Freedom & Censorship: A Conversation with Greg Lukianoff (Episode

Sam Harris speaks with Greg Lukianoff about free speech and cancel culture. They discuss the origins of political correctness, free speech and its boundaries, the bedrock principle of the First Amendment, technology and the marketplace of ideas, epistemic anarchy, social media and cancellation, comparisons to McCarthyism, self-censorship by professors, cancellation from the Left and Right, justified cancellations, the Hunter Biden laptop story, how to deal with Trump in the media, the state of higher education in America, and other topics.
Greg Lukianoff is the President & CEO of the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE). He earned his undergraduate degree from American University and his law degree from Stanford, and he worked for the ACLU of Northern California and other organizations before joining FIRE in 2001. He is one of America’s most passionate defenders of free speech. He has written about the issue in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post. He also co-wrote The Coddling of the American Mind with Jonathan Haidt and, most recently, The Canceling of the American Mind with Rikki Schlott.
Website: thefire.org, greglukianoff.substack.com/
Twitter: @glukianoff
May 20, 2024
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[@bonnieboyz]

The anti-Semitism in Europe has much more to do, sadly, with the large Muslim population here, rather than any nuanced difference to the European vs. U.S. approach to free speech.

[@peterthegreat996]

Europe holds the record for killing Jewish people though , so ….yea there is that

[@mishaarthur7689]

Yes, europe famously was a safe harbor for Jews before globalism. Are you even TRYING to keep facts in view???

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

KZbin amplifies (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit).

[@LateGameThreat]

The elephant in the room. Globalists will stop at nothing to destroy nationalism.

[@patrickbateman5252]

lol

[@godisbollocks]

I miss the pre-internet days growing up in New Zealand. We all watched the same news, read the same newspapers. We might've disagreed on the information contained therein, but this whole kneejerk epistemic partisanship we see today was not around then.

[@1984isnotamanual]

Yea, technology can do that. If we survive this unfettered social media phase intact i think we will work out a way to normalize again.

[@bryangipe1]

At least it gives an opportunity to develop the skill of discernment. It would be interesting to look back at pre internet news cast and see how truthful they actually were.

[@phoenixfire8226]

@@1984isnotamanual not without tyranny.

[@karenmorris674]

One problem is that so many people apparently can not distinguish between opinion and fact.

[@gregorysgarrison]

Because it isn't as black and white as you like to pretend. There are gray areas. The reason so many topics cause such debate is because the answers aren't black and white.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@FigmentHF]

Facts are important, but you can also paint a totally inaccurate picture using nothing but facts.

[@BigRedBugs]

The fact for example the violence from a holy book for some people depending on how or which angle they look at if it is from the superpower's creation as they claim then it is registimate to do so against who is disagree or has an opinion on the issue. ..so a censorship pretty much always caused by an violent threat or jail term.

[@Johnconno]

There are no Facts, Karen.

[@TheStainlessFish]

Free speech isnt a problem on social media sites. The recommendation system that curates content is.

[@SevenRiderAirForce]

Surprised Sam just seems to posit abstract, neutral, perfectly informed arbiters who will "check" misinformation. Meanwhile, here in reality, the list of abusive, power hungry idiots who actually assume such powers is long and tedious.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@frankxu4795]

He has a good intent trying to cleanse at least some misinformation. Yet the problem is, the people who hold such power are corruptible and very soon censorship becomes a powerful tool to cleanse the political opponent.

[@FinalEyes777]

Everything other than myself at this moment in time, 6 minutes after this video was posted, appears to be a bot, and the bots argue with themselves, sometimes a bot will defend Sam and in another comment insult him. It is truly insane.

[@MrCharkteeth]

I was thinking the same thing. Video says 47 minutes ago as of now, and there are comments from 40 minutes ago. So they listened to the first 7 minutes and now they're jumping into criticism? I checked the subreddit, and the episode was posted there 5 hours ago, so maybe it was available before it was on KZbin, and people here have already listened? Seems like a stretch

[@TheKentuckyNightmare]

​@MrCharkteeth I've read in other comments sections that the episodes are posted on his website several hours before they appear here, so maybe that's it.

[@brianmeen2158]

I read that bots make up 70% of KZbin comments.. is this true? Who is creating the bots and is it just a way to drive up traffic?

[@EmperorsNewWardrobe]

Do you think there could be a way to make a comment that verifies yourself as not a bot? Something creative perhaps?

[@curiositycloset2359]

Let me guess, you don't agree with these "bots", and they should all be censored?

[@toby9999]

Another fantastic conversation. Excellent as usual.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@progagainstpirates]

Haven't listened yet. Waiting to see if there's a "Palestinians = Hamas" tie-in that comes with every Sam Harris podcast these past few months. No spoiler alerts, please!

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@jameygleason]

Anybody know where I can find the Boger Center for the performing arts?

