Making the Call on a Suspected Bad Module is Never Easy

Full Video is here • EVP Sensor Open 5v Ref...
(EVP Sensor Open 5v Reference Circuit)
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Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC.

[@williamgagnonroadboxservice]

Thank you Danner I use these small clips to show my students how to keep it simple..

[@StationRussification]

I have replaced so many engine controllers for so many reasons I can't even count. Regardless of how confident I was in any diagnosis, I crossed my fingers every time. Actually I do remember 1 that comes to mind, it was a 1989 colt wagon with the new multi port fuel injection, it wasn't a Vista & I forget what the vehicle was actually called, anyhow it had a dead miss on 1 cyl. & with a paper clip in the Engine Controller Wire Conector, I was able to jump a good cyl. with the dead 1, it was prior in the FO,,, it ran good enough to let the customer take it till they shipped us a new unit from Japan, the good old days.

[@dil6969]

This is really well-edited and concise and is a great refresher on one way you can test for a bad module. Oddly enough, bad modules seem more common in newer cars versus the very rudimentary ECMs you'd find in anything prior to the mid-2000s. Perhaps its just because there are so many modules in modern cars, increasing the odds you'll encounter a bad one. I recall a bad BCM on an almost-new Fiat 500X was the root cause of the vehicle throwing itself into park and engaging the rear parking brake, even while the vehicle was in motion (yikes). It took our master tech days of poking around before he was finally comfortable making that call because it seems to always be the first thing the inexperienced suspect is bad. That issue never returned, thankfully.

[@ScannerDanner]

Thank you! Some of my regular viewers are not a fan because this is a voice over and I'm new to doing them. Glad to hear you liked it! I'm using these to point others to the main video this was pulled from, but some people are just not getting that message.

[@frugalprepper]

Just solder on a new 5v ref jumper wire and send it on its way. I will last till it goes to the big parking lot in the sky.

[@khalidacosta7133]

Yep, a buck converter & relay seems a lot cheaper than an ECU... but I guess it's not the "proper" fix though. 100% it's what I would do in my own car!

[@nickl3872]

Great presentation pauli've been around forever the knowledge has always been there but your video quality has really came along

[@ScannerDanner]

Thank you! That would be my son Caleb behind the scenes.

[@signalcar]

In my constant search to improve my knowledge in diagnosis, I ended up finding this channel and since then it has been a dive into the well of knowledge, extremely grateful for all the knowledge shared. Greetings from Brazil!

[@ScannerDanner]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate this comment. I've been an instructor for over 20 years and a tech for over 30. Welcome!

[@wires4auto]

Great video, some advanced use of multimeter skills ❤

[@InsideOfMyOwnMind]

Perfectly presented, perfectly clear. This one was all about putting the fundamentals to work.

[@jimkillen1065]

I always appreciate your videos and advice..i always recommend your channel as a great resource thanks

[@DJ-tn7vj]

Yup making the call can be a painful one if incorrect. But yeah when you are correct

[@rhkips]

"Are you thousands of dollars sure?" I would add to that, "Are you thousands of dollars sure you can even get to the module to test it?" These older cars grace us with their ease of access. I've run into so many situations where the module I need to test is not feasibly accessible, or even worse, cannot be tested live, as accessing it requires removing it from the circuit (Hello Lincoln Nautilus/Ford Edge). Knowing how to work with these older vehicles is critical to being able to work on newer vehicles. We as technicians have to be able to paint a masterpiece based off the equivalent of a distracted child's classroom doodle. Seeing that TPS right there, my brain immediately wants to grab a backprobe jumper and leech the 5V ref to see if it fixes the car. If it does, quick visual for heat and vibration, tug test as close to the PCM as I can get, and call the PCM with my fingers crossed. From all too recent an experience, calling an $8,000 headlight AND two $1,500+ headlight modules on a $300,000 2023 Mercedes G63 with no service info is scary as heck. But hey, I just tell the shop "If I'm wrong, just blame Paul! He taught me everything!" LOL

[@ScannerDanner]

🤣 nice!

