Saying Goodbye to Souls Games

Elden Ring's transition to Open World seems to be something that a lot agree was a move that detracts from the traditional Souls experience. But I haven't seen a discussion that encapsulates why that is for me.
The Internet squabbles have made this a more difficult discussion than it needs to be. Join me while I painfully unpack that discussion.
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Music Credits
by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio
by Gamechops
0:00 Intro
1:35 Part I: Narrative Genre Vs Gameplay Genre
8:29 Part II: The Emotion of Metroidvanias
20:13 Part III: Dark Souls Isn't a Metroidvania: It's THE Metroidvania
32:36 Part IV: Downgrading to Elden Ring
44:07 Part V: Apology Portion of the Video
For everyone asking about the Elf-girl-in-a-cape game, it's this: Record of Lodoss War-Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth-. I'm not recommending it or recommending against it. If you want my one-sentence review I'll say this: it wasn't anything special.

[@jakerune]

Man this was a really sick Elden Ring essay about Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order. Love your stuff as always.

[@reese7221]

It's a great game and I hope we see more like it.

[@RhizometricReality]

Hellpoint was probably one the best soulslikes iv played by a 3rd party

[@justamanofculture12]

@@RhizometricReality GTA6 will be the best soulslike game

[@djbeema]

Could've mayyyyybe used a spoiler warning for that game, but I ain't mad

[@MalkuthSephira]

@@RhizometricReality hellpoint is so underrated. i honestly was shocked AND incredibly excited when they really did manage to put out a dlc despite how badly it got buried in a tide of other titles

[@oops6876]

Despite the success of the game, I truly don’t believe Miyazaki will allow the next FS title to feel the same as ER. The only game we’ve had “return to formula” was DS3, and I think that was only to appease the fans who disliked 2. Shifting from BB to Sekiro to ER shows that Miyazaki has a knack for reinvention. So I’m excited to see what he musters up next!

[@iota-09]

pretty much. there almost surely will be an elden ring 2 which will expand yet again on elden ring's formula, but before that something else will come out(likely a new armored core), and even then... i just don't agree with most of his points against elden ring, as they either seem to tie the gameplay loop of overworld discoveries with dungeon discoveries, or simply ignore anything about souls games past ds1, as most of those "negatives" about elden ring are things present in literally everything except dark souls 1(yes, including, to an extent, demon's souls)

[@marloges]

I'd argue that Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 1-3 and Bloodborne (to a lesser extend, but still) ALL used the same basic formula. Some just being slightly more open than others. I'm very certain the next FS soulslike game will also be open world and similar to Elden Ring.

[@___.51]

Yeah even 38 seconds into the video I was thinking, "you really believe that, though?" Now with the Armored Core announcement I think ER is going to serve as a last hurrah to the soulsborne series for awhile.

[@oops6876]

@@marloges they each have different approaches though (besides 3). DeS wasn’t a metroidvania, but DS and BB were, but BB changed the combat style and the general aesthetic to create a new experience. There’s been a progressive shift along the way instead of just copy-pasting

[@marloges]

@@oops6876 They all aren't Metroidvanias, but why would Demon's Souls be an exception?

[@kristoffer3075]

There are some great points here. One thing that struck me of this is that the "enemy skipping" and open world abusing becomes less and less viable in the lategame. In the early game (pre-Leyndell) this is all true. However, from Leyndell and on, pretty much every area is a high-risk linear area where every push you make runs the risk of you losing your runes, and enemy skipping is challenging. Take a look at the game from after you beat the Draconic Tree Sentinel: Leyndell: Non-linear dungeon Forbidden lands: Linear world zone Mountaintops: Mostly-linear world zone Snowfield: Open world area Haligtree: Mostly-linear dungeon Mohgwyn Palace: Mostly-linear world zone Farum Azula: Mostly-linear dungeon Ashen Capital: Non-linear dungeon A LOT of the 2nd half of the game may still have fast travel, but it's still very much governed by linearity, progression, and being forced to fight your way forward. In the Haligtree in particular the saves were so far apart that I felt that exact respite that you're talking about whenever I found a new SoG. I agree with your assertion that a game should be judged by it's creators intentions; but I don't think Miyazaki's intentions was to make DS4. ER sets you on a huge task: enter the Lands Between and dismantle the system that keeps them in limbo from the inside. The main emotion I felt when playing ER wasn't risk of death; it was risk of being blindsided, of realizing I didn't have it in me to see my enormous task through. In its vastness, ER introduces a far more existential risk: The risk that no one will care that you've failed. Varre says it at the start: "You are fated, it seems, to die in obscurity". I think that's something that only an open world game can truly achieve, because the enemies often feel like they're just... indifferent. In a Souls game, everything is structured to feel like a roadblock, where pushing inwards creates an outward equal or stronger push that you must overcome. In ER, the emotionality of exploration comes from knowing that if you don't find an angle into Leyndell and beyond... Varre, and all the others who barely react to your presence until you come charging in, will be RIGHT. To me, ER absolutely does not feel like a theme park because the world doesn't feel like it was PUT THERE for you, the same way a dungeon in DS can feel. I think that's masterful, and I think judging ER purely on whether it manages to be a good metroidvania is a mistake. But that's just my opinion - I really like your analysis and I think you make some excellent and cohesive points. Subbed.

[@somerandomchannel382]

isnt there a simple solution? just create a mod that don't allow maps to warp . problem solved?

[@papatubez3062]

This is true. The farther I get in the game the more I realize I can't just run off and farm somewhere like I did earlier. I have to fight my way through and it feels more like Dark Souls

[@daktuno]

Great comment. When I played Elden Ring I felt something similar to when I first played Shadow of the Colossus.

[@mic01851165]

?? Skipping is challenging? Snowfield ppl will just skip pass 95% of the conbat cuz doing it is actually too dangerous cuz scaling is messed up XD You talking abut Halictree and Asula right? Do you notice those 2 areas are exactly like older areas of the Souls game being the only 6 "legacy dungeon" type of maps in Elden Ring that follow the old soul series linear interconnected maps, which is the good part of soul series? They're NOT even open world anymore. Edit: I reread it again, yeah all the areas you mentioned outside of snow field are NOT open world. Open world bit is where you find caves/ tombs/ runes. Those locations you mentioned are the legacy dungeon that follow the old Soul series enclosed level design. Players will always find these areas better cuz it is the good part of the game, not the open world ppl would skip pass every time in their repeated playthrough.

[@PhlightYagami]

​@@mic01851165 I disagree that "players" will find those areas better. Souls fans might find those areas better as they more closely align with a genre they've grown to love. But as we've seen with Elden Ring, "players" as the body of all gamers love the open world and From's implementation of it. My biggest gripe with this video and the many old Souls fans who make the same complaints is that they are missing the forest for the trees. A huge amount of this game is built similarly to old Souls. The list in the above comment doesn't even come close to touching it all. Yet because of the existance of the open world, old Souls fans seem to be ignoring that nearly half of the game's content is contained in traditional Metroidvania style design. This balance of grand openness with closeness, confusion, and personal fear perfectly aligns with the narrative that the game is trying to tell.

[@HOFxBoards]

While I appreciate your critique, Elden ring isn’t trying to capture the same feeling as dark souls. Being stuck in a huge world like Elden ring would just make the game tedious and boring for a majority of people. I feel like a lot of your criticisms are why so many people tried and loved Elden ring.

[@Bilndmann]

And the reason veteran fans didn’t love it. It’s not the same type of game, and that’s okay, but it’s less emotionally gripping and tense than the souls formula, which is why it has disappointed so many.

[@Syllights]

@@Bilndmann "Veteran fans" of souls games are arguably the most annoying and childish group of people on the internet

[@fukunaga-kane]

@@Bilndmann kinda sick that ds fans can’t accept that this game isn’t DS

[@alwest4472]

@@Bilndmann well of course it’s none of those things/ isn’t the same as dark souls. It’s not dark souls.

[@victisomega4248]

@@Syllights As a souls “vet” I both take offense to, and agree with, this comment 🤣

[@Sylocat]

"A lone knight destined to rekindle the flame in a dying world" is very much *not* the theme of Dark Souls, it's a lie being fed to your character by a decrepit aristocracy trying to trick you into sacrificing yourself to help prolong their weakening grip on power. There's a reason DS3's story was all about the horrors of sequelitis, and the futility of trying to spin the franchise's wheels forever just to please an increasingly unpleasable fanbase. More generally, I think you overstate the degree to which Dark Souls was a brutally punishing game. And a good thing too, since "The risk that the game will autosave if I enter an area that the game didn't warn me I was under-leveled for" is a terrible way to balance a game. Dark Souls was expertly designed to *feel* brutally punishing while actually having a fairly moderate skill floor (and yes, this misconception matters. I saw new players bounce off because they wandered into the Catacombs and just figured, "Well, everyone says this game is brutally difficult, so I'm probably just supposed to power through here instead of exploring to find somewhere easier."). Like, don't get me wrong, I have my own laundry list of quibbles with Elden Ring's world design, but the fact that it more accurately communicates the intended gameplay experience isn't one of them.

[@iota-09]

i've seen people play all the way to leyndell without ever upgrading their weapons to +3, likely cause they had never talked to hewg, and think "well these are hard games so that's probably normal" we still bring with us the mistakes of the past to this day.

[@jiffylou98]

I’m with porpoise here. Sure it’s a propped up lie, but it is still your significant goal regardless of its validity. The games are about making impact in places where things are out of your control, and whether zombie pope is lying to you or not, you’re still going to try and rekindle the flame

[@Birthday888]

@@jiffylou98 But... There are endings where you specifically choose not to do this? In fact, one could argue that letting the Flame die is the only ending where your choice actually has an impact, because rekindling the flame only serves to keep the inevitable end at bay for a couple of centuries more.

[@CarrotConsumer]

@@Birthday888 To even learn about that ending you have to go out of your way or get insanely lucky. Otherwise it's just a meaningless binary choice. The game is still about you getting to the first flame regardless of what you choose to do with it anyway.

[@PrypeciowyHovnozer]

oh god, everyone knows that already 🙄

[@reese7221]

While your views are valid, I offer another perspective, as I believe the point has been missed. Dark Souls and souls-like games are often about the risk and the danger, and the relief and accomplishment one feels when finally getting through an area, sometimes after many attempts, and you rest and regain your power and are able to repeat and slog through the next area. It's a sense of accomplishment in the gameplay that fits the trials and suffering usually depicted in a dark fantasy genre. Making this open world did remove much of the risk and allowed for freedom, which does not fit a dark fantasy as it no longer seems dangerous. But Elden Ring is not a dark fantasy, it is a high fantasy. It is a story of a sprawling world fraught with danger and challenges, and you are given the tools to overcome them. You have more allies at your side than ever before. The story isn't [quite as] obfuscated like previous games. While it still takes some analysis and deep diving to obtain the full picture, there is more often than not an NPC who has the information of what is happening in the world and will openly share it. The progression-gate and sense of accomplishment does not come from fighting through a linear dungeon, struggling until you finally reach that checkpoint and locking in your progress (aside from the legacy dungeons, which have earned their name exactly because they were built to emulate the previous games). The progress comes from your character's power and capability. For the first time the player can acquire and perform nearly every ability their enemies use against them. Margit's dragon hand, Comet Azur, Radagon's blades, the ability to mimic, and the breath quite literally ripped from the chest of nearly every dragon in the game are at your disposal. You are no longer a withered undead with a sword and maybe a pyromancy hand struggling to get past beings you could never hope to match. You are a hero slaying those who stand in your way and taking their power for yourself. The game fails to elicit the same emotions as its predecessors, but that's because it's not supposed to. Instead, it offers the emotion of righteous glory (or less-righteous, in some endings). Both genres changed, the gameplay AND the narrative, and they still work together. (Edited to offer more fair language towards SolePorpoise. I don't want to suggest he's wrong. He has an opinion and I'm sure others agree. I simply suggest a different point of view.)

[@PhiltheMean]

Thank you! I've seen a lot of Elden Ring critiques as of late making largely the same points about it not being Dark Souls enough....and that's kind of the intent of Elden Ring, right? You are more powerful and so are your enemies. You aren't a nobody, you are a tarnished warrior. You are guided by grace to conquer. I think the discourse on common themes in FronSoft games has become so embedded they don't notice narratively Elden Ring is about a conquest for a throne. Each major rune holder is in direct conflict with each other. The world is at war and it is broken. You are just the next contender quickly moving up in power and influence. It fits the themes of becoming more powerful and the world itself less risky. It's another direction entirely with a familiar skin.

[@spacedoohicky]

Your comment is important. Stephen King once upon a time wrote under a pen name so he could write stories that were different than his usual stuff, and not get told it didn't fit his style. Style conservatism is as old as writing, and has always been somewhat annoying.

[@reese7221]

@@spacedoohicky Exactly. It has become a joke and meme in game reviewing to say "but how Dark Souls is it?" It's a game that created a genre (perfecting the formula begun by Demon's Souls), therefore using it as a baseline comparison has some merit, but it's done that way only because Dark Souls is still a game with it own presence. People don't look at first-person shooters and ask "but how Goldeneye is it?" Asking that question towards From Software themselves though is a disservice, and only diminishes their validity as creators. They have a gameplay genre they excel at, but if you look at Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Sekiro, and Elden Ring you can see than none of them are the same narrative genre. Bloodborne is what is often called the final epitome of lovecraftian horror, but that does not mean FromSoft then felt the need to include that aspect in every game going forward. We did not get another talking protagonist with a decisive narrative after Sekiro. FromSoft has only proven they can expand their horizons and utilize their formula to make a wide variety and yet not become beholden to themselves. So there is no reason to think that everything they make going forward will be open world. At most the pattern suggests an Elden Ring 2 would be, but FromSoft can easily create something else. The sales are not a fair suggestion that they must follow the trend simply based on success. They were always a niche developer in the beginning, but continued success will naturally expand their customer base. Not to mention their marketing for Elden Ring was far greater. Every game of theirs has sold better than the one before, and they still changed the formula each time. I think the genre will continue to thrive with little issue.

[@spacedoohicky]

@@reese7221 I'm interested to see what the future holds. I imagine a Bloodborne 2 wouldn't be open world. Or it might be more open, but not like Elden Ring. It's unpredictable, but I think it's a stretch that Elden Ring is going to box the design of future games in. There is a high demand for maze like environments like Dark Souls.

[@jiffylou98]

Elden Ring is its own experience, but there is still something to be grieved in the transition away from linearity and linear tension

[@FCTheHunter]

In disagree with the part where we need abilities in order to unlock areas in dark souls. A veteran could go anywhere from the start of the game without much trouble, nothing but skill/knowledge blocks our passage.

[@f.j.herrera4244]

This is also true in Metroidvanias(to an extent), with low percentage runs.

[@marcarribaslopez8910]

True, but you get that ability of skip things when u got a looot of hours gaming these games

[@f.j.herrera4244]

@@marcarribaslopez8910 Exactly. A perfect example is not using grappling beam (key item/ability) to access the Ghost Ship in Super Metroid. It is a test of skill

[@lorikun6484]

You're right, but again that makes you feel you're "unlocking" places using your own skill, even more than other Metroidvanias. That was the point

[@SoftBoiledArt]

Key items do exist and make progress impossible without cheating/glitches.

