Satan in Mormonism w/ John Larsen | Ep. 1870

John Larsen explores the role of Satan in Mormon theology, including his origins, powers, and purpose. Key topics discussed are the problems of evil and human agency, Mormon concepts of the afterlife, the elaborate powers ascribed to Satan, theological issues like why an all-powerful God would allow Satan to thrive or even reward him in the end. Larsen argues these issues point to flaws in the Mormon Plan of Salvation and suggests Satan must be part of the Godhead, concluding that Mormon doctrines concerning Satan lead to profound philosophical problems in Mormon theology.
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol... ‎
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Chapters
00:00:00 Intro
00:02:40 It was Carah’s birthday!
00:04:21 Three main questions
00:09:25 The Devil is a real character that shows up
00:13:09 Eternal punishment was not canonized until 1550 A.D. from the Council of Trent
00:18:10 The Book of Mormon is missing key elements
00:20:05 Book of Mormon teachings about agency
00:24:25 Hell in the Book of Mormon
00:29:50 The Devil and his superpowers
00:35:00 List of superpowers
00:49:15 The nature of man is the devil, it’s an enemy to God
00:50:00 The Devil wins, the Devil takes everything
00:56:55 There are only two possible answers to the Devil
01:11:30 All you have is Now
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[@loubylou1899]

For a church of Jesus Christ I always thought Satan got a disproportionate amount of airtime. It actually traumatised me growing up. He hasn't featured in my life whatsoever since I left.

[@justkiddin84]

That’s sad. But it’s a tool of fear. And cults need fearful people. Glad you are free of it!✌️♥️

[@CelestialBarbie]

He hasn’t featured in my life 😂😭that’s so funny!! I really can relate!

[@auriejeffery]

John Dehlin and everyone on Mormon Stories, my eternal gratitude to you as well. It’s like Mormonism is a sinking ship, and I was deep below deck, and you and your guests have stood like lifeguards and shown me and my family the way out. I couldn’t leave without them, and you helped give us the safe space and information we needed to escape as a family. Our best wishes to John Larsen on his future adventures!

[@kingimatthews4481]

yes john an his live casts are a must see, must hear, must contemplated videos ive ever seen. he is the mediator for like mined souls to pass over into the real world of worship. let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works, and glorify your father which is in heaven. amen

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

What a FANTASTIC episode for John Larsen to end on! He is such a a gift. Listening to this episode made me realize the emotional and psychological abuse I grew up with just by default of being innocently subjected to the Mormon theology of Satan and evil.

[@Wren402]

Thank you John Larsen for teaching me so much more about Mormon history and theology than I ever learned growing up at church. You have done all of us a great service. Good luck with all your endeavors. May peace be with you all your days.

[@waterfall_brook]

I'd already seen John Larson's video explaining why he's leaving, so I knew I knew this would be a bittersweet episode going into it. The episode was awesome, breaking down Satan in all the ways I've considered him in my lifetime! I loved it! John Larson, you will be missed in this space, but you have done so much for us, no one can ask for more. Go, watch your seeds sprout and your chickens run around, and be in love with life and the earth and the world. You deserve all the peace your heart can find. This space will miss you, but we'll be okay. You've left a treasure trove of hard work for us all to learn from for decades to come. Thank you so much for everything!

[@VioletShinobi]

When I was in dark depths of my own faith crisis John Larsen's was one of the voices that guided me back to the "light." You helped me move on from mormonism. I'm glad that you're moving on as well. And I wish you the best.

[@ExmoRaymo]

John Larsen is such a voice of reason. So proud of him and the inspiration he has provided to me over these last few years. ❤

[@moesyah]

we will miss john larsen's wisdom on the subject of mormonism. the contradiction he points out with 2 nephi and helaman on free will is blowing my mind. it's been there all this time and this is the first time i've heard anyone point it out. thanks for everything john. wishing you all the best.

