Scale Positions for Guitar - The 3 most Important Systems

[@JensLarsen]

You can download PDFs for the scales and a lot of arpeggios etc here: jenslarsen.nl/pdf-downloads-charts/ Content: 0:00 Intro and Internet Drama 1:05 Who needs scales anyway? 1:25 My Home Made Blues Scale Position 2:10 Learning Improvisation and 5 Scale Positions 2:38 Needing a System and Finding one 3:40 #1 - 7 Position System 5:30 Conservatory Technique and not learning 3NPS 5:52 Learning to play fast with John Petrucci 6:48 #2 - 3NPS (3 Notes Per String) 8:12 How I know the CAGED SYSTEM 8:40 #3 The CAGED System 9:48 Comparing the systems 10:22 The 7 Position systems and a few issues 10:42 Stretches and Position Shifts 12:10 Hidden Stretches in The CAGED system 13:11 The CAGED Scales and The Basic Chords & Arpeggios 14:02 What System do you use? Did I get something wrong? 14:21 Like the video? Check out my Patreon Page!

[@ShineDawg]

Thanks Jens

[@johnsdog5839]

Generous indeed, thanks.

[@tmusic99]

The pattern at 6:53 is a type 1A fingering in the "Modern method for guitar"(Berklee Methods). 4 basic fingerings (book 1 and 2) are developed by fingerstrechning to a final stage where you have 12 fingerings along the neck for each key (at book 3). Learned this in the seventees to get rid of the fingering problem. Hard work to learn but Recommended.

[@JensLarsen]

Ok! Interesting! Somebody else mentioned that I think 🙂

[@rhysgerwin4902]

You and I had the exact same stages of development in our understanding of scales. It's comforting

[@JensLarsen]

Great! For me it was quite a lot of work though :)

[@rhysgerwin4902]

@@JensLarsen Absolutely. I remember learning CAGED my first year of college (I didn't have a teacher until college). I was also more classical and didn't like the shapes. Then I got into another school after and learned the Berklee 7 position System. I believe it's in the Modern Method For Guitar book as well. Now I use mostly "7 position" and 3nps. Definitely a lot of work thought! Especially when all of your peers already know them and you don't, which was my experience. Thanks for the videos, Jens. Your book is great too by the way!

[@Katatopianos]

I originally learned the 7 position system which I refer to as “ modal” which can be played either closed or open. I later also learned the caged system which I found helped me to visualize the fretboard better and see where my chord tones are. Eventually everything merged into one fretboard where I was free from thinking of positions which I think is the ultimate goal.

[@JensLarsen]

That's great! It should indeed not be so that you have to think about positions while improvising 🙂

[@shaunmcinnis566]

I did it Exactly the same way. It’s like caged is superimposed over the top. 3 notes per string for sequences is smooth as well. Cheers

[@bobravenscraft5376]

What I said caged was stupid till I learned modes and voicings. Then bingo

[@thomasressler]

This is another extremely informative and helpful video. I'm returning to the guitar after more than a decade, and I've really only known the blues, country and classic rock approach to scales, and have been dying to find exactly this kind of information presented in a manner that was accessible for me. Thank you SO much!

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you Thomas! I am glad you found it useful! 👍

[@johnnydeeme]

Yes, I am too in the same boat.

[@ggauche3465]

I play sax and watch your videos basically for fun and general info and I've watched this one before. After a 30 year break I got a guitar again a month ago, pretty much for harmonic background stuff, and now really see the value of this vlog. You have a knack of going straight to the centre of a topic. Once again, thanks Jens, a fantastic video.

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you very much Graeme! It's great that you got back to guitar :)

[@brutalslam8443]

Great overview! The 7 position system is outlined in A Modern Method for Guitar (Vol. 1, 2 and 3) by William Leavitt published by Berklee Press. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone mention it. Everyone always seems to favour 3nps or Caged. My guitar teacher in the 80's used that series as the workbooks for my lessons. ☺

[@Craterbiglarge]

The fact that you only started studying scales and jazz when you were 20 is honestly the most inspiring thing i have heard (I am 20 and beginning my jazz journey after years of pentatonic scale noodling)

[@DanneoYT]

Same, after years of playing from tabs...curse past self

[@MaTTheWish]

20 is a great age to start! Especially if you're already familiar with the instrument!

[@johnmac8084]

I've only just started studying scales and jazz at the age of 65!

[@marshwetland3808]

@@johnmac8084 Whew, glad I'm not the only one. You have only 5 years on me. I wanted to study jazz when I used to play piano years ago, and of course I know something about scales and such, but it's completely different on the guitar - lol.

[@SebastianSer]

I’m almost 19 and I’ve only now started really taking theory seriously after 3 years of reading tabs and slacking around, and sometimes I feel a bit “late” seeing how a lot of players started out quite young, so it’s definitely very inspiring hearing cases like these. Puts things into a better perspective.

[@rv4tyler]

7 position system is what I had been looking for. Thank you!!

[@JensLarsen]

Glad it was helpful!

[@bwinters]

I started on piano (adult, selfstudy, jazz focus), so I know my scales pretty well. I bought a guitar on a whim, to expand my „musical horizon“. When I was trying out playing melodies on guitar, the caged system didn‘t really stick. It helped me understand playing chords all over the fretboard, but made melodies really confusing. So I quickly gave up on melodies and stuck to playing chords. Just recently I wanted to practice playing some real book melodies again and by chance found your berklee 7 position system pdf on google images, when I was searching for a system for major scales on guitar. It makes a lot of sense for me and I love it. As somebody with a big love for music theory, the berklee 7th position system just resonates well. Thank you by introducing me to this system, even though it was just by chance! I’ve been watching your channel even before finding the berklee 7th position pdf and it has been a great help. My favorite channel when it comes to music theory + guitar playing.

[@christianmani1730]

Jens, thank you for this! I've always been a mix up of the 7 Pos and the CAGED player, but now I'm working on 3NPS. BTW, I'd just like to point out a small error in the graphic at the 7:34 mark: the scale fingering that starts at the 10th fret shows the 6th note being played at fret 13 when it should be fret 14 (B natural and not a Bb). For anyone who might have been confused. Cheers!

[@JensLarsen]

Thanks Christian! Yes that is a typo :)

[@GlennMichaelThompson]

Hi Jens. The 7 position system really isn't discussed enough. Honestly this is the only video I've ever seen it mentioned and shown with these exact fingerings anywhere on KZbin. It's the one I've always used to show students first. I first learned it from the Modern Method for Guitar volumes. My parents bought them for me when they went to Boston back around 1977. Best souvenir from Boston they could have possibly got for me! God bless them!😇✨💫

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you! Yes I agree that this system is left out and that is a pity 🙂 it is a really solid way for learning the neck

[@sonnytjuh]

Now there is! Check out "things I`ve learned from Barry Harris" on KZbin

[@JensLarsen]

Does Barry teach the Berklee Scale fingering system? That's news to me at least 🙂

[@marcosa3145]

Thanks for the lesson. I first learned pentatonic scales and from there, I learned to play the major scales using 2and3 notes per string. This video affirmed I was on the right track, but now I see the whole picture. Thank you.

[@Brett.Williams365]

Wow! Seriously one of the most informative tutorials I’ve ever seen. It will help me a lot. Thanks Jens.

[@JensLarsen]

Glad you find it useful, Brett

[@arekmenner]

My guitar journey was basically strummed triads -> pentatonic lead -> diatonic lead, so it was CAGED for the pentatonics from the chord shapes, then I learned the full major scales for those 5 positions. I think especially for triad-heavy music, it's a good framework. I saw someone doing 3nps and picked it up, and I find it much easier for nimble scale sections. I like that I have some new forms and some modifications of old forms. I'll try the 7 position versions. I think it's more worthwhile to just know them all. At a certain point, there's only one fretboard, so they all have to be true.