[@shodahollow4021]

Elden Ring isn´t about a lowly warrior desperately seeking to restore order in this world. It´s about a warrior becoming King of this world using any means necessary to defeat the ever increasing threats in their path. To this end you have a whole Roundtable at your disposal with people that help and advise you as you progress and prove you are strong and capable enough. Of course the only times you´ll feel alone and isolated is when you´re inside of some other Lords home or a dangerous animals cave. Out in the open fields however, it is your playground, your territory and you are pushed towards exploring everywhere to find more tools to use and enemies whose strength you´ll take for yourself so you can kill even bigger enemies with bigger cooler abilities to take for yourself.

[@whatman956]

That’s pretty much not what the lore says whatsoever, and if the game make you feel that way, there is a dissonance between the narrative and gameplay.

[@jjjaegerist0433]

@@whatman956 let the man have fun cmon

[@36shadowboy]

@@whatman956 dude your canon love interest in the most supported ending is a scheming, cutthroat murderer who steals the Elden ring. If you think the lands between isn’t portrayed as an “everything goes” type of bout then why can you summon like 11 people for radahn?

[@whatman956]

@@36shadowboy well correction, there are endings in which every thing goes(Ranni ending), but for most endings it’s about restoring order(how you get there matters less here), which the OP denied. The very existence of the Erd tree is a form of genetic order. Hence, only in the Lord of chaos ending did the Erd tree face total destruction. Bear in mind in the Radahn fight it’s a festival, hosted by someone who truly wish to set him free.

[@whatman956]

@@jjjaegerist0433 I’m not replying to their later sentiments regarding how they enjoy the gameplay, but mainly to their statement:”Elden Ring is NOT about…”. I’m saying narrative wise it is indeed about those things.

[@skeletonmf]

Every souls game since DS2 has allowed you to warp at the beginning of the game. A lot of your points about Elden Ring losing the tension and relief of traveling from bonfire to bonfire applies to both sequels, Bloodborne, and Sekiro. Because you can always just warp somewhere else if you're stuck, grind souls, level up, and come back when you're ready. I don't really understand how the open world makes this different besides having dozens of other things to do at any given time.

[@TheLingo56]

The funny thing to me is I think for that reason the only time I was ever deep into a Souls game was Dark Souls 1 before you gained the ability to warp.

[@skeletonmf]

@@TheLingo56 I can understand that, though I find each game has its own value. DS1 for it's interconnected world and lack of fast travel, Bloodborne for it's horror and aggressive combat, Sekiro because the combat is clashing swords and breaking posture (like an actual sword fight, go figure), and Elden Ring because of it's scale and freedom. As far as the Souls sequels though, I like them but they don't offer much new to the table and lack what made DS1 special.

[@slothhq1929]

the open world in the way it was implemented in elden ring allows you to bypass all the enmies top get alot of the loot. whcih makes most loot feel undeserved.

[@Dmc841]

@@skeletonmf DS1 really was special and I rank it up there with Bloodborne as my favourite Souls titles

[@tytar1037]

@@gameurai5701 I disagree. I played Elden Ring first. 800 hours, then all the other games. Out of the 3 souls games, DS1 is my favorite. DS3 is great and feels much more modern, but it’s missing something that DS1 has. DS1 is just a very special game imo

[@Crazymerc22]

I feel this critique only works if you're comparing Elden Ring only to the first half of Dark Souls. This comparison doesn't work at all if you're comparing Elden Ring to Demon's Souls, Dark Souls 2 & 3, Sekiro, or Bloodborne. The emotion between the other souls games and Elden Ring are definitely different (though IMO they are both fantastic and in many ways similar), but I think this way misses the mark in terms of WHY that emotion is different because the reasons given are definitely not the reason why.

[@Crazymerc22]

Also, just a small note, Souls games have always been inspired by Zelda. They are in fact the biggest influence on these games compared to any of the other games souls takes inspiration from. So while Elden Ring's open world definitely takes inspiration from Zelda's attempts at open world, Elden Ring is by far not 'Zelda, but Dark Souls' because Dark Souls is already like Zelda. I know its just a minor comment you made in the video but just wanted to correct it.

[@ma_na_gurab]

@@Crazymerc22 how in the world is dark souls like zelda? They are mechanically diffrent as hell,if you say elden rong took inspiration from botw then fine I am not complaining, but the ds1,2,3 having being influenced by zelda is a stupid ass take

[@iota-09]

@@ma_na_gurab it was literally confirmed by miyazaki down to mentioning how lock-on was something they took looking at z-targeting in ocarina of time. and discoveries of secrets in general being something they took from thefrst zelda with bomb-able walls and the likes. exploration-wise, elden ring is pretty my much a modern idea of the very first zelda(or at most link to the past)

[@ma_na_gurab]

@@iota-09 article link?

[@iota-09]

@@ma_na_gurab honestly i'd love to find it again myself, i have a bad habit of never remembering where i read or hear things and it's particularly bad with interviews as more nieche interviews will become extremely hard to find later on.

[@RyanDMcDonnell]

So after watching this twice there's A LOT of claims made here that I disagree with, have zero evidence for them, make large assumptions, or ignore elephants in the room. Overall, it's a thoughtful essay. However, I'd like to list some of these things that don't make a ton of sense to me: 1. Elden Ring is going to be the new template for Souls games going forward--You say this at the beginning of the video and is at the crux of your entire essay titled "saying goodbye to souls games." But I think there's more evidence to the contrary than in support of this claim. Yes, Elden Ring was very successful. But Dark Souls was also very successful and they intentionally ended that franchise. There'll almost definitely be DLC and probably a sequel (maybe two). But I think Miyazaki will continue innovating as he always has and will end the franchise at its proper time. It was an ambitious title that (like Breath of the Wild) has a lot of flaws that I'm hopeful will be resolved in future titles. 2. Dark Souls is a Metroidvania--I don't disagree that the original Dark Souls is a Metroidvania, but you set up your argument that Elden Ring is the first title breaking away from this set of expectations. While you don't say that outright, the title "saying good bye the souls games" and your overall attitude makes it clear that you think Elden Ring made the mistake, and not DS2, DS3, Sekiro, et cetera--which all feature warping early on and have similar problems to Elden Ring if you were looking for a more Metroidvania-like experience. You literally don't talk about these games at all, and because of this it's a gaping hole in your essay that goes unresolved. 3. Exploration, or lack thereof--While I agree that a lot of games are less about exploration and more about completion, I don't think that Elden Ring suffers as much as you're making it seem. It may not have been to your tastes, which is completely fair. If you don't want to call Elden Ring's gameplay "exploration" I would argue that "completion" isn't the right word either. Perhaps "discovery" is the word I would use. There are so many moments of genuine surprise and delight and terror and curiosity and intrigue throughout Elden Ring that top DS1 in my opinion. Not the game as a whole, but individual moments. The first time you jump over the wall and see the blood red sky of Caelid. Or when you discover the hidden world inside of Volcano Manor. Or seeing Raya Lucaria from a distance and seeing the mysterious and ominous castle. All of these were breathtaking for me and FromSoft crafted a lot of guaranteed experiences in an impressive way for an open world game that set it apart from many others (in my opinion). I would also argue that the focus on discovery is the theme of the game and its combat as well. It isn't trying to be as challenging as past titles and provide that sense of claustrophobia. Instead it is trying to provide a sense of wonder which is fueled not only by its monsters but also by its rewards. Through discovery, you find overpowered weapons and summons, et cetera, which I think are all part of the core gameplay. Some people see this as an oversight or a watering down of the Souls formula, but I think it was intentional. Lastly, I want to say that I don't think Elden Ring is flawless. There are a lot of issues with it. But I don't think exploration is the issue here. Or at least, I don't think it's a fair criticism for a game that does so much of it incredibly well. Criticisms that I would levy against it are its overall lack of balance, some seemingly broken mechanics, and a lack of a "sweet spot" for difficulty. But honestly, I think it was an incredibly ambitious title that got as much right as is realistic to expect. Breath of the Wild had many more issues in my opinion when it launched. I largely think the long and intense criticism videos of Elden Ring are only due to its popularity and the high expectations that FromSoft has set for its fans. I'm highly optimistic about future titles correcting issues and refining their talent as they seem to do with every title.

[@jamesrandall470]

I would like to ask, is Dark Souls 1 a true Metroidvania? The lock and key gameplay of a big map in a Metroidvania specifically relies on abilities to unlock new areas rather than say, pushing a button or literally finding a key. I'm not saying Dark Souls 1 doesn't do this, but as far as I'm aware, I don't remember it being considered one.

[@RyanDMcDonnell]

@@jamesrandall470 It's up for debate, but he spends a lot of time arguing it is in his video. From my perspective it doesn't matter. He seems to primarily have an issue that Elden Ring isn't a Metroidvania when I don't think that matters.

[@edgarpledge5206]

Absolutely banger comment. So sick of these Elden Ring critiques. Every other AAA studio doesn’t hold a candle to FS and yet these bald ass nerds feel the need to take a big dump on their most ambitious title.

[@opethmike]

@@edgarpledge5206 Most ambitious? Yes? Biggest failure? Also yes.

[@ivanchaki372]

@@opethmike "Biggest Failure" *Checks at the sales yeah definitely the biggest failure. Man you guys almost make me ashamed of calling myself a souls veterna.

[@gabriellemos5565]

I generally agree with the author on how the game doesn't feel as "coated in risk and reward" as the first Dark Souls, but I kinda disagree with a lot of the conclusions the video eventually gets to. The main thing is how some of the "risk and reward coating" thing gets associated with the Soul series as a whole, as if Elden Ring is the sole exception. I feel like this isn't true at all, since pretty much every single soul title after the first Dark Souls made traveling between checkpoints available from the beginning. Edit: since my comment has since been highlighted, I would also add that the author also completely ignores co-op and all multiplayer features that would very much oppose his argument of being forced onto risk. These features exist in pretty much all soulsborne titles and do not exist in a vacuum like in other videogames, being directly referenced by character dialogues, item descriptions, etc. The game incentivates the use of co-op, in quite a direct way.

[@gabriellemos5565]

The difference here is the world structure, yeah, since Elden is open and offers more choices when it comes to where to go and how to do go about it. But pretty much every DS title after 1 made a few optional paths readily available as early as possible, and the teleport thing made sure you never felt stuck. So I guess this can still be true if we're talking just about the first Dark Souls, but it's not really something you can associate with the whole series (Bloodborne as well). Plus honestly you could always just co-op... And this is something the game incentivizes you to do a lot.

[@zzodysseuszz]

Your comment being high lighted doesn’t mean anything. It means someone liked it, you clicked on the notif and then KZbin put it at the top for you only so you could find it quickly.

[@ScrodumHat]

i feel like barring fast travel gives too much risk for not enough reward. if you go to the catacombs (maybe even tomb of the giants) first, it’s a fucking massive pain up the ass to get back, so much so that i often hear about people making a new character just so that they can get out. it’s disingenuous to player enjoyment on a large scale. i do get the arguments against it though, in that it makes the world feel less interconnected

[@gabriellemos5565]

@@zzodysseuszz Didn't know about that. Thought it meant it was more visible for some algorithmic reason.

[@NeuralSensei]

One of the biggest constraints of difficulty based progression is the linearity of game design. Because the Elder Ring world design and some of the mechanics are less demanding you aren't forced into the most optimal liear progression path, hence making it practically less difficult if you're getting stronger.

[@sleepyzets6792]

The points you make about the gameplay systems in Elden Ring removing the risk factor out of exploring the overworld made me think about the Gothic games from the early 2000s. The philosophy in these games was to limit your exploration pretty much only based on your characters capabilities. Even though Gothic has an open world almost without gating areas behind keys or abilities, in the beginning of the game you are too weak to explore anything and you are forced to only travel on the roads between camps. While that takes you from one end of the map to another, all the interesting places you see from afar remain out of reach. Only as you slowly level up, more and more paths will become viable to take on and the open world unfolds itself. When exploring an area for the first time, you never know if your are strong enough for it, as even when you can handle the first few enemies, behind the next corner could be a foe so strong, you wouldn't even be able to inflict damage. Enemies are almost always faster than you. They only stop chasing after a while, making running away more of a game of trying to beat enemies tracking until they give up. Fast travel is only available about halfway through the game, and only to 3 or 4 points on the map. Combat, while being mechanically ancient, provides a lot of the same feelings as Dark Souls does. It is timing based and works best in 1 on 1 encounters. The overall narrative genre of the game is dark fantasy as well. I think an open world in the style of the old Gothic games would have been a decent fit for Elden Ring.

[@AvgIttoEnjoyer]

The Soul Reaver games are a fantastic example of this.

[@polski8bit]

Ayy, fellow Gothic enjoyer. I also absolutely adore the world design principles from the first two games and am to this day baffled by the fact that no other studio has tried to replicate that. It's such a simple, yet effective idea to implement, making the game both linear and not at the same time, which is genius. Or more specifically - making it linear while also making you feel like it is not. There's also always plenty of side quests and optional areas to explore that reinforce that feeling. However Elden Ring technically also has the same design principle in mind. Technically you're supposed to go to Weeping Peninsula first, which is most likely the first legacy (more like mini) dungeon most players will finish, perfect for getting the hang of things. Then you're supposed to explore Limgrave, until you're strong enough to tackle Stormveil. It is *technically* optional, as you can very well go with Rennala's and Radahn's runes instead, but Godrick is a much easier target and Stormveil is probably the best legacy dungeon in the game. After that, Liurnia opens up. Once you're done with that, you can either tackle Caelid if you're brave enough, or more likely go to Altus Plateau, as that's an area with more stuff to do around your rune level at this point in the game. Then it's a straightforward path through Leyndell, Mountaintops, Farum Azula, Capital of Ash and that's where the game ends. It really is not much different compared to the Gothic games. Of course, if you're good enough you can go basically anywhere you'd like in Elden Ring - but that kind of applies to Gothic 1 and 2 as well. Okay, Gothic 1 us a tougher nut to crack, as enemies there will not take damage unless your total exceeds their armor/protection, but if you're brave enough and experimental (or just knowledgeable), you can slaughter the entire Orc City in the first Chapter. Especially if you're going for dexterity/bows or melee weapons. If you're going for magic then here unfortunately there's no way of progressing how you please, as you're limited by merchant's stock and magic circles being limited by your progression in the game, with no way to go around that. But in Gothic 2 you always deal at least 1 point of damage to any enemy. If you're good with timing your attacks and dodges, you can even beat the Black Troll with nothing but your fists (sound familiar?) at the beginning of the game. It's just that Fromsoft games are naturally more polished when it comes to combat, as well as years of experience people have gotten from the Souls games that allow you to go basically anywhere you'd like in Elden Ring. That and the ability to grind runes much more easily than in Dark Souls, especially with Torrent by your side.