[@gladtobefreeagain7375]

Maybe Joseph Smith missed that (concentrated on different things) when he wrote the two different chapters. (Won't honor his lies about translating BOM.) I doubt he would have corrected anything even if he had known. Arrogance is prerequisite to starting one's on church in 19th century with at least ten to twenty other Protestant denominations.

[@lorinapetranova2607]

George Bernard Shaw the playwright said: In Hell, the devil is nobody in particular.

[@justkiddin84]

Oh, that is a great one!

[@markkrispin6944]

Thank you John Larsen for everything you had done for us. I am going to miss your "F Bombs". I wish you the very best John Larsen as you are the GOAT.

[@Sadie37]

John Larson you have been so influential in so many of our lives! Thank you from the bottom of my heart, you will be so missed! Love you brother ❤

[@slavbarbie]

Is this the last episode with him ever??

[@Sadie37]

@@slavbarbie yes 😔

[@strega_in_vegas]

John Dehlin’s and Nuance’s responses to your exit breaks my heart. Please know how important and appreciated you are. Thank you. Carry on and conquer.

[@SluzzleB]

For 35 years, I questioned mosquitoes. After moving to central America i learned mosquitos are a biting midge. Primary pollinators of the cacao plant. Essentially we wouldn't have chocolate without mosquitos. I went to Germany on my mission and love chocolate to a very healthy level. I've equally hated mosquitos. Now i love them both but prefer the company of one more than the other. 😊

[@adriwatergirl2474]

Thank you so much John Larsen for being such an active, brave, and sincere voice in the Ex-Mormon and Post-Religion community. I’ve laughed so much when you’re on MS as a guest and learned so much from your delightful extensive rants. Your dynamic with Jon D and Carah is one of my favorites in podcast history and now I’m going to binge all your episodes together! I can’t express how much of an inspiration you’ve been to me on my journey into understanding human behavior, cultures and the effects of influence and I hope someday I can be somewhat close to learned and critical as you are. I wish you the best fulfillment, noble success and the sweet and sour fruits of life this world offers in everything you do from here onward!!!! We’ll miss you and we can’t thank you enough 💙💙💙

[@pennamealias]

Love John Larsen...I wish him the best in all of his future endeavors and hope his farm is thriving!

[@LazarWolf07]

Anyone else wish they had grown up to be as clever and passionate as John Larsen?

[@yu12si7]

Three of my favorite loving people all together here. Thank you so much.

[@markshwack1]

What an episode to go out with. Masterclass. Thank you for all of your work John, i wish you the very best moving forward.

[@PARebecca]

I will miss John Larsen but I understand why he needs to step away,

[@auzziemel8983]

So glad John Larsen has found the peace he needs 🙌 ❤

[@rachelhansen2417]

Thank you, John Larsen. You’ve helped so many of us in our time of need.

[@belalima5779]

Is this Larson's last? Hope he finds peace in his decision. He's such a good guy with the greatest heart.

[@coldwar45]

Yep

[@jameswalberg3265]

Highly recommended podcast. Listen to John Larsen's final Mormon related podcast. He is a legend who will be missed on this channel but has plenty of content on this channel (Mormon Expression( and his own. Salutations John. You will feel smarter and better informed on any subject after listening to him. We need to celebrate this phenomenal man

[@harlanlang6556]