[@szarkazm]

He brings up a very important point, the difference between free speech and disinformation. Disinformation renders us ungovernable, I have pondered this often. Because the average person doesn’t know what the truth is anymore, especially in the US where education is in a sorrowful condition. It leads to apathy and nihilism, and the horrendous polarization we are living with. Identifying what is disinformation is key, discerning the kernels of truth from which conspiracy theories spring, is key. For example, the truth is the US has done some awful things that betrayed the public trust (Tuskegee syphillis experiment, WMD didn’t exist in Iraq, mk ultra) but that doesn’t mean lizard people rule the earth.

[@OddityDK]

What’s the difference between “misinformation” and “disinformation” - which objectively criteria can be used to differentiate between the two?

[@tommyleluan]

I have never seen any evidence that "misinformation" is any worse now than it was 40 years ago. it's also suss that it only started to be a problem anyone cared about in 2016 with brexit and trump's election. People don't care about "misinformation" if it helps their own side and gets them what they want

[@mrcrowly11]

I don't trust you, Sam, or (esepcially) the government to decide what is disinformation. Given the myriad things claimed to be disinformation that turned out to be factual durring covid, I'd say the establishment is the biggest perveyor of disinformation. I'll be using my own faculties to the best of my ability and often get stuff wrong but not as wrong as those who think they have a monopoly on truth.

[@szarkazm]

@@OddityDK I think disinformation is purposely spreading something false, and misinformation is when someone is ignorant of facts and spreads false information u knowingly. I have to revisit the actual definitions though.

[@hoopgal3216]

“Disinformation renders us ungovernable.” If said disinformation is coming FROM the government - it makes us VERY governable lol - which is why govts & certain people want to control the narrative. They can’t have us thinking for ourselves now can they ;)

[@rossriver75yukon27]

Before the term “political correctness” came on, it was called “stereotyping” ( “Hey, you’re stereotyping!”). And even before that, in the 70s, people used to say, “ You’re generalizing”. But always the same motive: To shut you down and end observation.

[@DaboooogA]

Great discussion

[@andreja-yk2nu]

community notes are a great invention but they need improvement

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@frankxu4795]

You mean like You0t-0-be? They delete comments with such arbitrary rules that the whole community notes are completely biased and meaningless.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

@@frankxu4795 That's what it's like (You ot to be) hahaha, for 3 years they been waging psyops and censorship. It doesn't feel good. I just want to be left alone, with personal data proetected, and I don't want to see war talk content.

[@doug3691]

The "reliable expert" challenge has 2 aspects, one is being able to "translate" between different points of view, the other is being able to say intelligent things about a particular subject. And there aren't enough translators currently.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@blackhound89]

This is very interesting topic for me cause I live in Brazil (perhaps one of the only countries in the world with a similar diversified "cultural" sphere as the united states, perhaps even more),but we are much less "free-speech" oriented than USA, to the point that some people literally fled from Brazil to the USA cause they were Free-speech quasi-absolutist (in Brazil you cant say you think a nazi party should have the right to exist for example). But man, are we suffering cause of the lack of fake news control over here. People did a worse version of the January 6 United States Capitol attack cause of fake news which some would argue were just different opinions. People started beliving covid wasnt real and started dying back in the day. Heck, this month we had some massive floods over here and because of some bizarre conspiracy theory that our food and water donations were going to the gov we stopped sending people aid. What is worse is that this was mostly started and ended in twitter, instagram but we cant control it, I wont say it would be better if there was some kind of control, the data for my country specifically is not big enough, but I am not sure if there is a universally right or wrong approach to the question. Like, what works in USA would be disatrous here and vice versa

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@wasdwasdedsf]

"worse version of the January 6 United States Capitol" oh you mean the tourist event of 100 thousand people walking around without a single gun found?

[@wasdwasdedsf]

" People started beliving co wasnt real and started dying back in the day." sweden acted as if wasnt real (because it wasnt, it was as harmful as any other flu season, look at the numbers), and they did better on evrey data point imagineable

[@wasdwasdedsf]

" Like, what works in USA would be disatrous here and vice versa" lol yea, thank god you have daddy government to tell you what to do, would jsut be acomplete disaster otherwise

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

US doesn't have free speech though. You only get that if your rich. There is also rampant data theft. The social media structure is built around influencer worship. These conversations down here become toxic as a result, personal data theft allows them to get under peoples skin and cycle conflict (data harvesting and A.I). Individuals are not valued the same in America (might = right) to U.S Gov officials.

[@user-gy1pu3gq3d]

This conversation belongs in 2016. Same repackaged, reheated garbage over and over.

[@Randomish21]

Our constitutional rights should be protected from any form of overreach private or public

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@virtualsnake1994]

Selection For Societal Sanity.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Rich pampered people are running data analytics on comment section, while stealing and harvesting personal data to create content that drives outrage and war (to increase online ad revenue).

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

KZbin recommendation algorithms are used to increase war sensitivities, which makes US markets rich, drawing attention to online ad revenue. They run data analytics on all of us to amplify hate despair as a business model driver.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@virtualsnake1994]

@@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb i would argue they should select with human improvement in mind. as in, what moves us forward, makes our future lives better. no morally questionable or greedy motives behind their decisions. unfortunately i doubt that's what they do.

[@chriswhite6937]

Metal Gear Solid 2, a game way ahead of its time, truly.