[@youutartur1104]

I fix BMWs. 9/10 its the module. Haha! But thanks to you I get it right every time. Love you danner.

[@Pablo_Automotive]

Thanks again Paul

[@keithglynn9237]

Re: Greetings from North Jersey, Update for my daughter's 2003 Honda CRV : The issue with the very advanced ignition timing is ok now after replacing the VTEC spool up solenoid , and the awful rattle/ pinging was also caused by a fa

[@keithglynn9237]

Failing intake cam actuator. After replacing those the car runs great and idles smooth. I should also add that the belt tensioner arm was also worn and would make a knocking sound when loading the engine with the power steering or turning on the a/c. As for reading individual cylinder ignition timing, no my mistake. It only displays cyl 1 ignition timing. I was looking at multiple things and being overtired I must have been hallucinating. My bad. Anyway, thanks for your response and maybe this can help someone else with a similar issue.

[@pierre-yveslavigne9688]

Just Wow watching that

[@Phantomas2011]

Excellent video Paul THANK YOU!!! That hits the spot 😀👊 BTW Good exciting news, the vacuum reservoir that feeds the EGR Control solenoid is leaking 😅 I’ll fix it and will touch bases with you, wanted to thank you again for all the help and info from before on how to test the components 🙏👊

[@careyautorepairs]

Adding this to my playlist.

[@M4sterT3ch]

Beautiful diag

[@IamReadyToRock]

Easy. From Peru. Thnks

[@robertmedina6875]

Great job, Paul and Caleb! I love the video!😊

[@LuisRodriguez-qg8ci]

Awesome man can’t get enough keep them coming!!😊

[@warrencash]

"A test light is a mechanics best friend" 👌

[@guzzimon61]

I have been lead down the garden path with the fancy test lights. I use the simple bulb test light 99+ % of the time. Tried and true.

[@nancylewis7142]

Love this info.

[@timothyball3144]

Yep. Made that call yesterday on a $1700 circuit board. Tested it every which way and saw a bad signal coming out of the board. The board is the only thing that can generate that signal, so I called it. Now I know exactly where to go if I see that symptom again. But here's my conumdrum: I spent an hour and a half testing this. If I find it again, it will take me five minutes to test. I should bill an hour, but when the customer is standing there and sees me spend five minutes then bill him an hour, that always feels kinda sketch.

[@ScannerDanner]

To make less money the better you get at something is ridiculous. Stop charging for this type of work by the time spent. Set a price for diag work and stick to it. When I was a mobile diag tech, the garages I worked for understood my fees and it was the same whether it took me 5 minutes of 60 minutes. They also understood that I was charging more if we go over 60 minutes. All negotiated and agreed upon up front. The next time you see this issue, you don't say, "oh, I've seen this before, no charge" that's ridiculous! If they don't want to pay for your expertise they can go elsewhere, period

[@timothyball3144]

@@ScannerDanner I try to do this, but often fail. I won't die rich, but I'll have happy customers. Lol.

[@ScannerDanner]

@@timothyball3144 you can have both a happy customer and a profitable shop that can afford to pay the A level techs, that end up keeping the customers happy! Billing appropriately is where it starts

[@timothyball3144]

@ScannerDanner I agree that billing appropriately is definitely important, but I feel that communication is where it starts. And don't forget context. Pn this genie basket lift, it's better to spend a couple of Benjamin's on troubleshooting than twice that because the problem caused you to tear down a newly built wall.

[@ScannerDanner]

@@timothyball3144 100% on all fronts

[@mostlymoparih5682]

Good stuff Professor.

