Saucony Kinvara Pro

On paper, this is a shoe of mixed messages. There’s squishy racing foam but there’s also dense every day stuff. There’s a carbon fiber plate, but it’s only 3/4 length. The Saucony Kinvara Pro has a confusing name and mismatched specs, but running in it, it actually makes a whole lot of sense.
0:00 intro
disclosures
specs
what's it like
best for
Why Did They Make This?
What is It Kinvara? or Pro?
So What Is This?
Another Way to Look at It
How to Understand Saucony Shoes
Another Way to Understand Saucony Shoes
disclosures: Saucony provided these shoes for the purpose of review, so I did not have to pay for them. However, nobody is paying me to make this video or to use this shoe. No one will be able to preview any of my footage or my thoughts before this video goes up on KZbin.
Thanks for watching! Leave a comment to let me know you stopped by!
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Also, you do not need to use these links. You can also search for these same items in amazon or on any search engine/shopping site of your choice and buy/research them that way.
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[@darylgranger9484]

Freaking shoes going at $180 now is insane. However, the technology has come a long ways, driving up the price range. I just got the Hoka Mach X at $180, what an amazing shoe.

[@kofuzi]

shoes aren't cheap, but they sure are fun

[@kevinlemanquais2006]

Wait until the newest iteration comes out. I picked up the Triumph in vispro for around 100 when the new one dropped.

[@ramore1000]

@@kofuzithey could be, but manufacturers want increased profits so tech get a super price bump

[@nosashuly]

​@@kevinlemanquais2006way to go

[@nberkel]

@@ramore1000 it's not all profit. Not saying there's no additional money being made, but design and engineering costs money.

[@swenderich]

Alternative Set B: Daily: Triumph 20/21 Tempo: Endorphin Speed 3 Race: Endorphin Pro 3

[@3Dovetails]

That's a good one.

[@duydnguyenn]

I agree, the Triumph to me is very close to Endorphin line

[@timsmith7816]

100% Agree.

[@run-are]

100% Agree

[@korpharm]

This ⬆️ 💯

[@RunningTrueNorth]

Recovery/Daily = Triumph 21 Daily/Speed = Endo Speed Speed/Racing = Endo Pro To me that’s the Saucony lineup decoded 😂 Awesome review as always Ko!

[@davidosolo]

I think you nailed it! I would use the Triumphs also for the regular long runs and the Endo Speeds for those long runs that have faster parts in it.

[@zz3410]

More discussion like you did at the end, please. We can always see specs in writing. I actually liked the squishy shift 1. That's why I enjoy the novablasts for easy/long runs.

[@maraballerina]

This is the best discussion thus far about this shoe. I’ve put two runs in this shoe so far and am loving it.

[@kofuzi]

glad to hear you're enjoying it!

[@Jimmy_Maxwell]

Really appreciate the shoe grouping advice at the end! Big Saucony fan and was looking forward to see where this shoe would fit in.

[@michaelcaricoo]

Ko said we were going into the weeds in this and he did not lie. I am absolutely here for it, great video

[@kofuzi]

thanks for coming along for the ride!

[@El_myth]

Michael, ive been a saucony nerd and Kofuzi watcher for a long long time. This is the most excellent shoe rotation breakdown video I’ve ever watched. I used the freedom 2 and 3 for track and field mid-distance while in college and could never understand why it didnt gain more of a following. Still use them for kicking around 6 years later and the midsole feels like it did when new! (The upper has been disintegrating, though). Fantastic out-of-the-box problem solving on this vid, made for a really fun watch!

[@kofuzi]

Thanks for the feedback!

[@run-are]

The Triumph 20/21 already has an Endorphin feel to it, it is a really energetic and springy daily trainer.... It would slot nicely in with the Speed and Pro.

[@SparkesIsRunning]

I'm adopting the Shift family. This video wins YT today! so much love and admiration for you Mr K

[@kofuzi]

thanks!

[@Cellularsurfer]

Great review and Video. I have been using the Kinvara Pro for long runs and faster daily training.I Will probably run Boston again next year in the Saucony Endorphin Elite as it worked out really well for me in the rain. I am also really excited to see what Asics comes out with next in their Metaspeed Sky line.