[@JensLarsen]

I agree with you that it makes sense to know them all. I know for sure that I use fragments from all of them because that way of playing a phrase is easier and sounds better

[@Wagohowardhanahou]

If you watch listen and teach these lessons you become an amazing instructor and a better musician! He has a practical patterns and methods of how to “solo”, choose voicings, and vocabulary to express yourself. Super excellent!

[@Gitarrenvideokurse]

Hi, Jens, first of all thank you for your videos and your inspiration. My mastery lies in the classical guitar and during the last 10 years fingerstyle and flatpicking on the steel string - jazz has always been a side issue for me, but due to my looper compositions and the freedom to improvise, I have been able to take the fretboard anew in recent years. I get along very well with the structures of the CAGED system, which I also use very often - also as a methodology in my lessons: 1. I have the pentatonics inside 2. the Bluesscale 3. can derive major and minor scales and also modes from them 4. can first add individual option tones to the pentatonics, which 1. did not overwhelm me at the beginning and 2. also gives my students digestible morsels 5. I can play all arpeggios of different chords well, three voices, major, minor, augmented (is it the right english word? i'm not sure right now...) and diminished, add option tones (like melodic patterns, Jan-Hammer-Scale, etc.) or with options like 7, 9, 11, 13 6. the positions can be combined very well, especially in pentatonics, and we find this kind of view on the fretboard with a lot of "reference" guitarists from the blues and rock area. No matter if B.B.King, Albert King, Eric Clapton, Santana, Ritchie Blackmore, Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, Jeff Beck, Mark Knopfler, Mike Oldfield, Andy Summers, Randy Rhodes, Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, Paul Gilbert, .............in all of them you will often find these structures in the solos - so if you want to play rock or pop, I think the CAGED system is the right choice for you. 7. I also use 3-notes-per-string, but rather for special applications. As you said before: this concept is especially good for the right hand because of its symmetry and is also very clear in other ways.Some fingerings are especially well suited and I use them for very fast sequence runs within a rock solo or I like to use sequences on 2 strings to move horizontally up or down the fretboard on b and e for example. 8. the 7-position concept is coherent, but due to the permanent stretching on a spanish guitar or a steel string it is no pleasure and for me it is too theoretical for the music I listen to or I play myself and seems to me not as practical as the above concepts. So much for my modest and constantly growing insights into the fretboard :-) Thank you, many greetings, Peter

[@joesloan2207]

'I had a teacher at the conservatory, he used 3 notes per string, I didn't have any faith in him or his playing'. 😂😂😂 Damn Jens, just telling it like it is. 👍

[@gustavosuarez3855]

It was so clarifying Thank you! I guess, the 7 position sys. is great for direct reading and more related to chord position.

[@JensLarsen]

Glad it was useful. I would imagine that they are all good for that 🙂

[@MindsetMastery75]

I know the CAGED system, the 7 position 3NPS system and the 5 position system. And i basically use all of them in different situations. I like the CAGED system because it layed out the neck in a way that made it easy to understand and know where i am at all times. I also use the CAGED system for chords, triads, and their inversions. CAGED system really made it easy to see all the triads and inversions on the neck. However, when i practice my scales, i almost always use the 7 positon 3 NPS. I find this system with the 3 NPS much easier to economy pick and alternate pick for obvious reasons. But i also know the closed scale shapes also, so when i am improvising it is easier for me to see all the notes of a given scale laid out for me.

[@JensLarsen]

The most important thing is to have something that works for you :)

[@NikolaiMusicChannel]

Nice video, with a good overview over some of the different ways to visualise scales on the guitar :-) I myself started with the 7-position system, then when I was 17 years old and wanted to shred like Petrucci (got a hold on Rock Dicipline in high school;-) ) and Michal Romeo I adopted the three notes per string system :-P When i started the jazz conservatory though I learned the CAGED system, and I think the main point of this system isn't that you don't have to stretch your fingers, but that you visualise the chords and the scale at the same time. I found that really helpful when learning jazz, both for playing arpeggios, and especially when I want to comp myself when i solo. I use all three systems still, but mainly I use a combination of CAGED for lines with a lot of arpeggios and chords, and three notes per string for faster frases. Now I'm working on the four notes pr string system, that I see for example Kurt Rosenwinkel using a lot to get his long fluid lines all over neck board :-)

[@JensLarsen]

That's great! It is indeed all about having a combination that works for you 🙂

[@johnchan2156]

CAGED cuz it’s really connecting the chord and arpeggio shape very easily!! And the diatonic scale connects with pentatonic well!

[@JensLarsen]

Solid choice! 🙂

[@jeppej4265]

Started from CAGED here as well. Coming from "learned the chrords" background without understanding theory in them. Once starting to learn theory this was building on top of what I already knew. Also like playing country where hybrid picking and banjo rolls are quite often using the chord triads. Other two came into picture when learning fast riffs so better to use best tool for what ever task your facing!

[@samconomo3726]

I loved the video,I went down this road about 40 years ago.your over view is accurate,but ,allows flexibility for personalising. Excellent video...

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you 🙂

[@strings41]

I have been playing guitar as a hobby all my adult life - mostly jazz but some classical. Now that I'm 80, making more than 4-fret stretches is very difficult because of arthritis. For chord melody and comping I find that triads are very useful for ease of fingering. Mostly I use shell triads, e.g., F, B & G for G7, D, C & F for Dm7, E, C & G for Am7, etc., plus diminished chords for connection (ala Barry Harris.) Using triads thusly, allows for faster execution of changes with less stretching.

[@JensLarsen]

Sounds sensible! :)

[@jumemowery9434]

Thanks Jens. I love your teaching style. I find that I use a "hybrid" system. Depending on what I am playing I switch between scale forms

[@JensLarsen]

That's also what I do, I think you can even tell because I go back and forth between systems in lessons :)

[@dougkearns]

This 7 position system is an abbreviated form of Bill Leavitt's 12 position system. This is detailed in his A Modern Method for Guitar (Berklee Press) book series. I'm not sure if it originates with him but I don't have an earlier reference. Like most of these things it's probably as old as the guitar itself. :)

[@JensLarsen]

Thanks Doug! That's the earliest I have heard of as well 🙂

[@NickBurbeyGuitar]

I came to say this, but here we are!

[@dwodo21]

Doug Kearns Yes, that’s exactly what I was thinking, the William Leavitt method.

[@jeffteza682]

First video I've seen that talks and breaks down the 3 approaches. I've used your "7 note Berkeley" system but have also struggled to "shred" and your observation re: 3NPS on consistent right hand makes me want to practice it more (though I have small hands). I typically think about the fretboard as a 4 string "common" pattern and a 2 string "modifiable" pattern where I can start anywhere by knowing the scale tones of the pattern (adjusted for the G-B 3rd interval). I hope this makes sense.

[@gaborkovacs7134]

This has been very interesting to watch: I had not known about multiple systems competing for the status of being the best way of partitioning the fingerboard into positions. I have always looked at it like this: for any scale, the ultimate challenge is to master the fingerboard as one continuous whole. Because that is a daunting task, it is pedagogically beneficial to begin by breaking it up into chunks called positions. Positions are like looking at the parts of the fingerboard through a small window. I like to distinguish between two essential window shapes: (1) a standard 5-fret shape: in this shape, if you play the chromatic scale ascending, you would not play the 5th fret on the G-string as that would double the note on the 1st fret on the B-string; so there’s a gap there; or (2) alternatively you may play up to the 5th fret on the G-string and continue on frets 2-to-6 on both the B and the E strings; this gives you a 6-fret shape with a slight position shift for these two strings at the top (or - phycally/vertically - bottom). You may shift these windows so that they can start at any of the 12 frets. Here’s an image that displays all the possible (2 x 12 = 24) one-position fingerings for the major (Ionian) scale. drive.google.com/file/d/1gk6W9D8se5Qgz_ZpcqHNrDcks2-rkEuw/view?usp=sharing One may decide to practice them all before moving on to connecting neighbouring positions, but most guitarists pick their favourites based on preferences detailed in this video. You really need no more than about 7 or so positions. Some of them feel very natural immediately because all or most notes fit into the one-finger-one-fret scheme; so those positions are well-known and taught as standard material. With other options, the pros and cons are difficult to weigh in an objective manner, and that is why guitar methods differ in their recommendations. When learning a fingering pattern, in addition to where the root and other notes fall, I think it is also essential to learn which particular notes the individual dots correspond to. I actually think it is easier to learn scales that way, as it gives meaning to the patterns.