[@speluniarz-2045]

@@polski8bit You can use golem hearts to cast powerful spells, so it's possible to play as a mage from the first chapter

[@nonono9194]

Nah elden ring failed in that regard since it's much easier to run past enemies and get into higher difficulty areas, the thing that elden ring crucially lacked for me was something gothic did right which is to have permanent stat boosts as a reward for exploration, in gothic you'd have perma potions hidden around and rare plants that you could then turn into perma potions, with elden ring you just find a decent farm spot to level up, makes exploring feel less worth it, if they had perma stat boosts and more harder to run past enemies it'd be much better for it

[@AvgIttoEnjoyer]

@@nonono9194 Or if they made supplies have a cap like enemy farming in Dark souls 2

[@iota-09]

19:56 aaaaaaaaaaaaand that's when i stopped the video to write this comment. let me be clear: i do find the definition of the genre metroidvania ambiguous for dark souls, the roots are there but i don't believe it is fully one, for there is ONLY keys in solslikes, not powerups, unless you consider spells and weapons powerups, but aside from a few rings ike the ds1 orange charred ring, generally everything you get in these game that is not a key cannot be used as a key besides unintended mechanics and glitches, that, to me, is a key difference to metroidvania, and that to me, is also a very important difference because the actual game dark souls takes mainly inspiration from in terms of exploration isn't metroidvanias, but zelda, specifically, the very first zelda and ocarina of time. it is not so much about exploration to "explore", as it is about exploration to live adventures and most importantly, discovery. i've not yet watched the rest of the video, but let me guess: you're gonna say that elden ring fails at making the in-game exploration coherent to the narrative because everything is optional and lacking a suffiicient risk aside from traps, and those traps are generally not something the player willfuly chose to fall into, right?(unless they read a message on the ground or something, obviously) if that's the case: ...yeah, what about it? that's irrelevant, because no matter that, the result will be the same:my eplorin an area unexplored before with enough attention, you'll make new discoveries, be they other paths, secrets, new areas, bosses, treasures, lore... THAT is the core of the exploration of elden ring, and it is by design that it is as optional as it gets, it IS supposed to be a power fantasy, at least in terms of exploration, you are supposed to become the elden lord, a creature who literally controls the physical and metaphysical rules of the world they live in... you can prove your might for that by doing wht the roundtable hold tells you and just off two great rune holders and then go on the path to finish the game, using only your player might to prove that, or you can explore and discover the game and become all-powerful in in-game terms. but here's the catch: why would you want to explore if you can just beat the game right away? i'm sure you'd ask. and that's fromsoftware's bet: you'll want to because that's in your nature as the kind of player who plays these games. "Ahh, yes, I see… You sense a secret within *SPOILER*, And cannot bear to leave it be. As if the spirit of Byrgenwerth lives on within you! Such inquisitive hunters will relish *SPOILER*. But beware, secrets are secrets for a reason. And some do not wish to see them uncovered. Especially when the secrets are particularly unseemly…" - Simon the harrowed, Bloodbrne "I've seen your kind, time and time again. Every fleeing man must be caught. Every secret must be unearthed. Such is the conceit of the self-proclaimed seeker of truth..." - Sir Vilhelm, Dark souls 3 this character trait these quotes speak of isn't merely the player character, it is the player itself, it is the core audience and focus of the soulslikes miyazaki makes, people who want to explore to discover, to complete, but also to challenge their own ability to uncover anything a game can make and not simply to see new sights and get rewards in general although it's a very subtle difference, the focus on exploration vs discovery is what splits elden ring from metroidvanias: you're not just exploring to get new abilties -there's no new abilties to get anyway-, you're exploring because you want to see, as a player, what this world has to offer, and if you're not exploring.. well, mostlikely you just like the overall atmosphere and base game challenges and don't have the time to deep dive, for in fact elden ring brings all that to 11 to a point which, i will admit, has faults(the intro with the noble scion may be its lowest point in these terms, along a few quest paths such as gurranq's if you don't follow it exactly the way you should) and to be honest? when you said "i have a hundred or so hours in elden ring" like it was an accomplishment, i was surprised. my first playthrough took me nearly 250 hours. anyway, let's keep watching... 36:06 agheel lake ruins transporting chest. bam there you go, that's the risk you were looking for, a fuckton of people if you look up online had to restart their save file because they couldn't figure out how to get out of the sellia crystal tunnel. also, how is that different from dark souls 2, 3 and bloodborne? if this is the basis upon which "souls games are no more" well... you're 8 years late with this video then, ever since ds2 you could just warp wherever you wanted from a bonfire. next point too 38:30 you get a shitton of tools in all souls games between hidden body, slumbering dragoncrest ring, alluring skulls etc where you can do this with relative safet as well. honestly i'm starting to feel these comparisons are a bit disingenuous...

[@Maxx__________]

A fundamental difference between what I consider a metroidvania and Dark Souls is that metroidvanias tend to hard lock you out of areas with keys or more often abilities. Dark Souls has some keys, but primarily soft locks you out of areas with challenge, and never completely so. Even extremely risky areas are peppered with non-losable item rewards that make the risk worthwhile on the whole. Does that make Dark Souls not a metroidvania? I dunno, but this is the key thing that stands out to me.

[@asdfghjkllkjhgfdsa8725]

It could probably have a gradient scale of variety with some areas being blocked by abilities and some by enemies or whatever. I'd like to see the line between the two genres blurred and varied

[@jakestocker4854]

Good point. I'd probably say Resident Evil is more of a metroidvania

[@rafafr9]

Yeah, his points for Dark Souls being a metroidvania because "it's the same feeling" aren't very solid. He doesnt seem to understand the structure of the genre very well. He talked about metroidvanias being non-linear, but structuraly they are generally very much linear in their progression, with controlled non-linearity at some point. The hard locking of the player through abilities IS the defining trait of the genre, something that Dark Souls literally doesn't have. Soullikes and Metroidvanias are sister genres, and share a lot of DNA, which is why prople who like one usually likes the other. And a game can have a feet in both (like Jedi the fallen Order). But they are not the same.

[@jakestocker4854]

Just to add it's cool to see the nods to Castlevania that From does like you can't tell me that the Candlestick Whip in Elden Ring isn't 100% a nod to Castlevania lol.

[@SaveMeXenu]

@@rafafr9 I recently said Dark Souls is like 60% a Metroidvania, it shares MOST of the Metroidvania DNA but has a couple key differences, which is why Soulslikes are considered their own genre.

[@alexisalbaceterodriguez1723]

Man, that video is insane, the effort, explanation and meticulousness you have put in this video is incredible. A good review of what a game can offer to a player emotionally speaking, and how to identify it. Great job!

[@allanzzthanatoszz]

I understand where you're coming from and I think this is a a genuinely very interesting video that comes from a good place, but is ultimately misguided in my opinion. My biggest problem is that you're singling out Elden Ring when, in reality, Dark Souls 1 is the odd one out in the franchise and the only one that truly works in the way you described. The fact of the matter is that the specific language and emotion you describe had long since been lost to the franchise and Elden Ring, if anything, actually provides a different narrative that fits more what it went for.

[@shodahollow4021]

Spitting straight facts! Dark Souls, especially after 3 or so games have failed to capture its magic completely, was more of a "catching lightning in a bottle" type deal. All the unfinished parts of this game point towards it. It also seemed like the Bonfires weren´t even meant to level you up, instead a level up maiden (presumably Priscila if cut content and such is to believe) would serve that purpuse... whose to say you wouldn´t be capable of warping back to Fireling to speak to her in that version of the game. Of course it was changed... for DS1 only and later revisited for ALL the other games.

[@tequilawhiskey]

Perhaps, like me, hes clinging to hope thst we might see another world design as ee did in ds1. And while im not totally given up in the prospect, i can see how one my interpert ER as the death of that hope.

[@thepmanimaker4380]

This! people are jumping to critic elden ring and the open world when every game after ds1 had long lost that feeling, if anything elden ring actually tried to do something different it had it flaws for sure but it also had it's strengths. in the other hand ds2 bb ds3 and sekiro all have pretty much linear worlds unlike ds1.

[@bpmfj5422]

​@@thepmanimaker4380 DS2 and BB worlds are not as linear as DS3. DS3 is the only truly linear dark souls (haven't played Sekiro so I cant say for that game). DS2 and BB, while not as "open" and interconnected as DS1, are still much more than DS3.

[@thepmanimaker4380]

@@bpmfj5422 yeah i agree they're not as linear as ds3 but they still don't offer that same metroidvania feeling that ds1 had, they feel more like multiple paths with dead ends.

[@River_StGrey]

A PvP streamer I really like did his first playthrough of Elden Ring with no warping, and the experience he had was so different from mine. There were tons of times where he was genuinely frustrated that he had gone somewhere before checking something else out first, and was now stuck half the world away from being able to check whether something would have been helpful. It really highlights your points about risk, where taking away warping reintroduced so much of it. I even had that with the Selia Cave trap chest. I was convinced I wouldn't be able to leave the cave even if I found the entrance, until I did something inside of it, and spent SO long figuring out how to get through and then defeat the boss. It was really amazing up until I realized I could have walked out of the cave at any time.

[@Azure9577]

Play morrowind

[@madspunky]

The Sellia Cave trap chest was my favorite part of Elden Ring! I wish the game would more often not let you teleport to safety... at moments you don't expect!

[@FreddeLibre]

not being able to fast travel is not a RISK. its literally just boredom inducing

[@WhatTheAlva]

The feeling of getting stuck is exclusively a Dark Souls 1 thing. Demon's, Bloodborne, DS2, 3 and even Sekiro all offer teleportation between save points from the beginning. Even if you are scared in the middle of Latria, well, there is not "middle of latria". At most you are one shortcut ahead of a faster boss run.

[@ennayanne]

you do realise that demons souls had one checkpoint per each level, right?

[@WhatTheAlva]

@@ennayanne Read again. In Demon's you can just go back to the nexus, teleport to another level, grind somewhere else, upgrade your weapon, buy or sell, etc. The trip from checkpoint to boss was tougher but there was no feeling of getting stuck somewhere you couldn't get out of.

[@ennayanne]

@@WhatTheAlva The feeling of being stuck is what occurs between checkpoint to boss. Regardless, they were literally talking about dark souls 1. not demons, not Bloodborne

[@henryozolins]

You're so gooood!!! I love how you have more nuanced and built-upon ideas than the usual video game essayists I'm used to. It's really refreshing, and I just can't describe how excited it makes me. I'm only partway through the video, but I just can't hold back any longer on expressing how I feel. Metroidvanias are also by far my most frequently visited type of game, so when you were discussing the differences between exploration and completion, it kind of threw me for a loop, because I was like, "oh yeah! dang, that is exactly how it goes a lot of times, I never even realized" (*mind blown*). I got so used to the mindless zone I get into with completion that I forgot the wonderful feeling that some gems offered me. I guess it might be why I got so attatched to a game like La-Mulana, where everything felt truly alien to me, and the added riddle component meant I had to really think about what I was going to go through next, and how each new place felt like I could be treading deeper into places where I was not wanted, or I could choose to go to an alternate mild area and see if I can solve the more obscure riddles of the area, both being quite tantilizingly intimidating prospects. I don't know, I'm just reallly excited by all the food for thought you've given me. Thank you.

[@SolePorpoise]

Thank you so much :)

[@dasninjastix]

I have no issue with your perspective here, I don't disagree with it but I guess I don't see it as a reason to be.. what's the right word? Forlorn, about the situation. The Souls series had its run. How many games with themes of stagnation leading to corruption and decay are really needed to illustrate that the devs are spinning the same plates? The fact Elden Ring carries over as much as it does from the Souls games to me is a little lamentable. They crafted such an excellent world, it'd of been nice for them to break away from the established paradigms and conventions of the prior games. Change is okay. Change is how you get Demon's Souls. I want to see From continue to innovate rather than iterate on their game design. The last thing I wanted from Elden Ring was Dark Souls 4. It's been done. A discussion I would love to see is whether Elden Ring deviates enough from the prior series. People need to let stuff die. Endless sequels and prequels, endlessly trying to recapture past moments in games, music, Tv, and movies.. It's okay to let things be done. Ironic I suppose.

[@theslavicrat3784]

I mean yea I agree but imagine if suddenly your favorite genera stops being made? Its like, there are very few souls game that are made with the care Fromsoft does them. I like the fact that they innovate but for the love of god pls just keep the same basics of gameplay. Poeple buy these gale cuz they want a souls like not fortnite

[@nsomjimi]

@@theslavicrat3784 but the thing Miyazaki is not fond of making sequels and the only reason as to why there were 3 Dark Souls game being made is due to FromSoftware contract with Bandai Namco.

[@b33lze6u6]

Ds3 themes are pretty overtly about just this, accepting things as they are and letting the past/the cycle die. And this is even more reinforced in the dlc. I dont think the trad souls format is dead either, from has resurrected "archaic" mechanics for their new titles when it fits. How many people complained when bloodborne went back to farming for healing items demons souls style. I think we will get a few more open world from games but idk if we will see them fully and irrevocably go full elden ring clone mode

[@traurigesland4622]

I suggeste the video by Jacob Geller "DS3 IS THINKING OF ENDING THINGS" guys

[@traurigesland4622]

@@b33lze6u6 yeah, I loved the whole NEW PAINTING metaphor in the Ringed City DLC Don't cling to a tired life, buy new paint and paper and lets draw something new! FROM SOFTWARE was successful BECAUSE of this! We are becoming the corrupted religious aristocracy with its morbid clinging to a decrepid world that Miyazaki so elegantly criticizes and beautifully depicts in his games as long gone mad creeps, old shadows od their past noble self. I know the feeling of fear and the need to cling. I say let's jump fellas, the future doesn't care about our feelings. From will create and create until they can. New paint!

[@Dorrovian]

One important note: The main difference between movement skills and keys while discussing something being metroidvania or not is fact that keys have only one use: opening doors. Meanwhile movement skills cause entire gameplay to change and evolve with each new unlock, opening different ways of exploring old, already mastered content, even if no new path were open there behind specific "key" or "ability". Double jumps, high jumps, mist form aren't less useful if creators didn't put specific "doors" in the place - keys are. Best metroidvanias usually combine both styles of opening content, so it's understandable that people consider game not having "abilities" not a metroidvania, as movement does not evolve from the start to end of a game. Personały I would say Dark Souls is more Zelda than metroidvania, especially old Zeldas (Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time).

[@spectralassassin6030]

Good example of abilities changing how you play is Ori and the Blind Forest/Will of the Wisps. If you never played those games, I highly recommend them. They're some of the very very VERY few games that left me with the "What do I do with my life now?" feeling after completing them.

[@nathanraymond7781]

Another way of thinking about it is that gaining new movement skills expands the vocabulary of agency the player has in the game. Gaining a key gives the player the ability to remove an obstacle to exploration with the vocabulary they already have. These two things feel very different for the player. New agency vocabulary feels like organic growth and evolution and can feel very satisfying and immersive. Gaining a key enables removing an obstacle in the player's path and does not feel evolutionary just progressive, and from a design perspective is risky since it can act as a reminder of the fourth wall and can feel artificial, especially if the locked doors and placement of keys is not carefully woven into the narrative but rather feels like they were artificially placed by a map designer to be a gatekeeper for optimizing a gameplay experience. I'd also argue that while players may not consciously articulate these differences, on an intuitive level they sense them when playing.

[@Dorrovian]

@@nathanraymond7781 Very well put, I agree!

[@cademaston9270]

Oooh a great example of the movement skills vs keys would defs be metroid dread. amazing game

[@simpson6700]

...aren't zelda games metroidvania games? you get bombs, a hookshot, a bow and arrow, spells, keys, the list goes on. you progressively unlock new parts of the map.

[@DIZ-bf5ws]

every game fromsof has made in resent years has been different. bloodborne, sekiro, dark souls and elden ring had the fromsoft formula but they fallowed there own vision. I don't think we cam just predict what kind of game they'll make next, fromsof just seems to make what ever kind of game they fell like making.