[@chongrejo10]

Amazing. I noticed other videos being confused at what the Kinvara Pro really was and what was Saucony doing, but you did exactly what they should have done: since you all get and try these shoes, find where the Kinvara Pro could fit in the lineup. You provided 3 strategies based on your perception which were almost identical to what I thought Saucony was doing (except for the Freedom, completely forgot about that). Well done Kofuzi, see you at the Tokyo Marathon in 2024 if you're planning to run it!

[@kofuzi]

Thanks for the feedback!

[@jameskay4207]

This was much better than other reviews on the Kinvara Pro because you were able to put it in context of the entire lineup while everyone else has obsessed over the name. Comparing it to the Endorphin Elite seems to make sense to me despite not knowing either shoe. Thanks.

[@kofuzi]

Thank you for the feedback

[@ryanmedland2549]

Amen to the end section! Here’s my opinion: Kinvara Pro rename ➡️ endorphin max Sinister rename ➡️ kinvara pro Tempus rename ➡️ endorphin guide So the lineup goes: Kinvara - Eva lightweight daily Kinvara Pro- peba 5k/10k racer. Endorphin lineup- Endorphin Shift - Eva daily Endorphin Max - Eva/peba maximalist long run / tempo Endorphin guide - Eva/peba stable Endorphin speed - peba speed shoe Endorphin pro Endorphin elite 💚 That way would could pick which parts of the endorphin lineup you need. I LOVE Saucony but it seems like they’re all over the place with how they market their shoes, there’s so much overlap and duplication of design requirements. For example - people identified that the speed 1&2 were unstable, so they made V3 more stable, made the Tempus and now the kinvara pro.

[@kofuzi]

i think it's ok that there's a lot of overlap between shoes. it's something i talked about in the Adios 8 review. more runners in the marketplace means smaller and smaller subsets of preferences can be addressed. this, overall, is a very good thing for runners, as it makes it more likely that we will be able to find shoe(s) that feel like they were made specifically just for us. but with the increase in number of product offerings, brands need to be able to very specifically explain the similarities and differences between the shoes. i feel like there was a prior industry-wide trend of keeping product copy very vague

[@ryanmedland2549]

@@kofuzi but I like neat and tidy boxes 😂 no, I completely get what you’re saying. It’s a failure of marketing or like you suggested, maybe a deliberate strategy of making it vague.

[@AstrumG2V]

I would posit that each shoe still has a neat box, but because those boxes are getting smaller and smaller, it's getting harder to find the right box for you

[@franklehouillier8865]

This Kofuzi review gets a B+. Despite the really complicated analysis, there was no puddle splashes, animals or racing footage and it definitely loses some points for those awful Tracksmith shorts.

[@kofuzi]

tough but fair

[@VinceHill]

Great review! I like how you paired them up with other Saucony shoes. As a runner, with a few pair of Kinvara shoes, and love the Speed 2 and 3 for marathon training, as well as the Pro 3 for marathons, I liked the ideas you tossed out there. I have the Shift 3, and like it for slow training days. I started out with the older versions of the Freedom, not enjoying the newer versions. Anyways, great review!

[@kofuzi]

thanks for watching!

[@shaec.3581]

This has been so helpful for trying to understand the lineup. Also I agree with you on the freedom. It was originally marketed as a cushier springier kinvara and when the redid it with the pebax it was awesome. It was so versatile and i was so saddened to see what the did with it recently. Especially since the kinvara is also not the low stack shoe it once was. And you cannot get the sinister in Canada so whats a canadian girl to do. Sigh...

[@kalvin.]

Love the discussion at the end. Saucony makes such great shoes up and down their range, but the naming and grouping has been a bit of a mess. The naming confusion can also apply to ASICS as well, where they have 2 Metaspeeds, and the Magic speed is the budget takedown model of that, and there’s an even cheaper but more superlatively named Hyper Speed below that. Not to mention they have their cloud-naming convention on some shoes but not others like Dynablast Novablast Superblast

[@kofuzi]

all the brands have this problem. I feel like there's enough of a mess to have a ranty section at the end of all my videos for a while.

[@laurainthehaute918]

I’d watch a ranty section. Ranty plus nerdy is like a KoPro? (Speaking of naming).