[@tonycusack1]

Love these videos - I'm getting a lot out of them. One thing to note re this one however is that the diagrams of the CAGED system are have errors. Well 2 of them are ..... the ones for the A shape and D shape. In both cases what should be a B is shown as a Bb.

[@10sassafras]

Thanks for your videos. They are always thought provoking. I like the CAGED system because of its close proximity to pentatonic shapes and arpeggios based on familiar chords but I frequently mix it with both of the others. I often use the extension of first and fourth fingers which helps keep the CAGED system in single positions when thinking melodically through changes. When I use 3nps I generally feel more scalar and less melodic. That may be a familiarity issue or it might be a result of needing position changes with an already extended hand.

[@ronreis6023]

I tend to start out with a pentatonic pattern and fill in notes because I learned how to play blues. I learned this after learning tons of scale patterns on the guitar but not really listening. Then my ear woke up. I use pentatonics almost like a "shell".....just like chords. they have the important notes of the triad, major or minor. Add more notes and you find what key you are really in. It's my own cheezy system but it works for me. I can find melodies pretty quick that way. Now that I am trying to improve my improvisation skills, I am trying to see the notes of the chord more. Some of the coolest licks are from horn players who will approach the chord tones from a half step below and things like that. But, in my simple mind, it all starts with the blues and basically adding more notes.

[@JensLarsen]

It is indeed about finding the way that works for you! Chord tones and leading notes are indeed a very useful approach :)

[@nichaju1]

Hi! To answer your question, It’s been more than a year now that I’ve switched for the perfect 4th tuning. The 7 position and 3nps system you talk about blend together in it. In fact 2, 3 and 4nps doesn’t work anymore in positions, but they follow a logical pattern order (Derryl Gabels’ mnemonics) that is strictly the same from an octave to another. Coupled with a consistent use of 2-1-2 and 3-1-3 shapes for pentatonic, triads and arpeggios, layered on a single octave that I can repeat (like a piano player would do) and you get my system. Then, I also use single string scales a lot, and intervals recognition in a single octave (Tom Quayle system), very effective for that kind of tuning when you want to improvise freely with no patterns memorized. By the way, fantastic KZbin Chanel you have here!

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you Nicolas! Yes making decisions on stuff like a specific pattern is another approach all toghether. I do that really a lot with arpeggios, and will make a video on that at some point. 👍

[@nichaju1]

ludwig amadeus: true enough, the Eb/G can be a bit painful 😜! But only 4 shapes to remember for a closed Maj7 drop 2 chord is worth any pain ( I think it’s 16 with the standard tuning?)! I’ve found my holy grail with the p4th tuning. It took me 25 years struggling trying to find something logical in the standard tuning and a good system for fretboard visualization, and I would still be searching if I did not change. With a year and a half of experience, everything makes so much more sense to me. On the topic of the video, I’ve realized that CAGED is only a complex artifice that tries to demystify a problem of our instrument that is only relevant if a B string is actually a B string! Make it a C and everything is clear!Thank you Stanley Jordan, Alex Hutchings, Tom Quayle... you’ve changed my life!

[@Wagohowardhanahou]

I learned how to play guitar play playing by ear .. king crimson, elp, phish, Zappa.... somehow stumbled into being able to play. But now thirty years later I am going back and learning (correcting) bad habits... what he explain for the two note opposed to three note playing on a string is GOLD!!! IS NAME THE 7 note (the Larson Scale Grail) LSG LOL. !!!!

[@anthonydemitre9392]

Hi, my first teacher used the 12 position system 1 for each fret, it just meant that you stretch up or down to reach the note, so sometimes the same position will use a different fingering, this helped me see the neck and use whatever fingering worked best

[@JensLarsen]

Never tried that. It does sound a bit complicated, but maybe I will try it out. That was using the 7 "berklee" positions?

[@anthonydemitre9392]

he told me that it was what they taught at Berklee, you lay your fingers on each set of 4 frets and stretch to accommodate the scale you're practising, yes it does cover the 7 positions but you must reach for the notes, it really was just a good work out for the fingerings

[@jaredbieber2439]

/My teacher is getting me to do the same thing right now. Did you find that it worked

[@hommedemystere]

One observation about 3NPS, Leavitt, and CAGED system scales is that 3NPS has the most stretches (18) and CAGED the fewest (2), with Leavitt in the middle (8). There are some advantages to having fewer stretches in that arpeggios are easier (requiring fewer stretches), and chromatic notes at the edges of the boxes are more available. These are important considerations, especially for those with smaller hands! :)

[@KennethGonzalez]

I started out with 3NPS position system, but always thought about it as 7 Position (7P), as I started off learning these as the modes. When I studied at GIT, I learned about the CAGED model. Agree with all your comments on 3NPS. At this point, I don't even think about it any more. I shift seamlessly between the different shapes, but that took time to lock in. Not the logical view of things, but understanding the sounds. I don't have the limitations on fingerings that I did as a younger player. It's much more fluid now. I attribute a lot of that to developing my ability to work with melodies. I don't think I can emphasize that enough, as it helps get transcend "finger patterns" and focus on *music*. Additionally, I got in the habit of using 7P to analyze chord shapes and think through different options for constructing them. Working the harmonized major scale in a single position is a good exercise to do with this, as well as playing through the cycle of fifths in a single position. Finally, I find that considering 7P is a great tool for sight reading -- especially if you're reading in signatures that you don't use that often and might not know the neck all that well. Yes, it's a bit of a crutch, but it gives you options for reading that you may not have had before. I think one of the biggest benefits is more efficient handling of accidentals. Instead of having weak readers "hunt and peck" for the right note, they can target the fingering and then deal with the difference for that measure. It's not perfect, but it has helped me :-P Great discussion topic and commentary, sir! Thank you :-)

[@JensLarsen]

I completely agree with you that the goal is to not think about the positions at all. Great that you got there! And interesting that you took that robåd as well 🙂

[@100thschool]

I never wanted to look up any of these positions and boxes and shapes of scales and just "follow" them or play without thought. Often times if you just given a pattern it becomes muscle memory more than actual understand why it's laid out the way it is. So what helped me in particular was to just learn intervals and how chords are made on small 25 keys midi keyboard and then applying that to "map out" fretboard scales by just following intervals everywhere I go in my own ways and at my own pace. I did notice some shapes you mentioned did eventually align with how I was mapping, but mapping out fretboard just on your own via intervals was EXTREMELY fun to me

[@timothybarrd.c.185]

Interesting another good video. I've never really used a system per-say, like you I come from an extensive classical background and the only scales I ever practiced were the Segovia scales which represent a 4th very distinct idea that I find useful, they travel up the neck and through the octaves which happens in a lot of classical pieces and is useful in fingerstyle jazz arrangements.

[@JensLarsen]

Ah yes, I had those too. I didn't really find them very useful though.

[@crushedem01]

learned 3nps modes from Satriani in the 80s from guitar school magazine from his master class series. Nothing wrong at all with how and what you teach. you explain things very clearly. I appreciate what you do. Love the Vulcan stretch reference. Live long and prosper Jens !!!