[@psychonautseventen2249]

Bro I lost 2 subscriptions over the years with you and you cut this conversation off at a horrible time. Finish at least part of the question before you end it. Why am I even listening to this anymore.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@bryangipe1]

@@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb No, youtube should not control or steer the conversations in any manner. Let the market of ideas decide what ideas should be amplified and allow the commercial entities follow the people.

[@bhupindertube]

The level of information with social media & internet has passed a limit that makes the sensible information lost. Accurate information is now buried deep inside noise. As Sam point it out, because conspiracy theories more intriguing, they further would be at the forefront on social media (algorithm, etc). To make things worse, social media also have got lots of tools for creating echo chambers (groups, etc.). So, it's not same as printing era at all! Yes, having a single verifiable account could reduce but won't stop. Maybe, the only good news is that a big portion don't believe anything anymore rather than believing in stupid things (lesser of 2 evils).

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@rossriver75yukon27]

You really should mention if you didn’t ( or if it hasn’t already by another poster) “The Closing Of The American Mind” by the late Alan Bloom. That was 1987. So, we can keep going back and back further.

[@wadetisthammer3612]

19:39 to 24:11 - A good argument in favor of free speech.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@cinemar]

We're piling on Roseanne Barr with no push back at all? Really? Sam if you can see the "There were bad people on both sides" comment from Trump for what it really was, can you not do the same for Roseanne? She's explained she didn't even realise that woman she made the Planet of the Apes comment about was black. She doesn't look black.

[@ByTheLake81]

Oof 10:00 ""harassment... OF A PROTECTED CLASS" is the first example from the champion of a free speech organization? We're in trouble.

[@mistercohaagen]

What is the opposite of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI)?

[@treborkroy5280]

Egalitarianism, meritocracy, pluralism

[@stewartdando7755]

@@treborkroy5280 EMP sounds far sexier... 🙂

[@peterthegreat996]

@@treborkroy5280egalitarianism isn’t a fit with meritocracy or even pluralism.

[@treborkroy5280]

@@peterthegreat996 equal rights and opportunities does not equate to equal outcomes, maybe explain your point further?

[@peterthegreat996]

@@treborkroy5280look up the definition of egalitarianism. Also take meritocracy to its logical conclusion..if people deserve their success, the so unsuccessful people deserve their suffering? All you have done is regurgitate the gospel of wealth and social Darwinism . Pluralism, well, that’s self evidently a complete contradiction as diversity is built into the very definition of the concept, as is inclusion. Of course is you meant …deregulating every industry, then I agree . By DEI , are you saying that - deregulating every industry was a bad thing ? Oh btw , this whole idea of “equal outcomes,” is Fox News propaganda.

[@jamesbromley1]

Social media could work as a positive force for finding the truth. It just needs to be structured with the right incentives. Two examples of correctly structured 'social media' are stackoverflow and wikipedia. These platforms are both self regulated by the masses and have become a trusted source of truth. Neither have a have a 'like' button.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@merlepatterson]

Has politics changed much? From the start, Washington was wary about the formation of political parties, convinced that partisans would shred the young nation’s fragile unity. But the first president had accidentally planted the seeds of the two-party system by placing Hamilton and Jefferson, the nation’s most ferocious partisans, in his cabinet. “So seditious, so prostitute a character,” Hamilton said of Jefferson. “A man whose history … is a tissue of machinations against the liberty of the country,” Jefferson wrote of his rival in a 1792 letter to their mutual boss. Credit: NY Post

[@jqyhlmnp]

Politics has changed in how it is presented so now we are fighting more 🤮 Blacks whites men women religious secular; take your pick

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@merlepatterson]

@@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb When business seeks political power is when things go haywire. That's what's currently happening. Business wants to control social outcomes rather than flowing with social changes (or social stability) When a handful of people decide "what's best" for a society is when society pushes back.

[@user-tc7kw6dw6x]

In my country Norway people are now going to actual prison for saying stuff like the n-word or "get back to your own country", wait till it comes to a place near you it's not so funny anymore

[@TheLucanicLord]

Yeah that's exactly the same as telling lies about people so they get death threats.

[@wasdwasdedsf]

@@TheLucanicLord ??? please tell me you cant be this stupid telling lies so that people get threats? why would that be illegal? you mean something that any public figure has done? what about sammy boy over here spewing pure propaganda lies over trump and the followers, which causes undeserved hate towards that side, leading to potential threats

[@ET_LWO]

“Decentralized disconfirmation of information” 30:28

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@ET_LWO]

@@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb Parent company @google #brokers

[@DP-um1ck]

I would adjust Sam's analogy about Alex Jones on X (Twitter) a little bit. In this case Jones is not the waitor costing the restaurant business. He is the loud and drunk customer who gets asked to leave the premise. The question then remains: is this customer banned permanently from Piesanos or does he get another chance to eat there again?

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@DoctorMuno]

Wouldn't a person's or a private institution's stated opinion that someone or something be "canceled" just them using their free speech? Is this guest essentially advocating for the cancelation of the cancelors he doesn't agree with?