[@Lireoec]

It's nice that Ko is staying diplomatic and trying to help clear up the naming mess that Saucony seems to have gotten itself into. This is what happens when the marketing department is not aligned well enough with their design department. I have a suspicion a lot of this could have been resolved by having clear design directionality combined with market messaging. All that being said, this does risk turning off the average runner looking to get into new shoes and it's a true loss for Saucony since the Endorphin Pro was such an easy shoe to like. I also don't like the normalisation of carbon plates on trainers though but that's a whole different can of worms.

[@jackkasperski2912]

Thank you for including the Sinister!

[@5colorcowboy]

Great thoughts on a great Saucony running lineup.

[@Karen.Runs.26.2.]

For option 2-could do Tempus as your daily, endorphin speed 3 for tempo, pros for race day. I haven’t gotten my race day shoe yet but like rotating Tempus/speeds.

[@jkhoudini]

Great breakdown, really appreciate it. Should’ve just been the shift pro, but I guess associating it with the more budget shift wouldn’t have fit the $170 price point.

[@mortenfogh7228]

I agree with the Freedom. I had v2, v3 and now have the v5. It's quite cushioned and feels soft on the landing, but the Powerun PB is bouncy enough that it can go fast.

[@BrianRuns3090]

Outstanding review, as always. In the shoe comparisons near the end and talking about stability shoes, I was surprised you didn’t mention anything about the Saucony Tempus. As a flat footed, over pronator, I’ve been using that since its release last year and it’s been great for speed work and daily training up to 10 mile runs. I’ve been interested to find a race day shoe with stability components. Currently using the Metaspeed sky plus and though my ankles don’t agree with the shoe, it’s been very fast. Sounds like the Kinvara Pro might be a possible solution though a bit on the heavy side.

[@kofuzi]

Honestly, I forgot about the Tempus. I generally don’t pay much attention to stability shoes, especially ones of that level of stability

[@seanmarshall5569]

Love your final notes. As a huge fan of v1-3, Saucony lost its way w the Freedom. Started off a fantastic shoe w such potential for a place in the lineup, but obviously was tabled. Hope they take your advice

[@Gluttonforpeace]

Content so good, they can't even pay you for it. Very nice work on this one.

[@kofuzi]

thank you 🙏

[@wayne9675]

Kofuzi, I love your content and the way you talk about each shoe model. Thanks to you, I brought nb rebel v3 which turned out to be the best shoe I've ever had on my feet. Now, I want to buy the winter goretex shoe. I'd love to hear your opinion on such topic. Keep the work going)

[@kofuzi]

Peg trail 4 goretex

[@royamin8550]

Congrats n kudos on ur vlog n reviews , my personal choice : daily = triumph 20 speed = endorphin speed 3, race= endorphin pro 3 , endorphin elite here in the philippines 👍❤

[@francescabuscicchio3704]

I love the endorphin line! I started with endorphin speed and pro 2 (2 pairs of each), and now with the speed and pro 3. I’ve just got some problem with the pro 3 in the longer distance races I feel a pain in the middle food (probably due to the cut in the midsole). Definitely I would have a speed shoe option between the endorphin speed and the pro! 🙌🏻

[@Zoomed_Out_Tahova]

Hey Kofuzi, I know you compared this to the endo Speed 3 and the Shift, I havent ran in those but Ik that I *loved* the endo Speed 1, how would you compare this to the OG Speed?

[@CanaryWorfRuns]

As a high arched overprenator who needs a fair bit of stability in their shoes, I can assure you the saucony endorphin elite, which I got to run in at a 10k race recently, are a fantastic option for people who need a stability shoe. Amazing race day trainers in which i felt utterly supported all the way to a PB!

[@kofuzi]

Great to know that. Thanks!

[@yohankusuma5510]

That is one sexy looking shoe ❤ the rubberless outsole reminds me of hoka mach 5 Btw digging the new format mike! I don't have any saucony shoes in my rotation yet to comment on the running rotation options, but this kinvara pro might be my 1st saucony

[@kofuzi]

thanks for watching!

[@kevinlemanquais2006]

The end of this seemed like a good time for Saucony to plug a new shoe called the Kofozi Freedom as a daily trainer.

[@kofuzi]

hahaha!

[@gtromble]

Watching the video of your running and footstrikes in the KV Pro and the Speed 3 the latter is allowing a lot more pronation when you land than the KV Pro.

[@jungtao]

Wow Mike! That is what I call analysis! Bam! Saucony, u need Mike !!!

[@kalvin.]