[@paulspeller968]

oh yes in my time i have had some sweaty palms calling modules . knowing your fundamentals is a key part something i think can be lacking in a techs arsenal. if you don’t know how it works you are on a sticky wicket. particularly if you have to eat it if you get it wrong 😱😱😱

[@christopherc3017]

I work on Fox bodies with the eec iv and you do a better job explaining the open or short 5v reference. You make something as simple as a loose ground causing issues sound simple vs when I explain it.

[@Tech-28]

Oh no danner’s been taken over by A.I 😂

[@DMcnatt-74]

Can we delete a ignition immobilizer from 2004 Toyota sequoia

[@amarabdelli487]

Great video

[@randyburciaga4086]

I have an 06 lexus is250 that for the past year has a no crank no start issue when the engine is warm, replaced a plethora of things. Whats your opinion?

[@stevegorkowski3246]

Open the case and troubleshoot the problem and find out the failure. Paying so much money for an electronic board is crazy. This is the down side of board swapping!

[@Portuguese-linguica]

Paul had to resubscribe to you . For some reason KZbin keeps unsubscribing me to certain channels .

[@ScannerDanner]

Welcome back! Not sure why thats happening, that's weird

[@Portuguese-linguica]

@@ScannerDanner thank you . Hope you have a great day.

[@RR-bt5xv]

Any plans on another book?

[@ScannerDanner]

Not at this time. All of my newer stuff like wideband O2s and GDI injection is all in video form on my website. We've even added diesel content! Hope to see you there www.scannerdanner.com/join-scannerdanner-premium.html

[@everytoolashammer9427]

EGR delete, problem solved 😊

[@hotrodpaully1]

So someone with that old of car probably has little money. So since they usually are shared inside the computer what do you feel about giving the customer the option of putting in a permanent or temporary external jumper

[@ScannerDanner]

In this case, that's what it got. A permanent "temporary" fix 🙂

[@mekkibilal1372]

Is snap on multimeter is good for measuring???

[@ScannerDanner]

Any multimeter is good for measuring

[@wyattoneable]

Outstanding.

[@gt3tunecl725]

That is a Pull up control style?

[@ScannerDanner]

This was a ground side switched ouput control circuit. We use the terms pull-up and pull-down on input circuits. Thanks!

[@joopterwijn]

To call the bad module is one thing,… knowing how it died is the question. If the unit is $1000+ you do not want it replaced and pronounced dead again….

[@ScannerDanner]

100%

[@davidmonier3761]

bonjour danner what is the reference and brand of the control tool you use to check the connector plugs thank you

[@ScannerDanner]

This was a torch tip cleaner

[@davidmonier3761]

thank you very much danner david de france@@ScannerDanner

[@jeffaddair]

Is that a torch cleaner you're using to probe the connector?

[@ScannerDanner]

Yes

[@oldsrocket5688]

Anyone here know a reputable place to get an ECM remanned for a 2008 chevy LMM duramax? Figured this might not be a bad place to ask.

[@lanwickum]

Consider a cheap fix and putting the external jumper in place? It is an older car.... No parts needed, just some time and a wire. I don't like those fixes, but....

[@calholli]

It's not related to an EGR.. But I have a 2010 Dodge nitro and my accel pedal keeps dropping out every 3 to 6 seconds in a consistent down pulse. It just drops out and comes right back--- over and over. As you know there are 2 sensors in the accel pedal. I pulled the connector under the dash, at the pedal: and applied voltage to my (APP 2) accel sensor wire (through an LED test light) and it jumps to 5v on the scan tool.. and still drops out: So I know it's not the pedal. So I did some continuity tests - tracing that APP2 sense wire to the computer... and I disconnected the connector at the PCM and (with the key on) applied that same power DIRECTLY to the APP2 pin on the PCM and it shows high (5v) on the scan tool-- just as it would if I was holding the pedal to the floor (which is unhooked at this time). So I'm just simulating holding the pedal down by applying power to the pin on the PCM (through an LED testlight)--- and it STILL drops out every few seconds.. So I know for a fact that the issue is internal to the computer. It will start and drive but after a block or two it will throw the "lightening bolt" warning light on the dash and go into limp mode (due to the discrepancy between the two Accel signals in the PCM).. But strangely, it doesn't trigger any codes?? If I just cycle the key (off and back on again) --- it will reset the 'lightening bolt" warning light and start and run as normal. ?? But again, it's so consistently dropping out that it will go into limp mode without a few blocks again, and I just have to keep cycling the key to make it home. Have you ever heard of this? I talked to a Dodge PCM repair guy, and he said it's likely not repairable/ because it's likely the main processor? I guess I can check powers and grounds for the PCm- but otherwise, I guess I just have to buy another one. :( Should I open up the PCM and check for cracked solder joints maybe? Should I bake it in an oven and see if it reflows? lol.. I've seen people fix GPU's on PC's by doing this. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks brother