[@avengemybreath3084]

Sam just keeps saying “algorithm”. Its not magic, its just that people click on certain things.

[@nineteenninetyfive]

This is all very well but these principles of free speech need to be somehow incorporated into the online tech giants and places of work. The argument that these are private companies who can run their own rules has run its course. The cultural debate and policy making is happening online on these platforms, and for that reason we need free speech in these places, otherwise the democratic process is warped and corrupted.

[@karagi101]

Start your own company and allow 100% free speech. Don’t tell people what to allow on their site. I’m sure you’d impose limits to what people can say in your home.

[@nineteenninetyfive]

@@karagi101 You're not addressing my argument. What's more you don't know me at all so don't tell me what I would and wouldn't do.

[@curiositycloset2359]

@@karagi101 look up the definition of fascism, as that is what we seem to have with governments, and corporations, working in tandem to censor speech.

[@twntwrs]

​@@curiositycloset2359not likely that someone who holds that kind of view is in the habit of looking things up.

[@karagi101]

@@curiositycloset2359 I’m 60 years old. I know what fascism is. Lived through fascist regimes. You don’t seem to understand our system of government. In our system, government can’t ban free speech (with a few exceptions) but private corporations are free to impose limits on what occurs on their sites. They paid for their sites. They have the right to dictate what’s said on them.

[@maplemutt158]

Sam appears to be more concerned with harm done from bad faith actors than he is of censorship. Personally, I'd rather not chuck out the bad so as to decrease the odds of mistakenly discarding the worthy (who ever gets to define it ...). Nothing has changed in that sunshine is still the best (although, not perfect) approach to dealing with disagreeable speech. Show why the speech is wrong, bad, egregious, ... let's not censor it.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@markslist1542]

Sam goes from taking a shot at MTG to advocating for canceling people. Sophisticated guy, but one foot in the ultra far-left.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@hoopgal3216]

Sam Harris - lead detective of the Thought Police 😂

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@michaelsilveradventure5712]

The subject of censorship basically boils down to “how much poison can a system handle before it becomes inoperable?” People who hold the absolutist point of view mistakenly think that Western Democracy is impervious to poison or abuse. There are limits and whenever there are limits there are going to be people who disagree.

[@GMUTaylor6]

Excellent observation. I always thought to myself, if everything is up for debate and relitigation in the public sphere it effectively limits society's collective bandwidth to evaluate new ideas and move the ball forward in other ways. How are we collectively served if once a generation (or a decade) we need to have an all encompassing public debate on if gay marriage, abortion, religion, or guns are ok/not okay. I don't mean to minimize those issues as they impact people's lives but how many other important issues are ignored or actively exploited by bad political actors while the focus is taken.

[@gregorysgarrison]

The worst poison is some group empowered to decide what misinformation is.

[@michaelsilveradventure5712]

@@gregorysgarrison Well in a healthy system, that’s correct; however, we now inhabit a system in which ignorance AND inability to reason is probably on par with medieval times. I don’t have a solution to this other than education so like you I am forced to watch the West collapse. It may be that mathematically speaking in order for our system to survive that a certain level of uncomfortable gate keeping is necessary.

[@thereligionofrationality8257]

There are no limits on free speech by individual citizens. Free speech is NOT poisonous; that is an entirely Orwellian interpretation of free speech, often used by the government, corporations, and other groups who would restrict the right of individuals to express themselves. Real knowledge is still the most powerful tool a citizen can have at his disposal, and the old adage, "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words will never hurt me" is unequivocally and ABSOLUTELY true. Being offended is ALWAYS a character flaw of the offended party, NEVER of the "offending" party (and make no mistake about it, censorship is always about trying to control "offensive" speech).

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@juanReflex37]

Excelente Sam Harris.

[@clarkE111]

Is Sam still pro censorship?

[@amosbackstrom5366]

"It's only hypocrisy when they do it"

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@JakeRoselli]

34:18 The New York Times is trying to be better. Hilarious.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@strongblackcoffee9573]

Oh what a shock.... Sam interviews someone he agrees with 🙄

[@twntwrs]

Pretty much 99.9999% of the people he has on his echo chambered podcast. Those occasions (you can count them on half of one hand) he had on someone that disagreed he labeled those episodes as disasters which he considered not airing.

[@eoris12]

Why you here? Go elsewhere, then.

[@strongblackcoffee9573]

@@eoris12 occasionally Sam talks about mindfulness topics...that's really the only thing I care to listen to him about

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@samdg1234]

Hunter’s laptop has utterly broken Sam.

[@joedoggo4856]

I'll be looking forward to the I.C.C issues Benjamin Netanyahu an arrest warrant episode. Always value Sam's opinion on pretty much every topic over any other intellectual.

[@truetech4158]

I was scratching my head when i heard micheal brooks and sam sedar take a hypothetical out of context without any disclaimer, as they were trying to suggest sam harris wanted to bomb the middle east, even though he mentioned about his question was in fact a hypothetical he stated . Benji is a moral mess and people who try to manipulate the public opinion without attending debates.

[@troy3456789]

@@truetech4158 Who is Benji? your best attempt to be edgy?

