The Rust vs C Linux Divide.. Another Rust Maintainer Steps Down.

Linus the creator of Linux has to step in about the latest Rust vs C Linux Drama. Leading to the step down of another Rust for Linux Maintainer who is leading dev on the Asahi Linux.
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#linux #tech #pc

[@mikhailevtushenko1324]

1) I don't think that what Hector said on social media violated the CoC in any way. 2) Linus put the hammer down on the dialog, but in the end he did not say anything about the actual topic of the discussion which remains open.

[@kexec.]

No, it violated the Code of Conduct from the perspective of the open-source world, just like how FDO banned the lead developer of Hyprland for his stupid message on Discord.

[@ernestoditerribile]

@@kexec. It wasn't a stupid message. Just stupid crybabies, that can't handle the truth.

[@necromaster998]

Can we all agree the CoCs have ruined FOSS and should he done away with

[@mikhailevtushenko1324]

@@necromaster998 CoC's have to exist to govern interactions in large communities, especially the kernel. The main thing is that they have to be clear and to be enforced equally. In this case, the good ol boys club is deciding what is acceptable/professional.

[@JodyBruchon]

Codes of conduct have no place in software projects. I can't wait for Linux to be surpassed by something not infested with leftist authoritarian weirdos.

[@writeonlycode]

Am I the only one who finds the whole discussion disappointing? The thread starts about a clear technical problem. Christopher's only argument seems to be: I don't like multi-language codebases. But that ship has already sailed? Linux's kernel already is a multi-language codebase! Then Linus misses the opportunity to offer an authoritative answer about what to do in these cases (duplicate the abstraction in each driver? put it in the kernel/dma?) and engages in more drama instead? What the hell?

[@essamal-mansouri2689]

I think Linus helped kinda end the drama, but also it is clear he is avoiding giving an authoritative answer and wants them to come to him with an agreed upon proposal. In my opinion his response is fine. I'm with you that the rest of the conversation was a bit too much drama for me

[@essamal-mansouri2689]

Also I don't think the multi language ship has sailed when it comes to core subsystems. One of the comments is about how Linus is enforcing that the rust build must not be failing meaning that patches in the core subsystems are now blocked by breaks in the rust build. That's different than other components where they're more downstream and wouldn't be the responsibility of the core team.

[@00wheelie00]

I completely understand Christoph. He is a very experienced C developer that is now forced to deal with a multilingual codebase with a second language he knows a lot less than C. For him there is no benefit to Rust, just more work and more issues. Just build your Rust on top of C and maintain your own shim. Allowing a mixed codebase is going to go down as the worst mistake in the Linux kernel so far.

[@writeonlycode]

@@essamal-mansouri2689 In a way. The end could have been: let's do things this way. Instead, it ended with another contributor leaving. It seems silly...

[@writeonlycode]

@@essamal-mansouri2689 About the multi language issue... These seems the kinds of issues you have to deal with in a multi language codebase... I'm not really saying that Rust will definitely be everywhere, but it's in some parts of the codebase, so it's something the contributors have to deal with. I'm not saying that there is no point in insisting in things like: maybe it's not a good idea to use Rust here. But Christopher's position seems to be like: I'll resist any attempt to use any Rust anywhere. Or at least this is the "vibe" I was getting. He was pretty much like: there's no compromise here? That particular ship seems to have sailed?

[@esra_erimez]

It is my humble opinion that they are *both* right. The messaging here was *terrible*. The Rust developers should have developed a shim to interface with the DMA code, and if there were changes to the DMA code itself, then make those in C.

[@nextlifeonearth]

At some level you're defeating the purpose of using rust if the layer between is only maintained on the surface level. I honestly don't think it's too much to ask, because r4l so far has been incredibly promising. They tend to find shortcomings in some architectural decisions and their means to work around it is initially try them to get it fixed, which is again met with hostility, so they do it themselves using a lower level interface. But then this interface is not kept stable. Then now when they asked for a solution, they're again practically asked to f off again. The more c code is used, the less benefit you're getting from using rust, which was the whole point of using it in the first place.

[@apparition.spectre]

The problem with Rust is 'it lets you DO STUFF!' that C won't even permit as functional unless well & properly written. If you write good code, it's not so much of a problem.. now guess how many people write 'good functional code' in Rust compared to those writing important things like kernel code in C..

[@nullvoid3545]

That is literally exactly what Christoph was protesting. It got cut from this video for some reason but Dave's first response in this thread was recommending they go forward with their plans and let Linus decide if its good because Christoph has no barring on how drivers use the DMA API, only how its implemented. This was never about altering the DMA implementation, but I agree with you that the messaging should have been clearer. Linus even showed up and for some reason chose not to settle the debate, instead he just complained at how much of A mess the lack of messaging has caused as the maintainers take to social media. What A mess, and this video does A terrible job of describing it.

[@karathkasun]

@@nextlifeonearth if this is true R4L needs to fork the kernel.

[@justincase9471]

@@karathkasun Yes it needs to get a fork. Call it Runix and do your Rust conversions over there. If it's any good then people will follow. Personally I don't think it's any good. I think that Rust is a Cancer spreading through the Kernel and it needs to stop before it gets completely unmaintainable.

[@nullvoid3545]

I like the bit from primes take on this where he basically said that this was necessary and no different than whats already been done with rust in the kernel. The rust code to consume the DMA API is already written in existing drivers and as the first comment mentions, has been duplicated among multiple drivers with improvements being made each time. The idea of making A single rust consumer for the DMA API simply means that code isn't duplicated in every driver, which makes it more reasonable for the rust maintainers to maintain it together. Then there is Dave's response to this(skipped past at 10:00) which is basically: this has nothing to do with Christoph, do it anyway and let Linus decide if he likes it. Which makes sense considering the existing role rust plays in the kernel. The C maintainers adjust the C code and then the rust maintainers fix their code to match. Were they asking to put their abstraction in A directory Christoph had control over? Otherwise why wouldn't they just ignore him? He has no control over how drivers choose to consume his API, just control over its changes. Dave even recommended that. Also why would Linus show up just to complain about social media drama? Isn't it clear his lack of clear instructions on how rust can be implemented the issue making this kind of drama so popular among maintainers? Someone even asked him to clarify and he stepped over them to whine about the social drama. Why not just answer the question so we can all move on? I don't get it.

[@fluffypink8730]

I think this is spot on, the core problem to me is that there is no clear leadership on how rust code is to be implemented. If any and all C maintainers can just refuse any rust development, because they don’t want rust in the kernel then what is the point of r4l?

[@lawrencemanning]

The core message from Christoph seemed to be that if changes to the C implementation broke the Rust layer then he’d be bound to fix them, which wasn’t a thing that would fly with him.