[@charleshunt7981]

Thanks for the informative lesson. It's great to know all of those systems to the point of not really thinking about them because when you are improvising you'll find yourself combining different aspects of each. Ascending and descending on a single string is also helpful to get under your fingers. One thing of note, I never realized that the squeeze technique (e.g. playing Dorian in 5th position switching to 4th position for the 3rd and 4th strings) was associated with the CAGED system. I actually learned that in beginning classical.

[@JensLarsen]

What is you system for scale fingerings? Is there one you consider better and why? 🙂

[@HighCountryGuitar]

For me, CAGED isn't a "scale system" as much as it is just a simple visual roadmap of the fretboard. Very useful as a learning tool to get around the fretboard in any key, and to identify where the primary chord tones sit.

[@JensLarsen]

That makes sense! I would actually say that they all can do that with the exception of connecting to the campfire chords?

[@DANNY082100]

Jens Larsen I usually don't see scales as a complete set of notes which I need to hit right. Instead, I use note intervals to determine where I should go next (for example, the major third distance is definitely on 1 string lower and minus 1 fret from the root, etc.) of course, these numbers will differ at G and B string. I find it really useful since it doesn't burden me with too much memorization, but I do have some problems if I need to do note jumps (eg. from 12-fret area to 3-fret area in a moment). I usually solve this problem by using arpeggios & triads

[@JensLarsen]

But can you actually perform melodies thinking like that? It seems like you have to think about every note you play?

[@DANNY082100]

Jens Larsen that's why I do have occasional stutters, especially if the scale changes frequently 😂

[@manny75586]

I'm least conversant in CAGE. I mostly use 3NPS. I like the natural upward movement of it. The Berklee method was always good for picking out the arpeggios for me though.

[@ericjtomsky]

That 7 note system is interesting-- I managed to get something fairly similar by learning all the positions of the pentatonic and then overlaying the major scale (so like Cmaj over Amin) and then filling out the major tones absent from the pentatonic in all those positions

[@Shuzies]

This is great....loved hearing how you think and what you worked in the shed.....your videos are the Best.......learning one day at a time

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you Ron! Do you have a position system you use for 6 string bass? (that is what you play right?)

[@Shuzies]

Yes six string bass...I use the seven most but always keep my options open depending on what I'm doing....you do make me want to paly guitar...but in another life...I have my hands full now

[@JensLarsen]

Ah ok! I have no idea how it all works on a six string bass. Goes way beyond my brain

[@Shuzies]

Right ...your funny......

[@smatlanta1]

I loved your overview and comparison. I continually bounce from system to system trying to determine which works best for me. I originally learned CAGED and it seems so many jazz players use something similar to that (Jimmy Bruno, Pat Martino, Barry Greene, etc.). I started learning the 3 notes per string through Frank Gambale videos. (Interestingly, you kept mentioning that it's great for Alternate picking, but 3 nps is even better for Gambale type "sweep" picking and economy picking). At one point I had the idea (after trying to study Sonny Stitt solos) to do EVERYTHING in the 8th position and that covers almost all the range I need! So I ended up "inventing" what Berklee was already teaching! LOL) I quickly realized that if I want to play some chords also the way many jazz players play, that I can't just stay in the 8th position. What seems to work best when playing a scale up and down quickly changes once you are playing actual lines that have chromatic notes and skips. Things get pretty complicated at that point and makes me confused again at what is best (which is why I started to try and play everything in one p[lace.) More recently I had some online lessons from Peter Sprague who is serious about not using the same finger twice on adjacent strings on the same fret. So no "rolling" or barring your fingers when playing single lines. I can totally hear and feel the clarity of playing like that, .... but it often twists up my fingers and my brain when I try it as a strict rule and I often find myself trapped and tangled up. My question to you is, do you like to "barr" your finger to play on adjacent strings on the same fret or do you like using two different fingers?

[@JensLarsen]

Thanks! Using Economy picking in 3NPS can be very limiting for your phrasing, so that is something you can check out but I would not rely to heavily on it. I have never heard of Peter Sprague, but that is also what is taught in classical music which is where I started.

[@robthequiet]

Nice lesson, Jens. I was introduced to the Segovia scales when my instructor handed me a thin book with the strict fingerings. I found it to be incredibly constricted and a poor way to understand moving through chord changes. Rather like simulating a conversation by reading a newspaper to a colleague. There is a Joe Pass lesson around KZbin that really helped me think of chords as moving lines, but whether or not there is a system to it, I have no idea.

[@JensLarsen]

Thanks! Makes sense that Segovia was not really giving improvisation priority with his scales. I think a lot of the older guys though as much in chords as in scales and really had ideas tied to chord voicings, but I am not entirely sure

[@guitargod6997]

Rob, Segovia was not dictating a tome about how to transition through chord changes, but rather a guide to making positional transitions on the neck and a tech workout for the hands. When you play - whether you are sight reading off sheet music or comping and improvising over a jazz tune's "changes" - you understand that you are using appropriate chord fragments and notes that belong to the chords and key of the song as well as chromatic notes. You can play the melody and chords in different positions on the neck. So you must know how a series of chords lay out on the neck and the choice must become "automatic" as dictated by the first note of your phrase and the last. But it is a 'choice', not a mandate. In any case, the technical demands of classical guitar are easily comparable to jazz. Segovia is the "father" of modern classical guitar. Sometimes "father knows best", but you do what works for you. By the way, the chord play and improvisation of Joe Pass is totally compatible and grounded in classical technique.

[@rebelamitis9360]

I did a light music bridging course at technikon over twenty years. My guitar teacher was a flamenco guitarist (still is) 'Demi Fernandez'. This scale shape is one of the first things he taught us. I think the course was a Berklee thing. I only completed 6 months and left.

[@JensLarsen]

Ok. That makes sense! Most people seem to connect it to the Berklee system.

[@brettliebermanmusic]

The “7 position system” is what they taught me at Berklee. It was just called “the scales I need to learn this semester” lol

[@JensLarsen]

Which is close to what they were called when I learned them: "Here, learn this for next week" 🙂

[@b_olson542]

Same for me in my program.

[@icedragon769]

It's what my guitar teacher taught me out of a music shop in arizona, I don't think he attended any school. He introduced them to me though as "greek modes", with the first-finger note as the root. It took a while to get them properly contextualized as positions of the scale.

[@JasonQuackenbushonGoogle]

I think its Larry Baione's take on Bill Leavitt's modern method fir guitar. i hated then until Abby Aronson explained to me that the point is to be able to play any mode in any position without changing position. I have found that using those along with 3NPS and the Segovia fingetings was the best way for me to integrate my understanding of the fretboard. along with Segovia's fingerings Jon Fin's 2 string scale fragment system and Jimmy Bruno's 5 scale system are alos worth taking a look at.

[@entarimador]

I also saw the "7 position system" at Berklee as a curriculum standard. Since I find useful visualizing chords related to each scale, I think of this system as "CBAGFED", which of course is CAGED + BF, and also a descending scale.

[@matthewscheiper6973]

Jens, thank you so much for all of your videos! I am really benefiting a lot from them!

[@JensLarsen]

Glad you like them!

[@tivvy6146]

You’re a lovely man Lars. Very generous with your time and experience. Thank you.🙂

[@johnnytoulouse2043]

I practice with 3 note a lot but I lean towards Segovia's scale patterns and CAGED cells when I improvise, especially if I'm thinking within a specific modality. I'll have to try out the 7 pos system; I had'nt ever seen that before. Thanks for the post, your lessons are amazing!

[@JensLarsen]

You're very welcome! I am glad you like it! 🙂

[@josdurkstraful]

Hi Jens, guitarteacher from the Netherlands here. I'm currently working on a book about improvising and of course I talk about scales. Through the years I have developed my own system of teaching scales. The first thing I teach is: all fingerings of all major scales AND their modes (84 scales) are the same...... I have made up a model that looks at the guitar like it is a circle for vertical positions and a spiral for diagonal scales. I have never seen anything like thgis in any book or youtube tutorial so I think it's kind of unique. It's very teachable also because the logic behind it makes it unnessesary to memorise different fingerings, since they all are the same.