[@incurabletrickster1191]

It's my first time playing Elden Ring and my first time playing a Fromsoft style game. One thing I love about this game is the feeling that whenever I encounter an enemy I will almost always be in a fight for my life which for some reason I love. I've played other games like Fallout and Assassin's Creed and I never felt that feeling. I would feel a similar feeling however when I played in the "nightmare" or "hardcore" difficulties, but only for a brief time. Once you level up you eventually become an over powered god all over again and the game gets boring. Again. But in Elden Ring I am level 70 so far and I still feel anxiety when I leave the sanctuary of Grace and venture out in the big wide world. As you said, my anxiety is hyped up a notch when I'm in a dungeon, catacomb, or fort, as more times than not you have nowhere to run or hide. I especially have a very fond memory of when I was defeated by a Virgin Abductor in Raya Lucaria and I was expecting to return to my previous Grace and then I can go back and try and take back my lost runes and dignity. But instead I was transported to the pits of a volcano. I thought to myself, "easy fix, let's fast travel back to Raya Lucaria". Only that I couldn't. The game told me I was trapped and I couldn't fast travel. Furthermore, at the end of the dungeon my only way to freedom was defeating a pair of those monstrous Virgin Abductors. They destroyed me a number of times, but I eventually prevailed by the of my teeth. The sheer relief and joy I felt when I was able to fight my way out to freedom was so amazing and rewarding!

[@frysebox1]

git gud

[@zegreatpumpkinani9161]

As someone with thousands of hours in the Sekoulsborne series, and about 500 in Elden Ring I think I see where this is going. The transition to open world went as I expected, removing a lot of things I love about this series that other people hate, and adding a lot that I hate that many people love. I'm not mad, it was inevitable. Metroidvanias will always be niche because they service a small market. However I would like to say Elden Ring serves as a great example to open world games as a whole going forward, engaging core combat, a welcome lack of hand holding and ui bloat, etc.

[@jiffylou98]

I think we can just say souls games at this point

[@zegreatpumpkinani9161]

@@jiffylou98 counterpoint, Sekoulsborne Ring is fun to say, and can only get funnier

[@jiffylou98]

@@zegreatpumpkinani9161 valid counterpoint

[@leadfaun]

@@zegreatpumpkinani9161 Elden Soulsbornekiro/Soulsbornekiro Ring sounds better.

[@Eddison33]

And yet, I think it plays to its detriment, not to its benefit. For instance, how many NPCs and quests are easily missable in Elden Ring. How without Wiki, you cannot know where to find one. How you'd like to Google up what catacombs contain amulets needed for your build, not to waste a dozen hours hacking through copy-pasted dungeon designs with recurrent bosses just to get a spirit ash or talisman you'll never use.

[@Torchic960]

Haven't watched the full video yet but I do want to say that I'm of a (probably) minority opinion in that while I think it's possible from uses elden ring as a template for future games, I am not convinced that that is a certainty and can just as easily imagine them making different yet again, maybe something old style or maybe some other newer thing. Okay so now that I have completed the video, I'd like to address some thoughts I had with this. You and I share a somewhat similar view at points on this, but as much as you criticize the language behind talking about genres and the mistaken expectations that come out of those flaws, you still seem to cling to the genres like they actually mean anything. I mean no disrespect when I say this, but trying to identify these genre lines and paint pictures amongst them is a fool's errand twice over. Once for trying to define amorphous shapes, and a second time for thinking you can compare dissimilar items. I'm sure I sound elitist saying this but I really did just abandon talking about genres and their dividing lines a long time ago. It's the individual elements that matter. Sure we could discuss whether dark souls is a metroidvania until the end of time but even if we reached a consensus, what difference would it make and who would care? Anyways I gave up but if you want to continue to address that point I still see the value of discussing in relatable terms so you know, I don't know if you could really make a video essay without respecting those boundaries. In any case, the point actually still holds together here, because even though you make such a deal of this being an open world game and not a metroidvania anymore, the only meaningful differences in emotional experiences the change entails could be attained without altering the genre. In short, you could easily reinstate a lot of explorative pressures by just making grace warps more limited, and also by reducing the effectiveness of torrent. My full imagined solution would look something like, only scarce few graces can be warped to/from, and probably just add more areas that torrent doesn't work in or at least would be a poor solution for the player to try to implement. Partly the reason torrent is so accessible and grace warps so prevalent is that it eases the tension of trying to explore a world that has the issue not of being open, but being obscenely large. Likewise you can still overcome this issue in creative ways, with my preference is probably have like a highly visible tower somewhere in the relevant region, which controls your safepoint teleportation, but can only be restarted after enough of the individual ones have been activated and also probably have a requirement to spark back to life of having conquered the local overlord. Effectively like if the divine towers had a grace requirement and instead granted the ability to warp as a reward instead of a great rune. These two changes together would make it so that when you enter a new region, you basically are stuck there until you can either triumph or escape, with smart limitations on your method of direct traversal (ie torrent), would reinstate a lot of those style of emotions of helplessness that existed more commonly in previous iterations of these game styles. Especially if there were smart decisions made in the world design, IE more overworld locations that have one way passages that you have to actually complete to return to the main world. Basically I think you're mistaken for saying the old has died with a genre transition because smart decisions in future iterations of this style could still retain everything that you argue was lost. I think mostly this was largely a conservative attempt at creating a larger world because there would be great risk with potentially making the game to inconvenient to explore. But there is definitely room with further iteration to reach a compromise that loses nothing. (Also I kind of at least wanted to have my thoughts here being at least vaguely concise and relevant to the topic of the video but I personally do feel like a lot of the new elements that elden ring introduced are a natural and effective evolution of elements from prior games, including, in some ways, exploration.) If you read the whole thing, thank you for your time (to porpoise or anyone else willing to subject themselves to my ramblings.)

[@shankypanky8879]

A very good comment and not ramblings at all. And yeah, confining Dark Souls 1 to a genre or a label of Metroidvania when the game resonated with so many people because it was different from every other Genre in the first place makes little to no sense. Video is titled 'Saying Goodbye to Souls games' when Dark Souls 3 removed most sense of exploration as it was nearly linear and let players warp from the beginning and removed the risk to go down a path along with so many other things. Saying Goodbye to Dark Souls 1 would have been a more apt title.

[@phillipbotter6470]

Didn't watch the full video but posted this mouthful.

[@Torchic960]

@@phillipbotter6470 So KZbin has this feature where you can edit your comments, which can be useful if you, say, wanted to add on to thoughts you had after initially posting your comment. If you had taken the effort to read more than a single sentence you would have found that almost all of said mouthful came after I had finished the video.

[@SolePorpoise]

I appreciate the thought you put into this. That said, I’m finding it hard to see things entirely from your perspective here. I don’t think it’s a fool’s errand to attempt to define Metroidvanias better because-as I’ve said in other videos-language is the only tool we have as critics. And to define something as fundamental as game genres with more clarity seems like it’s not only the opposite of a fool’s errand, it’s crucial for the discourse. I attempted to do that here by discussing how game genres can influence emotion in a unique way. And that emotion can be seen as a defining characteristic of the genre-even if there is some overlap. I cannot imagine you calling an FPS an “amorphous shape” simply because 3rd person shooters exist. And if you did, I think that would be the wrong thing to do. Same goes for Open World games and Metroidvanias. Like I said in the video, they have a lot in common-and part of the reason the genre exists is because Symphony of the Night was an attempted Open World game. So clearly; there’s a lot of murkiness here. But I don’t think it’s impossible to sculpt into a more concrete shape as the medium grows with its critics. And sculping more concrete shapes is one of the goals of my video. It seems to me if we can use emotion to help add some clarity on this discussion, we’re much better off. Just as Horror films use dark, shadowy lighting; ominous music and characters; characterization for the characters we’re supposed to care about, etc., so too can games use their gameplay genres as a venue to communicate emotion. I think what you propose as a solution might be a good one. But it’s hard to know until seeing it in practice. I can’t make a determination on what genre that will fall under until seeing it in practice because quality of life decisions are going to be included as the game’s scale increases (just as there was a warp mechanic introduced in DS1 about 2/3s through the game (presumably for QoL reasons), I assume there will also need to be QoL mechanics introduced into what you propose simply because the maps are just gigantic). I think the crux of the disagreement that we’re having here is whether or not a Souls Game being a Metroidvania is a sufficient or necessary condition to convey the emotion we’re both able to agree is important. And I’ll happily agree that if an open world game can communicate the emotion I found meaningful in a Metroidvania, I’ll like it just as much as any Souls game (meaning I’ll happily concede that the genre is a sufficient condition to convey that emotion). But I would need to see that game to point to it. Until then, the larger argument I was trying to make was to say that if the devs understood the emotion they were communicating with the gameplay genre in Dark Souls, that same emotion shouldn’t have so easily fallen through the cracks like it did in Elden Ring. And that’s evaluating the game as it is. Not a potential pitch of the game that could theoretically make it communicate the emotion I crave. And until we see the actual version of an open world game that communicates the emotion we both agree should be communicated through the exploration, I think it’s fair to say: A Metroidvania did it before, and it could have done it again. And because that’s missing in Elden Ring, it’s also missing the emotion it once had. And this is what I argued here. Again, I’m fine to concede that Souls games being a Metroidvania can be a sufficient condition; and not a necessary one, to communicate emotion from exploration. But I wholly disagree that it’s futile to attempt to put more form to these amorphous shapes. The entire point of my channel is to use language to better define what works and doesn't. And I think most critics feel that way too.

[@Torchic960]

@@SolePorpoise I probably agree with what you said here more than I came off as, first off, just because something is for fools doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong. When I talk with my friends about this kind of such, I not only have the privileges of a back and forth that allows me to clarify points I'm making, reassess how I've presented information, and even change my opinion on the fly. As a presenter for an audience, you have no such luxuries and have to make compromises on all those fronts. To be an entertainer or an instructor *is* to wear the hat of the fool, and that's fine. If I were trying to present this kind of discussion I too would probably have to define terms and create boundaries like this just to create the vessel that would hold the discussion therein. So when I said I meant no disrespect I really did mean that sincerely. Part of my viewpoint is that the thing that matters is not the genre itself but the individual components that make it up. It's those individual mechanics that make your experiences what they are instead of the umbrella they fall under. I don't like talking about genres at large because when you boil it down, genres are used to compare things that are different. Using genre language creates expectations that are often false such as when people just call a game, oh that game is just [x game] but with [y difference] when in reality there may be an ocean of difference in experience between the two. I do admit that it is often just a necessity to have to describe things in these kinds of terms, unhappy with that fact though I am, but I would prefer to try to move away from them in the long term. That being said, this is a more fundamental difference in perspective and I can completely understand having a different opinion on the subject, because essentially this discrepency boils down to looking at things from the top down or bottom up, and I can't really tell you one is more correct than the other. I would say that at the core, the difference here is that my point shows that the genre lines aren't what matter, so much as the pieces that lead to the outcomes. As I see it, fundamentally your video is saying that the change in genre that elden ring goes through inherently removes possibilities that were previously possible, which is what you would be saying farewell to, and this is the point I would disagree with. We can still have all those same elements present in this new genre because again it's the parts that make up that whole, and how we choose to organize and qualify the groups those mechanics belong to isn't really what's important. If we made the changes to elden ring that I described, it doesn't mean it would become a metroidvania and give you a metroidvania experience, because as discussed those lines are blurry anyways and even at that two distinct metroidvanias can give you very different experiences anyways. My point isn't whether being a metroidvania is a necessary and/or sufficient condition, as it doesn't really even matter to me whether dark souls or elden ring, or jedi fallen order or mass effect qualifies as a metroidvania. It's the outcome and the steps that matters and not the lines we draw around the route we took to get there. I do have to admit I'm just very jaded towards people often getting wrong impressions and running away with them so I am pretty biased towards this kind of thing, but to me, the kind of perspective is like not seeing the trees for the forest. You can walk through a forest, but you can't walk through the trees, and it's the trees that you actually touch on your way to your destination. And I'm not saying that Elden ring itself didn't lack these qualities, because while I had a unique experience of opening the brazil chest immediately and getting stuck in caelid as a deprived that can't level up, which very much did capture the many of the types of emotions you discussed, but once I regained all the main tools that are offered to you as your progress, that possibility was forever gone. I wasn't trying to contest that elden ring lacks good use of these elements from earlier games, just that it might be too early to wave goodbye to something that could come back in future titles, because there is certainly still room for them. But yeah I do also have to admit that none of us have any idea what From will do next. Maybe they'll make another elden ring esque game that returns more of these kinds of elements. Maybe they make Elden Ring 2: Quest log boogaloo. Maybe they make a new shadow tower style game the same way sekiro spun off tenchu. Who knows. Maybe everything you're waving goodbye to is gone for good, but it also might not be, because there's plenty of room for smart design to bring it into the new world. But that aside, this could just boil down in the end to a fundamental difference of perspective on the idea of forms, and that's fine if we don't' see things the same way, because I can still value your opinion and the same reciprocated. I'd like to thank you again for your consideration, and if I came off as confrontational that wasn't my intention because I did just want to share a differing veiwpoint.

[@pondwithducks3092]

"there's no question this will become their default type of game" how do we even know that? they might do something totally different next

[@BillboBirsay]

Exactly.

[@MrFRNTIK]

Typical souls-tard video. Every game that comes out they act like that's all From will make and their perfect genre is ruined. We still have the old games and they hold up extremely well. I would hate for Miyazaki to make dark soul 4,5,6 etc and just rehash the same formula and story.

[@J0n4THANOS]

Yeah-Armored Core!!!! 😎

[@stufaos]

When you wrote that, I bet you weren't expecting a mech game lmao

[@clintbeasthood9758]

@@stufaos it doesn't matter if it's a mech game or the next Hello Kitty game. From Software is gonna kill it

[@Hello-lf1xs]

To be perfectly honest, when I played Dark Souls for the first time, I never really experienced the ‘classic Dark Souls difficulty’ or whatever - I didn’t fall into despair or something because of a boss. I just had looked up a LOT about the game before playing, so I wasn’t going in completely blind. I suspect a lot of the feelings about the emotions DS inflicts in people is from people remembering the first time they played, presumably near release when there wasn’t really any guides or anything. It’s just… I never really got truly crushed by a souls game, and ofc Souls games are usually only as hard as you make them (depending on how much you want to use of meta knowledge, summons, co-op, grinding for levels, etc). Inferno Plus called it ‘Player-modulated difficulty’, which I think fits really well. Any of the souls games can be vastly easier if you want them to be. Video: ‘Does Sekiro need an easy mode?’ Or something like that

[@xandre6036]

yeah that why sekiro is a goat

[@josetomascamposrobledano4618]

Said it yourself “looked up a lot about the game before playing”. Try to do that with other games and you’ll always get this result of games being easier. How easier depends on the game though. If you play souls and know all the farming areas, for levels and weapon upgrades. As well as shortcuts and the “correct path” then the game is a walk in the park. If you fight O&S with a +10 weapon they are kinda of a giant joke, when you hear stories of people fighting against them with level 0 weapons you feel bad for them. Is Nameless king a hard boss when you can tank 1-2 hits while some noob on first playtrough never leveled Hp past 20 because they never felt the need thanks to their estus healing HP to full against all other bosses? While that dude (iron pinnacle I believe) might feel smart saying “player modulated difficulty. The truth is knowledge is power, a term not exclusive for gaming. Just as knowing the glitch spots and hot spots on a multiplayer game give you an advantage. You could also give yourself an advantage in cooking by look at ways to refine your knife, or look at someone’s workout routing after said someone investigated multiple methods until he found the most efficient.