[@tiranito3715]

@@lawrencemanning Yep. A lot of people point out that this should not be a problem because the Rust devs already said that they would take the responsibility of adjusting the Rust code themselves so that none of the C devs would have to... but then again, each time this kind of discussion pops up, the Rust devs have done nothing but step down as Kernel maintainers, which further reinforces the fact that indeed, the C devs will have to fix the problems themselves, because clearly the Rust devs won't be there to fix it themselves... kinda feels as if even the Rust devs are aware of the fact that their language produces code that is far harder to maintain long term than C and simply are looking for an excuse to drop out while looking like a victim rather than admitting their bit more than they could chew...

[@nullvoid3545]

TF is with these responses? Can you guys not read or something? Just makin stuff up, hoping its true? IDK, some third explanation that's more reasonable?(I cant think of one.)

[@TricksterRad]

@@tiranito3715 the rust maintainers step down because C devs block them from doing what they need to do, and talk past them, *ignoring* offers to maintain the rust portions of the codebase. Notice that all the stepping down happened *after* this, not before.

[@groff8657]

At this point, just fork the kernel, make it better, and leave each other to their own devices.

[@shadergz]

"make it better" means add Rust code into codebase? i don't think so...

[@robertgosz4281]

If they push so hard, yes. They should fork it and prove it's reliability.

[@groff8657]

@@shadergz No make it better by removing unused legacy cruft from the codebase.

[@adammontgomery7980]

Why would you impose your preferred language on an existing and massive project? AFAIK the GNU coreutils are being rewritten in Rust, fine, great, do the kernel next. I don't understand why they want to insert a drop of "safe Rust" into an ocean of "unsafe C"?

[@Onyx-it8gk]

Rust is controlled mostly by Amazon, Google, and Microsoft through the Rust Foundation. That's no secret. It's openly talked about by professional Rust developers, and even some of the most prominent members of the Rust core development team from Mozilla publicly raised concerns about this previously. Quite telling this fact is always left out of all of these discussions. And sure, I grant that they may have some technical reasons for pushing the R4L project, but make no mistake about it, big tech is not a friend to libre software, and their supposed "interest" in seeing Rust in the Linux kernel doesn't automatically override the Linux user community's interest in the same.

[@stanlee-eq7lu]

Great way for people to jump ship and move to something like OpenBSD.

[@mmstick]

@@Onyx-it8gk Guess who funds Linux? The same organizations! Linux doesn't exist without its corporate sponsors and developers. Most kernel developers are working for one of these companies.

[@DeeaA-o5z]

You say this response from the rust maintainers surprises you but it comes as no surprise to me. Rust is probably a fine language, I know the actual developers of the language are talented and have particular goals in the design of the language, but the users of and community surrounding that language have contributed to Rust's reputation which is why I think ultimately it will remain a niche language. They are very zealous and hostile towards what they perceive to be "unsafe" languages like C. The sentiment that "Rust will take over when C dinosaurs finally go extinct" is one I see over and over again. They live in an echo chamber, because in reality, I see devs putting down languages like javascript, python and C# to pick up C. Not even C++, just plain C. C will outlive Rust, and Linus knows this which is why he took the position he did. Furthermore, the rage quit and drama-filled "I'm Tired" post is hardly a surprise at all.

[@nempk1817]

That what you get for building your language community around fogs and revolutionary mentality. OLD = BAD ~ rust dev.

[@anlumo1]

You have it backwards. Linus started the Rust for Linux project, because he assumes that Rust will outlive C and he worries about finding new contributors to the kernel.

[@RogerValor]

you mean you perceive those people from the rust community, which of course has bad apples, as it is quite vital and gains influence rapidly. also, picking up Zig does not mean picking up C. in the end of your argument you just show, that you are just as religious as you perceive some rust users to be, because you think C is some holy whatsoever sticking to us like mud

[@matgod2004]

If in 5~10 years we get some massive memory security bug on Linux with huge implications, regulators will regulate C out of existence, with not regard to whoever is hurt on the process, in the name of the greater good, they are already giving steps towards it. Either Linux kernel development finds a way to work with two languages and migrate over a safer one willingly or they will be the ones "hurting in the process" (along with everyone else I guess?)

[@OlegLecinsky]

@@RogerValor C is simple. Probably the simplest language of them all, the most close one to the assembly working on any architecture. The simplest things have a tendency to stay around longer then the complex ones. We use them every day. Thousands years later after their invention we still sit on chairs and use tables. We still use forks to eat. Knives have outlived trebuchets, muskets and the Maxim gun. C will outlive Rust. It's not religion, it's just a common logic.

[@benjamindrexler9635]

I love how Christoph explicitly clarified that by "cancer" he was referring to a mixed-language code-base and not the Rust code that had been written, only for Hector to condemn him for calling someone's work cancer. Christoph even praised Rust as one of the best newer languages that exist, just that he didn't want it getting mixed into what was already a very large C code-base.

[@joan38]

You are right the Linux kernel should switch completely to Rust

[@pacman_pol_pl_polska]

Hector sounds like a commie cultist with problems with his own sexuality. Classic case.

[@SylvanFeanturi]

@@joan38 Just fork it

[@dragoscosma84]

​@@joan38What a joke answer

[@ItsThicc]

Bro Chris was being a dick. He was just gaslighting like a simp

[@JodyBruchon]

Good. F Rust. I am tired of people who use Rust as a political spearhead infiltrating and trashing things.

[@jordanjohnson714]

Rust, the language, is amazing. The community .. not so much. Politics is part of that for sure. It’s too bad there has to be such drama. Rust in the kernel is tricky, and I empathize with the maintainers who are weary of the extra complexity a language boundary would present. If I had a very large C code base of my own, I most likely wouldn’t want to add Rust to it. I really like using Rust despite the community/politics. Don’t be too quick to dismiss it. The language itself is good.

[@JodyBruchon]

@@jordanjohnson714 I'm not dismissing the language.

[@_garicas]

@@JodyBruchon Rust is amazing, but the community...

[@s4uss]

@@_garicas and community what? lmao, you've been so easily manipulated into believing the most absurd nonsense.

[@JodyBruchon]

@@s4uss And you've just become the example!

[@babstra55]

him rage-quitting only proves the old C dinosaurs that rust community isn't reliable enough to give more responsibility to. it validates every fear they continue having about rust community.

[@Kerojey]

This rust devs have too much estrogen

[@Efylan]

Hey by all means go ahead and make your own rust OS open source

[@nullvoid3545]

Hey what the heck? Why did you skip greg's first response and the comment he was responding to in the second comment shown at 10:00 ? This is totally out of left field and makes no sense to anyone that hasn't seen this thread elsewhere. Your literally reading A thread to us, how hard can it be?

[@psybertao]

Divas are quitters. Rust divas will reorganise the entire house, put things in places that the owners can't find, then leave for the next drama when they feel unappreciated.