[@JensLarsen]

That's great Jos! It's important to have a method you stand behind!

[@jimfelter5941]

Hey Jos, check out www.stevecrowell.com/

[@colesauer5440]

Jen's I love hearing you school days story's!

[@JensLarsen]

Thanks Cole! I have one video on how I got into jazz as well which is all stories :)

[@jonathanmorgan4480]

Another system which is really easy and useful for certain types of playing is four notes and three notes alternating. There are several variations, but what’s nice is that patterns are consistent between every two strings. Not sure what to call the system, but I find it very helpful for alternating between pentatonic scales in a 2 - 3 pattern. For this I’ll do 1st 2nd 3rd on one string and 4th 5th 6th 7th on the next string. You end up having two patterns that go diagonally across the fretboard.

[@JensLarsen]

Yes, I am not sure that a scale system like that is really a position? I also wonder if it doesn't get a bit complicated with basic exercises like diatonic 7th chords.

[@jonathanmorgan4480]

@@JensLarsen I actually have been playing around with this recently for 7 chords, and it is pretty nice for that as well. Instead playing 2 notes per string, whatever works best for the chord. I wouldn't recommend this for fully visualizing the fretboard however. I visualize based on a CAGED system, and play these patterns over it. I have been enjoying the 3 notes per string pattern since I watched your video as well, and starting with each note has been a helpful exercise. I like the idea of being able to freely navigate around the fretboard as I choose. The pattern mentioned above in conjunction with more of a block system seems to be a good way to learn transitions from one position to another.

[@goulo]

FWIW I have read that Yngwie Malmsteen likes to use a 4/3 scale system on guitar. E.g. see www.study-guitar.com/blog/3-note-per-string-scale-patterns/ I was experimenting with a (slightly differen) 4/3 scale system on LinnStrument (isomorphic layout square grid keypad instrument laid out with rows in fifths, like guitar strings except 4th/5th guitar strings). I was turned on to it by a video by a LinnStrument player who mentioned it. Advantage = simpler more regular layout, quicker to memorize. Disadvantage = more horizontal shifting, bigger stretches, less flexibility for different fingering patterns (i.e. with 3NPS you could choose to start with root note at left end of O_O_O, or middle of OO_O, or right end of O_OO, but with a 4/3 system each note is always in the same place relative to other notes). I'm currently practicing with 3NPS and liking it more. Time will tell... :) Certainly it seems true that being good at multiple systems would surely be best and give more flexibility!

[@nlmal4]

I use SFS (String Fragment System) for a while around 2 years for EVERYTHING Melodic Scales, harmonic Scales, and Major/Minor Scales, Modes Scales, Arpeggios, Pentatonic Scales, etc... It works extremely good OR well for me and more important I don't have to memorize anything. I still have to practice, but when you get used to the system that is heaven on earth. Conclusion this have made my life so easy on the guitar fretboard and is one of the best systems. 🙂

[@JensLarsen]

That's great! It's really good to know something works for you 🙂

[@AAAA-lt9hq]

Mr. Larsen, I am a 2000 graduate of Musician's Institute's GIT school in Los Angeles. I have been playing guitar for about 26 years. The purpose of this post is to discuss a four note per string system. At GIT, we were taught the CAGED and 3 note per string system. Paul Gilbert is the most famous graduate of the school, and so much of its curriculum, especially for rock and metal players, closely follows the way he plays guitar, with a heavy emphasis on alternate picking, clean technique, and modal playing. Other players have had long lasting influence there as well, such as Keith Wyatt's method of blues guitar instruction and Dan Gilbert's style of jazz fusion. Danny Gill of Lick Library is also one of my favorite teachers and a friend of mine. Danny knew Paul Gilbert when Paul was at the school in 1984. In 2000, I had the pleasure of briefly meeting Mike Stern during a clinic he was offering at GIT. His advice? Be able to locate chord tones and intervals. I have also taken lessons with jazz guitarist Cary DiNigris, when I learned something similar to shell voicings and dropping the 5th as an unnecessary note. I am less familiar with the Berklee method of instruction, which to me is more jazz oriented. For example, I did not know what "drop 2" meant until I watched your videos. I started watching your videos a few months ago as a way to see the guitar neck more like a jazz player, with emphasis on improvisation, tension, resolution, passing tones, and non-diatonic playing. Your lessons have helped me very much. Thank you. Unless I skipped over it, I did not see you mention a 4 note per string scale system in your video. I thought you might have tried this since, in my experience, jazz guitarists tend to see the neck linearly/horizontally, while rock, metal, and blues players tend to see the guitar neck vertically across strings, probably in order to facilitate fast pentatonic bending licks within box shapes. I am experimenting with a four note per string system. I think it has the following advantages. 1) It encourages the box-based player to see horizontally along the neck. 2) It makes switching between strings easier than 3 notes per string because notes are grouped in 4s instead of 3s. 3) It makes spotting intervals across wide intervallic gaps easier. 4) It trains the guitarist to use all four fingers. 5) It has positions that are more anatomically suited to the human hand than some CAGED positions, especially C and G, which are less used than the E, A, and D forms. I like CAGED because it breaks the neck down into manageable spaces that fit in neatly with pentatonic minor box shapes. However, when I go into legato playing, I shift to 3 (and ultimately 4) notes per string mode. CAGED also makes the teaching of barre chords much easier. Scales, barre chords, and arpeggios are all tightly integrated with CAGED. However, it tends to limit the guitarist by making one see the guitar neck as shapes instead of intervals. I am still working on improving being able to quickly identify intervallic relationships regardless of shape, whether above or below the root note. I am also working on trying to play everything I can within a 5 to 7 fret space on the guitar so I can minimize unnecessary movement. Compositionally, now I am more interested in chord melody, counterpoint, voice leading with chord extensions, inversions, secondary dominants, flat 5 substitutions, the relationship between diminished and 7th chords, and other advanced topics such as those covered in your lessons. Again, thank you very much for your work, and if you have thoughts on four notes per string from a jazz player's perspective, I would love to see a video on them. Aaron

[@JensLarsen]

Well, the 4-note per string layout is shifting position so much that calling it a scale-position system is not really precise. If you want to check how well it works for Jazz then play some Jazz lines using the system, or some melodies like Billie's Bounce Tenor Madness. Keep in mind that the Jazz language is not that scale based so you also want to explore if it makes sense to play diatonic triads and 7th chords using 4-notes per string.

[@armandosinger]

Oz Noy has a brief discussion of his scale practice on KZbin, and he uses 4 notes per string as part of his practice. It’s his way of practicing mastery of the whole fretboard and breaking out of the boxes. First, he demonstrated being able to play in the usual boxes in a key covering the entire fretboard, quickly while talking. Then he demonstrates 4 notes per string as a way of playing across the fretboard as you say. He always shifts the first finger so it’s finger 1, shift, finger 1, then the other 2 notes w/o a shift. 4 nps makes the right hand regular and fast both up and down the neck, and the fretting hand also has a consistent technique. He blazes through this, playing the scale across, then again for every degree of the scale. Then he does the same with 2 notes per string, to practice going along the fretboard backwards. So that covers vertical, horizontal, and backwards practice, with the latter 2 having a regular picking pattern. Not sure if his vertical boxes are the 7 pattern system or 3nps or caged.

[@kentjennings9080]

Excellent info, Jens! I use the caged system. One of its benefits (for me) is that six of the seven modes can be played with just 2 patterns. Only the Aeolian mode requires a stretch to a fifth fret. However, I haven't seen much discussion about this, and I'm sure I'm not the only one using these patterns.

[@plexibreath]

I learned the CAGED system at GIT. But eventually I added to it a couple positions that are in-between using the higher notes of one position with the lower notes of the next higher position. It typically means more major third finger stretches, but it gave me a better understanding of the fretboard, and I find those feel real good with a legato playing style. Lately I've been slowly bringing in the three note per string patterns, it's very logical. But for arpeggios I'm still using the CAGED system.