[@Ihatemyusernamemore]

They're doing Israel a favour, he's corrupt AF, and they prosecuted Hamas as well as they should, both sides in that charade of a war are bad and the sooner it ends so everyone can go back to focusing on the INFINITELY more important war in Ukraine the better

[@toby9999]

I doubt that will happen, nor should it. He's defending his country against an axis of evil that has been bombing Israeli civilians for 18 years. These "terrorists" are in cohorts with ruzzia, Iran, and a bunch of other scum dictators. I stand with Israel. The Jews have been persecuted and tossed to the four winds for the past 2500 years. Time it stops.

[@radscorpion8]

Why? You know what he is going to say before he says it. If anything that devalues his worth as an intellectual, unless you only like listening to people who agree with you

[@fabian-hugsforhikers]

As a German, I was quite disappointed in the very superficial and shallow analysis of the speech limitations in my country. Particularly the German law is much more nuanced than it is portrayed here. It serves a very practical and meaningful purpose that even extends to the public funding of political parties etc. (and it does that relatively well). Again, this part of the conversation was really odd to me. The German law could serve as a fantastic example for an exploration on how the concept of a "marketplace of ideas" in general might be a very narrow and limited concept regarding its practical implications.

[@spellandshield]

Was erwartest du eigentlich von ein paar Amis, die denken, dass die ganze Welt sich nur um ihr Land dreht? Mich hat es jedenfalls nicht enttäuscht, da ich von Enttäuscung diesbezüglich ausgegangen bin.

[@Mac-ku3xu]

Ask CJ Hopkins about German "free speech". It doesn't exist.

[@heikkipaasi1279]

I think that the American principle of "offensiveness alone is not a basis for limiting free speech" is a more rigorous system than what European countries typically have. A lot of nuance is indeed needed for defining that offensiveness and when it is enough for limiting speech. This does not mean that one is being executed better in practice though. Only a small part of the problems with our information landscape have anything to do with this however and mostly it's a matter of socially enforced speech rules and policies inside private companies. Which is the main focus of the dicussion I think.

[@twntwrs]

Your oh so exalted and pristine German law (that you are fetishizing here) is what is currently enabling your state media to collude with your establishment parties and a government that is weaponising your "Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution" (can't make this s*** up - Orwell is spinning in his grave) to vilify if not suppress if not outright ban Germany's second most popular political party. Germans pontificating on free speech never fails to amuse!

[@fabian-hugsforhikers]

@@heikkipaasi1279 Again, I'm afraid this is a misrepresentation of the nuanced limitations of free speech in Germany. They are not only concerned with offensiveness. They also do have many more practical implications for example on the usage of taxes, it is not comparable with the US.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Sam, I need you to stay out of my personal data, and stop waging psyops with my personal data. Please and thank you. I wont budge on this, I need my cognitive autonomy. Please and thank you.

[@franckiewicz0831]

Sheesh, Sam’s desire for government censorship is insane.

[@godisbollocks]

Yeah, because let's just let stupid and dangerous misinformation spread throughout the community. We saw how beneficial that was during Covid.

[@Mac-ku3xu]

Only when it involves people in small hats being criticised.

[@toby9999]

Maybe you simply misunderstood his position?

[@toby9999]

​@Mac-ku3xu Perhaps you can not differentiate hate speech from free speech?

[@Mac-ku3xu]

@@toby9999 Criticising the actions of the Israeli military is not "hate speech". Although it is now illegal in America.

[@eljeffrinho]

This guy has that unlistenable upwards inflection, strangely lots of tech people have a similar speech defect. I guess they think it makes them sound more expressive and less robotic. Wrong.

[@FigmentHF]

I’d love more science and philosophy, more astrophysics and origins of quantum mechanics, and less war, both physical and cultural, and less politics

[@tybaltyrant1]

A lot of bots in the chat

[@ajudicator]

Aka people who disagree with you?

[@curiositycloset2359]

It's great that bots are dehumanized and therefore fine to censor.

[@michellemeister1317]

@@curiositycloset2359how can you dehumanize something that isn’t human

[@curiositycloset2359]

@@michellemeister1317 they only seem to be inhuman when people disagree with them.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@Jules-Was-an-AnCap]