[@Hello-lf1xs]

@@josetomascamposrobledano4618 yeah, it’s just that a lot of people seem to assume that the only way anyone should play any souls game is just going in blind - which is fair but also going in completely blind can be kinda insane

[@josetomascamposrobledano4618]

@@Hello-lf1xs yes, so is playing Code Veronica and having to kill Alexia with a handgun because all the character switching made you leave the best items with the other character. Or getting a checkpoint somewhere insane on the mission save house on Cod4 veteran cause you didn’t check the houses that needed clearing in the best order.

[@WereScrib]

I'll be totally honest I thought Dark Souls was pretty unremarkable difficulty wise. Maybe its that I remember the interviews telling me it was 'a classic western style RPG" and my mind went to games like Betrayal at Krondor or Ultima. And then it played like a less kid-oriented Ocarina of Time. It was fun, simple, and pretty enjoyable. It still to this day feels easier than Majora's Mask, but that's probably my memory of playing Majora's as a child where it kicked my butt repeatedly. It's definitely easier than classic CRPGs like Betrayal at Krondor or Wizardry.

[@thedoughyboi]

HE LIVES!

[@lachsack3266]

I think that they were just focusing on different emotion in elden ring. They elevated the feeling of freedom and sense of wonder through the design of the world and gameplay. Instead of making the player stuck on a hard boss they encouraged him to roam the world which lets the player control his path more freely. I believe nearly all gamplay changes where done to evoke these emotions. And all these things make it feel like a heroic journey with the player charakter as the lord at the end.

[@Jumpinsnakes]

But the open world never felt like it had a strong narrative that I could engage with. Like I never really understood why everyone wanted to kill me except soft spoken npc's who I couldn't really talk to just get talked at. Why did all the giants want me dead? The world at first seems huge and mysterious but quickly that stays very surface level and we don't get to engage via gameplay with the worlds narrative. I just became a murder machine on a horse and while the joy of running into a camp of nordic looking guys and slaughtering them all or being sneaky about it, was fun for a few hours, doing those things never changed anything or had any consequences. The narrative revelations just seemed so few and far between that I resigned myself to the fact that I would have to decipher the narrative through the broken worlds architectural remains, not via its inhabitants or through gameplay/interaction.

[@iota-09]

@@Jumpinsnakes most people you fight are allied withshardbearers you're fighting(for example, the "northern looking guys" are hired swordsmen that work for godrick alongside his main trooops, and the giants most of the time are either alaves of said groups or free of them, which would make sense why they would want to fight anyone that looks human, but if that's not sufficient for you, then you should ask the same question about the ds1/3 giants. also i still don't get why people associate the overworld gameplay aloop to the legacy dungeon gameplay loop, they are completely different in both feel and goal as well as circumstances and mechanics, down to the absence of torrent.

[@Birthday888]

@@Jumpinsnakes ....? I thought it was pretty obvious why people wanted you dead. You're a Tarnished. You're goal/duty is to gather the Great Runes and become Elden Lord. You do this because the Elden Ring is shattered. Most of the intelligent enemies belong to a faction controlled by someone possessing a Great Rune. Thus, they have a vested interest in making sure you don't succeed.

[@Jumpinsnakes]

@@Birthday888 So me being a tarnished is obvious to everyone in this world? What marks me as a tarnished to everyone? I didn't pick up on that. I guess its assumed in this world that if you aren't with us i.e. we know you personally, you are against us and deserve to die? Would be interesting if I could dress like a faction and pretend to be apart of them and collect some info, but that would be to interactive for elden ring.

[@bdf2660]

@@Jumpinsnakes Its just lazy writing. Miyazaki has been putting out these hollow, lifeless, vague worlds since 2009 and people still eat it up. I see nothing wrong with what you're suggesting, ER was the game to add some huge factions and settlements with more open story telling and world building. Instead they chose to go with the "everything's either dead or half dead and the all want to kill you" thing.

[@seishinrosu]

I think you missed the mark on this video due to the fact that you missed the thematic of the original Dark Souls games and reducted them to a single genre category, which is in my honest opinion the same problem game critics/journalists have nowadays. You are reducting a game that is so unique that there is a sub-genre that originated from it (I still think this is extremely reductive for games that are inspired by Dark Souls too), just like the metroidvanias. Your critique is valid and you own your own opinion, but you are more part of the problem of "not criticizing the right thing and being sloppy" than you think you are. There are many issues with Elden Ring, but what you talked about here is (in my opinion) wrong, because like I said to many others, you criticized A as if it was B - In your case you reviewed Dark Souls as a Metroidvania, reducted Dark Souls into a metroidvania and then criticized Elden Ring because of your reductive conclusion of the previous games and how Elden Ring does not follow the same path. You don't criticize the Mona Lisa saying it doesn't look like Salvator Mundi and that Mona Lisa misses the mark in communicating religion, making it "Wrong" and that it "Doesn't have the spirit of Salvator Mundi". Dark Souls is not Elden Ring, and Elden Ring is not Dark Souls - Just because it comes from the same company and has the same combat system, doesn't mean that they want to make the same experience they developed on the previous games, point in case is Sekiro - Just like every one of Da Vinci's paintings have completely different messages that are not given justice by reducting it into just "Renaissance Painting". If we keep reducting things into a single term and then extrapolating that for our critiques, we will never going to be able to criticize things fairly and as art. You *need* to play Elden Ring with different perspective, the perspective that the game wants you to have of a land of heroes, warriors and gods that choose their own destinies and the battles they fight. You like metroidvanias, and Dark Souls is a game that has elements that are usually related to said sub-genre, but that does not mean it's objectively more "emotionally potent" than Elden Ring, that's what we call Bias. Just like you said, Elden Ring doesn't force you into a "route", but that's exactly what makes it resonate with it's thematic, since it's a story about a hero that brings down the gods and bring order to the world - Unlike Dark Souls, the themes of Elden Ring do *not* get enhanced by a linear path, because Dark Souls had only *one* route, regardless of how interconected it is. Elden Ring is about finding your own objective through all the places you *decide* to go to and explore, the lore you read, the characters you meet, the gods you fell, the dungeons you get through and the battles you experience, and that is enhanced by the fact that it *is* an open-world game - You might be a valiant knight that tackles things head on in the name of the golden order, just to uncover the truth about their attrocities on your journey and abandon your quest to one day serve them so you can burn down the world with the Frenzied Flame; You might be a scholar that finds yourself under the alure of the Primordial Current and it's enticing power during your journey, just to find it's true horrific nature, choosing to seal it away by increasing the Greater Will's influence to dispell it; You might be a cowardly thief that avoids every encounter from the fear of death, just to get forced into a situation that brings out a talent for combat that you never knew you had, and now you are much more confident to tackle things head on and march foward into becoming the new Elden Lord. The beauty of Elden Ring is that every journey will be completely different because you can choose *what role you play*, and criticizing it for not being a more linear and smaller experience like Dark Souls not only ignores the experience the developers tried to bring, but also ends up being disrespectful to the *art* of video games itself. There are things that one might never find in the game, just to play a new character and uncover the truth about Castle Mourne after months of not even visiting that place on their other adventures, or never finding out about the Dung Eater and it's vile and disgusting acts. On Elden Ring you *choose* the role you play on the world. On Dark Souls you are *chosen* the role you play on the world. None is more "correct" than the other, they are just different experiences, and just like you said, comparing both ends up not being productive, Elden Ring is Elden Ring, Dark Souls is Dark Souls. But either way, I find your video extremely well made and I hope you continue your work, even if I fundamentally disagree with the way you criticized the game. I'll be supporting you nonetheless! Cheers! Edit> (BTW Sorry if this reads a bit weirdly, english is not my first language)

[@bronsonmcleod1449]

Thank you

[@mysticalpugz4902]

This comment is exactly the feelings i felt about this video. He said in the video that a critics job is to look at how well a game accomplished the goals it set out to reach. But he then criticizes elden ring for not reaching the goals of dark souls which is a bit backwards.

[@seishinrosu]

@@mysticalpugz4902 Elden Ring is not a perfect game obviously and it has many stumbles that hold it back especially on some of it's dungeon crawling, difficulty curve, unclear game mechanics and other aspects, but what irks me is people reviewing it like it's Dark Souls 4 and completely ignoring the proposed experience that the game wants to give you for the sake of not accepting it's *not* another Dark Souls game.

[@bronsonmcleod1449]

@@tydendurler9574 No it's Dark Souls II 2 bro

[@seishinrosu]

@@tydendurler9574 "Elden Ring IS Dark Souls". First of all, don't you see how much of an oximoron this is? Not just on a semanthic level, but on a conceptual one - Elden Ring is fundamentally a different game that has the only similarity the combat mechanics and it's obtuse method of story telling. It would be as stupid as saying Bloodborne IS Dark Souls but on a Eldritch Horror setting and that it has a problem with build variety and that it forces you into only one playstyle - and therefore it fails as a Dark Souls game because it *isn't* a Dark Souls game. Again, *reviewing A as if it's supposed to be B and completely ignoring what is the experience the developer intended you to have.* If you are of the belief that Elden Ring is the same game as a Dark Souls 4 would be, I honestly don't think you have the capability of reviewing a game without bias and think you should reconsider your knowledge on game design and how the development of such are made. You say the game basically is Dark Souls 4 but open-world and say it has too many bosses based on what you think a *Dark Souls game* should be and unironically don't see a problem with that logic of thinking. Elden Ring =/= Dark Souls, if you think otherwise, you are actually just coping.

[@gabriellemos5565]

I also feel like the "difference between completion and exploration" is something the author invented, and I feel like a lot that he labels as simple completion when it comes to Elden Ring doesn't really ring that bell. Picking and choosing what I do in Elden Ring feels completely different from being driven by a quest marker in Horizon. Feels driven by player freedom or curiosity and very seldom leeds to actual significant game completion. Most of the time you feel the purest joy in finding piles of nothing but player messages pranking you.

[@soultakerkain]

How many time had you died in elden ring and like it ok I'll just farm back the runes? How many time have you fought a boss died several time gone some where else for and hour or two come back and killed it first try? How many areas are locked by a single way of unlocking (not counting glitching? How many time you go to an area and after hitting one enemy you like ok I shouldn't be here and can instantly go to a different EASIER AREA. He isn't wrong much of the risk and freedom to go map has been removed making it more about completion then exploration. Being driven by quest marker removes exploration completely and is the kind of hand hold I hope to never see in a soul game( But guess what site of grace point the way to significant areas and bosses don't they?)

[@NerdOracle]

@@soultakerkain you could try playing without the maps lmao

[@amysteriousviewer3772]

@@soultakerkain Sites of Grace are a suggestion. They are like a flag blowing in the wind or smoke rising from a fire. It’s not even remotely comparable to a GPS map marker that tells you exactly where you need to go and how many steps it will take to get there. It simply says “the main boss of the area is in this general direction. How you get there or if you even want to go there is up to you and who knows what you might find along the way”

[@soultakerkain]

@@amysteriousviewer3772 I like that fact. That is what make game refreshing, nothing is tired down and doesn't have the complete next task feel. I was pointing out part of game that encourages exploration vs some that would encourage completion. DS, BB and DB had punishing blind exploration and backtracking but that not completely possible in an open world setting. In dark soul if you hit a wall you hard to figure out how to get pass it but in elden ring you go else get stronger or better/different gear and come back.

[@Lkjhgf5482]

And if you ever want to make meaningful progress to complete the side quests that change the ending, you have to google them. This is a horrible quest design. There should at least be a quest log telling you who the major players are and what they want.

[@hendrikvandijk9434]

There is one thing I personally disagree with. Sure, the risk of getting stuck or having to backtrack can lead to a greater emotional investment in the game, but it can also quickly become tedious and frustrating. Its one of the reasons why i never picked up DS 1. The most fun exploring i had in a video game was in Limgrave, because I was never anxious and could just enjoy exploring and finding new things. Where Elden Ring fails a bit in my opinion are the latter areas, where all the ”new“ discoveries are just recycled bosses from previous areas and its more about completion than exploring.

[@lambdanebula8473]

Yea, I'm with you when it comes to priorities there. I'm not against a game being challenging, but if you're going to make an exploration game, it needs to allow you to enjoy the exploration. One of the worst things that has come from the popularization of souls games is the death penalty. It actively discourages you from exploring because you have to choose between doing what you enjoy and risking losing what you've earned so far. A game should always reward you for playing in the most fun way rather than punish you for it, or else it will quickly become tedious and frustrating. I 100% complete Hollow Knight, and while there was never a time I was ever unable to recover money I lost, it was still frustrating because now, instead of just going to the next place I want to go, I have to trek back to where I was to collect my money, and despite not losing anything other than patience and time, it was still a punishment for the crime of exploring in an exploration game. When I'm just annoyed at having to do something I don't want to do in order to eventually do what I enjoy, it completely kills the tension. Having the play repeat the same exact thing over and over with no reward, or worse, having them end up empty handed, is a sure fire way to ensure they aren't having fun.

[@jiffylou98]

Valid opinion, but also blighttown is the best area in all the souls games

[@jimmyj5703]

@@jiffylou98 Nah Tomb of the Giants is where it's at.

[@micmorgan84]

This idea works well in survival horror games but when you have to traverse large areas just to get your xp back or fight a boss that may kill you with one swing it’s annoying and ruins the experience.

[@Rid13y]

38:30 "it's so easy to yoink something in front of an enemy's face, it's practically incentivized" Yes, that's what "stealth mechanic" means. If you were intended to fight every enemy you came across, there would be a big door that doesn't unlock until you defeat all the enemies DMC style. The world is laid out in such a way to give the player options, which ties back to the risk/reward you were talking about earlier. Yes, you *can* sneak passed all the dangerous enemies to grab the chest, but A: there is no guarantee that what's in the chest will be worth it for your build, B: if you do sneak passed most enemies you see, then you are denying yourself the crucial Runes you need in order to get stronger for the bosses that you can't sneak passed, and *C:* there is ALWAYS a non-zero chance that an enemy will see you and alert other enemies, that risk is always there. Saying that you're "skipping content" by using a mechanic the way it's intended is so disingenuous that it hurts. Not everyone plays games the same way. Where one person might want to hack and slash their way through Caelid like a one man army, another person might want to move more strategically, aggro-ing as few enemies as possible. Neither person is playing the game wrong or in a way that isn't intended. And sure, the emotions each approach invoke are different from each other as well as different from previous FS games, but those feelings are still just as valid. To say this is what makes Elden Ring a downgrade from previous FS games is like saying OoT is a downgrade from previous Zelda games because it offers a different experience.

[@dylanschmeichel2008]

But in an open world setting within a combat game why even respect the content and fight enemies then? Sekiro had stealth that worked due to level design, but in an open world with classic souls combat then it just makes no enemy worth fighting. thats why its a downgrade, it takes one half of the souls formula and removes the other which in turn makes the other worse without its much needed counterpart.