In case you haven't noticed, Jon Stewart returned to Comedy Central, so John Larson may some day return at the Time of the End to confront Satan! I've learned a lot from John, maybe more than I need to know about Mormonism, but I've found it inspiring even as a never-Mo. I really agree with John that humans doing the right thing to benefit humanity for no reward at all personally is a highly spiritual sense of purpose. Whatever is not a part of material reality can be called spiritual, including all those qualities that make life meaningful and good, including humor, kindness, mercy, love, beauty, intellect. And I think that Shakespeare's description of the world being a stage where we all are performers in this epic story of humanity, is worth pondering. Mormonism is just a little piece of the story being played out. Ex-Mormons would not be the people they are today if Mormonism had never existed. You'd maybe be like so many other never-Mos drinking beer and eating cheeseburgers while you listen to country music. I don't think John mentioned the influence of Zoroastrianism on the Hebrew concept of Satan. Some scholars claim that the Jews had no concept of Satan until they were taken as captives to Babylonia and came in contact with Zoroastrians who did have a belief in life being a struggle between good and evil, between Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord) and Ahriman (Satan). King Cyrus (the Great), a Zoroastrian, conquered Babylonia, freed the Jews and even gave them the money to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. Cyrus is called God's Anointed, or Messiah, in Isaiah 45:1. Christians don't usually speak of Jesus as being the second Messiah, but the Jews were probably expecting their second Messiah to be more like King Cyrus with a conquering army. It's also interesting that the Magi, Zoroastrian priests, also are reported to have come to Israel to pay homage to the baby Jesus. This may or may not have actually happened, but why did the early Christians feel the need to put Zoroastrians into this story?

[@Sabrina_Likethe_Witch]

John, John, and Carah THANK YOU and Happy Friday!

[@tufflion3344]

All is within. All the heavans and hells are within us. Once we look at healing our inner child, harmonising the shadow self, taming our inner beasts, putting our ego behind us to support us for good, and connecting with soul, our higher mind, once this is an inner marriage and whole healed union within then we have achieved to know who and what we are which is outside of any religion.

[@harlanlang6556]

The great World Religions all have a mystical core which includes what you're talking about. This is not a part of the religious organizations or community practices, but on the individual level it exists even in the lesser known tribal religions. You might say that all religions are united at this level.

[@coldwar45]

Good luck in your future John! I’ll be following your farming blog! Thanks so much for your time and for the entertainment the last few years

[@loraleenunley7979]

This was so good. We will miss you John Larson But excited for you in your new adventures. Grateful to assist with dabblerfarms

[@alainepare9763]

I have followed you since 2005…..what a blessing you have been! Much ,much love💝

[@judysocal8682]

All the best to John L and his adventures in community and farming. I have found the Dabbler Cast podcast and look forward to good agriculture stories.

[@MichelleMyBelle33]

I have went to church on Ash Wednesday. My sister is Lutheran and she always invites us to go. We’d like to go on Good Friday, and on Easter too. They do a dramatic reading of Jesus last week that is really good. And then reading of Jesus coming back after he died it’s really a good way to spend your Easter.

[@NerdyGirlLiveLove]

Thank you John. Learned so much from you past few years. Thank you

[@JustinWright26]

John Larsen's words are inspiring! Thank you so much.

[@BG-ig6fd]

It must have been exhausting to have been so passionately deep inside and then so deep outside of a religion for almost 50 years. I understand the need for peace and distance and a clean head space to concentrate on other things. A sort of cleansing or purging. However, I wonder if you might continue to share your pearls of wisdom on life, on humans, on whatever’s going on in the world, from time to time. Thank you, John Larsen.

[@moorlilly]

One of the best podcast in mormon stories for sure! The eloquence and the intelligence of Dr. John Larson is amazing!

[@jswallet]

I'm going to miss John Larsen. He's a true scholar.

[@shelagh7850]

When I taught in Central California, many of our Hmong and Cambodian students came to school with round burns on their foreheads. It was a religious practice in the Buddhist church. We had to learn not to report it as child abuse as the practice was saving the child.

[@mattjohansson8931]

Gees that was like one of those awesome parties, and at the end your mate tells you he's leaving the country to live somewhere else. Alot of fun, but bloody sad. I've sat at a chemical plant night shift listening to these, laughing and crying my way through my mormon past. Gonna miss you John..lots of love and gratitude for your perspective brother. You guys have helped myself and my family big time. Lots of love to you all ❤

[@patriciatorres5599]

Thank you for this opportunity to share with us the best message love it

[@whitajeman]

Thank you John Larsen for all you knowlege and insight you have gifted us! Im so thankful for you!!