This is a very good episode, I think it's become pretty clear to me, as to what's going on in terms of a slight difference btw Sam's approach to this subject matter, as slightly differentiated from that of ppl probably like both Greg and myself. These two approaches aren't particularly at odds in any way, just starting from a somewhat different set of considerations: Sam seems mainly focused on how audiences and groups, especially LARGE ones in society, will be influenced by information. It's not good or bad, just an appropriate characterization, to say that this set of considerations bears resemblance to that of a politician for example, (or a public intellectual who manages to be widely successful across a range of media, lol). I won't exactly equate my approach to media and info with Greg's, but speaking for myself, I have almost zero concern with diving into narrow, little-frequented areas of media, that might be inappropriate, biased, misleading, but contain either an interesting sociological perspective indicative of the workings of a subset of the population, or sometimes actually contain surprisingly useful info that will not be available elsewhere. Again, Sam wouldn't say that someone like me shouldn't be free to search the web (as an adult) and access ALL kinds of legal content, as I so wish. (Actually, one of my few disagreements with Sam involves a case in which he WOULD want to restrict me in such a way, at the risk of belaboring the point this involves Covid, and the expediency with which restrictive martial law should be effectively declared, I maintain that he's moderately misaligned on this point, and Claire Lehmann is perhaps maximally misaligned). He's rly talking mostly abt norms. He thinks ppl should have certain kinds of sensibilities, reflected at the height of MAINSTREAM discourse, in a way that's maintained via the marketplace, editorial decisions made by privately owned companies, policies set by individuals who own platforms, etc. Is social media now equated with the public sphere? Well of course, literally/legally, no. But figuratively, and implicitly? That depends on how both citizens and company owners DECIDE to treat the platforms. Clearly my own sensibility is not so neatly shaped within the parameters of the mainstream zeitgeist. However, does that mean that my eclectic and idiosyncratic palate should be maximally amplified in the public discourse? The answer is, that actually depends on consumer demand, popular sentiment, and on what kinds of products/content are made available by large companies. Personally, I usually think meta-trolls are hilarious. But when it's the president? When it's our leading industrialist (Elon) who's trwling on our biggest platform for lolz? Sure, I can obviously see how this is potentially corrosive to civil discourse. But again, here's where Sam and I might slightly differ: what should happen next? It sounds from this episode like we'd agree more than I necessarily realized, but my answer is that until existing laws are broken, it's the market that decides what happens next. And it's normative culture. How are norms shaped? It's an interesting question, suffice it to say I'm convinced it generally involves incremental evolution over centuries rather than decades, at least when getting down to socionormative bedrock. So, will the market select against Elon's newish Frankenstein platform, wherein shifting company policies are determined by a combination of the First Amendment, and whatever mood memelord Musk is in on a given day? Sry Sam, I'm not exactly thrilled abt the mess this potentially creates, but the answer is determined by whatever a critical mass of platform users decide, and how many or few ultimately decide to take their business elsewhere. Are they captured by an algorithm? Has our mainstream culture completely degenerated? I obviously hope not, yet I also can't exactly say that I think an Elon-type disruptor shaking up the major social media space is 100% bad. But either way (as Greg essentially argues) you and I and everyone will continually be made aware of the state of our culture, as marketplace dynamics and disruptive public conversations continue to play out, in our free liberal society.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@Jules-Was-an-AnCap]

​@@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb Should anyone be stealing my data? No. Should everyone have a VPN? Yes. Is Andrew Yang correct that tech companies owe all Americans a dividend for valuable stolen data? Yes, although that would only cover around 30% of his proposed UBI.

[@LateGameThreat]

This guy makes next to no sense. Here we are talking about censorship which two men apparently agree on but at the same time there is zero "conspiracy" to shut people up. This guy should throw his degree in the trash.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@user-qk2rt1cn2s]

This conversation was concluded a few centuries ago now. Nothing has changed. We are in a sticky situation, but we will get through it. There is no worse speech than that which advocates censorship - no speech has done more damage in human history - and yet i support Sam's right to advocate it, as dangerous as it and he is.

[@brianmeen2158]

Social media is definitely a tricky issue when it comes to censoring. I mean, should the kkk be able to run a channel on here? I have to say that KZbin needs to tweak its algorithm a bit because it’s deleting way too many comments. I just had a comment deleted twice and I was simply talking about the cover of a videogame box

[@user-qk2rt1cn2s]

@@brianmeen2158 Yes. They should. It serves us to know that bad ideas exist, where they exist, so we can counter with better ideas.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@TheKentuckyNightmare]

What are Sam's political credentials, again?

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@simonwilton3546]

Given that Sam is pro censoship ( Hunters disgusting laptop) Im not sure how much value I can put on his opinions here.

[@cinemar]

And four years later he's quite happy to look at the story and have it reported on. How brave.

[@peterthegreat996]

Sam greatly over simplified the Waco incident there . Yes the government was way over the top but shady stuff ( and illegal) was going on.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

What illegal things exactly?

[@chrisofbangkok]

I really think that you need to debate with more Europeans on the subjet, you're point of view is a caricature. Not sure that you have more "free speech" in fine in US than in US. You just have the "luck" to let crazy guy like Alex Jones, where we have laws to restricted that. But please make the comparaison about gender, wokism and so on. I'm prettu sure that Europe is more free on those topics.

[@wasdwasdedsf]

"You just have the "luck" to let crazy guy like Alex Jones, where we have laws to restricted that." we dont have laws to restrict whatever you think he did... he did not by any law deserve to be sued for the GDP of france... what planet are you on?

[@Impressive__]

Id love to hear Sams thoughts on the USS Liberty incident. Or why jews have been kicked out of 109 countries throughout history. These topics are brought up a lot these days and I don't know how to respond to them. beep boop. I am not a bot beep beep boop.

[@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000]

Because they have been discriminated against? Blamed by religious (Islamic, Christian), fascists, and communists.