[@CrispySonOfA]

Would love to hear about your in between system. I gathered look at the caged position and extend it out in either direction without fully changing position.

[@plexibreath]

@@CrispySonOfA An example of this would be a position between the G and E shapes. So if you are in the key of C major and you are descending the E shape, which starts on the high E string, 11th fret, when you get to the 2nd string, the CAGED way would have you play only two notes on that string then go to the 3rd to continue descending, but if instead you played the next lowest note on the 2nd string, making it three notes instead of two, then proceed to decent on the 3rd string with frets 9, 7, 5, then on the 4th string 9, 7, 5, then 8, 7, 5 on the 5th and 6th strings. You can do the same kind of thing between the C and A shapes. Other places you start off with one shape, the when you get turn a two note per string into a three note per string, it shifts you completely from one CAGED shape to another like when you descend starting on the D shape you end up finishing on the C shape by turning the 2 notes on 3rd string into 3 notes.

[@EnricoDellAquila]

The 7-position system is quite similar to the one I learnt from the Leavitt method, that also considers the middle finger as a 'position indicator'. CAGED: for scales I always had it named "position playing", where you have at some point 2 notes instead of 3 on a string, otherwise the position shifts... Other systems I came up/discovered over the years: - 2 notes per string: allows the fretting hand to move back on the neck - 4 notes per string: adding a slide on the half steps, you can move the fretting hand up the neck, and play long scales, keeping (loosely) some consistency and logic in hand movement I lately, came up with another one, useful for playing modes, especially with minor scales: - 4+3 / 3+4 notes per string: a mix of 3 and 4 notes per string. This has the advantage of repeating the same unique pattern for any mode, on different sets of 2 strings. Works the same with bebop scales (but then it becomes a 4 notes per string variation) I'm sure these are no new things, and I kind of reinvented the wheel... but it's part of internalizing and 'owning' the scales, rather than copying dots on paper... I'll be happy to discuss it if you will...

[@JensLarsen]

It's not really about coming up with new things as much as it is about finding ways to explore the neck and see how that works for you! Sounds like you are on the right path to me!

[@СергейВанюшин-т9е]

Great overview of the main scalar concepts, I appreciate your work. But I think that there is a mistake in the 6th position of a 7 position system - it's Bb there on the 5th string, but should be B natural, I suppose)

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you! That's indeed a typo 🙂 I have a pdf with the correct diagram on my website

[@mbmillermo]

Has no one told you there are several errors in your graphics? For example, at 9:25 -- that chart is wrong, but what you play is correct. But that's not the only mistake. Usually it is that your chart shows one of the B notes as a B♭. About your question -- I learned to play in every key in open position -- using as many open strings as possible, then I moved those patterns to closed positions. You pick up a few interesting little tricks like the patterns for G and A♭ differ slightly, same for F and F♯. D and E♭. The patterns for C and C♯ (or D♭) are the same. So that gives us 12 patterns for playing diatonic scales in position. Then I work mostly with those that have two notes on the G string and 3 notes on all other strings. In the cases where you have two notes on the B string, I would change that so that the highest note on the G string is played instead on the B string. When played in open position, exactly one scale has two notes on the B string: F major. I use the F♯ pattern instead of the F pattern and thereby get two notes on the G string and three on the B string. That said, I came here because I"m trying to decide what is truly the best way to deal with these issues. I have more ideas that I'm not going to write down right now. Thanks!

[@JensLarsen]

I know there are few typos. That is the nature of being a one-man-operation with videos like this. In the end you don't have to worry too much about what you work with any of the systems will work if you stick with them.

[@antonparas4782]

​@@JensLarsen​ respect for not letting perfection be the enemy of progress :)

[@mattflamenco]

I teach the 3NPS and boil it down to the 3 patterns. #1, the stretchy #2, index closed and #3, ring finger closed. It looks easy on paper and easy to remember. Also, if you've just played, for example 2 of those it'll be followed by 2 of those and 3 of those until you fall of the guitar. But hay, it all works. Great videos, thanks for posting. 😄👍

[@PopovSB]

Hi Jens! All these fingering-visual systems are the same if you see the steps and trichords (M,m,h) on the fingerboard. There are even more than three - diagonal, one-string, two-string, four-note, two-note, and so on.

[@mariobarrela]

The effective rule for the CAGED system is that you never have a minor second interval from one string to another. All the minor second intervals are made in the same string. I think the CAGED system is the DNA of the guitar for the standard tuning. And also is good to divide the register in only five portions. And sure the three note system is also very effective. I use a lot the two but I teach alway first the CAGED system. Thanks for the videos

[@kurtti1043]

Thanks! Ive had a hard time figuring what system to use. Just trying to get few 3nps position under my fingers.

[@JensLarsen]

That's great! It's good to have knowledge of all of them 🙂

[@rolandmueller7218]

I think the “7 position system” was used by Larry Coryell to teach the fretboard in a series of articles in Guitar Player Magazine in the 70s. He called them modes. He would teach the two octave modes starting on the 6th string and ending on the 1st string. A seperate mode was used for each of the 7 positions: ionian, dorian, Phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, and locrian.

[@JensLarsen]

Ok. Interesting! I find that way of linking scale positions to modes questionable teaching at best. That always seem to lead to all sorts of confusion down the line if people want to play jazz.

[@rolandmueller7218]

He was actually teaching modes, at the time, but he used the 7 positions up the neck.

[@davidkennedy6059]

This is so informative! Thanks Jens

[@JensLarsen]

Glad it was helpful 🙂

[@JohnyPentlow]

Hi Jens, Thank you for this very interesting lesson and for all the others. I have been using a system from the book Beginning Jazz Guitar by Jody Fisher, for the major scale there are six patterns: 6/1 5/1; 6/2 5/2; 6/4 5/4 - two of the patterns are 3 notes per string (6/1 & 5/1), it seems to work quite well but I'm probably not proficient enough to know the problems. In any event the four Jazz Guitar Books by Jody Fisher are good in my opinion, although I understand the concepts of Jazz more clearly the way in which you explain them. Keep up the good work and thank you again. J

[@JensLarsen]

Thanks Johny! I am not familiar with that system, but I am sure it is good. Jody knows his stuff!

[@RealinDealer]

I think I do the 3NP string one from the F Lydian position at the bottom to the E Phrygian position the 12 fret when trying to learn the fretboard. Though it may not be the most comfortable. I originally chose it as a starting framework because it also gives the option of sweeping.

[@DatingDilemmaBreakdown]

Thank you, thank you, thank you! When I started with scales, my teacher taught me NPS I think. But online I found the 7-system. That confused me. Then I also found CAGED. And I legit just wanted to give up because I had no idea what was going on for the last year. I'm so glad I found this video... I honestly was close to giving up with all the confusion in the last year.

[@artivrolijkekunst990]

Hello Jens. I am using the 7-positions for playing the major scales. Just recently I began using the 7-positions system with 3 notes on every string. I adjusted the old one to the one with the 3 notes per string. Just some changes on the 2 highest strings were needed. I end up with exactly the same fingerings that I found on your website. Some stretches on the high strings are a little tough, but with some practice this will be no problem anymore. I like your videos very much. Keep up with the good work!

[@JensLarsen]

That sounds like a greatway to transition into it! Glad you like the videos! If you have any suggestions for topics or things you are looking for the feel free to let me know 👍

[@GuitarTerraYT]

I had used both CAGED and 3PS for years but am now in the Berklee Online program and yes, they are using the 7 position system. I didn't see much of a difference at first when just working in Major but I found it a great system when you apply it also to Melodic Min, Harmonic Min and Harmonic Major. It was easier to 'see' those new parent scales having that foundation in 7 position Major. I haven't tried to work those other parent scales out in CAGED or 3PS though.