[@jeffy.2007]

22:41 Since the person that refused to find a middle ground and ultimately with their own passive aggressiveness and stubborn nature made another maintainer quit without any repercussion, I don't think anyone learned anything from this incident. This incident probably only solidified some stances of certaint kernel maintainers.

[@VACatholic]

The guy who quit was toxic and Linux is better without him.

[@RanCham727]

​@@VACatholic when you just make shit up

[@VACatholic]

@ I'm tired of pointless comments on KZbin. I'm tired of just absolute drivel that comes out of people. I'm tired of people defending poor behavior. Be better.

[@RanCham727]

@@VACatholic yet here you are making pointless comments on youtube. Don't be a hypocrite

[@VACatholic]

@ Sorry, I was making fun of you.

[@00wheelie00]

I'm not a Linux maintainer, but I am a developer with my main experience in C, C++ and C# (from most to least). I tried Rust and I'll admit that it does solve some issues C and C++ have elegantly. However, for most code Rust just gets in my way and I hate it. If I were a Linux kernel developer and I was maintaining part of a huge C codebase and suddenly people tell me I need to use Rust, unless they pay me for it I would tell them to go pound sand or find another maintainer.

[@justanothercomment416]

My experience is much the same.

[@TricksterRad]

That's the problem though, no one's telling you to use Rust. People are telling you if a rust build breaks you can ignore it, or if you *really* want, fix it yourself, but if you don't, the Rust devs will and that's *fine*.

[@00wheelie00]

@@TricksterRad I would not call that ideal either. Preferable a dev should at least be able to fix code that s/he breaks. Worst case it's needed to test the code. But as I wrote elsewhere, that ship sailed when they allowed rust code into the kernel to begin with. I expect a lot more drama from that going forward. I hope I'm wrong, I daily drive Linux and am not looking to switch.

[@TricksterRad]

​@ sure, you *can* fix it, if you like, but here we have a clear situation where the rust side says: "hey, you don't wanna learn Rust, we get it, that's fine, look, if you make a breaking change, we'll make sure to update the rust code ourselves" and then the C side says: "don't know, don't care, screw off with rust" And then we blame the rust people for getting emotional after spending months dealing with this and being extremely reasonable while the C dev is doing the equivalent of throwing a tantrum.

[@RogerValor]

@@TricksterRad the problem is, that most people are so biased against things they hate, that trying to show that there are sensible people while one guy has the equivalence of a nervous breakdown, will only resort in echo chambers. The stories of "oh I tried it and I hated it" are designed to address like minded people, even if not intended, and the picture they draw about the rust freak will not lead to a proper conclusion, except you throwing a Hector. As Bonhoeffer said, stupidity is not an issue of intelligence, it is about being close minded, and there is enough stupidity in both camps atm.

[@desktorp]

These Rust fanboys need to go make a new project and stop trying to take over Linux. This is a lot like RedHat trying to do a hostile takeover using systemd. The fact that a lot of these guys are Microsoft employees is very suspicious. Go make your Rust-based kernel and OS if it's so great. If it's better it will be the next big thing. Linux has enough problems without becoming a testing ground for every novelty project that comes along.

[@joseoncrack]

Yes, this is sort of obvious that it's a trojan horse kind of thing.

[@iceteazen]

linus himself want this to happen as he said "to not stagnate"

[@desktorp]

@ Linus has made plenty of bad decisions over the years that he has later recanted.

[@philadams9254]

Came here to make this exact comment. Just make your own OS if it's that good...

[@th0rnr0se]

Immature.... brings to mind a toddler throwing a tantrum in a store because mom said no. Be scared that these are the future "adults" .

[@mmstick]

@@th0rnr0se People said the same thing 2000 years ago. Yet it's because of younger generations that we have what we have today. The old shaped the world that the young live in, and it's the duty of the young to continue to make progress on top of that.

[@TheEVEInspiration]

I just see a group of Rust enthusiasts with less experience, totally focused on their own tech island. Not seeing the bigger picture and pushing their hobby onto a huge codebase and maintenance process. And when they do not get their way, then start playing victims. So rookies thinking they are gods that know better and are blaming everyone else when they do not get it their way.

[@esphilee]

I have the same feeling.

[@joan38]

Rust is the equivalent of a car, it has safety built in. C is equivalent to a horse. Tech innovation is inevitable. The question is, do you want to be part of it (cars)? Or do you want to get stuck in the past (horses)?

[@iceteazen]

@@joan38 exactly what Linus said he doesn't want Linux to stagnate

[@pacman_pol_pl_polska]

@@joan38 Rust is antichrist. C is God. God's kingdom is inevitable. The question is, do you want to be part of it (C)? Or do you want to get stuck in hell (rust)?

[@arnabbiswasalsodeep]

@@joan38 as @DeeaA-o5z put it, The sentiment that "Rust will take over when C dinosaurs finally go extinct" is one I see over and over again.

[@SvalbardSleeperDistrict]

13:43 That language may not be helping that drama, but neither were responses by that Christoph that took the discussion to that point. He was being asked politely and nicely about technical matters, and his responses were toxic, self-centred, passive-aggressive, patronising talk-downs. I absolutely think CoC people should be talking to those who act and speak to others like that. A space of technical collaboration should not be allowed to turn into some people silencing others and spreading toxicity just because they don't know manners or can't handle their temper. I was not surprised at all with the "I'm tired" email and the resignation that followed that - that's exactly what is caused by that sort of behaviour towards others.

[@ancwhor]

I doubt it's the first time Christoph been asked a similar question. Doubt its even the 10th. Can undestand his frustration. How often does rust side of linux try and inject rust into kernel because to me (0 info on this. first time seeing this) it seems like Christoph was just fed up by requests like that. So from my angle he just seems based. I think at the beginning Christoph was just a tad rude until bugged again and again no? It had nothing to do with rust. It just has everything to do with having anything exept C in the codebase. or am I missing something? They had an api for DMA that the rust maintainers couldve used to build around and instead crashed out? Is that not what happened?

[@SvalbardSleeperDistrict]

@@ancwhor Based? Acting like it's his personal domain where his moods are more important than collaboration? He or his work are not more important than other people and their work - if he can't even be expected to behave the same way as the attitude he is receiving from others, he is free to take off and do solo projects where he doesn't have to interact with anyone. It doesn't matter if it's about Rust or anything else, and it doesn't matter how many other people have inquired about that question before. It actually seems it's the other way around - as the follow-up emails show, it looks like that kind of bullying and disrespectful behaviour are repeat occurrences there, and are discouraging people from work and engagement. He was toxic all the way through - in response to the original inquiry, in response to repeated requests for a solution (and "just don't touch my work" is not a solution), and so on. And if someone thinks they are "being bugged" because they are repeatedly asked for technical solutions - because they are not providing solutions with their own responses, only being passive-aggressive and making it personal - they should not be involved in any kind of work that involves others. It seems there is a need for a codified approach to cases like this in that space, instead of this case-by-case "we'll handle it based on what mood maintainers are in that moment" attitude, but that's a separate issue from that person's behaviour.

