroclast whose flame projector is functionally a dragon's breath heavy flamer/meltagun combi-weapon. Given the melta function of their flame projectors however, what you really should be comparing pyroclasts to are the melta-upgraded equivalents for tactical and heavy support squads. While a melta costs 15 points for the tactical support marine and a multi-melta costs 10 for the heavy support marine, with their additional wound, artificer armour, melta bombs, conditional invulnerable save, and not having the Heavy sub-type, pyroclasts are really good value this edition as a melta unit even when taken as-is without any upgrades. Even then however, you're still paying a pretty penny for an infantry-based melta unit as always, even one with a built-in horde control function. If you strictly want close-range horde control, tactical support squads with flamers is sufficient in most lists, especially since their heavy brethren run the issue of taking up a valuable Heavy Support slot.

[@n7xranger]

​@@liammorgan1413 thanks for the in-depth analysis! If I can find the points in my list I'll definitely consider a TSS but as it stands it's hard to find space in my 2000 point list! Right now I'm thinking this for my Awakening Fire list: Cata Praetor Chaplain Centurion 2-3 Tac Squads, Chap attached to one 5 Firedrakes w/hammer+shield riding in a Land Raider with the Praetor 10 Pyroclasts in a transport 1-3 Contemptors with power fist/flamer and melta cannon The Discord server has been helpful but I'm still trying to figure out the details!

[@liammorgan1413]

​@@n7xranger One alternative you could consider at the 2k point list is replacing the Firedrakes with a Cataphractii Command Squad. Same WS, Same save, same wounds, same weapons, same attacks, and at 15-20 points less than their equivalent in Firedrakes you're trading Stubborn and Forge-Crafted of Nocturne for Fearless and the Line sub-type via the standard bearer (which is practically a discounted Herald for all intents and purposes). As for the chaplain, ideally you'll want him being a beatstick/buff attached to a melee-centric unit instead. Veterans with power weapons (swords are especially strong this edition, though I run mine with mauls instead) would be a good fit, though you'll want to consider investing in an assault transport for them to get up the table in relative safety. Apart from that, I will most definitely recommend eventually grabbing up more things with longer range, even if it is just lascannon side-sponsons on predators, sicarans, and/or land raiders. Just because Salamanders excel in close quarters firefights doesn't mean that that's all they should do on the tabletop, especially given the high risk play-style it encourages. In addition to the land raiders, a heavy support squad with missile launchers works wonders in this department, as do rapier quad mortars.

[@n7xranger]

@@liammorgan1413 I'll take a look at the Command Squad, it's an option I haven't fully explored but could work nicely. As for the Vets they seem like a great option but I'm not sure if I have the points for them and Pyroclasts, especially with transports. I really want some dreads as well but something has to be cut. Long range firepower is definitely something I am considering once I get my basic force down. Ideally I would like to add an Allied Detachment of Loyalist Iron Warriors under Narik Dreygur since I have the model. 10 Iron Havocs with autocannons and some quad-mortars will do nicely!

[@liammorgan1413]

@@n7xranger That's fair. You're not obligated to take on an allied detachment just for the long range fire support, but you're not wrong in that other legions can do it better. If tinkering around with Narik Dreygur, I'd also recommend looking at converting up a model for Xiaphas Jurr (chaplain with power maul, dragonscale stormshield, and fire-themed iron halo) for thematic purposes.

[@martynsmith820]

I struggle to see the positives of the Salamanders rules. I collected sallies in both 1.0 and have continued in 2.0. As you pointed out, it feels like there are alot more restrictions on the sallie rules than others and those rules are very niche in their application. That said, the biggest crime in the book is the Mantle of the Elder Drake, 35points to stop you getting doubled out is an outrageous price, especially when you consider the old version shut down instant death entirely. The other thing that triggers me a bit is that Firedrakes, who used to be unique with their 2 wounds, are now the same as everyone else and some others such as the Death Guard randomly get 3 wound Battlehardened termies?

[@eater_of_garbage_]

Also their dragon's breath flamers being basically worse than my own Dark Angel plasma flamers is painful to see

[@martynsmith820]

@@eater_of_garbage_ That's kinda the theme with sallies haha. Everything is worse that other armies equivalents. The flamers, the IWND, the "toughness boost" etc

[@eater_of_garbage_]

@@martynsmith820 Its not all bad though, Firedrakes kick ass and your reaction is way better than DA's

[@martynsmith820]

@Florence Simpson elements are certainly good, but I don't know if I'd class the salamander reaction where you can kill yourself at the end as good haha. I guess sallies just feel a little unfocused and a bit like an after thought from a rules perspective.

[@euansmith3699]

Some people just want to watch the Galaxy burn... but in a good way.