[@curiositycloset2359]

​@@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000that's begs the question, why have they been discriminated against?

[@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000]

@@curiositycloset2359 the religous element is because historically the Jews declined both jesus and mohammed as prophets, so that's 4 billion potential people on board already. They've been painted as money grabbing, generally as an enemy of a nation, as propaganda by Hitler and stain (which added to the religious element, just compounds the problem) I don't think you'll find actual evidence to say why they deserve to be ostracised though.

[@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000]

@@curiositycloset2359 my reply was deleted

[@Impressive__]

@@FlyingSpaghettiMonster2000 so type it again

[@user-cx5qi1mx6p]

Israel

[@migarsormrapophis2755]

Sam's comparison of social media to a restaurant that fires an employee or blacklists a customer is quite flawed. The purpose of a restaurant is to serve food, the purpose of a social media platform is to enable people to speak to each other. A social media platform that's too restrictive with speech is doomed - unless the government forces all social media platforms to conform to a certain standard of what is and isn't allowed, in which case, there won't be any competition, and everything will just suck. People want to be able to speak freely. As long as a service offers that, and isn't being artificially restricted by the powers that be, like what goes on in China, it will always win. Also, Sam's info on 4 and 8chan is a little bit outdated - they're not particularly free platforms anymore.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@DoctorMuno]

The purpose of the restaurant is for the owner to make money. The purpose of social media companies is to make money. Customers of both are essentially being used.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

@@DoctorMuno Theft isn't a business model though (even when off the platform). This is the thing, a company that steals personal data, to drive derangement through psyops, harvest personal data to do it, isn't catering to a costumer (they are kicking their customers, while looping their wallets). That's a huge difference. Plus, they cycle wars for profit, data driven conflict amplification for ad revenue, killing little children in the process.

[@truetech4158]

I might be one of the most shadowbanned atheists by the junk journalists in the political venues.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@Sunfried1]

Sam Harris- master of the micro-pause, one of his more peculiar conversational habits.

[@toby9999]

I like them. It beats being a blabber mouth.

[@twntwrs]

An essential ingredient of his gravitas simulation...

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@TotalWarzz]

Bro Sam fell off 😂

[@mishaarthur7689]

"Everyone I disagree with has changed. It's impossible to conceive of a world where I have changed and not noticed it." That's you

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@hooligan9794]

Sam still hasn't learned the lesson of why free speech is important and why consequences for speech is a dangerous game.

[@DandelionScribe]

Imagine being an author and not understanding this. It makes me think Sam Harris knows it, but doesn't care.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be amplifying (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

This Tech Company business model (data theft) seems to be leading the world to destruction, with a smile.

[@coolexio]

It appears you are the one who has a comprehension problem. He has clearly stated his support for free speech, he qualifies that support by stating very clearly that private organizations have the right to decide what they allow on their platforms. It's this qualification that free speech absolutists like you seem to miss, whether deliberately or not.

[@hooligan9794]

@coolexio Oh the irony. You are not comprehending. I understood Sam's point, but Sam, like every censor in history, has failed to understand the perils of controlling speech. Sam has been deranged by Donald Trump. He supported the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop story, for example; which turned out to be completely legit despite government agencies trying to run cover for Biden on it. He said basically that it was OK to conspire to undermine democracy in order to save democracy. Completely deranged. He would never admit to it but what he wants is censorship of political speech he doesn't like. Sam is an intelligent fellow. He isn't just going to come out and say it directly. He will rationalise it. And before you accuse me of hating on Sam or misrepresenting him, I spent 15 years or more very much appreciating Sam's work, but he is just wrong on this one and sadly his hatred of Donald Trump has caused him to lose his mind a little bit.

[@andreja-yk2nu]

sam stop being such an authoritarian please

[@atlasfeynman1039]

That sounds like a command.

[@wanka078]

@@atlasfeynman1039 Indeed..very authoritarian undertones in that comment..

[@mishaarthur7689]

"SAM STOP ENGAGING IN WRONGTHINK PLZ" Truly irony is dead

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@sulljoh1]

The pay wall is a bit authoritarian Blocking access to those who disagree with the payment model and are too honest to lie about their income

[@Pod6168]

Sam is a fierce advocate for free speech when it comes to speech in which he is in agreement.

[@Re3iRtH]

Exactly. He is completely wrong on Trump as well

[@treborkroy5280]

"We protect speech we agree with"

[@parsafakhar]

lol so true

[@stewartdando7755]

Nonsense. Sam is a big believer in free speech. He doesn't want to stop people voicing troubling opinions. He's happy to debate those. He does, however, have an issue with speech that promotes dangerous and violent ideologies. That isn't the same thing...

[@AlexBerezovskyJr]

You should chek out his interview with constantin kussin ​@stewartdando7755

[@user-vw6fu3yd4e]

Sam voted for someone that is directly contributing to the world being on fire. Thanks bro.