[@hearpalhere]

I've never come across the 7 position system before. Seems very interesting, I'm currently working on internalizing CAGED and have previously only really worked from the five positions of the pentatonic minor. So much to learn :-)

[@ValkusR]

Very useful video for me. I aslo has classical guitar background and the way I was playing scales was absolutely usless for improvisation. I was getting in some wierd fingering that blocked me and distracted from important problems. Thanks!

[@brshreds]

There's another system that my teacher at Berklee Valencia showed me that adds some consistency when switching between parallel modes: start with the 2nd finger on the 6th string root, play the 2nd degree on the same string, and then every other string is regular 3NPS, with each degree being in basically the same place/same finger, no matter what scale or mode (as long as it has 7 notes, of course). I've found that really useful for remembering some of the less common scale shapes, since I can work my way to it if I remember how it's constructed, as well as comparing the sound of scales by starting from the same root.

[@Shawn-hs8qk]

I use CAGED shapes with arpeggios and 2nps Pentatonics(and obviously tons of chromaticism). But I also use 3nps shapes for my jazz and rock playing. CAGED shapes line the Chord tones up in all the right spots for me, but I can really light up 2nps and 3nps. Quartal stuff seems to work well with 3nps (no extra string hops) and I still need to explore that further.

[@JensLarsen]

I think you will find that a lot of people coming from metal will use both caged and 3nps, but I am not sure?

[@Shawn-hs8qk]

your probably right. And I like you had a pretty strong classical background. I also didn't care for the Segovia scales at all. Seemed like nothing more than runs. Helpful with shifts maybe. But I liked all the right hand combos. Just preferred my ways of looking at scales to his runs.

[@JensLarsen]

Interesting! I didn't know that 🙂

[@yikelu]

First scale system I used was 3NPS, but that was mostly shred practice and I didn't really try to improvise over chords with it. For a while I didn't use a system and just winged it improvising, not really knowing I should target chord tones. Combined licks from various systems. Recently I settled on CAGED as a visualization system, after discovering that it sounds good to hit chord tones. I was basically practicing Autumn Leaves, comping using the most basic movable barre shapes, and could solo with those as the outline, but I found it annoying that I had to keep position shifting every chord change. So I tried to play all the chords/arpeggios in as close to a single position as possible, and I realized I was pretty close to the CAGED system. It's mostly trying to economize on time -- so that knowing how to comp a song more directly translates to knowing how to solo over it. In fact, while jamming a song on rhythm, I'll try to find the same progression in different positions so I can prep myself for the solo. And I'll stress that I use it mainly as visualization system strictly for triad chord tones. From these, I then know how to hit my other extensions (7s, 9s, 11s, 13s), but the actual fingering varies based on a number of factors. Also as far as right hand ergonomics, I adopted an economy picking style, which I find way more adaptable to any left hand fingering.

[@marcelloschmidt]

Thanks for the video Jens. I share your thoughts, I never use (or think about the positions) and I find it more limiting than helpful (personally). My teacher always complains about it, but I can't really see the point of being limited by a position, if your goal is to find the right notes, wherever they are.

[@whynottalklikeapirat]

I actually like to play traditional 3 note per string systems with a 2 notes per string distribution. It requires some moving around, but breaks the patterns and seems to unify the feel of 3 notes per string systems (mainly diatonic) and normal 2 notes per string stuff (mainly pentatonic). For me at least it opens up the guitar more ... I may also do 4 notes per string as two separate 2 notes per string movements ... same approach ...

[@RockWeller]

Great lesson!

[@JensLarsen]

Thank you 🙂

[@TomaszBieniek]

Hi Jens. First of all thanks for all the excellent educational material you are putting on YT - I find your channel the best channel for jazz guitar. When looking at #1 - 7 Position System (starting from 3:40) I think that the 6th position on the chart is not fully correct. It has B flat and if we are in C it should be just B?

[@JensLarsen]

Thanks Tomek! Yeah that is a typo

[@daleleeroy]

I noticed this too as I was starting to dig into this (which is completely new to me). It means people are paying attention Jens! :-) On the topic of 3NPS systems, I found another video which I found tied into this nicely, which detailed a great way to break these down into 3 smaller patterns/subsets/shapes which these 7 positions are all built on. I'm certainly not trying to direct people away from your great videos, which I've been finding invaluable by the way, but in the interest of a little extra help to learn this system, do check out kzbin.info/www/bejne/fXzTaKmmdruoepY

[@artivrolijkekunst990]

Hi Jens. I'm going back playing the major scale on 7 positions without the 3 notes on the highest strings. I play jazz a couple of months and I think it's to early to start with the 3NPS scales. I know the scales well and for me it's very useful for knowing were all the notes are on the fretboard. I want to keep things basic. I know the major scale with the dorian and mixolydian modes. I know the 5 positions for playing the pentatonic scales and I know most of the arpeggios. I know the melody and the chords of 12 jazz-standards and a very basic way to improvise over them. On this stage that's enough for me.

[@JensLarsen]

That seems like a very solid choice! Keeping it to the basics when practicing will open up much more things i the long run!

[@Soul-OnFire]

I have never learned any of the systems. I am trying to learn more about them because I keep seeing them referenced in videos (like your Arpeggio instructional video) you mentioned a position when demonstrating the diatonic arpeggios for the C major scale. I admit I have to replay your videos (and all the instructional music theory videos I watch) 😝, but I am learning so much. Thank you for putting this information out there and taking the time to explain these concepts. 🙏 ✌️

[@Soul-OnFire]

To be totally honest I learned most of the scales I use slowly by trying to learn different songs (and learning what notes sounded good and which didn’t) I am trying to get more specific with my knowledge and application. But as for actual hand positioning, I mostly guess and have no idea what I’m doing. I’ve never taken lessons or any kind of formal training. I’ve really just spent my time previously learning Phish and other band’s songs (classic rock and jam bands) Anyways I’ve been scouring the internet for music theory and any and all info about improvisational music, hopefully someday I won’t just be jamming, but I will be actually playing precisely what I intended to. Thank you again

[@JensLarsen]

I suspect you will find that it can be useful to have an understanding of the scales and the notes in there along the way if you watn to play jazz and especially more modern stuff :)

[@Soul-OnFire]

Jens Larsen i couldn’t agree more. 👍it’s funny, the more I learn... the more I realize I need to learn. 😊

[@jeffreyfortney9180]

I had never heard of 7 position system, but there is much to explore. That's one of guitars alluring aspects.

[@DaveZnoise]

I learned my scales with the same 7 position system as well. Then later 3nps, then CAGED lots of overlap between all of them which I think was helpful. I also like looking at string pairs for visualization. I found the octave shells from the CAGED system one of the most valuable visualizations personally.

[@BrazenNL]

I started playing guitar with a teacher, and the books he used were those black Berklee books with the big colored number on it (1, 2 and 3). However, I cannot remember (I was 12 at the time) if that's where I picked it up. To answer your question, I use #1. I never questioned it so I never sought out something else.

[@JensLarsen]

Makes sense Charles! I have heard that it was in those berklee books, so probably that is where my teacher got it .

[@KieranGarland]

Very useful overview, thank you.

[@JensLarsen]

You're very welcome! 🙂

[@CrispySonOfA]

The guitar grimoire gives a lot of 3 NPS excersizes. I am grateful I learned those early on in my guitar journey. It's not one system to rule them all but whatever helps you relate the the neck, chords and position. Whatever doesn't feel good, practice that until it feels great and then practice more. Next time I'll tell you how to get to Carnegie hall.

[@ShineDawg]

I can't thank you enough, this is awesome and very generous of you I am using the material right now thank you very much your website is awesome by the way

[@JensLarsen]

You're very welcome! I am glad you find it useful!