[@cireesco]

I really wonder why Salamanders don't have any melta buffs. Seems like a bit of a miss. Also Redemption of Flames locked to traitors? If there's anything I'm willing to house rule, it's that warlord trait being universal.

[@3v3rhard]

They are pretty nice tbh. Its mostly that some legion have crazy OP special units which make legions look bad.

[@misterduch7904]

Salamanders are...in a rough spot in some ways. 6+ it will not die is honestly a joke, No option to upgrade combi flamers is weird ( Death guard can ). ROW are meh, warlord traits are meh, Armoury is fine in vacuum. PDF characters are downright offensive ( WS4 chaplain with a worse thunder hammer lol ). Vulkan is fine, altough stuff like guilliman does more for the army for the same price cost. Pyroclasts are fun but WS4 is such a shame for a CQ veteran unit. Firedrakes are the best Salamanders specific sheet, but at 325 for a classic 5 man squad they can get rather expensive to run as a full squad ( 625 points ). Our advanced reaction can really up their performance, and if I am not playing vulkan a biomancer and medicea primus in the unit can do wonders ( 5+++, rerollable 5+ it will not die, +1T with on your own turn with a LD check ) The biggest thing holding salamanders back is the existence of certain other legions that can get alot more bang for the buck

[@liammorgan1413]

I personally don't have an issue with pyroclasts being WS4, as they're meant to be a close-range firepower unit and not a melee one. After all, a pyroclast squad in melee is one that can't use its flame projectors.

[@ernakopmak5373]

Look at the bright side: they're friendly allies with almost everybody!

[@tabe8850]

We HAD boost to melta in 1st edition HH using Covenant of Fire RoW, but they took it away from us…

[@kaughnor1]

In the covenant of fire right of war, if I give a sergeant a hand flamer in a aux tactical squad it becomes a dragon flamer. Then if I upgrade the squad to have plasma guns, do they still become line due to the one dragon hand flamer in the squad?

[@Hearesy]

Id have to check the book, from memory it says “flamers” and not “any flame weapons” or similar though right? but id say spirit of the rules clearly no regardless of what it says.

[@Dan-gw9gd]

Odd that you like the dragon breath flamers and not the deathguard alchem flamers. I'd rather be wounding everything on 2+ and deal with get hot then get 1+

[@Hearesy]

I dont dislike alchem flamers at all, but gets hot is a real thing - it prevents you shooting AND does a potential wound - where dragons breath just fires. They average the same number of wounds vs most things but at no danger to your own stuff. Thats only a part of the story too. Sallies legion trait and row help them where dg legion trait does nothing for them, etc.

[@Dan-gw9gd]

@@Hearesy wounding on 2s is and (I mean wounding everything) better then wounding on 3s and even loosing on average 1 or 3 model through get hots in a unit of ten isn't a big deal and probably want happen if you have am apothecary. No one is wasting a heavy support slot heavy flamers so your talking special weapons squads or squads that can take hand flamers.

[@Hearesy]

Gets hot template weapons *also dont shoot* which means that wounding on 2s is offset by losing one shooting model. Meaning DB flamers are basically just better than alchem flamers, because they do pretty much the same hits but cant kill your guys

[@Dan-gw9gd]

@@Hearesy on say a full squad of flamers you're gonna loose maybe one guy in a full squad of ten. Who cares. You're forcing your opponent to role like 30 or 40 armour saves on 10 man squads and more like 50 or 60 on squads of 20. your wounding leviathan's and contemptors on 2's! It's a 12 Point model that's only likely to get one or two turns of shooting before it's wiped who cares if you loose a model or two due to get hot

[@Hearesy]

10 dragon flamers, hitting 8 enemies: 80 hits, wounding on 3s = 52.8 wounds on avg 10 alchem flamers, hitting 8 enemies: 8.33 fire, wounding on 2s = 55.5 wounds on avg and 1.67 auto wounds on themselves You get a tiny 5% increase in wounds in return for likely killing one of your own marines. And dragon flamers have an overwatch benefit, too. Alchem flamers are just worse, their maths doesnt hold up!

[@CaptainEshara]

so do you think people will moan if i use first born marines as a scouring army? what do people think, i've bought HH box set and the liber books, but I'm just a little slower than some people when it comes to building and painting and things cost a fair bit relative to my own circumstances

[@CaptainEshara]

i dont want to just trash or sell my first born 40k stuff and all the rhino's i have, seems a little pointless to buy a load of demios

[@Hearesy]

Depends on your game in group, but people are generally great and I would think they would factor your circumstances!

[@3v3rhard]

@@CaptainEshara most 40k space marines are fine to use in 30k. Also you have a lot of flexibility with even non 30k units. Btw all rhino variants were present during the heresy. Deimos was just most common but Mars was certainly around.