[@mishaarthur7689]

The only way that that statement would not apply to you is if you did not vote at all.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@markslist1542]

Sam Harris celebrates that Alex Jones was buried out in the digital desert. That's not sociopath speak.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@wvhollargirl7549]

SAM i am struggling with your take on this conflict. I'm being honest and open, but please don't become what you taught me is incorrect.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@jakeherter]

The canceling of the American mind isn't coming from people who actually get to experience higher education and then some kind of political cancellation. It's people like me who were born to drug addicts who did not save a dime for them to experience higher education and I'm forced to be an app delivery driver in my mid-30s.

[@cortical1]

Do you want to attend college, Jake? What would you like to study? Cheers.

[@jakeherter]

@@cortical1 no I have lived in my entire adult life homeless I live in a car and I have to work for gig services, I'm also 36 and well past anytime anyone would help me facilitate an education.

[@cortical1]

@@jakeherter I'm asking if you want to, not if you think you will be able. Would you want to and what would you like to study?

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@pfc_church]

I have an issue right at the start. While I understand that your experience is in speech the law that says this private institution can't censore runs counter to the private schools policies on religion. If government can tell the private school what they can and can't do about speech, then they can also set rules for religion in a private school as well, correct? If your thinking that's it's true your logic is constant but I think we both agree that doesnt happen for practicing religion.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

Religion is explicitly protected.

[@pfc_church]

@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb yes and so is speech.

[@chuksamajor3020]

Sam begins the discussion by extolling the virtues of free speech. He ends the conversation by celebrating the censorship of offensive speech. He’s a perfect example of what can happen when you’re smart enough to think yourself into delusion.

[@tybaltyrant1]

💯

[@toby9999]

Then you're missing the point.

[@fensteroffen]

Would the optimum not lie between those two extremes though?

[@Todd361]

​@@fensteroffenthe middle ground between peace and genocide is murder. Sometimes meeting in the middle isn't ideal.

[@fensteroffen]

@@Todd361 peace and genocide is not the two extremes, peace and war is or more basic: cooperative and aggressive behavior. to adress the core of your argument: we integrated aggression and violence into our society. we kill animals to eat and survive, we put criminals in jail, we destroy ressources to live a more comfortable life. to pretend we don't use aggression and violence for a greater benefit of society is blind pacifism, imo.

[@jakeherter]

Just can't listen to privileged people talk about their non problems.

[@toby9999]

Then don't. Bye-bye, no one will notice you leaving the room.

[@jakeherter]

@@toby9999 I left that's the point of my comment. This conversation is just worthless to listen to.

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@CP-nl2zb]

Sam is a World Champion Pseudo intellectual. Sammy The Pseudo Harris.

[@jakeherter]

He has a PHD in neuroscience

[@bubbafowpend9943]

I dunno why, but each time you post this same inane comment, I picture a 50 y.o. neckbeard with a fedora in their parents' basement waiting for Sam to post so he can copy/paste this for the 900th time as quickly as he can, going, "hur hur hur... i showed Sam hur hur" I could be wrong, but I don't think that I am🤷🏼‍♂️

[@Ihatemyusernamemore]

@@bubbafowpend9943 I was picturing a twig armed """communist""" sitting in a dingey dark curtain drawn student flat that reeks of cigarettes, but your description sounds even more accurate

[@hooligan9794]

​@@jakeherterI would love to know what point you think you made there?

[@stewartdando7755]

@@jakeherter Which, I'm guessing, the author of that comment does not...

[@robinhood20253]

Damn Sam , have you joined the morons with the red hats ? Watch Jon Stewart today , he explains cancel culture well.

[@toby9999]

What's your problem with Sam's position?

[@robinhood20253]

@@toby9999 because the true cancel culture is done by the right If you don't support trump and participate in his grift on the American people you will be cancelled or at least doxxes and threatened. It's funny to hear people cry about being cancelled by the left after the Disney and bud light fiascos. Conservatives are so grievances by anything that doesn't put them at the center. Most of them already hold that victim mentality from Christianity , and they have always help privilege being white so now they cry 24/7

[@KipEarlywine]

Look at the comments here, the red hats hate Sam. As far as Jon Stewart, his take on cancel culture is intentionally incomplete. He only focuses on the conservative version of cancel culture (which is real), while turning a complete blind eye to actual problem the far left is creating. It's possible that Stewart is ignorant, but I suspect he knows better and is trying to shift blame instead of owning up to a big problem of the far left. In the Sam Harris podcast here, they actually talk about cancel culture both on the left and right. They explain cancel culture far better, in far more detail, and without pretending it is only a problem for one side, than Stewart did.

[@robinhood20253]

@@KipEarlywine disagree .

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin be (stealing personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@anuragsinha2013]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/p4utdmqagcyZrsU Douglas Murray dismantle the word "Islamophobia". Talks about Amin Al Hussaini reception in Egypt.

[@ronishamay]

Can someone tell sam harris @destiny \ steven bonell ii wants to chat with him?

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin and gov continue to (steal personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@sandormiglecz1186]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

[@NicholasWilliams-kd3eb]

Should KZbin and gov continue to (steal personal data) using it to amplify (sensitivities towards conflict) for (attention based ad revenue profit)?

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

This just gets weaponized to exclude almost anyone who is even a little outside the mainstream from politics