[@ancwhor]

@@SvalbardSleeperDistrict yeah that approach is called not having anything but C in kernel. Was he rude? Yes. Do I still agree with his stance? Yes

[@SvalbardSleeperDistrict]

@ "that approach is called not having anything but C in kernel." If that approach is codified, then it can just be linked to people who are asking about that, and that will be the end of that. If it is not codified, you can't point to "well this person already said they don't like it", because that's not a formal, official approach of the community and can't be used for anything. "Was he rude? Yes." That is all that was being responded to in my comment - the question of how some people are causing problems in teamwork for important FOSS projects. I couldn't care less about the technical matter of whether multi-language codes should be used in the kernel.

[@ancwhor]

@@SvalbardSleeperDistrict thats fair. yeah that makes complete sense. I wonder why it isn't yet.. I admit I did think while later after commenting it shouldve just been a comment instead of reply... sorry

[@nempk1817]

Average Rust fog wanting to cancel people on social media.

[@pacman_pol_pl_polska]

CoC eating silly billies.

[@alaryanmobile1476]

I'm glad there's some push back against rust. Allowing it in the first place was a mistake. Hector's replies were very telling of the nefarious intentions of these rust communities. Infiltrate well established and stable projects. Then drive out or die out or shame out unwanted members. Then fully take over the project. Hmm, where else have we seen that take place.

[@ringwoorm7985]

I think a Rust kernel should be there but not be default, either as a separate branch or as a specific build flag. I've been a C and ASM dev for a bit more than half a decade now and a Rust developer on and off for about two years now. If the Rust kernel really is better then people will switch to using it, the worry around Rust and if the Rust maintainers will stick around is very reasonable I believe. Rust and C interop isn't the most fun I've ever had either.

[@monsterhunter445]

The issue isn't that rust is not better or better its just open source and its hard to push change.

[@StarOnCheek]

Can't believe the code of conduct is not being used for evil for once

[@sciencedaemon]

Code of communism.

[@justanothercomment416]

@@sciencedaemon Winner. That's literally the only reason they exist.

[@apparition.spectre]

Rust people: 'memory protection makes memory leaks a thing of the past' A certain desktop creator writing everything in Rust, 'Hold my beer' (makes a desktop with more memory leaks than anything ever written in history ever) "Rust" 🙃

[@justanothercomment416]

Yep. Rust seems to save from the lowest hanging fruit of the issues. There's still tons it does not address. Especially in this domain where "unsafe" is commonly required.

[@Winnetou17]

This is a lie. Memory safety is not the same thing as memory leaking and Rust fully acknowledges that (and has since forever). Educate yourself before spewing lies. And, no, I'm not a fanboy

[@justanothercomment416]

@ Rust does not prevent every class of leak. Enter lifetimes which sometimes force forever. Which is what we programmers call leaks.

[@silience4095]

Nobody says that Rust prevents memory leaks. If they do, they are lying or have not used Rust for more than a week.

[@8bitsloth]

Rust in the Linux kernel doesn't seem to be about Rust in the Linux kernel. it seems to be about the people maintaining rust having the approved beliefs, be it political or otherwise, as the kernel maintainers running the shit show. The recent problems with Rust doing very not memory safe things while the people who preached to you that it was memory safe now says we don't understand what memory safe is tells you all you need to know about what forcing Rust down our throats is really about. Linux needs to be cleansed of idealogues like these.

[@gnagyusa]

Mixing languages in a project is a terrible idea. Linus made a mistake allowing Rust in the Linux kernel. We can safely conclude now that the experiment has failed, so it's time to remove it.

[@pacman_pol_pl_polska]

@@effy_922 Is that an anime avatar?

[@Kerojey]

agree. Even the basic Rust language idea also failed, it should also be removed

[@Henry-sv3wv]

If i was President Trump i would fly over the Gulf of America and sign papers to ban Rust from the Kernel.

[@Grouiiiiik]

Sounds like teenagers trying to argue with a wise man. Talking about hypothetical problems, having no patience and not acknowledging the facts. Then trying to pressure him with stupid politics and social media. One could bet those "maintainers" will not be around for a long time anyway.

[@SavvyNik]

Thoughts on Rust in Linux?

[@sonulohani]

I would like the kernel to stick with C

[@qbasic16]

I think at this point, we should start a separate kernel built solely on Rust.

[@akitake_]

@@qbasic16 I don't think you quite understand the size of the linux kernel's codebase.

[@BurninVinyl]

overhyped.

[@irlshrek]

rust is such a good language. this is just a bunch of noise and growing pains

[@robfielding8566]

C++ bindings are totally unreadable. Name mangling is a horrible thing, and I can see keeping name mangling away from their code. I presume that you might be making Rust functions with similar name mangling. For the most part, high level languages should probably wrap-around C code; so you can talk direct to C.

[@numberlessconglomerate]

Rust creeping into C projects is like rust creeping onto old machinery - slowly corroding the foundations until the project is unusable. What once ran smoothly just in C starts to fail under new codebase. Eventually, the only solution is to replace the corroded project with something new.

[@Kerojey]

Now we know the meaning of the language name, lol

[@TheChrisHardiman]

I hope the Rust developers can work something out that works for everyone. If you as me Danilo's proposal seems like the right direction, but only time will tell how this plays out.

[@georgehelyar]

Unfortunately as demonstrated here some people are so stubborn and completely unwilling to allow any rust in at all and the only acceptable solution for them is to remove rust entirely, so there's nothing the rust side can really do about that, they will just reject every patch that helps people to use rust because they don't want it there, and what they are doing is working because the rust side eventually gets burned out and gives up.

[@SpocksBro]

Yes, they should do everyone a favour, fork Linux and do their own thing (good luck with that). Dual+ language in a project as huge and essential as the Linux Kernel is asinine and creates more problems than it "wants" to solve. Anyone that worked on big projects and attempted the same will tell you so. Rust has turned into a Religion and that's the true problem here. An increasing amount of coddled minds that need and weaponize a highly subjective CoC with claims of being traumatized doesn't help either.

[@toolman1990]

@@georgehelyar No that is not the only solution the c programmers who refuse rust with zero technical justification can be permanently banned from being a Linux maintainer and the problem is solved.

[@yellowajah]

Rust is the future. For mission critical software such as OSs, it's either adapt or die. Do you really think that people with an overlapping interest in both rust and kernel/OS dev will be interested in linux contribution in the future? Unless the Linux project commits to adapting, it's not going to be able to attract Rust talent, the C maintainers will be stuck on life-support while the rust implementation shoots right past them.