[@brooke_reiverrose2949]

Congratulations Cara, congratulations John on your new chapter! I’m itching to get a John Larsen booklist. Are you on goodreads? Looking forward the new podcast as well. What you are saying about modern life, community, and meaning really resonates.

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

Onward and upward John Larsen!

[@_Nat_A_]

Thank you John. As a never Mormon, who studied it in a “Cult and Sect” university course, this church has always fascinated me. You all blew me away with learning that Easter isn’t celebrated… of course it isn’t!

[@rachelbluth4088]

I love John Larsen. I'm a no-mo but I've learnt so much from him. You rock, John. Much love to you and yours. ❤

[@cabbking]

John Larson-I would like to contact you about volunteering on your farm??

[@kathrynclass2915]

55:26 you’ve made the ultimate point, John Larsen!

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you. Will be Watching from Alaska. This is important.

[@rtmclerk1]

John Larsen I have enjoyed all your content, and have learned so much from you. I will miss you.😢

[@leerhea9298]

John, I know it’s on me to process your departure-from my initial sense of loss, into the less selfish spirit of celebrating your continuing journey of discovery. All the very best wishes. Lee

[@andreadiamond7115]

Commenting to help. Gonna miss you John Larson and Carah! Thank you Dr Dehlin and team ❤️

[@CountrySheeper]

OMG. 20:50, this question was one I posed to missionaries when they were desperately trying to convert me. I said it sounds like Satan was doing Gods work just as much as Jesus then, if he was just doing what his father required? My fiancé's Mormon family (reader, I did not marry him) were so utterly horrified by this that they called me a devil-worshipper. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@KatD-om7xu]

Coming back to Utah from Texas took me to hell, not Zion. My eyes were opened as I saw those who would preside turn a blind eye to the very abuse they perpetuate. I thought my story, my 40 something years in the church of abuse was one bad apple in a bunch, solitary, me being the only common denominator. After I left Mormonism, I found those who used to be Mormon, who spoke up. Because you educated me and taught me why there were so many wolves in sheep‘s clothing, I was no longer alone and suddenly validated. Thank you. Now I use my voice in the hopes of educating the naïve so they recognize the devil when they see him.

[@OOSPassie]

Hi @John Larssen. Never thought you'd still be doing these... Thnx though.

[@JohnLarsen1]

Oddly enough, this is my last one. We talk about it at the end.

[@coldwar45]

This is his last one

[@coldwar45]

@@JohnLarsen1Thanks John loved your episodes, especially the ETB one

[@andreab79]

John Larsen is amazing, sad to see this end! Best of luck John!

[@lancegritton214]

it's tough to make order out of chaos. you did well. I can't wait for your next projects. You rock bro!

[@danielvilliers9294]

I really love your podcast, and have learned a great deal about Mormonism. Your interview with Steve Hassan was of the greatest podcast interviews I’ve ever seen. Perhaps the title of your podcast limits the scope of interview freedom outside of Mormonism, but if not, I sure would love to see more!

[@lauraann1684]

Will miss hanging out and laughing with you three. Good journey and happy future!

[@user-eu8nm2dc1y]

Thank you, John Larsen!!! Live and appreciate you. You've definitely helped me in my journey.

[@jenniferanderson4201]

John, you are such a gift. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your heart and soul with us. You've been a real gift in my life. Thank you❤

[@ZakMakoff]

I'm excited for this episode, I'm gonna miss John Larson but I'm going to follow his farming show! Thanks Mormon Stories!

[@jennifersullivan2718]

This is a powerful and important episode, thank you. Happy belated birthday wishes, Carah (lol, loved your "razzle dazzle" quip)!