[@slothhq1929]

elden ring has a probelm of most loot kinda sucking. and killing enemies is basically disincentiviced. they have very few good drops they drop very few runes. and they tend to ot block your path since you can jump around them with torent. this is a huge probelm no matter how u slice it.

[@swordierre9341]

He wasn't referring to the sneak system. He was talking about torrent. You could literally run past everyone in torrent and run away. It was very unsatisfying.

[@felipetartas5434]

In fact, dont even requires stealth. Just use you invulnerability frames in animations to pick up items.

[@derpi3438]

Open-ended gameplay. Some sections I went in traditionally swinging my weapons, others I crouched and slowly walked through the bushes or around the main path, praying that the enemies don't see me. You approach situations however way you want or deem most suitable for the area and it isn't really refined, but it's a good balance and makes it enjoyable in different ways

[@NickKarm]

That idea of the interlocking genres of gameplay and narrative is incredible. This has got to be one of the best video essays I've ever seen! Keep it up!

[@MrQuaazga]

I appreciate your time giving us this video game lecture. If I think I will like a game, I buy it and play it for enjoyment. I don't want a game frustrating the hell out of me. I like the part where you have the layout of a game, the way it will move. The movement of the game is what I look for today. Because you spelled out a lot of a games' mechanics--I want to play a Soul's game, and I want more Metroid games. Thanks!

[@brandonshelp4682]

The issue with most open worlds is the feeling of a theme park. Go here, do this activity.

[@austin0_bandit05]

Just curious. Whats your alternative to this?

[@brandonshelp4682]

@@austin0_bandit05 well that's what Elden ring does better than most. No hand holding, no safety rail. You are set free to explore with a vague goal. Even then, Dark Souls 3 is a much tighter experience, and DS1 is a masterpiece of level design. Overall, open world is best for true exploration and emergent gameplay, which can be very difficult to design. I think the most important thing companies can ask themselves is why open world, amd what are you accomplishing with that tool.

[@kalsizzle]

I recently played Super Metroid and its insane how much the world and exploration mattered.

[@bpdmf2798]

One of the best games ever created. And at the time it was just a gem of a game. SNES had some fantastic games.

[@borzoilover4156]

Thats wat hollow knight was like inspired alot by right

[@kalsizzle]

@@borzoilover4156 probably I still need to play hollow knight

[@borzoilover4156]

@@kalsizzle ah right i like it alot its a good game its quite fair throughout but it isnt as hard consistently as games from fromsoft or capcom if ur looking for a harder game but it does have its difficult areas but that was just my experience with it plus a difficulty doesnt define a game anyway lol

[@borzoilover4156]

Hollow knights music is also CLEAR of anything in elden ring or dark souls

[@DonutSwordsman]

@26:00 i agree on this about item management in dark souls, but i wanted to add its interesting because it still has that with limited items that can make fights easier like divine blessing. It takes the resident evil/final fantasy elixers idea and uses it for your survival in dark souls.

[@SoralaxPlays]

Long-time Soulsborne fan here. I'll be honest - Elden Ring is easily one of my top 3 favorite games of all time, and I bristled a bit at the topic of this video when I first started it. I loved your videos on Bloodborne, though, so I decided to hear you out and give the video a shot. It is difficult to express exactly how many unspoken feelings you hit square on the head for me throughout this discussion. I adore Elden Ring with all my heart, and it has some of the highest highs of all the Soulsborne series. For a time while I was playing it, I genuinely thought it had beaten out Bloodborne as my favorite game of all time - but when I went to replay it, something felt bizarrely off. I couldn't put my finger on exactly what it was, but something was holding me back from enjoying it quite as much as I did that first time around. It was strange because I've replayed every Souls game at least once (literal dozens of times for DS1), and I've almost felt that subsequent playthroughs are where the games truly shine, giving the player the ability to dance through the world's challenges with newfound expertise that enhances the experience tenfold. However, going back to Elden Ring was different. It felt less fulfilling, and - bizarrely - almost exhausting. What you've said here made everything click for me. The previous games in the series have an unmatched air of replayability because they are, fundamentally, Metroidvanias - games which thrive on learning pathways, sequence-breaking, testing skill, speedrunning, and - overall - attaining mastery. Elden Ring, however, is an Open World game - a game which exists to be explored over a massive period of time, painstakingly and with great care. Trying to blitz through Elden Ring fighting all my favorite bosses like I do with the other games in the series is a recipe for burnout, no matter how much I adore them. The game isn't built to accommodate that playstyle. Thank you for giving me the language to finally put into words what's been bothering me about this game. Again, I adore it with all my heart - that much is beyond question. However, there's been something that's been holding me back from blitzing my way back to Malenia, and I think this may be it.

[@Rammstein53452]

Elden Ring would have benefited greatly from limited warp points. Think of the Sheika towers in Breath of The Wild. They warp you to a specific region rather than multiple points in a region. Imagine this. You go into a legacy dungeon, but realize it's too much to handle for you at this point. You can't warp while in a legacy dungeon, so you have to crawl your way out backwards. You do some other stuff, better prepare and come back. Instead of letting the player warp into the legacy dungeon bonfires, which breaks immersion imo, the game would only let you warp to the entrance of the dungeon. Which means you have to go through the whole thing again if you decide you need to back out. And only once the main boss is defeated will you be able to warp to any bonfire in the dungeon. This would retain the same tension and sense of adventure that DS1 and BOTW had while not removing fast travel entirely. I'm frustrated this is not a feature.

[@zbmccarter]

If you think there are too many warp points, only use the ones you think should be there, and ignore the rest. That way you get what you want, and people who want to play the game as intended can also do so. Problem solved. You're welcome...

[@Rammstein53452]

@@zbmccarterWould be a good idea for a mod, doesn't work so well as an idea I had 80% through a playthrough. But thanks for the smug attitude.

[@zbmccarter]

@@Rammstein53452 didn't mean to be smug, I actually think a mod with fewer warp points might be cool. I was just pointing out that people who feel like their are too many warp points can choose not to use all of them, but if someone DOES enjoy the game having many warp points and the developers take them out (or start placing fewer in future titles to appease the anti warpers out there), then those players will no longer enjoy the game(s) as much. With too many warp points everyone can still play the way they want and be happy, with too few warp points, the people who appreciate all the warp points get the shaft. More warp points=both sides happy. Fewer warp points= only one side happy.That's all I'm saying...

[@Rammstein53452]

@@zbmccarter My bad dude, I completely misread your tone. Yeah that's a fair point and I agree it would logically make most sense. Although I think it's still far from ideal because I would have to actively work against the game's design to enjoy what I think is a better feature. This argument technically would also advocate for DS1 to have warp points from the beginning since it would please both type of players on paper. I have a lot of experience self imposing mechanics in games that are missing them, such as perma death or realistic reloading, and it really isn't the same unfortunately. So ultimately I would disagree but I don't think it's a huge deal, just a feeling I miss a lot from DS1

[@zbmccarter]

@@Rammstein53452 well, the bonfire system in dark souls made sense for that game. Usually you could open up shortcuts so that you could get back to the boss quickly without having to fight every enemy on the way. Still, quite a few of the runs were annoyingly long and tedious (like the run to seath, or the bed of chaos (even with the closest, kind of hiddenish bonfire)). My problem with those runs is that they aren't particularly challenging, they are just a pain in the arse/ time waster. The boss fights are challenging/ interesting enough that I don't think it's necessary to have a 5 minute hike everytime you miss-time a dodge and get your dome split. Don't get me wrong, I have beaten every from soft "souls like" since King's Field (us) (didn't play shadow tower or the PS2 kings field), and I always make sure to slay every boss and leave no stone unturned (so I have done a lot of tedious boss runs in my day, haha). I do think it adds tension to have the save points so far from bosses, but I much prefer the more abundant bonfires in DS2, 3, and elden ring to the longer boss runs in demons souls, ds1, Bloodborne. I don't think it adds enough to the experience to be worth it. Elden ring also features some of the most difficult bosses in the soulsborne series, and because of the sheer size of the game (which is amazing), it would probably take waaaaaaay too long to beat if you had to do 10 minute runs every time you died (imagine having to fight all the way back to malenia every time she wrecked you with her hurricanader of death move). I think the longer boss runs worked well with shorter, more linear games like demons souls/ ds1/ and bloodborne, but for the longer, more expansive games like DS2 and elden rang, I think the shorter boss runs make much more sense, and also allow players more freedom to explore the world...

[@shankypanky8879]

The praises for Jedi Fallen Order in this context make no sense. Jedi Fallen Order is still very linear. Yes, there is an illusion of going anywhere, but nearly every planet's major area is blocked by an obstacle that you can only access if you get a specific major power(Metroidvania until this point). BUT you only get those major powers in a linear order and ONLY IF you stick to the place the game is explicitly telling you to go to. You can't gain a major power to unlock a path through exploration at all. Cal 'remembers' these powers in a linear order by sticking to the linear path and hitting a certain story beat and cutscene. You stick to a linear path and every player gets every power in that game. After gaining these powers you can access some optional areas but most of rewards in Fallen Order are ponchos and other cosmetic stuff that are just a pathetic reward to explore every corner of that game. Fallen Order is a VERY good game but praising it for what it's not takes away the validity of the points you are trying to make!

[@user-bk9cp9xn3l]

You are not comparing Elden Ring to the Souls games, you are comparing it to the first half of Dark Souls. DS1 2nd half, 2 and 3 had the warp mechanic already, so you would not get stuck.

[@lucasimmons075]

Tbf the first half of Dark Souls (up to the lordvessel) is as perfect as games get

[@chef_boysauce4399]

That’s not what it was for. That was a Quality of Life mechanic. You can’t get stuck at any point. It was just to not annoy the player by making them walk all the way out of Anor Londo and then to wherever they wanted to go next. In fact, the only time you can get ‘stuck’ is after getting the Lordvessel. You can get locked in the Duke’s Archive and warp gets disabled.

[@alekseischafer4287]

Thank you for this essay, I'm examining my own experiences and see this us a good method for categorizing games and their core attractions, I'll keep this in mind whenever I try new games.

[@startrekmike]

One of the things that really stuck out to me when I played Jedi: Fallen Order (both times) is that while it certainly ticks all the boxes of a Metroidvania with obvious Souls game influence, it doesn't really do much to truly connect those gameplay elements to the narrative it is trying to tell and especially not to the larger goal of being a Star Wars video game experience. There are specific parts of the game where it feels more like a Star Wars game (Bracca, Ilum, and the Fortress Inquisitorius), there are far more where it feels like a pretty "paint by numbers" Metroidvania/Souls game. So many of the puzzles and even some enemy encounters have a overly convoluted and "gamey" feel that actively contradict the general Star Wars feel it wants to capture. So much of the game made me think "Oh, this is the Metroidvania thing but with a thin Star Wars coat of paint" or "Oh, this is that thing they put in to grab the Soulsbourne game fans with only a faint whiff of Star Wars coming off of it". Jedi: Fallen Order feels very much like a game designed to specifically appeal to gameplay/mechanics focused Metroidvania/Souls game fans but it doesn't really do a whole lot to actually satiate those who want something that mechanically and narratively really makes use of Star Wars as a property. It has moments but moments don't really do much when the vast majority of the game does absolutely nothing with the themes, narrative styles, or tone of Star Wars as a franchise.

[@WannabeCanadianDev]

Interesting as I thought Fallen Order was probably one of the most "true to the feeling of Star Wars" media properties to have come out recently; it to me, felt like it actually helped to expand upon the Star Wars universe making it feel like this larger than life setting. Something that the nu-trilogy failed at conveying for me as it seemed to cannibalize the iconography of the previous works to sell nostalgia without coming up with anything ambitious to justify its supposed scope.

[@startrekmike]

@@WannabeCanadianDev Don't get me wrong. It has the look of Star Wars, the sound of Star Wars, and in very, very specific portions of the game, it even has the feel of Star Wars. It is just that for much of the game, it doesn't really flow like Star Wars. It has the graphics, sound effects, and music but it didn't have the overall narrative format that makes Star Wars what it is. It didn't really put a lot of effort into really putting the player into a immersive Star Wars experience. For some context. I have been a big fan of Star Wars games for a VERY long time and I have yet to see a game that really captures Star Wars as a overall experience as well as the older Dark Forces/Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight games and the old X-Wing, Tie-Fighter, and (especially) X-Wing Alliance games. In all of those, the focus was on pulling elements from other games and finding ways to make them feel distinctly Star Wars. To put it another way. When I played Dark Forces 1, I didn't think "Hey, this is just Doom with a Star Wars coat of paint!", it was obvious the developers did everything they could to take those first person shooter elements and give them a clear Star Wars flavor. Nothing felt like a overtly generic genre trope in the same way that many of Jedi: Fallen Order's elements did. If the whole game had been more like the very beginning or the very end (and perhaps the Ilum sequence where he is trying to get the Kyber crystal), it would have been a great Star Wars game. It would have really nailed that purpose built Star Wars feeling. Sadly, it didn't really do that. Much of the game feels more focused on hitting popular genre trends without really asking if those genre trends will all serve to make it a good, immersive Star Wars experience.

[@filmwiebe1703]

I feel like its important to add to this discussion that Fallen Order isn't just a Metroid-vania. On my playthrough, it felt like it grabbed a lot of different gameplay genres and mixed it all in a pot to make a pastiche of this last decade of games. It has the Uncharted set-pieces, the (simplest) Zelda Puzzles, forgiving platforming a la Tomb Raider, and on top of that the Souls-like respawn and combat systems. I love all these influences individually, but they really don't mesh together as well as they could. The combat is great! But it feels out of place next to the platforming that lets you fall 5 times (though the risk of falling is losing HP, but it's so small that it largely doesn't matter unless you are on Grand Master, but on that difficulty a lot of cracks in the design start to show). The puzzles suck because they are simply short and uninteresting, as well as few and far between. The story really works with the Metroid-vania style, but the cut-scene narrative pushes you to stay on a direct path for a long time (and returning to the Mantis to explore other worlds is often more tedious than finishing the planet/stage and getting the fast-travel option back to the mantis.). It's a game that seems to do everything it can to undercut what makes the metroid-vania style work. (I also feel like it's worth stating that many of the planets have so little to do once you finish the main story associated with them. There might be 2 or 3 "locks" per world, but they rarely (in all but 2 cases) unlock a larger area worth exploring. Usually it ends in a fight or a chest that gives either a med-kit bonus (though you'd be forgiven if you didn't know those existed since the first one you see is locked behind a BD unit upgrade) or a cosmetic. The Force/HP upgrades are a classic part of any metroidvania, but they are elevated to an end path collectable instead of a side piece along an optional path that makes them feel really... meh. Fallen Order is a really weird game, and I frankly found the emotion in it to be lessened because of it's narrative structure which hemmed in players on planets and had simple rewards that often seemed far to easy to get. TL;DR Fallen Order isn't just a metroid-vania, and that heavily weakens its emotional pull to me.

[@CarlMakesVideos]

I think I get what you're saying, but I don't think ER is the end of "traditional", non-open-world soulslikes. It's likely the end of them from Fromsoft (barring the inevitable ER DLC being a relatively linear affair in a cordoned off portion of the game that it locks you into once you begin, essentially being a mini-souls game with the character you built in the open world), but there've been enough imitators that it's a subgenre within Metroidvanias; smaller developers will definitely keep making games that hearken back to the souls games, and hopefully when they do they keep the gameplay and narative as cohesive as you describe.