[@CoolestPossibleName]

Go do your homework kid

[@Kerojey]

keep dreaming. There a lot more capable C devs, rather then Rust. I yet to see Rust project at Half of the scale as Linux

[@toolman1990]

@@Kerojey They are going to become unemployable C devs with no job opportunities since the government is pushing for memory safe languages like rust. C Devs can either adapt or look for a new carrier path that does not involve computer programming.

[@Kerojey]

@@toolman1990 you can only work for government, right?

[@toolman1990]

​@@Kerojey​Memory safe programming languages are going to be required by both government and business's so Linux can either adapt or die like Unix did.

[@knofi7052]

To be honest, adding Rust to the Linux kernel was always a bad idea to begin with...

[@Tazato]

Citation needed

[@coffee-is-power]

It's lasting longer than c++ lasted so it's already better

[@ZixaphirMoxphar]

Say what you want, but when the people who want to write drivers want to write them in Rust, turning them away is a mistake

[@T1Oracle]

We have horses, we don't need cars! 👴📣☁️

[@yebjharsevran8204]

Do you realize we need maintainers right?, the crisis is all over the open source ecosystem and Linux is not the exception, and taking down promising and important protects like r4l just because you are someone that doesnt feel comfortable with a little change on its way of working is as stupid as stopping important changes in the kernel just because that would break a subsystem that has not beeing used since 1995

[@AxelWerner]

All these coders are used to "design" and structure instructions and data the way they want it to be. They often decide why and how to do things, where nobody else decided anything. i imagine it is difficult to discuss a way or a solution with these people , especially when they are not payed to do so. It's like sailing a ship with 100 helm men on it. they all want to improve it. but everyone has his own way or style. plus there is still the problem of maintaining stuff for years , decades even. this is hard . but i would like to THANK EVERYONE OF YOU open source developers !! does not matter what project. Sharing is caring.

[@aeronwolfe7072]

i don't blame these Kernel devs who don't want RUST in their code. It's LAME. And the people who 'evangelize' it are JUST THE TYPE of people who, once they've pushed Rust onto X% of the Kernel, they WON'T STOP. They'll push that ish into EVERY file if they can. They'll get rid of C if you let them. They will take and take and take just like ppl like this do in their real lives. Rust is for rude, pushy, jerks. All offense intended.

[@s4uss]

cope and seethe

[@Jac486]

@@s4uss Thanks for justifying his point :)

[@michaelutech4786]

I think this conflict is not well represented by looking at just the context of this issue or mailing list thread. On the social skills side, Christoph is certainly not a good mediator. Danillo hits a stone wall here (undeservedly from the looks). What is not quite clear in the narrow scope of the discussion is that Rust introduced a systematic conflict of interest in the kernel that was not there before. Before Rust, there was just Linux as an immediate concern of all development activities. With Rust, there is the promise of a better (memory save) future and the price that each Rust module imposes on the C side of things which is still "the kernel", because the vast majority of code is still C. There is a Rust vs. Linux, but not a C vs. Linux conflict. For all members of the C/Linux fraction, Rust is a burden, as a matter of fact. People who are primarily concerned with the kernel, and look at output vs. cost, will still choose to use C. It's simply cheaper to do stuff in C, not necessarily for the implementation itself but for the maintenance of the entire project. The extra effort to reach the same quality level in C that Rust provides for free is (probably) much less than the overhead that results from choosing Rust. This will change over time as more and more Rust enters the kernel or maybe even when more languages are allowed in, that eventually will make multi language support a necessity. Once that happens (any of more Rust or more languages), the overhead for using Rust goes away and then C will be the worse choice. This is inevitable, because C is simply no longer the best choice. I'm not sure if Rust is really the best choice for a kernel, but it's almost certainly better than C. If a kernel was to be written from scratch, it would be a mistake to do it with C today. The burden is naturally on the Rust people. That's because the effort for the C people to "allow Rust in" is always more than any benefit Rust provides for any specific change. Looking at these issues from that perspective makes Christophs harsh and confrontational style maybe more understandable. If the guys who introduced Rust to the kernel would have demanded language parity from the start, Rust would have never made it into the kernel. So they made promises instead. From what I understand, the introduction of Rust in the kernel is very likely a good thing. The concept is proven. But that does not mean that it's already time for language parity. That time will be there as soon as a Rust implementations will in fact not incur a burden on Linux overall, and not just in theory or in the future. Maybe what triggered Christophs harshness might be broken promises? Or maybe the prevalent attitude in the Rust sphere that they are the best and merit preferential treatment at any cost? That's not Danillo. But there are quite a few very opinionated and demanding people in Rustland. It would have been helpful if Christoph would be less confrontational. But at the same time, it would be just as helpful if the Rust guys would be more patient or at least understand the argument the C fraction makes. If they don't agree with that argument, they better discussed about the actual argument instead of letting the drama cook up every time there is a concrete conflict of interests. This conflict will not just go away. That takes time and work from both sides.

[@DM-ym1fj]

I hope your updates might inspire other C and Rust developers to step in and fight the good fight. Open source needs more devs who can put the users first and not their personal hangups.

[@benarcher372]

So, what was the outcome of the technical issue?

[@NTR-Impact]

Just get rid of Rust. It's a technical debt in the long run anyway.

[@MichaelHowald]

They're saying they want to contribute based on the merits of their ideas, but they don't understand that part of the merit of the idea involves the rest of the team. The hostility they're facing is quite reasonable given the circumstances. If their interest was in improving the kernel, they'd find a way to improve the kernel. If their interest was to use Rust in the kernel, they have to find a way to make merited changes overtime, proving value to the rest of the team, and changing the minds of other maintainers with a carrot rather than a stick. The people that maintain the kernel are in their position because they take good ideas with caution and violently reject bad ideas. The team has a bigger stick, so if you're not willing to start with carrots, I'm not sure what you think will happen.

[@AtomicRocketDigital]

Rust lovers create your own Rustix Operating System and be happy!

[@qy9MC]

19:20 Omg what a take from Linus at the end here. Savage resonce, and he simply called a line from entire tread and ripped it appart so hard from there that a maintainer left. Wow. This was a very entertaining end there.

[@robfielding8566]

it's time for somebody to write a Rust OS kernel.

[@TheEVEInspiration]

Let them indeed, I bet they stop after 10% of the work and call it quits.

[@robfielding8566]

@@TheEVEInspiration it might work for a context like Arduino though. but taking on the Linux ecosystem is kind of nuts until you have a real reason for new kernels and drivers. like a simplified real-time OS or something.

[@nempk1817]

It already exist and its not useful. RedoxOS. Rust Fogs thinking they are the smartest people as always.

[@konoko-o3o]

Redox OS?

[@robfielding8566]

@ At a minimum: Google Chrome, VSCode, Golang, Rust, Zig, C ... those basic things must work; enough that you can develop on it, and use the browser. Maybe you need a Unix VM to run legacy apps.

[@aesculetum]

if it was any other language, the discussion would be over; but rust has a different breed of users that won't take no for an answer, when it comes to their technical and socially superior language

[@pacman_pol_pl_polska]

Rust is a magnet for mentally ill people.