[@gordonwilliams7667]

Good show, interesting content, I love hearing the three of you discuss these things

[@laurenanderson61]

You all have captured my non-Mormon Christian crisis of faith. The Mormon view of Satan is pretty much the Christian view, but more

[@ExmoRaymo]

I would love to have a list of his 50 most influential books.

[@rooheath]

The pub in our village is literally older than hell! Love it 😂

[@TheNightriff]

I will miss Mr Larsen very much on MSP, some of my favorite episodes ever. I hope he continues with the Dabbler Cast, I've enjoyed it so far and enjoy listening to him talk about his passions (whether it's shitting on the church or not). I haven't had a chance to watch yet, I hope this gets uploaded sooner rather than later. Thanks for all you do John and the team. How do I go about rerouting my donation from expression to the general open stories one?

[@robynwilson6884]

John Larsen something you said reminded me of a quote from the movie Dazed and Confused. I want to share it because it feels relevant. "All I'm saying is I want to look back and say I did the best that I could while I was stuck in this place. Had as much fun as I could while I was stuck in this place. Played as hard as I could while I was stuck in this place..."

[@maxjenkins7139]

Thanks John Larson so much for your podcasts. You are a good man. Knowing your philosophy you will do well in your future endeavors. Good luck

[@elwren75]

Would a bookstore like Ken Sanders Books be interested in John Larsen’s collection?

[@Amerikan25]

I miss this OG crew! Please please please keep going this you guys are keeping people alive! 🤘

[@drmay]

1:06:29 Possibly the best summation of my feelings by Carah. Thank you so much @nuancehoe

[@abundancegirl8818]

Great show. John Larsen is a legend. He deserves the best.

[@function0077]

I grew up in the Seattle area as a Mormon. After college I ended up working in Chicago. As an adult, I almost told a coworker they had something on their forehead on my first Ash Wednesday in Chicago, because I had never seen or heard about this tradition.

[@disturbingthepiece2788]

John Lawson is the Business!!!!! Good luck in your new phase of a happy, healthy life...

[@jamietodd3728]

BEST EPISODE EVER ❤ Thank you so much for everything you guys do. I'm a better person because of the knowledge I've gained from episodes like this and many other Mormon Stories 😊😊😊

[@disturbingthepiece2788]

Very interesting segment..... Great job!

[@MelePaasi]

Literally listened to this first thing in the morning. Thanks John Larsen.

[@michelecraig9658]

This is so fascinating. I wonder if anyone has explored the Anabaptist underpinnings of the book of Mormon. There are many shared beliefs between nineteenth century Anabaptist beliefs as they evolved in the US in New York and this theology from the Book of Mormon. Many of my ancestors who followed Joseph Smith to Nauvoo were Anabaptist.

[@jonipitcher7185]

When I studied Job it became a shelf item. It basically says that God double dog dared the devil to distroy Job's life. They seemed friends in cahoots with each other. Thanks for this.

[@Casey-hz1sn]

It’s nice to see Catholicism recognized as a high demand religion, the more I think about my upbringing the more similarities I have found to the cults and high demand organizations I’ve been following for years now.

[@Zeett09]

I feel the reverse. I was Catholic for the first 30 years of my life. It was not high demand for me or my family. They had zero worthiness interviews. Confession was optional. Taking the sacrament was optional. You could attend mass on Saturday or Sunday at whichever parish you wanted. Donations were optional. Volunteering was optional. No “callings”. Zero pressure to become a priest or nun. No shaming. No dress codes. No food or drink restrictions. Not one sermon or testimony from anybody proclaiming “we are the one true church”. It was pretty chill. I’m not questioning your experience. I just didn’t find any high demands in my Catholic experience.

[@stevedorecharley2849]

My mom grew up in pre Vatican 2 Catholicism, and it was definitely traumatizing with all the threats of sin and hell drilled into her head. My experience was much gentler but still somewhat demanding.