[@orlanmedina3693]

Im having similar issues with my BMW 2007 335i it's on limp mode due to the computer doesn't see a returning voltage from the pedal but pedal voltage varies just fine when you press it. It shows 0 voltage no matter the position and wire integrity is fine. Measured voltages at the computer's plug and its all good 5v out and the variable voltage from the pedal in just as ot should but the ECM doesn't see the signal. I opened and saw nothing wrong also put it on direct sun light to heat up the case and nothing. An other thing makes me think about the ECU is that i parked it for about 2 months or so without starting but with a battery charger/maintainer and did a throttle reset and the thing ran flawlessly for like 30 miles after a hard pull it started failing again and havent been able to sort it out

[@ScannerDanner]

You're going to hate this, but the APP 2 signal on Chrysler/Dodge systems will show drop outs that are not really there. It is normal. I have a case study on this where I chased my tail too. I mentioned in my video that I believed it to be a Snap-On thing, as that was the scanner I was using, but I can't remember if other scan tools reported that b.s. data too. Looking for that video now

[@calholli]

@@ScannerDanner That's good news then... I don't want to buy a computer anyway. :) So maybe it's just the pedal possibly? All I know is that it goes into limp mode within a block or two of driving--- yet it doesn't leave any codes. ??? Only gives the flashing "lightening bolt" warning light on the dash.. I put in a cheap throttle body a few years ago for this same issue after it froze and broke a gear inside.. But it left codes when that happened. This isn't leaving a code, so I'm not exactly sure what it is yet. I live in Oklahoma, or I would bring it to you for a video.

[@ScannerDanner]

@@calholli there has to be a code for it to go into any type of limp mode. Are you using a scanner that can scan all modules?

[@calholli]

@@ScannerDanner Yes.. I used an x431 Pro .. and also an xtool D8. I asked bing's AI: "What is the lightening bolt warning light in a dodge" and this is the response: The “lightning bolt” warning light on the dashboard of a Dodge Nitro is an indicator for the Electronic Throttle Control (ETC) system1. When this light comes on, it means there’s a problem with the ETC system2. ***In some cases, when the light comes on, the temperature gauge reads cold and doesn’t move to warm as you drive1. This could be related to the thermostat or a coolant temperature sensor1. A P2181 code, which recommends a new thermostat, might appear when the light is read1. ................................ I didn't realize that coolant issues could be related to the ETC flashing warning? I thought that warning was only specifically for a throttle loop issue (pedal/throttle body/ PCM). That was a bad assumption on my part. Wow, what a relief. I guess it makes sense that a limp mode would take over the throttle control. (duh lol). And it has been having coolant issues for a bit and leaking coolant from the weep hole--- Maybe there's a secondary temp gauge that only goes to the computer and it's freaking out about the coolant issue (or malfunctioning)? I was already going to fix this anyway-- I had already ordered a pump and it just came in today. But we have driven it for a month or two without any issues.. so that's why I didn't think it was related. Again-- It hasn't left any coolant codes? I keep it full, even though it has been leaking recently. It hasn't overheated at all; at least not on the dash gauge.. To be fair, I never had the scanner hooked up while the ETC warning light was on.. Because like I said, if you cycle the key, it all resets / no more ETC light / no more limp mode / and it doesn't leave a code. I'll drive it with the scan tool hooked up next time and scan for codes while the ETC warning is flashing and it's in limp mode -- if it happens again. I'll get this pump and thermostat installed and get the coolant buttoned up and see if the issue goes away; hopefully the computer isn't going haywire for some weird reason and it's just the coolant issue. Sorry for the verbose response. I'll keep it short if I respond again. That APP2 signal dropping really sent me down a rabbit hole. Thanks for the help; you 100% saved me from buying a computer.