[@bpdmf2798]

Man. I remember renting Symphony of the Night from a local no name video rental place when i was in like 7th grade. I was so impressed with the realistic graphics (yeah, they were great back then), especially the cape physics when you went up and down on the elevator in the library.

[@TheSnoringGamer]

Great video. It feels strange just being suggested this and it turned out to be something I have on my mind at the moment. I've been replaying elden ring, but I booted up DS3 the other day to continue a save, and I was at the start of Irythll dungeon of all places. I could not believe how hostile and oppressive it felt compared to elden ring I'd just been playing. The layout + jailer mechanic made it such a stressful experience I basically sprinted to the next bonfire much like you get used to running past enemies in ER. Even the more linear dungeons in elden ring don't come close to the pressure felt in souls, most likely because you just end up overlevelled most of the time. Plus like you mention, a lot of the time you can grab your souls and teleport out, in souls you were usually so deep in the dungeon that once you got your souls you had to continue on. So I definitely agree, ER does not convey the same emotions as souls at all. DS3 feels dark from beginning to end, ER still has dark lore like spreading scarlet rot and the deaths of basically everyone you try and help, but the emotional potency is much diminished. But with that, the open world granted more of a sense of wonder, and the lack of pressure gives it an approachability (in both gameplay difficulty and stress levels) that souls games don't have. P.s. your background music is a touch too loud imo

[@harrisongoudappel2942]

The beauty of an open world game such as Elden Ring is the ability to play it exactly as you want to. Personally I treated my first run like a dark souls game, I didn’t abandon areas if I found them too hard, killed nearly every enemy before progressing and only abandoned it if I deemed it truly too hard i.e a waste of time to spend hours throwing myself at with 0 results (for example I fought Margit early and it took me quite a very many attempts but I kept going until I beat rather than grind and come back when he didn’t 2-3 shot me). So basically what you’re telling me is you CHOSE to play elden ring in the way you are complaining about because that option was available to you. I think it is very human to not do things unless you are forced to and that is a big thing that separates Elden Ring from its SoulsBourne predecessors however understanding that Elden Ring is an open world game and being forced to do things in an open world game without the freedom of coming back whenever would mean that it quite simply just isn’t a good open world game. I could be way off the mark assuming you played the game this way but contextually it comes across that way. Overall I liked this video and completely agree as to why this is a “goodbye”. The game was a massive success and I doubt they won’t try to continue on this path.

[@thefabulouskitten7204]

I feel very similarly. The game let's you choose how to go about playing it. This is my first soulslike and I've been playing it as you described. I could see how people might just choose to cheese the enemies and run away, but the fact that the choice is there isn't a bad thing. The game is all about choices. It's a fundamental part of the story, what path you choose to follow, what kind of Elden Lord will you be? The numerous endings really drive that home imo

[@ennayanne]

ah yes because souls never let you play how you wanted to until they added a giant amount of space between all the interesting things

[@harrisongoudappel2942]

​@@ennayanne within the confines of the game yes ofc it allowed you to play the game how you wanted but it was still linear. Just think ds3 's Gundyr for first timers in comparison to Margit albeit most would agree Margit is harder, you can fight 20+ other bosses and explore multiple caves and catacombs before actually having to fight him where as you have to fight Gundyr straight away. You can replace Gundyr with Vordt and this still applies.

[@ennayanne]

@@harrisongoudappel2942 Yes, good comparison. In DS3 you are immediately presented with a boss and a skill check and lead straight away into a directed experience. In elden ring, you have literally infinite choices as you can go in any direction you want, find whatever bosses you like. The problem is that just because you have choices doesn't mean they are meaningful ones. You can take on like 20+ bosses, sure. But how many of them are actually interesting fights? In contrast, let's look at DS1. As soon as you step foot in Lordran you have immediate access to taurus demon, pinwheel, sif, butterfly, quelaag and maybe even more I'm forgetting, as opposed to erdtree avatar #25 and crucible knight #6. There might not be as many choices as you get in elden ring, but I'd argue they're far more meaningful ones.

[@ennayanne]

@@harrisongoudappel2942 I never said DS3 wasn't linear? I don't think it's a problem that it's linear, it results in a far more refined experience. DS1 isn't linear and it still benefits from being directed and hand crafted.

[@MugenLord]

I'm not into souls games but I bought Elden Ring and couldn't hang in there. I have to say that I enjoyed this video, you broke down the genre in a way I never thought about. Great job, subscribed!

[@user-ey8bh8cd5r]

That’s unfortunate. But I bet you’ve got your own Elden Ring in another genre, no?

[@soundaholixx]

It's always possible to come back with a sharp mind and clear will, you can do it too.

[@MsCunningLinguistic]

I've never watched a video of yours, and the thumbnail made me deeply skeptical that this would just be another "Elden Ring BAD akshully", but I'm delighted to see I was wrong. This is a thoughtful and fascinating essay, and it's really cleared up some things for me. Because I LOVE Elden Ring, SO MUCH, and I don't generally enjoy Soulsborne games OR metroidvania games. The uncertainty, the backtracking, the sense of risk, these are all deeply unpleasant sensations for me. I don't LIKE it. This isn't a criticism of the genre, it's a fundamental incompatibility between those games and me - and Elden Ring never gave me that feeling. As someone who favors sprawling open-world RPGs in the vein of Mass Effect and Dragon Age, Elden Ring instills in me that same sense of wonder and completion, while ALSO forcing me JUST ENOUGH out of my comfort zone (with the combat, and the bosses, for a player who exclusively plays other games on easy mode) that I get a real sense of accomplishment and novelty from playing. And now I understand much better just why I feel that way. Thank you. I'm excited to check out your KZbin catalogue. *tips-hat gesture*

[@MsCunningLinguistic]

@UCxEdSVpoYYopSKanQUasroQ oh, sorry! I think you've confused me with someone who cares about why you don't like Elden Ring 🤗

[@JosiahTaschuk]

No where else have I heard someone share such a clear and well articulated perspective. You don't rehash 'opinion', instead you objectively break down changes in game play that simple ARE differences. Great essay!

[@CraigJS91]

I wouldn't assume that every soulsborne game is going to be open world from now on. Let's remember who is making these games. Everyone shat their collective pants when bloodborne removed shields, everyone freaked out when Sekiro went with a more narrative driven story, and now there are people concerned that the open world of Elden Ring might kill the tight interconnected maps we loved from the souls series. Miyazaki has earned my undying loyalty and trust by cranking out not only amazing, but new and fresh experience over and over again.

[@blicleak1101]

Exactly

[@Deathroll1988]

Good reply. I don’t think there is a more talented developer out there, not only have they not implemented any microtransaction (they could have easily did it, fashionsouls would have sold a dumptruck) , no seasonpass, no cut content or day1 dlc. Also I don’t think any other devs could have made so many different games off of one ideea..and good games at that. Can’t wait for the mech game they are making, even if I never played any in the series.

[@DNE2012]

I find the problem with open world games is they 1000 different ways to get to the same location, 2D games have very well defined paths, sometimes multiple with secret paths, that's the joy of exploration, watching how the map unfolds, its great game design when levels snake back through an older area but you enter through a new door, it really helps the player orientate themselves in the map and gives them a sense of accomplishment. Metroid prime series was excellent as this design for a 1st person perspective, sandbox maps are way better than open worlds and far less overwhelming too.

[@leopluerodong4244]

I've never felt more pressure from going deeper than I did in Blightown in DS1. Campfire was hard af to get to at 5fps

[@TheAlison1456]

41:30 I appreciate these concise well-written points showing up from time to time to reinforce what you're currently saying, usually text is used for additional information which can get overwhelming I also really loved how you specified the role of your critique at the end, that's SO refreshing. It's usually always unclear, and interpretations are often negative.

[@DarthWall275]

ER works as a Swan song for the Soulsbourne series, I just hope in future From Software retire this genre and shift their priorities elsewhere, like to an overdue Sekiro sequel, a reboot of the Tenchu series, or maybe even a completely new IP.

[@Pelayum]

Supposedly their next game is Armored Core

[@takanabanana]

I dont understand why people think every fromsoft game is going to be open world elden ring from now on. They add and subtract elements all the time. Sekiro was a single player game. Bloodborne was a new ip, and then they went back to dark souls. Hell, apparently their next game is some mech thing

[@utisti4976]

Have you not heard of Armored Core? It's all they've made until Dark Souls came out.

[@takanabanana]

Yeah, what about it

[@CarrotConsumer]

Money. That's why.

[@Zweckmeister]

i had this thought in my head for so long now that DS1 just fells different than DS2, DS3 or elden ring and you finally gave me the words to articulate that

[@MelissaAtwell]

I enjoyed your insightful video! Thank you for making this. I haven’t yet jumped into the Souls games nor Elden Ring, but I’m a huge fan of Metroidvanias, and Resident Evil (among many others), and that’s been on my mind lately. Having this video recommended to me was perfect timing. Thanks again!

[@curts7801]

I’d wager the open world and torrent aren’t the “problems”. The sensation you’re looking for would be granted by the removal of fast travel. To elaborate, the only thing stopping Caelid and Haligtree from being like the catacombs and New Londo (aside from optionality) is the ability to warp out & warp back in. Removing fast travel would make the decision to explore somewhere a serious commitment with risk. It would also make the decision to abandon or clear caves and dungeons more severe. It makes any landmark, any direction, a proverbial hallway. It also makes the disparate sites of grace that much more meaningful. It also makes each reward, each find, that much more valuable. Torrent is a necessity. The world is just too large. He isn’t even always a safety lever either. The ancestors with their mega snipe laser arrows, or the crows and bears with their asinine speed, or ye olde sniper lobsters or teleporting revenants, all put on pressure beyond what Torrent can relieve. You couldn’t make Elden Ring enjoyable for many, or even the core, by wiping out both conveniences. Players need to actually be able to reach the far corners of the earth to actually experience the game somehow. Admittedly I don’t enjoy Dark Souls 1 more than Dark Souls 3. The fatigue of clawing your way out was very real, and it was very critical that From put in tools like shortcuts and later the Lord Vessel to alleviate it. I might have quit DS if there wasn’t the back exit for Blighttown. Or the Lord Vessel for the catacombs.

[@zeppie_]

Great video! The distinction between narrative and gameplay genre really opened my mind on how game genres are defined and made me aware that the gameplay genre isn’t just about a checklist of mechanics, but about how the gameplay makes the player feel. As an artist I feel like I’ve been told this over and over (i.e don’t look at individual aspects, look at how they coincide to make the viewer/player feel), I’ve just never thought to apply that logic to game genres until now I think that the main criticisms you gave Elden Ring would be (at least partly) abbreviated if fast travel was more limited, like perhaps only to and from divine towers, with boss sites being a one-way out. Instead of finding something and deciding you’ll just go there later by fast travel, it becomes a trade-off between exploring that area now or risk having to travel all the way back again. Choosing a path to go down is more of a choice when the way back is restricted, and gives more value to wherever the player is at that moment if it was a long road to get there

[@zbmccarter]

I don't understand why people who think there are "too many bonfires" choose to bitch about it, instead of just not using the ones they don't want to use. That way everybody's happy. If you really want to ramp up them challenge, you can even play wearing a blindfold while using the controller with your feet... There is no reason to complain about a feature in a game that the player can choose not to use and still beat the game...

[@ryoji4200]

Spanish youtuber Muzska89 made a very similar critique of the "open world game design" when reviewing The Witcher 3 years ago, comparing it with Dark Souls and Bloondborne. He was very adamant in his point that, for the narrative, Souls games tended to feel more authentic due to the gameplay not contradicting the themes of the story as often as open world games did. I belive you have improved on that point of view. Cheers.

[@LOSTmyHOST]

This video remind me how the games Monster hunter lost their essence, before they were hunting simulators now they felt like hack'n slash bosses.

[@franklourandes6794]

Return of the king! Keep it up man

[@hollowednight5290]

I definitely feel the same way. Darksouls 3 was my entrance into the series and it was that first experience which changed my life. Never had I played a game that tested patience, skill and curiosity. The ebb and flow of its gameplay was hypnotic with each fight and nothing ever really felt unfair. Moving onto Elden Ring, that sense of a hypnotic gameplay where one can’t leave the chair is somewhat lost. Don’t get me wrong, I love the exploration and the climatic boss fights. Those are genuinely awesome as hell. The problem comes from the bosses that aren’t fun to fight. The ones that only certain builds can make easy. I still love both games and I’ll live and die preaching their awesomeness, I just hope that the next installment provides more of the aspects of the original Darksouls series that started it all.

[@blu3tan]

agree with u 100% great video. I love ER I'm 190h and loving it but is a different emotion as you said, instead I felt the same dread of DS 1,2,3 while playing hollow knight. Elden Ring felt so forgiving, dying is no big deal, the same as loosing souls

[@joshuaschreiber5346]

A lot of the time when I play a game I don't know exactly why I enjoy or dislike it. I have assumptions why but they tend to mislead me a lot. You have a way of explaining connections or mechanics or designs that help me understand why I enjoy or dislike certain things. And I believe this insight in turn gives me greater appreciation and in the end more fun out of a lot of games. Thank you.

[@WolfRengare]

I kind of feel like the move to the game being Open World was actually more harmonious with the lore and story they had planned than if they tried to do the same thing with a more traditional souls style. I can recall a multitude of moving parts and factions that allowed me to feel the immensity of it as I pressed my way through the world. What may have been a single item description carrying the backstory of a character in Souls was instead carried by new environments. The way the open world space was used crafted a very different story that I felt was supported by its gameplay, but difficult to discern because of how much Elden Ring will remind me of Dark Souls. Similar, yet entirely distinct. I definitely agree that the exploration as a mechanic was massively shifted from what it once was, and I'm under the impression that From knew it, too. Since Margit was there for the purposes of spurning the player's "ambitious" advancement for the sake of new tools and greater power, teaching us that we need to interact with this game differently from Souls titles. Thank you for the video, though. I couldn't quite nail down some of the reasons why I didnt quite feel the same tension and sense of accomplishment as other Souls games had. Knew it had to be the genre shift, but didn't quite grasp the exploration side being that different. I appreciate the insight!

[@greylithwolf]

It just occurred to me that so many souls-like games are attempting to capture the gameplay of Dark Souls without the bad feelings Souls games illicit, such as loneliness and despair. They fail to realize that the feelings of loneliness and despair are absolutely essential to the Souls experience.

[@Zockanumber1]

Agreed. Those developers don't seem to understand that the gameplay, atmosphere and narrative of the Souls Games are all intertwined

[@seishinrosu]

But Elden Ring is not Dark Souls. Elden Ring is about a land of heroes that choose their own destinies, reducting every from software into "Souls" is not only unproductive, but don't do their games justice, and that is even more apparent when people reduce other games into "soulslike". Dark Souls is Dark Souls, Elden Ring is Elden Ring. If we keep reviewing A as if it is supposed to be B or AB, we will never be able to fully see video games as art.

[@elpsykoongro5379]

@@seishinrosu Chill

[@seishinrosu]

@@elpsykoongro5379 ? tf you on about

[@spookzer16]

@@elpsykoongro5379 I know right? How dare Landlos voice an opinion!