[@cc-hk5ih]

I pretty much have your experience. My parents' time in the Church was quite strict, but bless them they were never ones to push it on us, instead they encouraged us to debate question and find our own way. They were faithful and practised their belief simply. They read and kept up to date with all the changes in the Church. I had to admire how they read and kept up to date with all things Catholic and weren't afraid to speak out or critize the hierarchy. It was a beautiful over 60-year partnership, which while ground in faith was a true loving equal relationship. They welcomed non catholics to the family 2nd partners and valued people for who they were, not what religion they were. Many religions seem to have common denominators of being overdominant in people's lives of overriding the fine line between Church and state and sadly hiding abuse behind their doors. We cannot deny that and watching Mormon Stories surely has shown us that. Being free to have your own mind and being free to investigate and educate yourself is truly a gift. Whether you chose religion should be a free choice not something showed down your throat with the fear of eternal domination. Thank you Morman Stories for making me question think and confirming that keeping it simple and personal is my way forward. ps. The only thing I knew about Mormons before this was that the Osmonds were of that faith. I've certainly been educated since I got hooked on this channel.!! CC ireland

[@Foghorn-tr1je]

@@Zeett09clearly you didn’t attend a Catholic School like my Mom.

[@cc-hk5ih]

@Foghorn-tr1je Yes I did and saw all the worst and best of nuns and priests in my education.

[@disturbingthepiece2788]

Passing the baton... ❓ How do we stay sane in this insane world???

[@harlanlang6556]

Laughing helps! Comics show the humor in insane situations and we can find it.

[@user-mx5ee7hk6u]

Every ‘False Religion’ plays on your Emotion, not your Intelligence!

[@madisonrose1576]

💔 love you John Larson.

[@Colesko]

It is so healthy to move on! At some point we all need to stop talking and thinking about this stuff. That is the final stage of deconstruction.

[@letahamilton]

Thank you John Larsen AND John Dehlin!

[@townsendv58]

Good luck with farm John.

[@lorinapetranova2607]

The testimonials of exmo's is ripping my Heart n huge tears cos it's all I have thought as a Never Mo. Many many blessings of Courage and inner peace and Love. 😊🦋💙

[@tjmoore2008]

1:13:10 this was such a good closing proposition by John Larsen :)

[@FATMEESTER]

This is one of my top favorite episodes.

[@loraleenunley7979]

John D stick around. We love your podcasts

[@lorinapetranova2607]

Thanks to John Larsen and his reading of the BoM aloud n his Only true interpretation of the BoM I now know exactly why I had nightmares 31 yrs ago when I tried to get past part way through 2Nephi. Alma has such different energy. I won't destroy my BoM but I seriously doubt I ever read 2 Nephi unless there's a nuclear holocaust and I can only find a book of Mormon to get my mind off things and no sarcasm there. Love.. Light ... and many blessings ya'll.

[@natenelson9102]

John has walked through the door at the end of the Good Place 🥲

[@goanna2012]

Thank you guys the best ❤😊

[@mae-qt8hw]

Satan is the main character an prominent theme in temple endowment

[@mahalmousito8079]

Prove it u gawd damit

[@truthseeker3773]

@@mahalmousito8079. Go to new name Noah and check out secret spy camera work during the temple endowment. Of course that has changed up 'with revelation' that they took out the really scary verbiage

[@mylifewithmarmalade4624]

I think we may need a crowd fund to start the first ex Mormon library and resource center. Part academic historical archive, part library, part museum, part public meeting space. Maybe Ms Rebecca Bibliotecca could head up the library?

[@jpoeste]

The evil narcissism in the church...

[@midwestdbs5967]

John is the GOAT 🐐

[@wilsonlee63]

In Mormonism they say the devil can only exist & appears to those who has doubts....

[@harlanlang6556]

Why do you think they say that?

[@shdfx1]

I love the heart of John Larsen!

[@goonfarb6969]

Carah, you are smashing it with that Devils mistress/Valentines/Marti Gras/birthday outfit...love you!