Publishing mid livestream, a multitasking phenom

[@kofuzi]

scheduling is a wonderful thing

[@jamesaddison2428]

I think the should've called it the Kinvara Endorphin Speed Pro for added confusion.

[@michite7435]

Lol 😂

[@keitheager6023]

The kendorphin spro

[@hazlanhalim3223]

Spot on Ko! Endorphin Speed 3 is so confusing! I mean as a daily trainer, it is way too good and just as good for speed work. Love the Endorphin line, completely agree that Saucony should come out with something as daily trainer for the Endorphin line but it's gonna be hard to not think of Speed 3 as a daily trainer afterward I believe with the way it performs. 😂

[@kofuzi]

although the two shoes are very different, the dual-uses of the shoes reminds me a lot of the way people used to talk about the Peg Turbo and Turbo 2. And there were rumors (that I find highly unlikely, but I'll repeat them here anyway) that Nike killed off that shoe because people were buying just that one shoe instead of two separate daily trainers and speed day shoes.

[@Jimmy_Maxwell]

​​@@kofuziI'd believe it!!

[@kaishunider4110]

I’ve been waiting for this!!!!!!

[@kofuzi]

hope you enjoy!

[@kaishunider4110]

@@kofuzi I will. Thank you :)

[@usertutubo06]

In this video, Professor Kofuzi discusses the unexpected design of the new Kinvara Pro and helps you visualize where each 2023 Saucony shoe fits in different rotation setup groups. 🤓

[@muscfiorentina]

It train in the shift (8 pairs now )and race in the elite. But now I might give the Kinvara pro a try. Thanks for the review.

[@kofuzi]

i really think you'll like it as a way to take some of the mileage and wear and tear off your Elites

[@AnthonyZafiris]

Daily/long run - triumph 20/21 Speed/Daily - speed 3 Race - endorphin elite Love Saucony…. Only non Saucony shoe in my rotation is the Hoka speedgoat 5 for trails.

[@macau.friend]

I don’t own any Saucony shoes, but I still enjoy this brief history of their line up

[@kofuzi]

Thanks Ivan!

[@duydnguyenn]

I hope they won't mess up the Endorphin line. It has been great value and easy for newbie to understand. If anything they need to rework the Shift because not many people want to use it as daily/easy shoes

[@kofuzi]

That one has always stuck out a bit funny to me

[@zb5715]

No one does reviews better than Kofuzi!

[@kofuzi]

Thank you

[@JDelta87]

The discussion at the end about naming and categorization of shoes can go to all the brands honestly. It would nice if brands would simplify categories and intended use cases for their products.

[@kofuzi]

I think brands are intentionally ambiguous with product descriptions so as to avoid discouraging any runner from buying a shoe

[@notall1196]

I have used the speed 3 for my daily for some time but this Triumph 20 and now 21 could slide into that daily trainer role for the endorphin series.

[@laurainthehaute918]

I agree. And I like taking a break from plates in my daily trainers for awhile. Can easily change shoes for a speed session or track workout.

[@TheJiveProject]

Im a heavy runner (5’9” 190, started running again at 230 6 mos ago). Flat/widefeet/overpronate. Sprint/Hurdle background and coach HS sprints/hurdles/jumps. I am able to run forefoot, midfoot and heel strike with no issues. My comfortable pace is 9:30-11:00. I own 4 pairs of Shift 3s, a pair of Speed 3s and a pair of Pro 3s. I have just over 40k in the Kinvara Pros. For a guy like me they are “almost” perfect. If the upper was a tad bit more breathable, I’d buy every pair I could get my hands on. I haven’t got my hands on the Elite yet but to me this might be the “Stability Super Shoe”

[@kofuzi]

Glad to hear it’s working for you. You might be the ideal runner for this shoe

[@WarneysWorld]

As a heavier (91kg) forefoot striker, 155 cadence, the kinvara pro is a godsend for me. Speed threes are flattened after a few miles but there is no flattening this. The endorphin elite = perfect for race day. They feel very related.

[@Thepianoman77]

In the endorphin line, I use the triumph as the daily trainer. Idk if that’s the right choice for me, but it’s been working out for me so far. Been thinking of getting a new set of 3 pairs of shoes for a new rotation. Thinking of getting the next Endorphin speed, a new daily trainer, and the Endorphin pro for races. Maybe a 4th pair for max cushion with the new Triumph 21… but I haven’t committed to it yet.