[@tomk6292]

A well designed ‘closed world’ can still gives you options and the sense of exploration, the Metro, Bioshock and of course the Souls games come to mind

[@lbpiercy]

We finish Elden ring this weekend or next. I need a PS4/5 with 3 or 4 player coop. We did outriders, borderlands and Divinity original sin 2 before Elden Ring. Any feedback in what we should play next? We might be able to play on PC x 3 or 4 if its a really good game but we all have PS4s or 5s.

[@brentramsten249]

37:30 there is actually one dungeon that has no way about out, and i was pretty surprised when i found it. it wasnt a trivial dungeon, definitely something you could easily horse to right off the bat. pretty much the only sense of lenience was that you didnt have to beat the boss to leave.

[@rznmsc5495]

I have yet to encounter such dungeon, are you sure there wasn’t a hidden wall, mechanic, or boss that you missed? Or have I completely missed the dungeon?

[@brentramsten249]

@@rznmsc5495 its in caelid, its a mining area, and i think the wyrm boss of the area drops moonveil, but i could be wrong about that last one. also alexander shows up at the end if youve progressed his questline already

[@ianvance1647]

@@brentramsten249 Gael Tunnel. You can sprint through to the other side, but yes, you are stuck there until you get out.

[@wookiewaffles1503]

there's another one where you get trapped in a series of repeating but slightly different rooms and navigate them through trap chests

[@xelith6157]

@@brentramsten249 The entrance for that mine is very close by, I was just dumb my first time and went the opposite way.

[@haugumm]

I doubt any game with ds1's first half will ever be greenlit again, sadly. The intensity and thoughtfulness needed on your first play through is just an unforgettable gaming experience. Good video.

[@harrygarris6921]

Of course it will, and I'm not sure what you mean by "greenlit". Not every game release it made by a triple A studio that have to make sacrifices in game design because they're beholden to shareholders. Smaller independent studios don't have to worry about such things. And the majority of games that come out these days are actually indie titles.

[@MrDudesMcgee]

@@harrygarris6921 there’s a whole genre of games that are based on dark souls first half (side note, the second half is actually pretty bad in my opinion).

[@harrygarris6921]

@@MrDudesMcgee Yeah I just played through one that was pretty good called Ashen. And yeah I agree the second half of DS1 is pretty bad. Which is why although it's still one of my favorite games of all time I've never understood why so many people regard it as some kind of flawless masterpiece. I've never played halfway through and then reflected on how good the game is, I've always played the entire thing.

[@ennayanne]

​@@harrygarris6921Nobody says it's flawless. In fact the line people constantly bring up whenever ds1 comes up is that it's a flawed masterpiece.

[@harrygarris6921]

@@ennayanne yeah but maybe they understate the flaws a bit. Like dark souls 2 and 3 are more complete and better fleshed out games, but most people like ds1 the most.

[@bwillsskates2638]

on ng+ rn and I’m having so much fun. I’ve been playing ER for months. won’t be bored for a while. and I can always just play BB or DS3 if I do get bored

[@tytar1037]

Elden Ring and DS1 are my favorites. Polar opposites but still. I do love in DS1 how some bonfires aren’t worth resting at. Especially since you can get cursed and basically be screwed.

[@Disthron]

....OK I'm almost at the end of this video and I don't think you understand what exploration means

[@DoodlePrince]

Lovely! Glad to see you back. Hope we can get Nier's video.

[@chadchadly3564]

>video essay on elden ring >entire segments dedicated to talking about metroid and star wars

[@rijusnar1994]

Elden Ring IS a casual version of dark souls by giving what most casuals wanted : giving a more accessible Dark souls by them injecting a Open World.

[@snackinator7458]

Good video! Great talk about narrative genre and gameplay genre, but I think that the difference in emotional response is more on you being 10 years older than when you first played Dark Souls rather than the gameplay. You bring up all of these things that supposedly were added into Elden Ring, but have actually been around since Dark Souls. 1. You've always been able to exploit the respawning enemies for low risk gains to help you juice up for the challenge. 2. Torrent faster than the enemies? Have you seen Chosen Undead? 3. Dark Souls actually had a shortcut you can open for backtracking before almost every major boss before you gain access to the teleporting of the Lord Vessel. However I do concede that fast traveling between save points is a lot more lenient and frequent. I essentially feel like the open world is mostly a gigantic, glorified Firelink Shrine. Rather than seeking respite in the confines of a shrine, you feel it when riding free on the fields. Giving the Tarnished a much more "outdoor person" characterization over Unkindled and the rest.

[@CyroTheSpider]

I only played Dark Souls last year for the first time and tried Elden Ring this week. It definitely feels like something is missing emotionally speaking and I think the video's creator has a good point.

[@Voice_of_p]

the entire video was great. you bring good points to the discussion and are very knowledgeable at this topic. Part 1 and 2 are my favorite because I learned something new and exciting. I will make sure this video gets more range. stay Healthy.

[@asbestosman1224]

This was a really good video that made me think a lot about structure in games. I think one thing they could do to increase the risk/reward thing in elden ring would be to require you be at a site of grace in order to fast travel. I love Elden Ring and hope fromsoftware does more open world stuff (they will), but also hope they kinda alternate and still do some metroidvanias or even linear games.

[@otsugabummer]

SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME whats the game showned in 23:08 until 23:30 i tried all castlevanias but none has this hud

[@SolePorpoise]

It's in the description. Record of Lodoss. I'm not recommending it (or recommending against it really)

[@otsugabummer]

@@SolePorpoise thank youu, i hope you're wrong bout the game tho, it looks so cool (but aesthetics are not everthing indeed)

[@nonononononoye]

"the souls games are never coming back" GOOD. QUIT WHILE YOUR AHEAD SEEN BORDERLANDS LATELY? SAINTS ROW? FALLLOOOUUTT? STAR WARS KNOW WHEN TO DIE

[@coralreef6298]

Funny how I've been trying to understand why I felt about Elden Ring the way I did. I genuinely liked it but when comparing it to all the other Soulsborne titles, Elden Ring just feels like a fancy open world but that's about it. It's like it lacks the soul that the other titles carry. I can't really put it into words, but it doesn't feel as memorable or special as the other ones.

[@durandus676]

I have to disagree, but that’s probably just cause my dumbass picked master key in DS1 and ended up all over the place and Elden ring felt just like that but bigger too me.

[@putyograsseson]

@@durandus676 lol that’s a surprisingly good comparison

[@saysikerightnow3914]

When I first played Elden Ring, I had no idea whether or not I would enjoy it. I had never played a FromSoft game and was not a fan of Soulsborne games. My friend ended up convincing me to play it though. At this point, I was a Metriodvania and Open World fan, with my favorite games being Breath of the Wild and Hollow Knight. It was uncanny how similar Elden Ring felt to Hollow Knight, they feel like narrative brothers and gameplay cousins.

[@bfranciscop]

Not sure if I agree with your overall conclusion, but you made very interesting points and observations. Excellent video as usual.

[@emptyptr9401]

I agree that bavigating Elden Ring is a totally different feeling than navigating a "true" souls-like. But I am not convinced that this is the end of an area. I think Miyazaki genuinely makes the kind of games he want to make, and I do believe he will make more games with souls-like level design. But I also think, and even hope, taht future games will differentiate themselves like Sekiro did. And I also expect him to now experiment with completely different genres.

[@cameronmeade4200]

Been subbed for 7 years! Thanks so much for helping me get into media and literary analysis 🖤

[@SolePorpoise]

Thank you for sharing that

[@harshmalhari8519]

I saw this video last year, and I’ve spent 3 months trying to find it again.

[@TH3FU113ZT]

Some things can be done to keep the open-world formula but keep the risk of choice through exploration you miss. 1. You can only warp when in contact with a SoG because as it's used now its kind of a get-out-of-jail-free card if an area is too difficult for the player 2. Have less SoG on the open world map. They are slightly too much on the map and combined with being able to warp anywhere make exploration too easy and have less risk. Only having a few in each area can make the regions feel like giant legacy dungeons where each pit-stop matters and each SoG feels like a giant relief after exploring a tough section. 3. Replace the SoG in caves and catacombs with states of Marika so that we can keep a minimal amount of graces on the map. Also keeps them more engaging since if you die in a cave e.g you know you won't be able to warp out to level up and come back. Instead, you are now forced to either just try again or leave until you find it again and with a limited amount of graces this will incentive using more markers. 4. Make enemies in the open world better at defending items that are left out. Sometimes it's too easy to just snag things with torrent without getting into any trouble with enemies who are supposed to defend it. Either nerf torrent or make enemies able to find a way to stop you from getting away too easily. This was a very well-put-together and thoughtful analysis though. I hope you see this and I'd like to hear your opinion on how much better the game would be with these changes.

[@lucideclair6690]

I appreciate this sort of critique so much more than the "Elden Ring is lazy and overrated because too many reused bosses," which such simple-minded, low hanging fruit in my opinion. Your more thoughtful look at actual game design is really what discourse and critique should be. I definitely agree that some things were lost from the transition to open world, and more importantly the ability to warp to any bonfire at any time. But there were many things gained as well. That is to say, Elden Ring is simply a different experience. Its not an evolution, or an "improvement" on Dark Souls. Its just different, and there are always pros and cons to design decisions; it is inevitable. I think part of the problem, is people seeing game design as a linear evolution; a path to making "objective improvements" until you reach some sort of "intangible perfection." The perfect, ultimate videogame. and that's just not how art works. I do think Elden Ring's exploration is still meaningful and filled with emotion experience. Dark souls feels much more like a pilgrimage; an arduous journey, testing your spirit and morale, and that tension of risk and reward with venturing deeper and deeper into the unknown, further away from safety is really powerful; I miss it. Elden ring's exploration is much more driven by curiosity and uncovering mystery; what amazing, awe-inspiring thing will I uncover if I keep pushing forward. It's about understanding, cataloging, and ultimately coming up with your own structure and order to the world, because the current order and understanding of the world via the golden order is inherently flawed. That's how the story and game-desing itnertwine. Anyway, I do hope fromsoft recognizes what the lost in the original dark souls and try to recreate and develop that further, so I agree with you

[@thedude8526]

I mean, the recycled bosses make the end game quite boring. Mountaintop of the Giants was a good example of that and a very boring landscape. Then there's some of the endgame bosses, Im looking at you Malenia, that had movesets that didn't really suit the universe. It's like they took moves from Sekiro and put it in a dark souls game and expected you to not get mad. Maliketh and Mohg were also good examples of that. Then there's the dullness of most the small dungeons. They all follow 3 or 4 styles found in the game. There's a lot thats not so great in this game. Despite that though, I still enjoyed most of the game.

[@Sonnance]

I think you touch on some good points here, but I feel as if one of your core premises is rooted in a conflation of what you personally find compelling about exploration and Metroidvanias with the essential elements of. Personally, for example, I value the discovery and narrative aspect of exploration more so than the risk/reward evaluation. And for Metroidvanias, I find that the progression of traversal abilities is one of the most compelling aspects. As such, I disagree with your delineation of what is or isn’t an essential element of the genre. (Keys in Soulsbornes don’t do it for me like a double jump does, for instance. They don’t create the same emotion that I seek out the genre for.)

[@iota-09]

this. also many of his points against elden ring are either dinsngenuous(why would the fact that the open world exist make grace discoveries in dungeons feel less satisfying? i don't get it, that's just two different gameplay loops unrelated to each other) or straight up IGNORING the fact that they were already a thing inevery souls game past dark souls 1(warping to any bonfire you want for example)

[@SirGrimLockSmithVIII]

I think part of what Soleporpoise is saying is that what makes exploration worthwhile is the risk/reward factor that goes into deciding which branching path to explore in the first place. The risk/reward stuff is an essential ingredient for making exploration more organic and impactful rather than simply a checklist to breeze through. The narrative aspect that you value in these types of games would feel like it has very little stakes without the risk/reward aspect, regardless of how it tries to communicate those stakes through cutscenes and dialog.

[@iota-09]

@@SirGrimLockSmithVIII that only goes for the overworld though. in the case of the overworld, not counting boss encounters which ARE risks(like not going past the farum greatbridge because it is guarded by a dragon) i think you guys are simply vieweing it from the wrong angle. the overworld isn't about risk/reward, it's more like being in a theme park and choosing which attraction visit first, or maybe, you wanna check more in detail and ifnd a small stand with peculiar and unique mercahnndise in it, or maybe you're looking for things other people have lost in their travels, seeking a treasure, or more simply, you just wanna look at something cool and unexpected or ghidden, which you might do. that's the kind of exploration elden ring overworld pushes for: theme park adventure VS goal-centric adventure

[@motcUS]

Breath of the wild being open world made me feel like i was never in hyrule, yet a sandbox or tech demo. just something i came to realize while watching this video.

[@MrDudesMcgee]

Elden ring is a better Zelda game than botw. Original zelda was my favorite game of all time until elden ring. It captures that style of game perfectly. Which is not dark souls style, but elden ring isn’t supposed to be a dark souls game.

[@DONWASABIJUAN]

I always felt like I was in the minority on BOTW, but I’m glad someone else feels the same.

[@ViscoseOCE]

hi!! ik this is a bizarre question but i noticed and cant stop wondering, what fps is the gameplay footage in this vid recorded in? it looks sooo much smoother than native 60 but has next to no artifacts from resampling either, it looks great!

[@jiffylou98]

“Dark souls is THE Metroidvania“ How can someone say something so controversial yet so brave

[@trashaimgamer7822]

Most importantly completely wrong

[@jamesrandall470]

Yeah I think it's just wrong lol

[@abyzzwalker]

Fantastic video as always, I was also surprised at first that FROM SOFTWARE let's you warp at pretty much anytime ( outside of combat / dungeons). And it's true that would prefer if Elden ring had way less sites of graces to make the experience more risky. I was also surprised that killing all the enemies in an area replenish your flasks. One thing I still do sometimes is rest at a site of grace to teleport 😂 Old habits die hard.

[@joshcrackedboooi2392]

I'm pretty sure each soul like has a different feel and style to them. like for dark souls 1 the game was a linier one that allowed you to branch out to a different path, but all of those paths are generally connected one way or another. dark souls 2 felt like multiple linier areas with things to do in each one to progress. dark souls 3 though having branching paths felt purely linier with the exploration being for an optional boss or items. i have not played sekiro or bloodborne yet though. when i played Elden ring the level design felt like fuck around and find out, like if you find an area the game encourages you to come back if you are struggling. each one so far gives a different mentality when it comes to level design. for gameplay i can't really put my finger on it with each game but they all feel different as well even with the same core principals. though i agree with you as well it's not necessarily a bad thing for Elden ring to do that, just a different thing.

[@henseltbrumbleburg3752]

Just solid points, I completely agree. Really communicates my issues genre in games perfectly. I absolutely agree. Very perceptive points! It's what I dislike about a lot of RPG's they completely forget to implement the progression of the character with the narrative of the world, leveling up initially represents the growth we have in the world and what we can do in it, but most of the time the 2 are completely separate. What you can gain doesn't make sense or really benefit what you can do in the world, like learning a skill to be better at crafting, or specializing in a certain weapon type. I should be able to dodge this rock having put points in agility, etc. but most of the time unlocks will be something like gain more from loot, which are the kind of 'power-ups' that make no sense within the narrative. I honestly feel RPG's are super starved at the moment. Would love a modern RPG like Gothic or the elder scroll games. Even Bethesda games have lost a lot of what made them RPG's