[@orlanmedina3693]

And how do you know how many 5V reference circuits are in a ECU? I'm currently dealing with a 2007 BMW 335i that has codes for the pedal and throttle valve and also one code for DME failure and the issue is that the DME does not sees the 5V returning(variable) frok the pedal but it's sending 5V and the pedal is sending the variable voltage back to the DME but the DME does not sees it... And BMW ain't cheap

[@ScannerDanner]

If you have 5v available to those sensors, why are you questioning the 5v ref circuit?

[@orlanmedina3693]

@@ScannerDanner I'm not just why the ECU doesn't sees the returning voltage. But like u said it's hard to call a ECU

[@keithglynn9237]

Hi Guys, greetings from northern New Jersey ! I know how busy you are and this might be a waste of your time (but it is a good challenge) if you are interested, my daughter's 2003 Honda crv has advanced ignition timing ONLY on cylinder 1 according to my cut rate scan tool live data. I cannot get the timing to back off as it causes pinging upon acceleration and is becomming quite annoying and concerning to me. There is no distributor on this engine but a shop in Texas replaced the knock sensor which yielded no improvement. I went as far as turning the engine to tdc, lining up the marks on the cams to make sure the timing chain isnt stretched or jumped...it's spot on. No codes or lights, crank and cam sensors seem to read ok. Any ideas ? Thanks

[@ScannerDanner]

That's weird. So your scan tool shows you timing advance for each individual cylinder? I'd probably ignore that and focus more on cam and crank signals as that would be part of the program (to adjust individual timing). So focusing on your inputs that the ECM is using to adjust that is key. In some material I've read over the years, timing is done on an individual cylinder level to achieve a smooth idle speed and cylinder to cylinder contribution. So maybe that cylinder is weak? Maybe check compression on each cylinder too and compare? That'd be the direction I'd go next.

[@keithglynn9237]

Thanks for the quick response. Yes, the scan tool shows cyl 1 ignition timing advanced more than the other three cyls. I cleaned all of the crank, ex cam, and intake cam position sensors, including pulling the valve cover, rolling the engine over by hand a few times to make sure the cams were in time with the crank and they are spot on. Another idea might be the vtect spool up solenoid. I'm wondering if that has an input for timing because it has an oil pressure pressure switch (transducer ?) on the same switch manifold...I have more digging to do. The weather is about to turn here with a snow storm comming so this might take me a bit. If I somehow catch and correct this issue right away, I will let you know what I found. Again, thanks. I wish I had a neighbor or one of my friends that I could converse with like you. Everyone seems to be non interested in anything mechanical or electrical, or any trade these days. This is not good.

[@anthonynicholls9415]

👍👍

[@fascistpedant758]

You've been talking funny in the past two videos. Is Caleb holding you hostage? Say reedlestatle valve three times in the next video if you want us to send help.

[@smc9764]

lol, I was thinking the same. Sounds like a lecture for class and not in the field Danner.

[@ScannerDanner]

It was a voice over to promote a video, both times! So yes, I'm reading a script. Not sure why it's so shocking

[@sj501]

Play it x 1.25 speed… back to normal

[@JayTekPerth]

It's called a joke you absolute square​@@ScannerDanner