[@s4uss]

@@pacman_pol_pl_polska like anti-rust sheeple like you yes

[@RogerValor]

ah, so it is about rust then, and not about "multiple language projects" after all?

[@pacman_pol_pl_polska]

@@RogerValor Can you even read?

[@desyfer1709]

I don't know too much about how the kernel dev cycles go, but I would have thought that the moment Rust was introduced in the kernel, there would have been guidelines on where it is allowed, and where it isn't. If you're not prepared to take the difficult step of setting (at least initial) boundaries, why bother creating chaos by adding another language? Also disappointed by the Rust devs playing the victim. It's not just a personal preference that is stopping the guy...Christopher literally spelled it out what he doesn't like...and it's not Rust. That thing is bigger than some random small group's hobby, and has a lot of software dependent on it being maintained. It's not 90s anymore where it's just random hobbyists hacking the kernel for fun.

[@mattvisaggio]

Here's what I gather: the kernel is written in C. Most devs and maintainers know C. Rust is better. Rust in the Kernel is not optimal because it's not true Rust and needs there needs to be a layer added to fit Rust in. The C guys don't want to worry about the layer breaking and are afraid they don't know the actual Rust code well enough to manage the ongoing dev. Rust folks get upset and start to leave at the call they made. Why not fork and rewrite the kernel in rust from scratch to make the next gen Kernel instead of approaching this as a patchwork into the main Kernel? Huge lift but might be a better thinner safer Kernel?

[@DeeaA-o5z]

"Rust is better"

[@grokitall]

Forking would be a more honest approach, but some in the rust for linux project see rust as a strangler meme which will gradually push c out of the kernel. There are a number of issues in the rust community, but that was not mostly what was going on here. The rust maintainer basically said that they produced rust bindings for the c code to prevent duplicate code in the rust code. He then asked for it to be included in the mainline, and basically got told impolitely to go pound sand, and that the c maintainer would do everything in their power to kill rust for linux. He then asked Greg and linus for a statement of policy, and also called out christof as to if his behavior breached the code of conduct. The response was total silence on the technical issue from Greg and linus, who just made themselves look bad. Especially as linux was dumping c code which broke rust. This needed a response. He then clearly stated that if they want rust in the kernel which linus has previously advocated for, and the maintainer is as hostile as he showed himself to be, then the only alternative is to work around him, hence the need for a definitive statement of what he is supposed to do. There are good reasons to take Chritofs initial position, but going from there to saying you would do anything you can to kill the entire rust for linux project which has initial support from linus certainly looks like it does not fit with how he should be behaving. Linus needs to make a choice here. Either he wants other languages in the kernel, and blocking pure c code which breaks them is fine and christof needs to get on board, or he wants it out of tree, and thus should not be blocking pure c code for breaking the out of tree build. He can't have it both ways.

[@justanothercomment416]

Worth pointing out, there exists no evidence Rust is better in this context. For many common coding activities in this domain, Rust's "unsafe" must be used. Which places it on the same safety page as C and C++.

[@iceteazen]

these rust maintainers should just go to redux and abandon rust for linux anyway, linux is a huge c-codebase now plus it seems that c devs don't wanna deal with rust. but redox is a newer OS which is fully rust

[@iceteazen]

@@justanothercomment416 you don't have to use unsafe all the time only in small blocks of code btw.

[@3Rton]

the irony that the whole point of that thread was one maintainer saying "no replicate this individually for every rust driver instead of having your fucking cancerous other language module" and Linus only bothering to reply bashing Hectors behaviour and to comment on Gits decentrality lmao Hectors definitely a drama queen but then again we wouldnt have drama tubers like you or prime reacting to this if it WAS just the deafening silence from Greg and Linus on the actual topic instead of bashing social media culture, now would we

[@bigpod]

4:34 i think you misunderstood just like christoph What they wanted to do was just that have an abstraction over C apis that Rust could use but Christoph seemed to be against that and saying what to me sounded like he was thinking they want to replace the C API all together

[@ashwinrawat9622]

A stable rustacean is like a clean python codebase.

[@stupidburp]

There are a large number of software projects outside of the kernel that can benefit from Rust. Regardless of your opinion on whether Rust should be in the kernel or not or to what extent, there may be other places to put your energy with much less frustration. Those who are highly skilled at using Rust and enjoy coding in it are a relatively rare resource. Don't waste those human resources with burnout.

[@justanothercomment416]

You need to understand, this is really about taking hostage the LK community and placing it into the hands of The Message loyalists.

[@lawrencemanning]

Yup. A www browser is the obvious choice. Server end as well.

[@cheako91155]

I think the LKML counts as social media. Christoph had no technical leg to stand on and should be timed out or just banned from LKML, he is just wanting to block progress for the sake of blocking progress no project needs someone with that mindset.

[@planetchubby]

Christoph is both correct and clear. Perfect mindset.

[@cheako91155]

@@planetchubby Correct about what exactly? Can you point to a single line of code that he said anything correct or even incorrect about? He has no technical argument to evaluate for correctness.

[@user-ro1cc8tz6d]

​@@planetchubby"le new thing hard"

[@pieru]

​@@cheako91155 can you?

[@GegoXaren]

No Rust code in a C code base.

[@yomismo-j4l]

all rust devs need to quit and fork the kernel

[@alucardhellsing9640]

get forked 🤣

[@Kerojey]

all rust devs need to quit*

[@84Actionjack]

I'm not a coder but maybe they can't flank the whole code base war by writing the entire kernel in Rust; may the better code base win?

[@mdiego3847]

One, this exchange is going to be reopened again with different people or the same people. It's going to go back and forth and loop around on itself until someone's head is so far up their ass that nobody knows or cares anymore. Linus offered zero, in this discussion, and it's basically Lord the Flies. I can see Kristoff's point of view and I can see the Rust team's point of view. However, from what I can tell and understand, the Rust team is willing to work with everybody. Kristoff says piss off in a nice way.

[@DevJeremi]

I hate C++/Rust syntax, so I suggest we convert Linux to Nim-lang ;)

[@u9vata]

Honestly the rust people are the most insufferable bunch of guys... That Hector was totally just an asshole, writing at wrong places (like stealing a thread by offtopicing in it here) and generally wanted to use CoC and other militant approaches against people instead of talking about technical stuff... Rust is indeed the problem here - languages that more properly build on C would have been 10x better... like a Zig or something.... I actually also work on a language and it also integrates better with C... Also rust people always want to have their new abstractions... This basically duplicates the dma interface: one for rust and one original C API... Rust drivers would only use the rust one and then pile up and make it mandatory to maintain a rust-only API that is specific to the language... very sinister and annoying approach... API should be totally C-only API and not language specific - but rust people does not understand that... because their language is annoying around for simple APIs like the C api... Real solution: An "out of tree" rust library that you can pull in if you want to communicate with the C API of dma.... why not want this? Because then you cannot force around rust more in the kernel...