[@kofuzi]

That makes sense

[@roostermiller]

Saucony has the tempus as a daily support shoe and the kinvara pro as race and tempo if you're after support. You could say the kinvara 14 as daily to marathon and sinister as speed day, 5km, 10km if your foot strength is there. The kinvara pro is the wrong name as it should have been a shift upgrade and the current saucony shift drops down to the saucony axon budget range. Saucony really has a versatile range. If you think of it as a budget range, a mid range and an aspirational range in price you start to include the triumph, ride etc.

[@HomeVideoHub]

I bailed on Saucony last year and I'm waiting for a complete overhaul of their designs. Used to be a huge fan and still am I just decided to sit this round out. Asic are currently filling the void.

[@ALRUMIE]

Great Review, being waiting 👍👍👍👍👍

[@rcsparks07]

The Freedom 1-3 were so fun to run in. Was bummed when they became lifestyle/cross-training shoes. Hoping that someone at Saucony is listening to this suggestion.

[@kofuzi]

I regret not trying the Freedom when it switched to all PWRRUN PB

[@bcockton]

The Freedom 3 was a great shoe. It made some sense in the 4, but the upper was too built up.

[@daves6620]

I still have Freedom 3 (2135 km) on shoe rotation, and a new pair on shelf, but I am running more daily mileage in Novablasts and Velocities, don't enjoy as much as years ago in Freedoms. They were great shoes, they are still decent shoes, but they aren't the best daily trainer nowadays

[@cameronthaijohnson]

I think of the Kinvara Pro more as a more daily version of the Speed or a better version of the Shift and what the shift should be basically. The daily high cushion trainer options would be that or the Triumph.

[@cameronthaijohnson]

@@freehypes I often feel like the with brands, but I feel like Saucony is doing a really good job with a broad range of options right now where I am liking it. Too many choices is not always great but I do think Saucony is doing a great job across lots of different models. This one is their supermax over 40mm shoe though, so that does sort of give it a different slot.

[@troyvankampen9026]

Not sure on this shoe, I have put close to 800km in the endorphin speed from easy days to speed runs and it still has plenty of life left in it. The kinvara pro is more expensive, heavier and has no outsole so possibly won’t get the same mileage as the speed??

[@MagerialPage]

I also don't like too much stability. What shoes would you recommend?

[@Alex-qr3mx]

How do we feel about the lack of outsole on such a high stack daily trainer? Unlike lower stack shoes with the eva outsoles, I think for anyone who is not going to land neutral in it once it’s starts to wear unevenly that will just compound and become worse because of the stack height. And including the price, I think omitting some form of a rubber outsole for protection will be a let down and cause some issues for a lot of people. Especially that shift/stability oriented crowd.

[@kofuzi]

I’m not worried. Or in other words, I am exactly as concerned as I am about the regular Kinvara, which also has had no rubber on the outsole for several years

[@JonPhillipssea206]

I was surprised you didn’t mention the Triumph in one of the Saucony sets for the daily trainer option. I feel like that shoe could be paired with the Speed and Pro. Overlooked or do you have reasons? I enjoyed the Triumph 20 and the power run plus midsole. That shoe also worked at a variety of paces though it was my go-to daily shoe and long, slow run choice.

[@kofuzi]

Triumph is great as is. No notes. fits in anywhere.

[@Lane1Running]

Great video Ko, kind of a random question but how long is the GoPro stick you use to film?

[@kofuzi]

don't know. long enough to get the shot comfortably while running

[@elliotendures]

REALLY interested in this one, but wondering how I would use it vs. the Superblast. Maybe Kinvara for faster, Superblast for longer and slower?

[@kofuzi]

I would use them similarly

[@Trwoodward]

My pitch would be a stability trio: Shift for Daily, Tempus as the lighter speed work shoe with the mix of pwrrun and pwrrun pb, and kinvara pro as the race day shoe with more foam and that 3/4 length plate

[@kofuzi]

I like that

[@tgarcia615]

Nice one I like it check time in the Philippines🇵🇭 7:15 am. Good Morning idol Kafuzi..

[@kofuzi]

thanks for watching!