[@shaunmcinnis566]

I had learned my modes in 7 positions similar to the first one you showed, only they were 3 notes per string. I find the shapes very helpful for long legato runs and to help Remember all the notes on the neck, as you tend to relate them in a linear way together ..Because rock and metal are mostly diatonic, the caged system is fantastic for arppegiating lead, but I think it starts to fall apart when you modify the shapes for 7ths etc..at least for me

[@ricdiclemente6616]

You can also call it 1st , 2nd and also 4th finger Zone System any mode can start any of these fingers in the Zone usually the third finger I find involves a more sliding experience.

[@GregoryPearsonMusic]

Mr. Larson, I like the ideas presented here - it seems like the 7 position system emphasizes the ability to really mine the gold out of a position when practicing - and maybe the need to shift is a lot less. And ultimately it seems we don't want to get tied to a system - the musical needs perhaps should guide the note pattern choices. One thing I was wondering about - in the Joe Pass Guitar method book, he shows a caged system but perhaps his is slightly different than other versions of the system? Perhaps you could comment on this.

[@JensLarsen]

I don't know what Joe Pass shows in his method, sorry 🙂

[@bennoel4703]

Thank you for the video! I find it really helpful that you show pros and cons of different systems. How did you decide in each pattern of the 7 pattern system if you want to play the 2 notes on the 3rd or 2nd string?

[@JensLarsen]

Glad it was helpful! I don't remember for sure anymore, but I guess it would be about not changing positions and having the most comfortable fingering (which may be personal as well)

[@DESIENASHOES]

I do play 7 position one-- Frank Gambale technique book style :-) and also scale fragment system

[@JensLarsen]

Great! How does Gambales system differ from these?

[@DESIENASHOES]

Jens Larsen it is 1:1 like your 7 positions but with 2 notes on the higher. String and 4 ones on the lowest one in descending for speed them up with sweep picking 🏎🏎🏎

[@hectoraguilar770]

Hi Jens Larsen. Thank you for your wonderful 7 scale system position. I'm gonna practice them all. Personally, I like all of them. You showed us the 5th system position. However, I just notice in the yellow chart with red dots (3:48), that the 6th position in the 5th string is wrong the 3rd finger red dot, according with the scale walking fingering system...but I get the hang of it. Thank you anyway. Greetings from Mexico!

[@JensLarsen]

Thanks Hector, yes there a few typos. The downloads on my site should have the right versions: jenslarsen.nl/pdf-downloads-charts/

[@YannGuillermou]

jenslarsen.nl/major-scale-7-positions-berklee-system/ to be more precise, there's even a highlight of the root :)

[@raskolnikov1873]

Great video! There is another option that I came across about a year ago which is an adaptation of the 3nps system. It's called the double note system, and it's laid out in a book called Fretboard Concepts by Yiannis Papadopoulos. It uses the 3nps shapes. However, the key difference is that the shapes are kept vertical by utilizing a double note on the second and third strings. It's kind of like the best of both worlds because the chord shapes are easy to see, the patterns are vertical which makes them easier to visualize, and because it's 3nps you can flat out shred!

[@anthonygarciaguitar]

Love this video. One thing to consider it you are a multi-style multi-guitar instrumentalist having different systems for different instruments can be tricky. I play more classical guitar (and improvisation/composition) than electric and jazz but I love both. So I like the CAGE (M3 stretches on the classical are tough - or better put - put more wear and tear on the hands) but I don't use purely as scale shapes rather just guide as the where the notes are then create/compose new shapes. But love this 7 pos system just another great way to know your fretboard.

[@JensLarsen]

You're very welcome! I am glad you like it! 🙂

[@deldia]

In an emergency I sometimes use one string and visualise the piano white keys with the groups of 2 and 3 black notes/gaps along one string.

[@JensLarsen]

Do you have a lot of emergency guitar performances? 😀

[@toddshockley]

I have emergency guitar performances whenever I’ve eaten too much of an edible.

[@billjazznblues]

Can I throw another viewpoint into the mix? If you imagine a guitar with many more than six strings, then every major scale can be produced from only one fingering pattern. The pattern repeats itself as you go across the strings, with a position shift happening every time there is a move from an interval of a fourth to that of a third, as in from third to second string in a six string guitar. You may have to shift back a fret from time to time, but this soon becomes automatic. In fact I am no longer aware of even doing this, it is so natural. Using one finger per fret, numbering the fingers as usual, we have the following pattern: 1,2,4; 1,2,4; 1,3,4; 1,3,4; 2,4; 1,2,4; 1,2,4; 1,3,4; 1,3,4; 2,4; 1,2,4; 1,2,4; ... Start anywhere and you get the major sale produced. For example to produce C major at the 7th position, the well known scale, the pattern is (1),2,4; 1,2,4; 1,3,4; 1,3,4; 2,4; 1,2,(4) To play G mixolydian the fifth mode of C major in the second position, the pattern is: 2,4; 1,2,4; 1,2,4; 1,3,4; 1,3,4; 2,(4) This produces every mode of any major scale, including fragments. You can think of this as having a 6 string cutout or template which you move across the many-stringed guitar, until the pattern you want to start with is in the right position, then just play the pattern. Of course over time, the whole fingerboard becomes a total scale, and you can move around freely without really bothering about positions, but it is another way to look at it to get started. Very interesting video Jens, so you do not use economy picking? ;-)

[@JensLarsen]

Yes that is also a way to arrive at the CAGED fingerings I guess. I find that in general you don't want rely on a system that constructs the scales if you also want to use it in real time and know what you are playing, but people are different of course. I use economy picking a lot, but not as a system since it limits the phrasing for jazz quite a lot.

[@billjazznblues]

Jens Larsen Thanks for your response Jens. Like you, I started playing classical music, but on the piano, and still play to this day. I also play saxophone so when I started playing guitar I had no idea of position playing or patterns, just notes on the fingerboard. Later in life when I took up jazz guitar again after over 30 years break we had access to all the resources of the Internet, as well as incredible books on guitar (Mickey Baker and George van Eps were the only ones I had heard of in the 60s). Unlike the piano and saxophone, the guitar has a multitude of places to play any given note, and also for phrases, so it can be a bit overwhelming till you are confident of your ability to play what you want. Systems, position playing and even picking techniques get you to know the guitar. After that it is a bit like Bird said “Learn the changes then forget about them and just play.” I find this much easier on my soprano sax than on guitar but am working on it. :-)

[@JensLarsen]

Just keep at it! Playing a phrase in as many places as you can is a great way to train all of this! I am glad you like the videos!

[@dougkearns]

Prokopis Skordis has developed a method for teaching this approach that's worth checking out. His channel is called EffectiveMusicPractice.

[@martinmacedo9091]

I've been using this system myself for a few years. It has two features I really like:1) A given scale tone will always be played by one of two fingers. For example the 3rd degree is always with finger 1 or 3. I've gotten really used to this feel where there is a certain mind, ear, finger connection that has developed.2) If you get used to sliding the 4th scale degree, which will be played by finger 2 or 4 up two frets, you can continue the scale in the next position. This is actually just connecting the two tetrachords that occur in a major scale. You can repeat these slides as many as 3 times going up the six strings, resulting in very nice repeating patterns:(1),2,4; 1,2-2,4; 1,2,4; 1,2-2,4; 1,2,4; 1,2-2,4or(1,3)4; 1,3,4-4; 1,3,4: 1,3,4-4; 1,3,4; 1,3,4-4(These patterns could start as well from the 5th string, omitting the last slide.)

[@SteveGilson]

As you know they all kind of melt together, the more you play, but I tend to be more CAGED like when I'm thinking Pentatonically and more 3nps when I speed up. One advantage to 3nps is that everything is very systematic, which means that all kinds of useful principles pop out. That's what I was trying to point out in my "Deep Dive in to 3nps" series. I find that can be really useful when you first try to memorise the shapes.

[@JensLarsen]

Yes, the systematic aspect of 3NPS is interesting. I didn't really realize until recently.