[@toby9999]

I don't know a whole lot about Linux, but... 1. The Linux kernel has been around for 30+ years. 2 . The kernel is mostly written in C (or was) 3. We're told the Linux kernel is extremely stable. Given those three points... why introduce a new language into the mix? What problem is being solved by adding Rust code?

[@taragnor]

Mainly to eliminate potential exploits. As an OS, especially one that runs servers, having potential unsafe memory management that might result in something like a buffer overflow is a big deal as this could let a hacker find a way into the system.

[@th3Tyk3]

Rust should be thrown out. It's not worth the drama.

[@dcorbe]

Tell me you've never been around hispanic people without telling me you've never been around hispanic people.

[@CC21200]

I am a bystander with minimal knowledge on the situation. It looks like Hector poured gasoline on things in a way that would be obviously unhelpful, but only after being pushed to the limit from the actions of Christoph and others. I would have liked to see some comment from leadership about Christoph's stonewalling, which was the original issue and seems to have been left unaddressed.

[@sciencedaemon]

The code of communism committee.

[@justanothercomment416]

Kudos are the factually accurate call out.

[@Kerojey]

this committee definitely loves CoC

[@FrontLineNerd]

Does any of this impact the rust updates we've had in Proxmox?

[@jollyjumper5784]

rust is too different for experienced c devs who just want to get work done, not master a new lang. also it attracts the wrong crowd: entitled, coc sucking brats who dont want to think about memory management. they should praise linus daily for graceously letting them write some drivers in a fancy language and shut the f up, instead of whining that devs refuse to let them introduce code they stop to maintain at the very latest when the next fancy new language comes around

[@justanothercomment416]

Good call out. Nice to see others actually understand the the bigger picture. That C Oh C only exists to mandate enforcement of the social Message.

[@TheEVEInspiration]

100%

[@toolman1990]

Quite frankly this was a loss for the Linux community and Linus Torvalds is solely to blame for this issue not social media since he refuses to ban Linux maintainers for blocking rust programming for the sole reason of not liking the memory safe programming languages like rust. Quite frankly rust is the future and c programmers are going to have to get over themselves since years of exploits has taught us that humans are incapable of writing perfect code, so we need memory safe languages like rust to write safer codes that are less likely to be exploitable by hackers. It will take at least a decade or two before c programming is converted over to memory safe programming languages like rust.

[@SuperSuneel]

Clear explanation and no bullshit things in between like the prime

[@tamirazjargal9161]

rustcels seething

[@s4uss]

Cels more like

[@thcoura]

How miserable is the life of a kernel maintainer. Since forever

[@maxnew453]

they should just abandon the R4L project and focus their energy on projects like RedoxOS

[@notandyvee]

Im not a C developer, and know very little about low level system. But can someone explain to me what the point of adding the shim in the codebase does? Why can't someone write Rust and import it on the Rust side? Re-use the code. Why does it need to live in the kernel code?

[@Kerojey]

They are making drivers rust layer, it cannot be done in userspace

[@notandyvee]

​@@Kerojeyok yes. That makes sense. But why does it need to be part of the main kernel? Do drivers normally get committed with the kernel? I know nothing. Just trying to understand.

[@JodyBruchon]

*Nik, you need to grow up.* Pandering to snowflakes waving a fake rule list around doesn't create excellence. You can disagree that these people need to be yelled at until they stop trying to force a second major language into Linux but you'll forever be wrong.

[@RogerValor]

Could not disagree with you more, that you highlight this Hector guys' *first* comments as bad. He calls out exactly the issue in the room, and the blockade of the guy who acts like it is not personally on rust, but generally on multi language projects is obviously a cover. It is not like there are thousands of languages waiting at the door, and I bet that Zig would not find this much protest from the same participants. You say it is nonsensical, but actually, but I rather think: Christoph provoked the flamewar, playing the long game by sticking to a subset of grievances, on purpose, intentionally or unintentionally, driven by biases. Yeah, it was dumb by Hector to call on the gods and be over-righteous, yes. Hector might have lost the debate by exploding emotionally instead of letting it slide. But not all his comments are wrong, and clearly, circling in on him with immediately pulling this as a social media stunt was actually introduced against him just as much as Christophs stubborn comments were clearly intended to poke a bear. If anything, as a neutral bystander one gets the impression, that while everything Linus said was technically right, he might be wrong about one thing: the system seems *not* to work. Also, he chimed in only on the drama, but not on Dave, who made the clear suggestion to ignore Christoph, as well. Ultimately I think this prophecy Hector just made will age quite well, unfortunately.

[@ab-qh7ot]

why start r4l if they see rust as cancer?

[@SavvyNik]

Let’s not take this out of context. This was mentioned by one maintainer of a very specific portion of the kernel. The DMA and shouldn’t represent the broad community.

[@MommyKhaos]

​@@SavvyNikthen why does the entire community and Linus seem to come out of the shadows to vilify anyone who doesn't use C? Like fucking hell bud, the C developer literally compared any language other than C being in the kernel to it being a cancer. Yet, somehow, the Rust developer was the bad guy? *He* was inflammatory? Linus needs to stop being a wishy washy no stance MF'r and actually take one. He can't keep going and saying that he's publicly okay with the kernel having Rust, but then turning around and saying it's always the Rust devs faults.

[@lawrencemanning]

Very true but a big part of r4l’s reason for being is that Rust is hip and trendy. Plus Linus wanting to show that he is a “good guy” now. There’s no way this would have flown if Linus was still the old Linus from the 90s. Which I prefer but that’s not the point.

[@SirSomnolent]

Cancer while having a rather negative connotation actually describes the intent of the rust developers fairly well though virus might have been more accurate.

[@Kerojey]

stop being so soy over simple word, jesus

[@Aoitori365]

spicy kernel drama

[@liminal137]

Excellent analysis. Thank you.

[@baejisoozy]

I love how drama queen hector's long pitched whining just resulted him removing himself ... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLL.

[@TheRealAudioDidact]

Yes I know. I love it when we lose talent!

[@pacman_pol_pl_polska]

@@TheRealAudioDidact Talent to shit your pants, cry, whine and destroy is not needed.

[@tsalVlog]

bluntly, Christoph should quit. He has lost sight of the point of Linux - a group-developed, modern posix-compliant kernel using newer *methods and technologies*. And before I get jumped on - I would have said Hector should quit, too, but he already did.

[@00wheelie00]

It's what I would have done if I was forced to deal with Rust. (Or at least start looking for another job) Rust sucked all the enjoyment I have programming away and I would not want to deal with that frustration indefinitely. That said, CH leaving will leave a big hole to fill.