[@cebukid70]

11:15 - thanks Ko for the "warning" that this Kinvara Pro has absolutely nothing in common with regular Kinvara... I'm a huge fan of Kinvara regular

[@itsahardmuttlife9263]

Fantastic shoe! There is already a rumor that it will replace the shift.

[@kofuzi]

that would make sense to me

[@blaineblasdell5151]

Relatively new getting back into running. Both older and heavier. According to my running store I need a stability shoe. Ran my first 5k in the Endorphin Shift. Then started building out m ly rotation. DT Endorphin Shift 3, Puma Forever Nitro. Speed/workout: Saucony Tempus/Puma Deviate N2. Going to try the Kinvaro Pro as possible my race day in this lineup. Thoughts?

[@kofuzi]

It makes sense to me if you like the shift and Tempus

[@almostaverageroger]

Will this be a good marathon day shoe for over pronators?

[@i.p2088]

The Saucony daily trainer is the Ride 16 and if you need more plush Triumph 21.

[@kofuzi]

It’s a daily trainer for some people. Feels kind of like a relic that peaked at version 10

[@maxvanlogologomax6971]

Kofuzi, instead of the re-hashed Freedom, how about the already existing Tempus? It has really grown on me, and I always felt that the Tempus should have been what the Shift was, namely the daily unplated companion shoe to the Speed 3 and the Pro 3. It seems to be a greatly underappreciated shoe, but it has become my go-to unplated daily trainer. Very lightweight, very durable, and definitely capable of picking up the pace.

[@kofuzi]

that would also be much more clear than calling it Kinvara Pro

[@therungeek]

yeah, I am still confused, shall I take Kinvara PRo or stick to Speed 3. I love the S3 for everything

[@kofuzi]

Then probably speed 3

[@irfantaufiq2755]

I wonder will they ever give an update to Tempus?

[@fuksy]

I really miss the freedom of running in the Freedoms... The 3rd version was my all time favorite and they destroyed the shoe since then

[@seemanthr]

HI @kofuzi which shoes are better Endorphin shift 3 or Endorphin speed 3 pro. I'm not a runner i used to walk and run around 10 km daily. please can you recommend

[@kofuzi]

Of the shoes you mentioned, I would look at the Endorphin Shift for what you describe

[@seemanthr]

@@kofuzi Thanks a lot 😀

[@seemanthr]

@@kofuzi i will run on mud track is endorphin shift 3 will be better or please can you suggest any other shoes

[@Phampham453]

What's your opinion on varying the heel drop of shoes you run in to train different muscles of your legs and not get too used to only 1 drop?

[@kofuzi]

even if all of your shoes are 1mm drop or zero drop, I think you'll be fine as long as all of your running isn't on completely level surface. but I generally think variety is nice

[@karls8989]

have you tried the boston 12 yet? how would you compare in terms of picking up the pace?

[@kofuzi]

have not tried the Boston 12

[@Bruh168]

Thanks for the overview of the Saucony lineup! It's honestly really confusing what they're trying to do and what each shoe accomplishes. I used to own a pair of Speed 2s and I mostly used them as a versatile daily trainer that could also do speed workouts. I now own a pair of Freedom 5s and I find them a bit stiff, but I tried them because they were on steep discount and I wanted a lower-to-the-ground option than a lot of what's out there now. I'm wondering if it would be helpful for everyone if you teamed up with some shoe reviewers and made a website with webs/maps for each brand's shoes to help show new runners what shoes from each brand's line-ups are made for/best for and how they connect. I think it would be really helpful because you have acquired a lot of knowledge over the years of what each line of shoes does in general, as well as knowing specific pros and cons of each model/version

[@kofuzi]

I think once people start to make charts, it gets overly complex. And the more objective this kind of index gets, the more that subjectivity permeates. It’s a weird phenomenon

[@Bruh168]

@@kofuzi Fair point. I guess the subjectiveness of the use cases for each shoe is always going to exist. It'd probably be hard to find a general consensus.