[@Leonhart_93]

The only right thing to do when you are forced to work in something that is slowly becoming not what you signed up for. Let them deal with the mess.

[@deadeye1982a]

The Rust developers take over the maintenance of the abstraction for “dma.rs”, derived from “dma.c”. The C source code specifies everything. The driver developers then use the Rust abstraction, which is specified by C. Is that the case? Who is blocking whom here? Where is my mistake? Why isn't it finished yet? Can't this be automated?

[@sitypn]

Can somebody create a playground for all Rust guys so they can leave Linus alone :D? They keep hitting to the rock and crying like baby.

[@turanamo]

are you using a stylus to draw on screen using something like gromit-mpx?

[@SavvyNik]

Yes, Wacom tablet

[@baejisoozy]

Rust fanboys need to fork linux and fork off. FFS.

[@lawrencemanning]

For Forks Sake? 😂

[@baejisoozy]

@@lawrencemanning yes 😂

[@ManusRex]

The way they handled Russian maintainers issue and Kent Overstreet , and given their own past behavior, Linus and his cohorts and fanbois/girls come across only as flaming hypocrites!

[@irlshrek]

I think hector is right.

[@comosaycomosah]

i think c devs and linus are right

[@karathkasun]

@@comosaycomosah we know C devs and Linus are right, the kernel is proof that the process works.

[@pacman_pol_pl_polska]

Not a good look.

[@zahell]

I think it's time to rust devs to make a full rust version of the kernel and stop whining.

[@joseoncrack]

They have Redox. It's obvious that the Linux drama is by Rust devs that feel on a "mission", not just devs who want to contribute.

[@rtothec1234]

Redox?

[@Kerojey]

It would be shit and nobody gonna use expect few activists

[@metachronicler]

Christoph just sounds like he thinks the kernel is about what he wants specifically. Rust or something like it should be introduced before the people who are old timers die or retire. The industry as a whole is moving away from C for good reasons, this kind of purely self serving sabotage really needs to be discouraged by the leadership.

[@pieru]

no one is moving away from c. i don't know what drugs you've taken but you tweaking.

[@GegoXaren]

C is growing, actually... Rust has been quite stagnent in the whole.

[@scapegoatforsaken8544]

The actual solution is very simple. If you want Rusty kernel, just fork the entire kernel, maintain your own Rusty kernel by yourself. In that way, you are happy that you can have the kernel with Rust. At the same time, on the other hand, I would be happy too, since I don't have to see any Rusty code in my kernel. You happy, I happy, Win-Win situation, so no need to corrupt the pure originality of Linux kernel. Just leave it as it is. If you don't like the originality based on C, then again, create your own Rusty kernel - that simple! However, the solution is not simple any more, when it comes to deep-state big-brothers (e.g. MS, Google, Meta, etc.) financially backing up Rust for some reasons, and even enforcing it into kernel. Then my question is "WHY?". I don't get their purpose at all. They have all the money to restart a new kernel based on their own luxury language or whatever language they may call it either Rust or not.

[@y09i_]

You can also clone you pure original C kernel. Win win. As to why Rust; new programmers don't want to learn C anymore. It has too much baggage, so it can not be improved effectively. Companies wants larger pool of people that can do low level programming for them. Rust is easier to teach and maintain.

[@pieru]

@@y09i_ first come first served, rust gtfo. clone yourself a new identity and hop the border kid.

[@joseoncrack]

They have Redox exactly for that. The very point is that they do NOT want to leave Linux alone.

[@BurninVinyl]

C parents vs Rust child. Rust-kun do your own kernel alone and show that is much better to these C parents, until then "old road safe road". If the mentality of Rust-kun is so common in their community, Linux will implode when Linus will retire.

[@joecan]

this.

[@glenni83]

Another day in paradise

[@gregf3021]

Don't think doing a multi language program is going to work out. Use C or create your own thing.

[@iceteazen]

redox os

[@shamringo7438]

@@iceteazen Redox is written fully in rust tho. It's not even a valid argument

[@parabolicpanorama]

what i dont understand, is why the code of conduct committee is so selective. Hector may not have been correct in the social media brigade, but hes not wrong in saying that the cancer comment about someone elses work on no technical basis is also not the best. Shpuldnt the discussion be kept professional? if theyre gonna bring personal attacks into this and someone else reverts back, why should only they be reprimanded? Linus gets away with this so many times as well. Processes change. The current process works because it was decided over many changes. if its having issues again, maybe its time to look at the process altogether instead of sticking to "it just works".

[@seylaw]

These discussion should be kept professional, but as I've seen first hand last week, three Gentoo developers thought otherwise that I had the pleasure to interact with on the LLVM issue tracker (#72413 for anyone interested) creating unneccessary drama for a rather small issue.

[@TheEVEInspiration]

In the same mail the use of the word cancer was explained, it ment the mixed language nature of the code-base causing problems (when introducing ever more rust). Hector later tried to present that the use of the word cancer was meant different. Just to play victim and gain an upper hand in the discussion.

[@esra_erimez]

I'm keeping a close eye on Redox OS. It is a *all* Rust OS/

[@markbond08]

They should be using Zig

[@puffinrock2871]

Rust religious fanaticism, lot to see it.

[@s4uss]

classic unfounded smearing, by people who have no clue what Rust is.

[@tothandras8160]

thank you for your review

[@IlyaSergeev0]

Jeez, these people have zero social skills

[@pauldunecat]

It's funny to me, that scrolling back on your channel's vids, the titles about linux is dying, and this video barely touches on that issue, when it's KEY to the survival of linux. New people are unwelcome, and when they try to make things better and adapt to the times, the existing ancient maintainers will not be around forever in this mortal plane.but will continue with doing it like they have for coming up 30 years. Choosing a monolith bites you in the backside eventually, and the technical debit is coming due!

[@pacman_pol_pl_polska]

Old = bad mmmmkay

[@pauldunecat]

@ Yes. In this case very much so. It's like the old ways of partitioning countries by "great powers" Their ways should be dead and buried in the past. But we continue to have khuylo sticking around long past their expiration dates.

[@lorenzo42p]

that is the most mature response possible. a person who can speak his mind while staying mature and civilized, is a person I can look up to. that is the type of person I try to be, but I fall short. tldr, Linus basically says "I refuse to be a part of this drama. you will get no answer from me."

[@danbuffington75]

Rust fans are the tech version of Dallas Cowboys fans 😂

[@AugustusTitus]

Just amazing how Linus cuts through everything.

[@TheRealAudioDidact]

It’s not amazing. It’s his trademark. He can easily say and do anything he wants and others have to comply. Poor Hector.

[@suomi422]

Old C guys are despair because they have to learn something new and they language is falling apart in modern age

[@DeeaA-o5z]

If you know C, learning most other languages is trivial and a matter of learning features and syntax. There's a reason it has not been replaced for 50 years, and it will be around for another 50.

[@joecan]

What a hen party.