[@aristodiga82]

I don't think Saucony marketed the endorphin shift as a stability shoe. It is stable, yes, but more like a stable neutral shoe. By the way, where would you put the Tempus then? The Tempus was actually marketed as a versatile moderate stability shoe that you can use for both daily training up to races. Do they kill the Tempus lineup, will we see a Tempus 2, or will it be just as simple as do you want a plated option or a non-plated one? I only tried the Tempus on a store, because I don't wear stability shoes, but I do feel they are light enough for races and rigid enough to not needing a plate. For the Endorphin B group that you mentioned at the end... well, they always have their more traditional shoes like the Ride 16 if you need a daily trainer for that group, or the Triumph. It is interesting how saucony released a shoe that then makes all reviewers thinking how to justify its existence. They make it so complicated when they already have so many options. In the end, I think the Kinvara Pro is only Saucony's attempt to target runners who want a >40mm stack height shoe. Competing with the likes of asics novablast or the prime X. Probably it is as simple as that, a market-driven shoe.

[@kofuzi]

i agree Saucony didn't market the Shift as a stability shoe. it doesn't mean it wasn't one. Saucony used to proudly mention on its website that a lot of it's neutral shoes have a "hint of stability," so when Saucony markets a shoe as moderate stability (and that the Shift is a neutral shoe), then I anticipate it's basically going to feel like running in an orthopaedic boot to me. It seems like the Tempus was well-received in the stability crowd, so I anticipate that it will continue. I have no knowledge one way or the other from Saucony, and I don't pay a lot of attention to stability shoes or stability shoe news/rumors.

[@danielmcdonald9917]

So can you use the kivaro like an everyday use or is it bad for the joints if used everyday?

[@kofuzi]

I think it can be used as a daily trainer

[@owenlewis9258]

The price is the Pro bit 😂

[@monkeyslaye]

I got it 25% off to try on a half marathon in 3 weeks.. Originally $240 I got it for $180, lol.

[@paulthethi1341]

Group A for true neutral runners who are possibly lighter in body weight? : Endorphin Pro 3, Endorphin Speed, Endorphine Freedom Plus (A max stack shoe like an Adidas Prime Strung) Group B for slight stability runners who are possibly heavier in body weight? : Endorphin Elite, Kinvara Pro (renamed Endorphin Shift Pro), Endorphin Shift Plus (A max stack shoe 45mm+ with Tempus stability)

[@frodelarsen7105]

@kofuzi, can it be so simple that Saucony needed to reply to the Asics Superblast, but didn't really have a plan what to call it?

[@kofuzi]

Perhaps, but that doesn’t answer any of my questions about the name

[@johnconnor3329]

Current rotation: Daily trainer: Tempus Speed: Endorphin Speed 3 Race: Endorphin Pro I am on my second pair of each the same shoes. The Tempus is the weak link that I would entertain swapping at this point.

[@elzuzo]

I´m not seeing the point of a plated daily trainer yet. Actually I have been reading about the potential harm can do. I'm using plated shoes just for speed work (Endorphin speed 3) and racing (Adidas adios por 3) and I'm very satisfied with the results. Greetings from Mexico City.

[@kofuzi]

i think it is valuable to conduct research on the subject. but for the most part, i think people who write in a non-research context about plated daily trainers are fear-mongering (that is a stronger word than I think is merited, but i don't know a better word). people say carbon is bad for you, but it's not radioactive. we have to think about what it's doing; what is the effect. if we can't universally say that all carbon plates feel the same in every shoe, or if we can't say that all carbon plates behave the same way in every shoe, i don't see how we can extrapolate generalizations about whether carbon is good or bad in daily trainers (particularly when we spent decades with other stabilizing elements in shoes like torsion rods, trustic plates, wave plates, speed boards, rock plates, etc)

[@michaellopour7409]

Saucony’s rationale for the naming convention makes sense (see most recent Doctors of Running episode) - the Kinvara is the democratized version of the minimalist shoe and the Kinvara Pro is the democratized version of a plated racer. But by creating “lines” of shoes with similar names they create the confusion they should be attempting to avoid. I’m more worried this might signal the end of the Kinvara itself in a year or so. Freedom wouldn’t really have any rocker/speed roll which is why I don’t think your lineup meshes with what Saucony is trying to do… however I think avoiding daily miles in aggressively rockered shoes is probably smart for foot/leg/gait strengthening and would benefit most people. Would be interested in your thoughts on that at some point!

[@kofuzi]

Someone else in these comments summarized the Doctors of Running discussion as roughly, “plate = pro” Doctors of Running commented on my KZbin Short (or maybe IG reel) about this shoe that they had a discussion with Saucony. I replied that I looked forward to hearing the explanation after I completed this review. I avoid other people’s reviews while I am in the review process myself.

[@michaellopour7409]

@@kofuzi of course… it was weird on Saucony’s part not to explain this to those getting the shoe, so that half of every video on the shoe isn’t about why the name makes no sense. I knew this would happen when I saw the preview - 10 oz, 8mm drop, plate? Kinvara?!?

[@iamElon]

Should I buy Adidas adizero SL for marathon ,its for 50 bucks , I don't have big budget for other shoes, will it work for me ,i bought SL for my training as well

[@kofuzi]

It’s not going to be incredibly different than the SL, so if budget is a large consideration, I might look at something that is more different than what you already have

[@iamElon]

@@kofuzi you know , whenever I asked any questions on the channel you always replied, Thank you for your support man, God bless you

[@pastorbeaucoffman2214]

What about the Triumph??? I use the Triumph 19 as a daily trainer (got an extra pair because I don't like the 20), Endorphin Speed 2 as my tempo/intravel trainer, and the Endorphin Pro as a race shoe.

[@vlad_olenich]

wow, what exactly don't you like in 20s?

[@kofuzi]

Triumph is perfect as is. No notes.

[@pastorbeaucoffman2214]

@@vlad_olenich too much stack height. I don't know why they had to mess with a good thing.

[@vlad_olenich]

@@pastorbeaucoffman2214 sad to here that. I've just purchased and already run couple time - truly enjoy the cushion on slow pace and bounce when I want to add some speed.

[@jollyroger1009]

Fordy Runs is doing a few videos on this shoe at the moment along the speedier stability line.

[@kofuzi]

Great minds think alike

[@arielr418]

What about the Triumph 20/21 in that endorphin set B as the daily?

[@kofuzi]

Triumph is fine exactly as it is. It’s a cushioned daily or a light max cushion. It can fit in any of these rotations.

[@arielr418]

@@kofuzi Thanks! Was mostly curious what led your to recommendation of the freedom over the triumph? Just that the triumph is more cushioned vs the freedom is a more well-rounded daily?

[@runnin3216]

I've been told the Kinvara Pro is replacing the Shift. Not sure who thought that was a good idea. I don't want a plate in my daily trainer and I'm certainly not paying an extra $40 for it.

[@jjchang9874]

Freedom 1 is still the best saucony shoe for me Next is speed line

[@Bassgesicht]

How does it compare to the Hoka Mach 5? Similar purpose, similar outsole concept

[@kofuzi]

I don’t really consider these shoes to have a similar purpose. I think the Mach X may match up better.

[@pisderata]

the problem is that it has nothing to do with og Kinvara other than not having outsole. For me less pwrun foam and no plate could had a lot of sense as a takedown version of Endorphin speed. And I would put lower drop because is kinda their more 'natural' line

[@77acacosta]

Do these contribute to supination?

[@MatchaBarnes]

I'm a simple man. I see a Kofuzi video. I like a Kofuzi video.

[@kofuzi]

thanks Matcha!

[@MatchaBarnes]

Loved the talk at the end. It would be very helpful if you had a video that broke down 5 big brands and what each of their models are in the "daily trainer" "speed shoe" "race shoe" and "recovery Shoe". Couldn' even make like a chart / graph

[@AstrumG2V]

Kinvara Pro kinda sounds like the Boston 10, but then executed well. Nothing like the original, but still a very good shoe.

[@EditHandIe]

Hi kofuzi do you use any creams for running for like muscle pains ?

[@kofuzi]

no

[@EditHandIe]

@@kofuzi thanks

[@kuriosites]

It seems like almost every shoe coming out is a "supertrainer" with a plate or rods. I am wondering if there are any downsides to that if people are adopting them as their go-to daily trainers. I don't have the answers, just the questions.

[@CuseRnr]

I really think they should have made the Kinvara Pro the Endo Shift. The Shift has always been a struggle for me. The addition of a layer of PB and 3/4 plate would make the Shift worthy of the Endorphin name. Isn't there a Triumph Pro coming?

[@kofuzi]

there was a Triumph Plus that was supposed to be unveiled at TRE last December, but as far as I know, the project has been scrapped (and not just delayed)

[@jimburgasser6571]

Hey Ko, how about mixing the Tempus into one of those line ups?

[@kofuzi]

I think if you need heavy stability, then yes. I tend to avoid stability shoes, so I've not tested the Temps